Lunateric.3708 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Link over here: A few notes from their engi:9 condis is the new realistic setup because chrono no longer does perma slow.thermal vision is strictly better than no scope.PPD is about 2k less DPS.Condi engi is officially dead (you were right @Geisterlicht.6083 )I was extemely excited about thermal vision but completely forgot PPD and that trait compete on the same tier and the bigger thing is thermal vision is a power modifier only, basically a better glass cannon :<. Several solutions have been posted on these forums like merging rocket on explosives with orbital command to transfer PPD over (that tier has 0 condi interaction) and so on but yeah, condi engi still the epitome of complexity that doesn't reward you properly. Maybe @Robert Gee.9246, the dev I have seen post around here before can tell us more about thermal vision and why it was put on that particular tier (same with No Scope and PPD) or why it only affects power damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUST.2305 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 I'd say Condi needs attention. It's still a fun build (if you like complexity like I do), but yeah the reward just isn't there. Shame they can't figure out how (or want to) to make the numbers for both option at least even. :c Still have bomb autos...another nerf to it and it still can't escape the rotation due to lack of alternatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joxer.6024 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 @LUST.7241 said:Still have bomb autos...another nerf to it and it still can't escape the rotation due to lack of alternatives.So yea, if that's the case at least change the silly way they look! Looks like a curling stone....make it look mean!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hintkei.6329 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 sad day for condi engiessword buffs made its dps closer to rifle (coz it got nerfed too :D) but in real raids sword is just bad, u cant sidestep any mechanics so u r just stading there w8ing for them to go away (vg blues, sab getting bombs coz closest to her, carin port, deimos blacks and many more).also about bombs AAs, its not like rifle holos only camp bomb AA, they r swapping between kits and rifle to be ablo to have competitive dps, they decide to nerf it is like nerfing Fireball for weaver coz its their source of AA when their skills r on CD.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunateric.3708 Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 @hintkei.6329 said:sad day for condi engiessword buffs made its dps closer to rifle (coz it got nerfed too :D) but in real raids sword is just bad, u cant sidestep any mechanics so u r just stading there w8ing for them to go away (vg blues, sab getting bombs coz closest to her, carin port, deimos blacks and many more).also about bombs AAs, its not like rifle holos only camp bomb AA, they r swapping between kits and rifle to be ablo to have competitive dps, they decide to nerf it is like nerfing Fireball for weaver coz its their source of AA when their skills r on CD....Hey hint, initially what I was thinking was that thermal vision was a mod for any damage (power and condi) but seems it's only power, do you happen to know how it works exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephalem.8921 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 So does it mean ppd holo is 1k above bs and below spellbreaker now? And i got yelled at in another thread for saying that the nerf is higher than expected.Meanwhile weaver got buffed like wtf. I want to play something else than weaver in fracs without getting outdamaged by 10k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hintkei.6329 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 apparently its only powercomparing to war, its hard coz BS has EA (support class+banners) so its kinda fine to comapre with PDD but spellbreaker is a dps class on its own (brings nothing for grp - i hope u r talking about the 33.4 spb vid) so compare it to thermal vision -> holo wins but not by muchedit: holo dps was fine the whole time, i dont get why balancing team keep changing stuff that are totally fine and makng it worse. Also im more sad about condi engi part than holo, condi was the reason i stared to main this class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunateric.3708 Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 @hintkei.6329 said:apparently its only powercomparing to war, its hard coz BS has EA (support class+banners) so its kinda fine to comapre with PDD but spellbreaker is a dps class on its own (brings nothing for grp - i hope u r talking about the 33.4 spb vid) so compare it to thermal vision -> holo wins but not by muchedit: holo dps was fine the whole time, i dont get why balancing team keep changing stuff that are totally fine and makng it worse. Also im more sad about condi engi part than holo, condi was the reason i stared to main this classHave you tried benching condi engi at