D/P thief, has any1 realised?

[eagles.6380]

So most thieves playing s/d atm, which is just meh and i find very boring to play, skill 3 and steal is the main rotation lul.

every1 is talking about d/p coming back when firebrand gets nerf, Okay but,

Has any1 realised that along with all the nerfs d/p got in terms of daredevil etc, SKILL RANGE NO LONGER CHANGES WITH CAMERA ANGLE, u cant even sneaky stealth with blinding powder and heartseaker anymore, if you try to do it now, just feels clunky and you will most likely hit someone with how far heartseaker jumps especially if ur in a situation where u need stealth quickly in a fight.

I say anet makes backstab unblockable, i mean it is called 'BACKSTAB', you shouldnt be able to block it.. any other ideas?

[Sindrener.1592]

How many times per game do you actually stack stealth with heartseeker as dp thief? Not very often, and even then how often do you do 4x? Even less. You can still do 3 long ones

[Alatar.7364]

Yeah, I think pretty much any Thief is well aware of that.

As of Backstab; I am not sure about it being unblockable, the Idea has been around for quite a while but maybe its DMG is high enough for it to justify being blockable. Yet, like you say "backstab" does sound like something that you can't block.Not really sure what to think about it. Even thought it is annoying sometimes, so far I did well without it too.

[eagles.6380]

Sind i get your point, but it just feels clunky now, i watch your stream alot but nonetheless when playing d/p there are many a clutch moment of stealth near teamfights trying to miss aeo's by turning camera down,

So even if they nerf fb, do you guys think d/p is fine as it is?

[Alatar.7364]

@eagles.6380 said:

So even if they nerf fb, do you guys think d/p is fine as it is?

Yes

[Turk.5460]

I can't speak for sPvP, but in WvW I don't see a difference at all. I stopped using the camera trick after HoT came out and we were given Bounding Dodger. I never really need to stack stealth when I was right next to enemies. Its not often that I cannot move a few hundred units away and BP+HS/Bound/HS/Bound. If there is an enemy Thief nearby then I limit my stealth stacking to 2 leaps, as an aware Thief will just SS into the BP.

[Vallun.2071]

@eagles.6380 said:

I say anet makes backstab unblockable, i mean it is called 'BACKSTAB', you shouldnt be able to block it.. any other ideas?

Whether or not the flavor of the skill makes sense like that, its counter-intuitive to class balance. The counter to a thief going in stealth is to dodge or block when you think they will open on you, so blocking a backstab is completely skillful and reactive, also you can just hide your back to a wall, but generally the thief in stealth has to play around blocks and evades and you even have basi for an unblockable backstab every minute.

That being said the issue with D/P is not that backstab isnt unblockable or that you can't stack as much stealth as before (which is arguably irrelevant because 3 stacks already depletes most of your initiative and using the short heartseekers makes you more susceptible to counterplay). Rather its that firebrand is too hard to outnumber and D/P thief is arguably the worst meta build for 1v1ing, so it really relies on its team to be useful and to rotate properly. S/D thief can get things done without teammates so its just more reliable in an unreliable environment. I don't think D/P thief should be buffed i just think larcenous strike should be nerfed a little bit. At the moment theres really no decision making in S/D gameplay because larcenous is just by far the best investment of skill usage.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Vallun.2071 said:

@eagles.6380 said:

I say anet makes backstab unblockable, i mean it is called 'BACKSTAB', you shouldnt be able to block it.. any other ideas?

Whether or not the flavor of the skill makes sense like that, its counter-intuitive to class balance. The counter to a thief going in stealth is to dodge or block when you think they will open on you, so blocking a backstab is completely skillful and reactive, also you can just hide your back to a wall, but generally the thief in stealth has to play around blocks and evades and you even have basi for an unblockable backstab every minute.

