WvW restructure will fail if you do not balance defensive power

[Riba.3271]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Euryon.9248 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@"Shining One.1635" said:

If you weaken defenses, then those 5 dedicated randoms will halt 20+ people for only 10 minutes and still waypoint out. I fail to see how this encourages action.

Its not about wanting to blob those 5 people. It's about when even or greater numbers are using all the defensive rubbish to hide in a t3 something, then waypoint out.

That won't

force

them to come out if they are hyperphobic about dying, but it will

encourage

them to come out and have some

actual fun

on the field.

There is part of the problem. What you, me and many in this thread find

fun

is likely not what they find fun.

I have no problem decreasing walls to no higher HP than current reinforced. With a subsequent drop of each lower tiers HP on walls and gate.

I truly fear it will only lead to more k-training than fights.

To be fair, fighting enemy inside jerri or any other tower is more interesting than fighting them under mortar and ac fire. Like EB towers obviously are too strong with t3 Gates and stuff. its just claim buffs and no supply used to upgrade makes it kinda siege fest with defenders with more stats, tactics + respawns which is kinda "defenders will win always unless they get in before tactic is popped". At least one of them should be nerfed.

Theres already invulnerable tactic that buys you one minute, do you really need Gates and Walls that take 2 minute extra to take down?

The only map that really requires T3 walls and Gates is desert map. Currently it just takes too long to get t3 wall/gate with lets say 10 man nightcrew unless you somehow manage to build 8ish golems. For typical non optimal nightcrew it takes at least 15 minutes if no defenders and it takes like 1½ hours to upgrade back which barely enough to defend sm, defend a few things and reset another keep

Currently defenders need to do barely anything to defend a tower while attackers need to outnumber enemy, build shield gens and have to have enough time to actually cap the objective without 3rd server attacking them. And even that doesn't guarantee you to get in if the defenders just build enough shield gens, supply traps, trebs, acs, disablers, tactics etc etc.

[ImperialWL.7138]

100% agree. Tactivators killed the fun of taking objectives and there are some broken ones like invulnerable walls/gates and airships, basically anything that didn't allow for counterplay. If one side is so much weaker than the other that they cannot put up a fight they deserve to lose all their objectives.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Threather.9354 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Euryon.9248 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@"Shining One.1635" said:

If you weaken defenses, then those 5 dedicated randoms will halt 20+ people for only 10 minutes and still waypoint out. I fail to see how this encourages action.

Its not about wanting to blob those 5 people. It's about when even or greater numbers are using all the defensive rubbish to hide in a t3 something, then waypoint out.

That won't

force

them to come out if they are hyperphobic about dying, but it will

encourage

them to come out and have some

actual fun

on the field.

There is part of the problem. What you, me and many in this thread find

fun

is likely not what they find fun.

I have no problem decreasing walls to no higher HP than current reinforced. With a subsequent drop of each lower tiers HP on walls and gate.

I truly fear it will only lead to more k-training than fights.

To be fair, fighting enemy inside jerri or any other tower is more interesting than fighting them under mortar and ac fire. Like EB towers obviously are too strong with t3 Gates and stuff. its just claim buffs and no supply used to upgrade makes it kinda siege fest with defenders with more stats, tactics + respawns which is kinda "defenders will win always unless they get in before tactic is popped". At least one of them should be nerfed.

Theres already invulnerable tactic that buys you one minute, do you really need Gates and Walls that take 2 minute extra to take down?

The only map that really requires T3 walls and Gates is desert map. Currently it just takes too long to get t3 wall/gate with lets say 10 man nightcrew unless you somehow manage to build 8ish golems. For typical non optimal nightcrew it takes at least 15 minutes if no defenders and it takes like 1½ hours to upgrade back which barely enough to defend sm, defend a few things and reset another keep

Currently defenders need to do barely anything to defend a tower while attackers need to outnumber enemy, build shield gens and have to have enough time to actually cap the objective without 3rd server attacking them. And even that doesn't guarantee you to get in if the defenders just build enough shield gens, supply traps, trebs, acs, disablers, tactics etc etc.

I think you missed the last point I made about HP of walls. My idea actually would reduce how long it takes to get in on each tier, and still require tier three to get the HP of a tier 2 tower/keep. That's actually somewhat better than not letting them get past the current T-2 as it would take longer to get to the same level.

Again,.,, (and i may truly be wrong here) i think this is going to lead to more K-training.

[Euryon.9248]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Euryon.9248 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@"Shining One.1635" said:

If you weaken defenses, then those 5 dedicated randoms will halt 20+ people for only 10 minutes and still waypoint out. I fail to see how this encourages action.

Its not about wanting to blob those 5 people. It's about when even or greater numbers are using all the defensive rubbish to hide in a t3 something, then waypoint out.

