D/P thief, has any1 realised?

BlaqueFyre.5678 · January 12, 2018

@"Vallun.2071" said:ok i clearly don't know what larcenous strike does even though ive been abusing it to demolish firebrand scourge combos in prime time daily ATs. I guess your argument is every monkey thief using S/D makes it balanced. My opinion is based on high level experience and proven results (i have plenty of videos of me playing S/D) and yours is based on the guy who comes into my chat and says "is dagger dagger thief still viable? i just came back to the game after 2 years" No Kappa

You clearly don’t when your whole initial argument claiming it was OP because as you said larcenous Strike evades.... kappa. And what arguments did you destroy? Oh you mean you trying to lump everything from different skills into Larcenous and failed? Lulz

And no player skill or lack thereof doesn’t make a skill in game OP it just means one player knows how to play better.

Vallun.2071 · January 12, 2018

Remember when everyone thought mirage was terrible and chrono was still the best condi mes? Now mirage is op because player skill issue people learned how to play it (also somewhat the warrior nerf). So yes player skill definitely factors into whether or not something is balanced. Aren't you a rev main or something? Seems like you're just trolling at this point ignoring points i make to delay this EZ win.

BlaqueFyre.5678 · January 12, 2018

@Vallun.2071 said:Remember when everyone thought mirage was terrible and chrono was still the best condi mes? Now mirage is op because player skill issue people learned how to play it (also somewhat the warrior nerf). So yes player skill definitely factors into whether or not something is balanced. Aren't you a rev main or something? Seems like you're just trolling at this point ignoring points i make to delay this EZ win.

Nah you have no EZ win, remember you said No skill should have An Evade or High Damage when talking about Larcenous a Strike, well guess what you are in Luck Larcenous Strike has neither of those things.

And no only Helseth and a extremely small handful of people said Mirage was bad at PoF Launch then it was proven otherwise after it received bug fixes and buffs, hmm selective memory must be a real bad issue for some people.

Vallun.2071 · January 12, 2018

But how can best mesmer have a player skill issue :open_mouth:

BlaqueFyre.5678 · January 12, 2018

@Vallun.2071 said:But how can best mesmer have a player skill issue :open_mouth:

He may be the best Mesmer user but history proves he’s not the best Mesmer Build theroycrafter, and he said those before Mirage received bug fixes and buffs, something you seem to not understand. Oh this is too EZ

Vallun.2071 · January 12, 2018

I was joking my dude, at this point ur just memeing and using helseth to derail the main argument which is that you don't want larcenous strike nerfed because you havent made it passed bronze tier where thieves spam flanking strike into walls

BlaqueFyre.5678 · January 12, 2018

@Vallun.2071 said:I was joking my dude, at this point ur just memeing and using helseth to derail the main argument which is that you don't want larcenous strike nerfed because you havent made it passed bronze tier where thieves spam flanking strike into walls

Lulz, yep never made it past bronze tier evah! And you can’t seem to keep an argument straight, or know what skills do, remover to you larcenous Evades amd is High Damage!

kash.9213 · January 12, 2018

@Vallun.2071 said:anyway I don't think it needs a massive nerf, just not 20% dmg on boonless targets, maybe 10% on boonless and its good
Also yes I think player skill issue should be involved in balance for sure. Wasn't Grim Patron Deck super OP in hearthstone but it wasnt nerfed for so long because ladder scrubs couldn't play it optimally and had average win rates, but in tournaments everyone was forced to learn the deck because everyone could play it at the top lvl

Maybe in spvp that might not be a massive nerf, still seems like sparse connecting time though to make 20% overwhelming. In WvW chewing through all boons takes a few steps and traits all going off nearly at once, I think that 20% is a good payoff there. 10% boost against boonless might be fair in a way but not sure LS damage is enough of a factor for a change like that. I'd definitely bring that boost damage down if more than a few DE's game wide used s/d with rending shade but that's just not much of a thing and there's inherent drawbacks anyway. If the devs ever do bring that down to 10%, maybe refund a couple of initiative or something vs boonless targets.

omgdracula.6345 · January 12, 2018

What the hell is going on? can't we all just get along?