That being said the issue with D/P is not that backstab isnt unblockable or that you can't stack as much stealth as before (which is arguably irrelevant because 3 stacks already depletes most of your initiative and using the short heartseekers makes you more susceptible to counterplay). Rather its that firebrand is too hard to outnumber and D/P thief is arguably the worst meta build for 1v1ing, so it really relies on its team to be useful and to rotate properly. S/D thief can get things done without teammates so its just more reliable in an unreliable environment. I don't think D/P thief should be buffed i just think larcenous strike should be nerfed a little bit. At the moment theres really no decision making in S/D gameplay because larcenous is just by far the best investment of skill usage.

Most good Thieves don’t just spam FS/LS it’s a trap to do that, it can work alot of the time against bads and sometimes vs semi competent players but overall it’s on of the worst things to do kinda like seeing HS spammers.

[Vallun.2071]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Most good Thieves don’t just spam FS/LS it’s a trap to do that, it can work alot of the time against bads and sometimes vs semi competent players but overall it’s on of the worst things to do kinda like seeing HS spammers.

Right but spamming heartseeker is objectively bad in most situations except when enemy less than threshold of hp and not able to react. However larcenous is always the optimal play if it lands. Good thieves will bait dodges and blinds with autos and dancing dagger, but I would argue thats more just using your larcenous strikes more effectively than someone who spams it. In the end it still has too much value on it, you should have to choose whether you want boon rip, evade, or damage, not all in one.

[eagles.6380]

but if you nerfed larcenous strike, thief would pretty much go out of meta, as u said d/p just doesn't quite cut it atm

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Vallun.2071 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Most good Thieves don’t just spam FS/LS it’s a trap to do that, it can work alot of the time against bads and sometimes vs semi competent players but overall it’s on of the worst things to do kinda like seeing HS spammers.

Right but spamming heartseeker is objectively bad in most situations except when enemy less than threshold of hp and not able to react. However larcenous is always the optimal play if it lands. Good thieves will bait dodges and blinds with autos and dancing dagger, but I would argue thats more just using your larcenous strikes more effectively than someone who spams it. In the end it still has too much value on it, you should have to choose whether you want boon rip, evade, or damage, not all in one.

Well the Evade is part of the first skill not the Second since it’s a two part skill it’s not all loaded into one so Say Larcenous Strike is a Evade High Damage Boon ripping skill that is overloaded is very disingenuous, there are clear delays in between being able to use Flanking Strike and Larcenous Strike, Larcenous is only a high Damage when opponent has no boons on them otherwise it is average Damage, it isn’t an overloaded skill since you described two separate skills with two separate costs and two separate cast times that do two separate things, and then there is the fact to unlock Larcenous Strike use you have to land Flanking Strike.

[Vallun.2071]

@BlaqueFyre.5678Ok so your argument is that larcenous strike is not by far the strongest skill on the S/D set because it is tied to flanking strike which comes at certain costs (though i wouldn't say too much now that its unblockable and can be used independently as a decent skill itself). But my argument is even with all of the costs of having it tied to another skill, it is still too much value for how little cost it has. I'm not trying to say that larcenous has no counterplays, I'm saying that for balance reasons it needs to be nerfed.

[Vallun.2071]

mind you this is on a build that has 2 steals which rip 6 boons (not competing for animation time with larcenous), and spammable larcenous for ripping of 2 boons each, and then a 7k larcenous number to top it off. All i'm saying is they need to lower the damage a little so that it gives you more incentive to use autos or even cloak and dagger stealth attack for damage and then use larcenous when you need a little damage and also boon rip. Choices not predetermined rotations

[kash.9213]

Spammable Larcenous Strike? Sure I'll have one please.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Vallun.2071 said:mind you this is on a build that has 2 steals which rip 6 boons (not competing for animation time with larcenous), and spammable larcenous for ripping of 2 boons each, and then a 7k larcenous number to top it off. All i'm saying is they need to lower the damage a little so that it gives you more incentive to use autos or even cloak and dagger stealth attack for damage and then use larcenous when you need a little damage and also boon rip. Choices not predetermined rotations