That won't

force

them to come out if they are hyperphobic about dying, but it will

encourage

them to come out and have some

actual fun

on the field.

There is part of the problem. What you, me and many in this thread find

fun

is likely not what they find fun.

I have no problem decreasing walls to no higher HP than current reinforced. With a subsequent drop of each lower tiers HP on walls and gate.

I truly fear it will only lead to more k-training than fights.

To be fair, fighting enemy inside jerri or any other tower is more interesting than fighting them under mortar and ac fire. Like EB towers obviously are too strong with t3 Gates and stuff. its just claim buffs and no supply used to upgrade makes it kinda siege fest with defenders with more stats, tactics + respawns which is kinda "defenders will win always unless they get in before tactic is popped". At least one of them should be nerfed.

Theres already invulnerable tactic that buys you one minute, do you really need Gates and Walls that take 2 minute extra to take down?

The only map that really requires T3 walls and Gates is desert map. Currently it just takes too long to get t3 wall/gate with lets say 10 man nightcrew unless you somehow manage to build 8ish golems. For typical non optimal nightcrew it takes at least 15 minutes if no defenders and it takes like 1½ hours to upgrade back which barely enough to defend sm, defend a few things and reset another keep

Currently defenders need to do barely anything to defend a tower while attackers need to outnumber enemy, build shield gens and have to have enough time to actually cap the objective without 3rd server attacking them. And even that doesn't guarantee you to get in if the defenders just build enough shield gens, supply traps, trebs, acs, disablers, tactics etc etc.

I think you missed the last point I made about HP of walls. My idea actually would reduce how long it takes to get in on each tier, and still require tier three to get the HP of a tier 2 tower/keep. That's actually somewhat better than not letting them get past the current T-2 as it would take longer to get to the same level.

Again,.,, (and i may truly be wrong here) i think this is going to lead to more K-training.

You may be right, but unfortunately I don't think you can decouple k-training from more fights. Strong defenses deter both K-training and fighting, as it is much easier and less risky to hide behind siege-capped T3 walls even if the groups are roughly equivalent in size. Decrease defenses and you increase the incentive for equal-sized groups to come out and fight -- but you also make it easier to K-train.

Personally, I will take the extra K-training if it also increases fights and decreases siege-humping.

I would support your suggestion concerning HP of walls and gates. I would also support nerfing invuln tactics and siege disablers (or else make it equally feasible to disable defensive siege). But especially I would support sever nerfs on AC damage/range/aoe. Right now it's so very easy to get all your kills sitting on an AC behind fortified defenses and watching the bags roll in at virtually zero risk to yourself.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Euryon.9248 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Euryon.9248 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@"Shining One.1635" said:

If you weaken defenses, then those 5 dedicated randoms will halt 20+ people for only 10 minutes and still waypoint out. I fail to see how this encourages action.

Its not about wanting to blob those 5 people. It's about when even or greater numbers are using all the defensive rubbish to hide in a t3 something, then waypoint out.

That won't

force

them to come out if they are hyperphobic about dying, but it will

encourage

them to come out and have some

actual fun

on the field.

There is part of the problem. What you, me and many in this thread find

fun

is likely not what they find fun.

I have no problem decreasing walls to no higher HP than current reinforced. With a subsequent drop of each lower tiers HP on walls and gate.

I truly fear it will only lead to more k-training than fights.

To be fair, fighting enemy inside jerri or any other tower is more interesting than fighting them under mortar and ac fire. Like EB towers obviously are too strong with t3 Gates and stuff. its just claim buffs and no supply used to upgrade makes it kinda siege fest with defenders with more stats, tactics + respawns which is kinda "defenders will win always unless they get in before tactic is popped". At least one of them should be nerfed.

Theres already invulnerable tactic that buys you one minute, do you really need Gates and Walls that take 2 minute extra to take down?

The only map that really requires T3 walls and Gates is desert map. Currently it just takes too long to get t3 wall/gate with lets say 10 man nightcrew unless you somehow manage to build 8ish golems. For typical non optimal nightcrew it takes at least 15 minutes if no defenders and it takes like 1½ hours to upgrade back which barely enough to defend sm, defend a few things and reset another keep

Currently defenders need to do barely anything to defend a tower while attackers need to outnumber enemy, build shield gens and have to have enough time to actually cap the objective without 3rd server attacking them. And even that doesn't guarantee you to get in if the defenders just build enough shield gens, supply traps, trebs, acs, disablers, tactics etc etc.

I think you missed the last point I made about HP of walls. My idea actually would reduce how long it takes to get in on each tier, and still require tier three to get the HP of a tier 2 tower/keep. That's actually somewhat better than not letting them get past the current T-2 as it would take longer to get to the same level.

Again,.,, (and i may truly be wrong here) i think this is going to lead to more K-training.