Dagger.2035 · January 13, 2018

It's weird that D/P thieves are asking for a S/D nerf to make themselves more viable. I haven't played PvP in a long time, but doesn't D/P still shutdown all other thieves if you are patient and play the plus one role. Also, wouldn't pushing S/D out of the meta just increase the number of Firebrands and Scourges and make things more difficult for D/P anyway?

caveman.5840 · January 13, 2018

i think it is super annoying how they changed the camera angle affecting the distance of heart seeker.because now that u cant change the distance and stay inside of the smoke it makes it so u can easily hit a target u where not aiming for and reveal your self specially in wvw and pve ,, for pvp I don't miss it to much, most the time I will just do the combo once and there is not nearly as many targets around for u to clip your self and get revealed ,,, but wvw and pve this change is just driving me crazy

it has been that way for ages y change it now lol no one even complains about thief anymore

Ario.8964 · January 13, 2018

What would help with s/d is to revert all of the changes done to it unnecessarily in the past so skill becomes a factor with the set. Make 3 cycle with each activation (doesn't require the first one to hit but the first one now doesn't need to be unblockable. 3 spamming for evades also disappears). Initiative costs can be tweaked if deemed inappropriate but now 3 spam is less effective for those spamming it and the set is more in control of the user.

TwiceDead.1963 · January 14, 2018

@"Ario.8964" said:What would help with s/d is to revert all of the changes done to it unnecessarily in the past so skill becomes a factor with the set. Make 3 cycle with each activation (doesn't require the first one to hit but the first one now doesn't need to be unblockable. 3 spamming for evades also disappears). Initiative costs can be tweaked if deemed inappropriate but now 3 spam is less effective for those spamming it and the set is more in control of the user.

This is not a good idea. You don't need Larcenous at all times... From a distance, Larcenous is useless and a waste of ini and time. Flanking on the other hand, is always useful and is one of the reasons S/D thieves are as sustainable as they are, and not as stealth-dependent as it's counterparts. It's arguably the most sustainable brawler set in the Thieves arsenal. All you would accomplish with this change is drive S/D thieves into the ground and drag em through the dirt, to the point where their limbs rip off on their own with no help from any external source. In otherwords, you would neuter them.

You can work without landing Larcenous, but you can't if you miss-time your FS. Thieves defenses are all active. They don't have the luxury safety-nets all the other classes do. For thieves if they miss just ONE of those, they are either dead or halfway there... Hence why it seems like they evade "Spam".

Jiminy.8340 · January 14, 2018

All S/D really needs is for AA to be quicker. For example, making slash and crippling strike a quarter second each rather than a half second.

Ario.8964 · January 14, 2018

@TwiceDead.1963 said:
@"Ario.8964" said:What would help with s/d is to revert all of the changes done to it unnecessarily in the past so skill becomes a factor with the set. Make 3 cycle with each activation (doesn't require the first one to hit but the first one now doesn't need to be unblockable. 3 spamming for evades also disappears). Initiative costs can be tweaked if deemed inappropriate but now 3 spam is less effective for those spamming it and the set is more in control of the user.

This is not a good idea. You don't need Larcenous at all times... From a distance, Larcenous is useless and a waste of ini and time. Flanking on the other hand, is always useful and is one of the reasons S/D thieves are as sustainable as they are, and not as stealth-dependent as it's counterparts. It's arguably the most sustainable brawler set in the Thieves arsenal. All you would accomplish with this change is drive S/D thieves into the ground and drag em through the dirt, to the point where their limbs rip off on their own with no help from any external source. In otherwords, you would neuter them.

You can work without landing Larcenous, but you can't if you miss-time your FS. Thieves defenses are all active. They don't have the luxury safety-nets all the other classes do. For thieves if they miss just ONE of those, they are either dead or halfway there... Hence why it seems like they evade "Spam".

This is how s/d functioned before they nerfed it by making FS a landing requirement. During that time it worked perfectly and was able to be meta for a solid amount of time. This would not "neuter" s/d as the set and it's user should be able to play it without needing to use 3 for evades all the time. What making FS unblockable has done has 1) spoiled the people who swapped to s/d after it got buffed and are used to being able to spam unblockable skills now so they can't see how they would be able to play it without unblockable and spammable evade on demand 2) made s/d a hard counter to bunker builds due to it's ability to strip boons and bypass block with little to no effort. What you do by making it cycle automatically is lessen the counter of an s/d thief to any build that uses blocks as defense (should still counter pretty hard due to easier access to LS but it won't just allow 33333 on anyone blocking for free damage), you give s/d thief a competetive plus 1 ability (back before it was stupidly nerfed you would be able to pre load LS and then use that with basi venom and steal for a strong +1 burst which is necessary for a thief to be able to pull off, and you eliminate the problem with skill queues that cause people to waste all ini on FS going off 3 or 4 times in a row due to lag, double tapping, etc.