Lowering the damage won't give people any incentive to use autos etc, it'll just knock the weaponset out of the meta just like it was BEFORE they buffed larcenous strike. If you want people to have an incentive to use the other skills, buff them so they're worth using.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Vallun.2071 said:mind you this is on a build that has 2 steals which rip 6 boons (not competing for animation time with larcenous), and spammable larcenous for ripping of 2 boons each, and then a 7k larcenous number to top it off. All i'm saying is they need to lower the damage a little so that it gives you more incentive to use autos or even cloak and dagger stealth attack for damage and then use larcenous when you need a little damage and also boon rip. Choices not predetermined rotations

Spammable? Again Flanking Strike is a thing you have to land before you can even cast Larcenous, let’s not forget you said Larcenous Strike is an Evade...

You are tryin to make Larcenous Strike sound very OP by trying to lump multiple skills into Larcenous Strike saying it’s overloaded when all LS when you have access to it only does damage(a chunk of which is conditional) and rips 2 boons. You heard it here first form Vallun, Larcenous Strike is Overloaded with effects(2), he also claims it’s an Evade.

[Vallun.2071]

Not sure what your point even is. You think larcenous strike is completely fine? Even considering the original argument was made to compare S/D to D/P and a specific skill like backstab, which I said was fair because it was completely counterplayable (and even further not spammable because of the icd they put on stealth attacks). Now when I say that one build completely revolves around one skill because it is endowed too much power in comparison to the others, you don't even address my point and just say larcenous strike has counterplay to it.

You even say that one of its compnents is conditional, but on a build with the most boon rip in the game that component is only conditional on the fact of you actually landing steal. So your argument is that bad thieves will be bad at spamming larcenous and good thieves will be good at spamming larcenous. Thats still spamming larcenous because its overpowered. And let's not conflate spamming a skill with mindlessly mashing it. Of course you should time your skills, but it doesn't change the fact that larcenous is very broken overpowered. It is literally why S/D is viable right now. You have a spammable damaging skill which allows you to win 1v1s while D/P has front loaded burst which cant be followed through with if the enemy kites intelligently. Do I want S/D to not be viable? No, what I'm saying is larcenous strike is broken and if they want S/D to be viable they should actually design things well instead of just massively boost numbers.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Vallun.2071 said:Not sure what your point even is. You think larcenous strike is completely fine? Even considering the original argument was made to compare S/D to D/P and a specific skill like backstab, which I said was fair because it was completely counterplayable (and even further not spammable because of the icd they put on stealth attacks). Now when I say that one build completely revolves around one skill because it is endowed too much power in comparison to the others, you don't even address my point and just say larcenous strike has counterplay to it.

You even say that one of its compnents is conditional, but on a build with the most boon rip in the game that component is only conditional on the fact of you actually landing steal. So your argument is that bad thieves will be bad at spamming larcenous and good thieves will be good at spamming larcenous. Thats still spamming larcenous because its overpowered. And let's not conflate spamming a skill with mindlessly mashing it. Of course you should time your skills, but it doesn't change the fact that larcenous is very broken overpowered. It is literally why S/D is viable right now. You have a spammable damaging skill which allows you to win 1v1s while D/P has front loaded burst which cant be followed through with if the enemy kites intelligently. Do I want S/D to not be viable? No, what I'm saying is larcenous strike is broken and if they want S/D to be viable they should actually design things well instead of just massively boost numbers.

Most Boon rip ingame? Nah pretty sure Scourge Can match the stripping of boons just as easily if not more so.

You said Larcenous Strike is an Evade that deals high Damage and Rips boons, claiming it’s overloaded.

I guess you never said these words about Larcenous Strike?

@Vallun.2071 said:In the end it still has too much value on it, you should have to choose whether you want boon rip, evade, or damage, not all in one.