You may be right, but unfortunately I don't think you can decouple k-training from more fights. Strong defenses deter both K-training and fighting, as it is much easier and less risky to hide behind siege-capped T3 walls even if the groups are roughly equivalent in size. Decrease defenses and you increase the incentive for equal-sized groups to come out and fight -- but you also make it easier to K-train.

Personally, I will take the extra K-training if it also increases fights and decreases siege-humping.

I would support your suggestion concerning HP of walls and gates. I would also support nerfing invuln tactics and siege disablers (or else make it equally feasible to disable defensive siege). But especially I would support sever nerfs on AC damage/range/aoe. Right now it's so very easy to get all your kills sitting on an AC behind fortified defenses and watching the bags roll in at virtually zero risk to yourself.

Here's the thing though.... with the exception of SMC, why are we still building catas within AC or Ballista range? Guild catas or superior catas with two shield gens take down any wall quickly. Three guild catas and two shield gens will drop a wall in around 3 minutes. And if it has watchtower, placing the cata out of range is easy enough with the exception of maybe three to five towers. If your people are dying to ACs or ballistas while hitting a wall, you are doing it wrong.

SMC inner is a different story. Though catas from certain points will do the job, that is slow as hell.

[Riba.3271]

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:

Here's the thing though.... with the exception of SMC, why are we still building catas within AC or Ballista range? Guild catas or superior catas with two shield gens take down any wall quickly. Three guild catas and two shield gens will drop a wall in around 3 minutes. And if it has watchtower, placing the cata out of range is easy enough with the exception of maybe three to five towers. If your people are dying to ACs or ballistas while hitting a wall, you are doing it wrong.

SMC inner is a different story. Though catas from certain points will do the job, that is slow as hell.

The main problem pointed here is not the siege or getting through the gate. It is the fact that equal numbered enemies will win attackers always unless theres a high skill difference between attackers and defenders.

The gates just take too long to take down for attackers to get the equal ground (get to lord room which is now better for defenders due to warrior bubbles unless its sm with enough space) without enemy manning a few extra acs in addition to that.

You just cant bypass the advantage of chilling fogs, dragon banners, siege, ewps, claim buff, respawn etc with the current system.

If you have ever commanded or guild raided, you would realise defending t3 objective is the easiest thing to do ever. All you need to do is not run to the enemy and get your melee oneshotted and the casters will win the fight for you.

It is way too unbalanced atm. So it is better just staying away from t3 objectives than dying 10 times in a row trying to take it. Which leads to you ktraining anza and mendon if there's 3 blobs on map and everything else is t3. That gets boring pretty quickly because you're not accomplishing anything. You dont even need 3 servers if the SM holders are "just going for fights" and practically defend the missing side by keeping your team busy.

[Timelord.8190]

Anet ruined WvW alot with HoT. So much defensive addons added. Just look:1 Sabotage Depot • Hardened Gates • Armored Dolyaks • Packed Dolyaks • Speedy Dolyaks2 Iron Guards • Hardened Siege3 Gate Turrets • Watchtower • Presence of the Keep • Cloaking Waters

+Guild Objective Aura

Tactics1 Minor Supply Drop • Chilling Fog • Invulnerable Dolyaks •2 Centaur Banner • Turtle Banner • Dragon Banner3 Emergency Waypoint • Invulnerable Fortifications • Airship Defense

The attackers have to deal with this + often the same number of players + overpowered siege, which you made overpowered since the WvW ranks came.All this gimmicky stuff ruined the gameplay. It's nearly impossible to take T3 keeps/towers when enemies are there. The gameplay has just gotten so stale, there is no synergy.

[Drinks.2361]

@Timelord.8190 said:with HoT

Desert Borderlands ... although it's much better now then when it launched with all the PvE gimmicks

edit: it's just gw2 has such a great combat system, then they went and added all these ways to avoid using it

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Euryon.9248" said:I would support your suggestion concerning HP of walls and gates.Problem isnt just the HP though, its the exponential effect of damage reduction and HP. Currently objectives gain like +100% strength per tier (ignoring T1). If we assume a random and simple number like 10k dps on a T1 keep wall, it takes ~37s to down it. The same attack force on a T2 keep wall takes ~89s to down it. That's +140% strength for a mere 60% increase in HP. T3 keep wall would take 164s, or yet another 85% boost in strength (unless the damage reduction is cummulative) for a 38% increase in HP over T2. I really dont understand why Anet even chose to design it like that.

I would be fully in favor of vastly simplifying that on 4 points:

• Tier based PPT is either deleted or significantly reduced to like +1 point
• Objective tiers gain say +50% HP per upgrade with no damage reductions.
• Tier upgrade is faster (fixing broken dolly spawns would already help with that)
• Tactivators are changed to function on a cd basis with short duration in order to engage players, rather than "you got 1 chance and thats it". Like a scout ballon giving you 1m of sight on a 5m cd, so you can "alert" your server rather than having perma visibility.