This isn't about defenses for thief as their dodging ability and positioning available with the setup already is sufficient for high level play and FS isn't used as much for defense as it is for offense or changing a defense into a counter attack (something that, again, does not need FS to be useable multiple times in a row)

Sustain for S/D comes from their regen and their double steal. If FS were to change the way I suggested it I guarantee people who actually know how to play the set (I.E not the people who genuinely 3 spam) will not notice any significant drop in sustain but they will notice their +1 ability increases and the fluidity of the set will increase as well.

TwiceDead.1963 · January 15, 2018

@Ario.8964 said:
@TwiceDead.1963 said:
@Ario.8964 said:What would help with s/d is to revert all of the changes done to it unnecessarily in the past so skill becomes a factor with the set. Make 3 cycle with each activation (doesn't require the first one to hit but the first one now doesn't need to be unblockable. 3 spamming for evades also disappears). Initiative costs can be tweaked if deemed inappropriate but now 3 spam is less effective for those spamming it and the set is more in control of the user.

This is not a good idea. You don't need Larcenous at all times... From a distance, Larcenous is useless and a waste of ini and time. Flanking on the other hand, is always useful and is one of the reasons S/D thieves are as sustainable as they are, and not as stealth-dependent as it's counterparts. It's arguably the most sustainable brawler set in the Thieves arsenal. All you would accomplish with this change is drive S/D thieves into the ground and drag em through the dirt, to the point where their limbs rip off on their own with no help from any external source. In otherwords, you would neuter them.

You can work without landing Larcenous, but you can't if you miss-time your FS. Thieves defenses are all active. They don't have the luxury safety-nets all the other classes do. For thieves if they miss just ONE of those, they are either dead or halfway there... Hence why it seems like they evade "Spam".

This is how s/d functioned before they nerfed it by making FS a landing requirement. During that time it worked perfectly and was able to be meta for a solid amount of time. This would not "neuter" s/d as the set and it's user should be able to play it without needing to use 3 for evades all the time. What making FS unblockable has done has 1) spoiled the people who swapped to s/d after it got buffed and are used to being able to spam unblockable skills now so they can't see how they would be able to play it without unblockable and spammable evade on demand 2) made s/d a hard counter to bunker builds due to it's ability to strip boons and bypass block with little to no effort. What you do by making it cycle automatically is lessen the counter of an s/d thief to any build that uses blocks as defense (should still counter pretty hard due to easier access to LS but it won't just allow 33333 on anyone blocking for free damage), you give s/d thief a competetive plus 1 ability (back before it was stupidly nerfed you would be able to pre load LS and then use that with basi venom and steal for a strong +1 burst which is necessary for a thief to be able to pull off, and you eliminate the problem with skill queues that cause people to waste all ini on FS going off 3 or 4 times in a row due to lag, double tapping, etc.

This isn't about defenses for thief as their dodging ability and positioning available with the setup already is sufficient for high level play and FS isn't used as much for defense as it is for offense or changing a defense into a counter attack (something that, again, does not need FS to be useable multiple times in a row)

Sustain for S/D comes from their regen and their double steal. If FS were to change the way I suggested it I guarantee people who actually know how to play the set (I.E not the people who genuinely 3 spam) will not notice any significant drop in sustain but they will notice their +1 ability increases and the fluidity of the set will increase as well.

I know this is how it functioned, but that was pre-expansions. There's been an asinine amount of powercreep since then. If you attempt the same playstyle now as you did 5 years ago, it won't end well. The real solution to accidental spam due to the skill-cue, is to simply not "Spam" the button. Controlled keypresses, it may take some time getting used to, but it pays off.

This whole idea that people are "Spoiled" by unblockables is ridiculous. If anything, the other classes are spoiled by the amount of passive and active defenses they can pull out of their asses. I played it because I had fun with it, but ask people before the buffs what they thought about S/D. Most considered the set a waste of time and unreliable, which it very well was compared to now. There was a lot fewer Sword thieves before the August 8th patch, and that was because the set was in dire straits.

Sustain from Double-Mug is great, yes, but the majority of your damage mitigation (or outright evasion as is the case) comes from your dodges and positioning. You're not supposed to be taking hits to begin with, and fat chance for you if you have to start relying on Regen to catch you up to speed.