Well your claims are false it’s an Average Damage w/ the potential of slightly higher damage and a Boon Rip, show me where Larcenous Strike is an Evade, I will wait.

You keep claiming Larcenous Strike is Op and overloaded when it’s not, trying to lump in a plethora of skills and traits together to try and justify you claims.

The skill isn’t Overloaded or OP. You might want to learn what the skill actually does.

I’m just here to correct your blatant misinformation.

[Vallun.2071]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 All you're doing is pointing out that larcenous strike is tied to flanking strike and just keep going off the fact that I made it sound like larcenous has an evade when its really just closely tied to an evade. Ignoring every other point I made just to tunnel vision on one meme of larcenous strike being an evade. Potentially 7k dmg crits with 2 boon rips and unblockable are what larcenous strike has. You're still not proving that this isn't overloaded. I'm waiting for YOU to show me a skill that does more than this. Full-counter was nerfed already btw haHAA.

Also you say scourge has more boon rip but do you actually know what rips boons on scourge? If your argument is that scourge rips more AoE boons then sure, you're right, but that is irrelevant since larcenous is single target and will get the bonus of no boons just the same if your rip is single target. Quick maths for you. Steal rips 2 + 2 - 1 boons. I can meme too. All you've said is that the skill isn't OP, and defended that stance by saying that it isn't an evade. /thread

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Vallun.2071 said:@BlaqueFyre.5678 All you're doing is pointing out that larcenous strike is tied to flanking strike and just keep going off the fact that I made it sound like larcenous has an evade when its really just closely tied to an evade. Ignoring every other point I made just to tunnel vision on one meme of larcenous strike being an evade. Potentially 7k dmg crits with 2 boon rips and unblockable are what larcenous strike has. You're still not proving that this isn't overloaded. I'm waiting for YOU to show me a skill that does more than this. Full-counter was nerfed already btw haHAA.

Also you say scourge has more boon rip but do you actually know what rips boons on scourge? If your argument is that scourge rips more AoE boons then sure, you're right, but that is irrelevant since larcenous is single target and will get the bonus of no boons just the same if your rip is single target. Quick maths for you. Steal rips 2 + 2 - 1 boons. I can meme too. All you've said is that the skill isn't OP, and defended that stance by saying that it isn't an evade. /thread

No you didn’t elude to Flanking Strike being tied to a Larcenous you said Larcenous was an Evade, so again learn the skills and maybe you wouldn’t have to backpedal so much when people correct you, again Larcenous isn’t spammable since a) you have to land Flanking (if it doesn’t connect no Larcenous) b) If you Land Flanking that’s 4 Ini down then the 2 Ini for Larcenous so some quick maths for you 4+2 = 6, so 6 out of 12-15 Initiative that’s anywhere from over 1/3 to 1/2 Of the Thief’s Initiative.

So your claim that Skill that can only be available based on the condition of another skill hitting and having average damage if a condition is met is OP and Overloaded.

Again because it seems some people need all the help with understanding this as possible and don’t know what the skill actual does or how it is useable.

You need to a) Land Flanking Strike before they can even use Larcenous b) to deal Average Damage have the opponent have no boons(which a lot of the boons in game come from Passives and Instant casts and are spammed out on most classes). On top of the fact it costs over 1/3 to 1/2 Of the Thief’s Initiative.

So again it isn’t Op or an overloaded loaded skill, especially when it requires multiple conditions to be met to a) be used and b) do Average Damage.

It’s really easy to see when people trying to get things needed when they don’t even know how the skills work, fun fact it helps to be taken seriously when you know how Skills work when claiming op and calling for nerfs.

And Scourge single target and strip just as many boons if not more than Thief can the facts are out there.

[Turk.5460]

@Vallun.2071 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Most good Thieves don’t just spam FS/LS it’s a trap to do that, it can work alot of the time against bads and sometimes vs semi competent players but overall it’s on of the worst things to do kinda like seeing HS spammers.