all?, what numbers are yo getting?If the damage mod for thermal vision worked for both condi and power and we got some tweaking to numbers (IE pistol 3 and concussion bomb do confusion and that got nerfed, alacrity got nerfed) maybe we'd be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hintkei.6329 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 i didnt test thermal on condi and based on the wording it should be only power. But still this trait doesnt help (only solo) coz PDD on grp is much more dps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geisterlicht.6083 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 sad day :(condi engi brought me to this class :'( F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hintkei.6329 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 @Lunateric.3708 said:@hintkei.6329 said:apparently its only powercomparing to war, its hard coz BS has EA (support class+banners) so its kinda fine to comapre with PDD but spellbreaker is a dps class on its own (brings nothing for grp - i hope u r talking about the 33.4 spb vid) so compare it to thermal vision -> holo wins but not by muchedit: holo dps was fine the whole time, i dont get why balancing team keep changing stuff that are totally fine and makng it worse. Also im more sad about condi engi part than holo, condi was the reason i stared to main this classHave you tried benching condi engi at all?, what numbers are yo getting?If the damage mod for thermal vision worked for both condi and power and we got some tweaking to numbers (IE pistol 3 and concussion bomb do confusion and that got nerfed, alacrity got nerfed) maybe we'd be fine.I did test condi engi, u could get like 31 if grinded, more likely around 30.5k. initial burst is only around like 28k-29k, its rly low at this point its just better to only play holo. alacrity nerf makes u do more nade AAs and also the confusion nerfs hits rly hard (its -1500 if u use it lol)i might test and try to figure out a new rota but dont expect any miracle that would make condi engi at least comparable to PDD holo (before patch PDD holo was 33.1 and condi engi 33k)Also if thermal vision affected condi dmg, u wont ever use it coz PDD on others > 5% mods on condi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephalem.8921 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Yes was comparing thermal vision holo with spellbreaker. But had for some reason 34k for the d/a a/d build in my head.Condi engi also lost out on 2 confusion skills on top of the alacrity change. Engi traits are just a mess. Explosions grandmaster traits are just: "meh, whatever".Why have they added a 3rd strictly dps oriented trait in the firearms tier? At least they changed the daze scrapper trait 2 years after they removed most of the dazes.Not even sure what they wanted to acomplish with the trait there. It doesn't help condi engi since its on the same tier as ppd and power already had no scope.Anyone knows how hard renegade got hit by the alacrity and confusion nerf? Is it still worth to do a ren, holo, bs subgrp or is it just not worth anymore.Numbers are still good so it shouldn't change much for holos in raids and fractal players gave up long time ago and switched to weavers anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrestige.8236 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Isn't Thermal Vision then a better glass cannon in a tier where the ferocity with fury bonus also exists... why over-saturate that tier with power stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joxer.6024 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 @"hintkei.6329" said:sword buffs made its dps closer to rifle (coz it got nerfed too :D) but in real raids sword is just bad, u cant sidestep any mechanics so u r just stading there w8ing for them to go away (vg blues, sab getting bombs coz closest to her, carin port, deimos blacks and many more).Yea, if they gonna "buff" sword fix the range a bit cuz there's melee and then there's share the same pair of pants melee, and that what sword asks since the range isn't even the length of your sword. So yea, you gonna be spending a lot of thinking time trying to not get ported, bombed, etc. I'm with hintk, it seems that Anet doesn't really LOOK at what they do, they just do it.All the same, I shall persevere on my rifle Holo and see what plays out. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunateric.3708 Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 I don't mind sword since rifle is still superior and still makes use of kits (not sure how grenade kit sword pans out) but I do mind when traits directly compete with eachother for builds that are already not performing well - talking about vanilla condi engi -, I think it was a missed opportunity to have PPD and thermal vision on different tiers/traitlines and the mod to not affect condi damage. People asking for Marksman to be baseline aren't really wrong too but that's another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardid.7203 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 What about hybrid? Has someone tested Cele mixed builds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivantreil.3092 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 @hintkei.6329 said:@Lunateric.3708 said:@hintkei.6329 said:apparently its only powercomparing to war, its hard coz BS has EA (support class+banners) so its kinda fine to comapre with PDD but spellbreaker is a dps class on its own (brings nothing for grp - i hope u r talking about the 33.4 spb vid) so compare it to thermal vision -> holo wins but not by muchedit: holo dps was fine the whole time, i dont get why balancing team keep changing stuff that are totally fine and makng it worse. Also im more sad about condi engi part than holo, condi was the reason i stared to main this classHave you tried benching condi engi at all?, what numbers are yo getting?If the damage mod for thermal vision worked for both condi and power and we got some tweaking to numbers (IE pistol 3 and concussion bomb do confusion and that got nerfed, alacrity got nerfed) maybe we'd be fine.I did test condi engi, u could get like 31 if grinded, more likely around 30.5k. initial burst is only around like 28k-29k, its rly low at this point its just better to only play holo. alacrity nerf makes u do more nade AAs and also the confusion nerfs hits rly hard (its -1500 if u use it lol)i might test and try to figure out a new rota but dont expect any miracle that would make condi engi at least comparable to PDD holo (before patch PDD holo was 33.1 and condi engi 33k)Also if thermal vision affected condi dmg, u wont ever use it coz PDD on others > 5% mods on condiNot Really, it would be like in the no scope case, where if theres another Engineer already providing PPD, you would take in theory termal vision for improve personal damage, if only improved condi damage of course.I've Been playing this build since my first raid days, it really saddens me see this spec die, Condi Engineer died first in PvP, now its dead in PvE.... oh dear, Condi Engi is back to the useless state from the pre-HoT days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunateric.3708 Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 @Ardid.7203 said:What about hybrid? Has someone tested Cele mixed builds?Cele will never be a thing outside WvW, period. The issue with engi in particular is you don't really get hybrid choices IE modified (power) and incendiary (condi) ammo both exist on the same tier. You can't go hybrid anything if the choices are competing against each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeskies.1536 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 @Nephalem.8921 said:So does it mean ppd holo is 1k above bs and below spellbreaker now? And i got yelled at in another thread for saying that the nerf is higher than expected.Meanwhile weaver got buffed like kitten. I want to play something else than weaver in fracs without getting outdamaged by 10k.Holosmith and Spellbreaker are basically tied in DPS. The Training Golem does not account for Spellbreaker being able to use opportunistically use Full Counter to ignore mechanics while maintaining Berserker's Power and gaining Attacker's Insight stacks off of adds. Spellbreaker is at 32-33k DPS on golem without Full Counter and 35k DPS with Full Counter, using either GS/Axes or Daggers/Axes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 @Ivantreil.3092 said:@hintkei.6329 said:@Lunateric.3708 said:@hintkei.6329 said:apparently its only powercomparing to war, its hard coz BS has EA (support class+banners) so its kinda fine to comapre with PDD but spellbreaker is a dps class on its own (brings nothing for grp - i hope u r talking about the 33.4 spb vid) so compare it to thermal vision -> holo wins but not by muchedit: holo dps was fine the whole time, i dont get why balancing team keep changing stuff that are totally fine and makng it worse. Also im more sad about condi engi part than holo, condi was the reason i stared to main this classHave you tried benching condi engi at all?, what numbers are yo getting?If the damage mod for thermal vision worked for both condi and power and we got some tweaking to numbers (IE pistol 3 and concussion bomb do confusion and that got nerfed, alacrity got nerfed) maybe we'd be fine.I did test condi engi, u could get like 31 if grinded, more likely around 30.5k. initial burst is only around like 28k-29k, its rly low at this point its just better to only play holo. alacrity nerf makes u do more nade AAs and also the confusion nerfs hits rly hard (its -1500 if u use it lol)i might test and try to figure out a new rota but dont expect any miracle that would make condi engi at least comparable to PDD holo (before patch PDD holo was 33.1 and condi engi 33k)Also if thermal vision affected condi dmg, u wont ever use it coz PDD on others > 5% mods on condiNot Really, it would be like in the no scope case, where if theres another Engineer already providing PPD, you would take in theory termal vision for improve personal damage, if only improved condi damage of course.I've Been playing this build since my first