Sindrener.1592 · January 15, 2018

@"Dagger.2035" said:It's weird that D/P thieves are asking for a S/D nerf to make themselves more viable. I haven't played PvP in a long time, but doesn't D/P still shutdown all other thieves if you are patient and play the plus one role. Also, wouldn't pushing S/D out of the meta just increase the number of Firebrands and Scourges and make things more difficult for D/P anyway?

D/P is viable still in ranked. And in AT's or organised 5v5 it's still viable except vs a full "tanky" comp where S/D shines more because it shreds through fb, but nerfing S/D isn't the solution to make D/P viable obviously it has to do with firebrand being absolutely broken in terms of tankyness and the insane amount of support it can dish out. Something is obviously wrong if you can't +1 a 2v2 mirror as dp thief as a raw damage class. So no nerfing S/D isn't gonna make DP viable it will just make thief fall out of meta.

@Ario.8964 I like the idea of reverting FS+LS to how it used to be where you used FS and even without landing you got access to the skill, then you have to decide wether to use it as an evade or you can just pre stack LS.

Fat Disgrace.4275 · January 16, 2018

Pretty sure LS ripped 2 boons for ages now, why the out cry all of a sudden? Though the double steal is a bit ott.

Ario.8964 · January 16, 2018

@TwiceDead.1963 said:
@Ario.8964 said:
@TwiceDead.1963 said:
@Ario.8964 said:What would help with s/d is to revert all of the changes done to it unnecessarily in the past so skill becomes a factor with the set. Make 3 cycle with each activation (doesn't require the first one to hit but the first one now doesn't need to be unblockable. 3 spamming for evades also disappears). Initiative costs can be tweaked if deemed inappropriate but now 3 spam is less effective for those spamming it and the set is more in control of the user.

This is not a good idea. You don't need Larcenous at all times... From a distance, Larcenous is useless and a waste of ini and time. Flanking on the other hand, is always useful and is one of the reasons S/D thieves are as sustainable as they are, and not as stealth-dependent as it's counterparts. It's arguably the most sustainable brawler set in the Thieves arsenal. All you would accomplish with this change is drive S/D thieves into the ground and drag em through the dirt, to the point where their limbs rip off on their own with no help from any external source. In otherwords, you would neuter them.

You can work without landing Larcenous, but you can't if you miss-time your FS. Thieves defenses are all active. They don't have the luxury safety-nets all the other classes do. For thieves if they miss just ONE of those, they are either dead or halfway there... Hence why it seems like they evade "Spam".

This is how s/d functioned before they nerfed it by making FS a landing requirement. During that time it worked perfectly and was able to be meta for a solid amount of time. This would not "neuter" s/d as the set and it's user should be able to play it without needing to use 3 for evades all the time. What making FS unblockable has done has 1) spoiled the people who swapped to s/d after it got buffed and are used to being able to spam unblockable skills now so they can't see how they would be able to play it without unblockable and spammable evade on demand 2) made s/d a hard counter to bunker builds due to it's ability to strip boons and bypass block with little to no effort. What you do by making it cycle automatically is lessen the counter of an s/d thief to any build that uses blocks as defense (should still counter pretty hard due to easier access to LS but it won't just allow 33333 on anyone blocking for free damage), you give s/d thief a competetive plus 1 ability (back before it was stupidly nerfed you would be able to pre load LS and then use that with basi venom and steal for a strong +1 burst which is necessary for a thief to be able to pull off, and you eliminate the problem with skill queues that cause people to waste all ini on FS going off 3 or 4 times in a row due to lag, double tapping, etc.

This isn't about defenses for thief as their dodging ability and positioning available with the setup already is sufficient for high level play and FS isn't used as much for defense as it is for offense or changing a defense into a counter attack (something that, again, does not need FS to be useable multiple times in a row)

Sustain for S/D comes from their regen and their double steal. If FS were to change the way I suggested it I guarantee people who actually know how to play the set (I.E not the people who genuinely 3 spam) will not notice any significant drop in sustain but they will notice their +1 ability increases and the fluidity of the set will increase as well.

I know this is how it functioned, but that was pre-expansions. There's been an asinine amount of powercreep since then. If you attempt the same playstyle now as you did 5 years ago, it won't end well. The real solution to accidental spam due to the skill-cue, is to simply not "Spam" the button. Controlled keypresses, it may take some time getting used to, but it pays off.