Right but spamming heartseeker is objectively bad in most situations except when enemy less than threshold of hp and not able to react. However larcenous is always the optimal play if it lands. Good thieves will bait dodges and blinds with autos and dancing dagger, but I would argue thats more just using your larcenous strikes more effectively than someone who spams it. In the end it still has too much value on it, you should have to choose whether you want boon rip, evade, or damage, not all in one.

Your argument here sounds like you are incorporating FS and LS into one spammable move. Larcenous Strike is not spammable, as the whole chain takes 6 initiative and requires Flanking Strike to land. Most Thieves you see you can easily get into a Flanking Strike loop simply by dodging or juking it - which happens more often than not from what I hear and see.

[Vallun.2071]

So you are then saying that the 4 cost of initiative from flanking strike is an absolute cost to larcenous strike? Absolutely not, its an unblockable decently damaging skill with an evade tied to it, And if it misses you didn't waste 4 initiative. If you do land it, which it isn't that hard to land because of the fact that its unblockable and evades before it lands, making it hard to interrupt, then you can use larcenous strike. At this point you should be arguing that you have to land two consecutive attacks in a chain to land larcenous, but instead you focus more on that you have to land one "terrible skill" (which i just disproved) just to be able to use larcenous. They flow from one another very easily, and you can even bait people to dodge because they know larcenous proceeds flanking strike, then save it for a few seconds later after they dodged. This flexibility further undermines your argument that it being tied to another skill succeeding makes it balanced.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@"Vallun.2071" said:So you are then saying that the 4 cost of initiative from flanking strike is an absolute cost to larcenous strike? Absolutely not, its an unblockable decently damaging skill with an evade tied to it, And if it misses you didn't waste 4 initiative. If you do land it, which it isn't that hard to land because of the fact that its unblockable and evades before it lands, making it hard to interrupt, then you can use larcenous strike. At this point you should be arguing that you have to land two consecutive attacks in a chain to land larcenous, but instead you focus more on that you have to land one "terrible skill" (which i just disproved) just to be able to use larcenous. They flow from one another very easily, and you can even bait people to dodge because they know larcenous proceeds flanking strike, then save it for a few seconds later after they dodged. This flexibility further undermines your argument that it being tied to another skill succeeding makes it balanced.

Your whole argument revolves around it being an overloaded spammable skill, which we have proven it’s neither of those things, and yes since a player has to first Land Flanking Strike to even access let alone use Larcenous Strike you can tie Flanking Strikes Ini into the cost of Larcenous, but you can’t load Flankings Evade (like you have been doing)into Larcenous Since Larcenous doesn’t Evade and has its own 1/2 Second cast that is easily interrupted, and for Larcenous to do even Average Damage it has to have another condition to be met, in most situations when it’s available it will do mediocre damage and rip 2 boons , so please learns what skills do before trying to claim them to be OP and Overloaded.

And trying to claim player skill of baiting out Dodges makes a skill OP oh that is great, sorry you can’t tie player skill into claiming why a skill is OP and Overloaded that is not a game issue but player issue.

[Vallun.2071]

ok i clearly don't know what larcenous strike does even though ive been abusing it to demolish firebrand scourge combos in prime time daily ATs. I guess your argument is every monkey thief using S/D makes it balanced. My opinion is based on high level experience and proven results (i have plenty of videos of me playing S/D) and yours is based on the guy who comes into my chat and says "is dagger dagger thief still viable? i just came back to the game after 2 years" No Kappa

[Vallun.2071]

anyway I don't think it needs a massive nerf, just not 20% dmg on boonless targets, maybe 10% on boonless and its good

Also yes I think player skill issue should be involved in balance for sure. Wasn't Grim Patron Deck super OP in hearthstone but it wasnt nerfed for so long because ladder scrubs couldn't play it optimally and had average win rates, but in tournaments everyone was forced to learn the deck because everyone could play it at the top lvl