= quicker pace attacking upgraded objectives, more fun to try to actively defend objectives that upgrade within a play season (if you can hold camps) and far less getting bogged down against static objectives raking in easy PPT.

[samo.1054]

I'll just drop my two cents here. When I see a T3 enemy structure on the map nowadays, I don't even want to go anywhere near that thing. ACs have been ruining the game since release, raining down like there's no tomorrow. T3 walls and gates are too hard - no one wants to stand there and treb/cata the walls for an hour, ACs need a serious serious redesign. Too much effect for a no-brainer that can be placed anywhere and in such numbers. Back in the days we could at least take ACs out with Omegas, but somehow Anet thought that wasn't cool, so now we have to endure the AC shower and pretend that we're having fun.

[Deratrius.4035]

How often do you see a zerg that has a legitimate chance at beating your own zerg sit in the T3 for 2-3 hours?? 99% of the time this happens is because you've one pushed them before so they play it careful or because the keep is full of pugs and the commander has a dozen players actually following them. That same group would be running away and porting to spawn if it was open field.

Defences benefit the weaker groups and sometimes allow them to beat a more organised or much larger group. If your honest goal is challenging fights then that should not really bother you. I've played on servers ranging from stacked T1 to bottom of the barrel and I've been commanding for years and the main reason we don't get fights or that fights suck has almost never been "This other group that could have a fair fight against us is hiding in a structure shooting ACs". The main reason is either a numbers issue or a quality issue and this is not caused by randoms building ACs on walls but by some servers being stacked and some others not.

You want more fights? Then take the WvW restructuring as an opportunity to try and spread fight guild/players across alliances and get that K:D ration closer to 1:1. As long as players keep stacking and aiming for crazy K:D ratios as if it made the game better we will keep having zergs that rolfstomp enemies and players that hide in structures because it's their only option. Nobody's going to feed you free lootbags just so that your night is more exciting.

[Rampage.7145]

@Deratrius.4035 said:How often do you see a zerg that has a legitimate chance at beating your own zerg sit in the T3 for 2-3 hours?? 99% of the time this happens is because you've one pushed them before so they play it careful or because the keep is full of pugs and the commander has a dozen players actually following them. That same group would be running away and porting to spawn if it was open field.

So, when u die in PUBG u dont play another match cuz u will most likelly die again? do you not play a second match in league of legends because u got shit on the first time???? Do you not enter PvP again in GW2 cuz u got trashed by ESL players before??? NO, u just keep trying cuz what would be the point of the game if not trying, why would u even wanna win the most fights? Isnt much more fun to fight when u are loosing tho? Am i the only one who las legit more fun fighting outnumbered and outskilled than 1 pushing shitlords all day long? Everytime u 1 push to an enemy is how u get better at the game learning from fail and try again, whoever just decides to fuck off and sit on a wall after dying shouldnt be playing PvP games in first place honestly. People with that midset shoul not even be playing PvP games i would be ok driving all those players away from the game mode so we could get only the PvP competitive minded players that just have fun playing the game for the sake of PvPing win or lose, this is how it should be, whoever do not agree with this should just stick to playing single player/co-op games and has nothing to add to WvW or this forums.

[Rampage.7145]

@Deratrius.4035 said:You want more fights? Then take the WvW restructuring as an opportunity to try and spread fight guild/players across alliances and get that K:D ration closer to 1:1. As long as players keep stacking and aiming for crazy K:D ratios as if it made the game better we will keep having zergs that rolfstomp enemies and players that hide in structures because it's their only option. Nobody's going to feed you free lootbags just so that your night is more exciting.

This is utopic, never gonna happen u just try get better and play with players who wanna get better win or lose dosn't really matter as long players wanna get better honestly

[Dawdler.8521]

@Deratrius.4035 said:Defences benefit the weaker groups and sometimes allow them to beat a more organised or much larger group.

Problem with that argument is that defenses also benefit the stronger group even more and always allow them to dominate a disorganized and much smaller group.

The weaker group wouldnt have T3 anyway. Because the stronger would have reset it long before. Unless of course its nightcapped and reach T3 unopposed. Which is sort of the whole issue.

[cobbah.3102]

Just put it back the way it used to be ,then everyone should be happy (I say should but there will always be resistance to change it is human nature ) .. Give everyone no armour and just a big stick let us get back to basics and call it Neanderthal Wars .

[AmphibianX.7042]

@"cobbah.3102" said:Just put it back the way it used to be ,then everyone should be happy (I say should but there will always be resistance to change it is human nature ) .. Give everyone no armour and just a big stick let us get back to basics and call it Neanderthal Wars .

Ritualized warfare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BzqwOBneC4