This whole idea that people are "Spoiled" by unblockables is ridiculous. If anything, the other classes are spoiled by the amount of passive and active defenses they can pull out of their kitten. I played it because I had fun with it, but ask people before the buffs what they thought about S/D. Most considered the set a waste of time and unreliable, which it very well was compared to now. There was a lot fewer Sword thieves before the August 8th patch, and that was because the set was in dire straits.

Sustain from Double-Mug is great, yes, but the majority of your damage mitigation (or outright evasion as is the case) comes from your dodges and positioning. You're not supposed to be taking hits to begin with, and fat chance for you if you have to start relying on Regen to catch you up to speed.

When I talk about sustain I'm talking specifically about heals and such. Evasion is mitigation which I don't count as sustain for the purpose of clarity in conversations. Just hope that clears up the last point as thief is a fairly low sustain but high mitigation class (hence why it's so punishing to make a mistake). What I mean is that the double steal and the regen coupled with a lower cd heal (18 seconds isn't too shabby, definitely would be better at it's old 15 seconds but anet had to go and mess with that unnecessarily too) all combine to make s/d core a fairly sustainable build coupled with the amount of damage mitigation available to the thief it makes for a strong build.

As far as damage mitigation goes, s/d 3 is important but really isn't your main form of mitigation as you generally will only use it once every now and again to give yourself an evade while you're waiting for endurance to come back and for an opening to present itself in the fight.

Yes powercreep has happened but the set would still function better for the thief overall if 3 worked a different way than unblockable hits on both parts of the chain. Sure in 1v1 we'd take a small hit (this is a very small hit) but +1's and burst access would improve which is a better thing for thief than being able to hit 3 for chained evades because you caught yourself out of position.

Pre- expac it functioned like it does now, the original function was nerfed before the removal of cele amulet which means it has been garbage like this for a long time. They removed the original function because at the time they believed it too powerful. That type of power would easily be a good fit in today's meta.

Fat Disgrace.4275 · January 16, 2018

I don't think the fs/LS is garbage at all, and i think it should of always been that fs must land before LS was enabled. Seen a lot of old vids where all they did was pre cast gw2 then LS + steal/port, it almost felt like a cheap gimmick just like jump + IR...speaking of that, 1 of the best things sword got was probably the cast time halfed on infiltration return from 1/2 second to 1/4 of a second, that 1/4 of a second difference it's noticeable a lot in fights.

Ario.8964 · January 16, 2018

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I don't think the fs/LS is garbage at all, and i think it should of always been that fs must land before LS was enabled. Seen a lot of old vids where all they did was pre cast gw2 then LS + steal/port, it almost felt like a cheap gimmick just like jump + IR...speaking of that, 1 of the best things sword got was probably the cast time halfed on infiltration return from 1/2 second to 1/4 of a second, that 1/4 of a second difference it's noticeable a lot in fights.

The way I look at it now is I'd rather see people pre casting ls than watching someone spam 3 and get free unblockable damage. With the pre cast it required 1) timing on the part of the user to make sure that they didn't pre load and get stuck needing an evade 2) it allowed the s/d set to fill more roles needed in a comp which is what made it competitive with d/p at first. It also allowed better counterplay as you could bait out their evade by making them pre load ls then you could cc them while they got ready to engage on you. There was much more intricate gameplay back when ls was pre loadable and that helped set the good thieves apart from the bad ones.

The #2 cast time was atrocious but that was because it used to be instant cast and a stunbreak so it was virtually impossible to lock down an s/d thief that was actually good at the set. 1/2 second was too much and they shaved it to a much nicer 1/4 sec. I still think it'd be fine as an instant if it couldn't be used while cced but that may just be me. Also jump casting on #2 never really felt like a gimmick to me as much as it felt like a new depth of mechanical skill brought to the set. It let you choose to be more aggressive and have high chasing power by sacrificing a safety net through your back port which meant that you had to predict how the engagement would play out. It's part of why I loved watching Sizer and Toker back when that trick existed. The way they predicted fights and utilized the extra mechanic really showcased their skills and knowledge as players.

TwiceDead.1963 · January 16, 2018

@Ario.8964 said:
@TwiceDead.1963 said:
@Ario.8964 said:
@TwiceDead.1963 said:
@Ario.8964 said:What would help with s/d is to revert all of the changes done to it unnecessarily in the past so skill becomes a factor with the set. Make 3 cycle with each activation (doesn't require the first one to hit but the first one now doesn't need to be unblockable. 3 spamming for evades also disappears). Initiative costs can be tweaked if deemed inappropriate but now 3 spam is less effective for those spamming it and the set is more in control of the user.