raid days, it really saddens me see this spec die, Condi Engineer died first in PvP, now its dead in PvE.... oh dear, Condi Engi is back to the useless state from the pre-HoT days.I always used condi engi pre HoT days and was very successful with it. Maybe it was b/c I was crazy to run it and ppl didnt know how to properly fight (as ai did PvP/WvW) and it did great in PvE. Any chance for an example or something more specific why it was "useless"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivantreil.3092 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:@Ivantreil.3092 said:@hintkei.6329 said:@Lunateric.3708 said:@hintkei.6329 said:apparently its only powercomparing to war, its hard coz BS has EA (support class+banners) so its kinda fine to comapre with PDD but spellbreaker is a dps class on its own (brings nothing for grp - i hope u r talking about the 33.4 spb vid) so compare it to thermal vision -> holo wins but not by muchedit: holo dps was fine the whole time, i dont get why balancing team keep changing stuff that are totally fine and makng it worse. Also im more sad about condi engi part than holo, condi was the reason i stared to main this classHave you tried benching condi engi at all?, what numbers are yo getting?If the damage mod for thermal vision worked for both condi and power and we got some tweaking to numbers (IE pistol 3 and concussion bomb do confusion and that got nerfed, alacrity got nerfed) maybe we'd be fine.I did test condi engi, u could get like 31 if grinded, more likely around 30.5k. initial burst is only around like 28k-29k, its rly low at this point its just better to only play holo. alacrity nerf makes u do more nade AAs and also the confusion nerfs hits rly hard (its -1500 if u use it lol)i might test and try to figure out a new rota but dont expect any miracle that would make condi engi at least comparable to PDD holo (before patch PDD holo was 33.1 and condi engi 33k)Also if thermal vision affected condi dmg, u wont ever use it coz PDD on others > 5% mods on condiNot Really, it would be like in the no scope case, where if theres another Engineer already providing PPD, you would take in theory termal vision for improve personal damage, if only improved condi damage of course.I've Been playing this build since my first raid days, it really saddens me see this spec die, Condi Engineer died first in PvP, now its dead in PvE.... oh dear, Condi Engi is back to the useless state from the pre-HoT days.I always used condi engi pre HoT days and was very successful with it. Maybe it was b/c I was crazy to run it and ppl didnt know how to properly fight (as ai did PvP/WvW) and it did great in PvE. Any chance for an example or something more specific why it was "useless"?This statement is coming from the days before the Massive condition rework where they had a stack limit, and condition were overwritten by the next newest condition, not stacked like it is nowadays.Not only condi engi was ueslesss, many other condi specs were aswell, as soon as one of your teammates applied unintentionally, or passively, some of their low condies in their power specs, your big fire burst was eliminated.You had to be the only condi around, and you had to be sure that your teammates couldnt interfere with your own conditions, for pvp, this meant that only 1 player per team could be a condi player, for pve, i think they never saw play due to how much your condi class would be damanding to other classes in order to avoid inflicting passive condies.Perhaps some other classes managed to be comfortable, but condi engi?, inflicting 4 different kinds of condi damage at the same time in order to be in the average damage mark? it was just too much restrictions for everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 @Ivantreil.3092 said:@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:@Ivantreil.3092 said:@hintkei.6329 said:@Lunateric.3708 said:@hintkei.6329 said:apparently its only powercomparing to war, its hard coz BS has EA (support class+banners) so its kinda fine to comapre with PDD but spellbreaker is a dps class on its own (brings nothing for grp - i hope u r talking about the 33.4 spb vid) so compare it to thermal vision -> holo wins but not by muchedit: holo dps was fine the whole time, i dont get why balancing team keep changing stuff that are totally fine and makng it worse. Also im more sad about condi engi part than holo, condi was the reason i stared to main this classHave you tried benching condi engi at all?, what numbers are yo getting?If the damage mod for thermal vision worked for both condi and power and we got some tweaking to numbers (IE pistol 3 and concussion bomb do confusion and that got nerfed, alacrity got nerfed) maybe we'd be fine.I did test condi engi, u could get like 31 if grinded, more likely around 30.5k. initial burst is only around like 28k-29k, its rly low at this point its just better to only play holo. alacrity nerf makes u do more nade AAs and also the confusion nerfs hits rly hard (its -1500 if u use it lol)i might test and try to figure out a new rota but dont expect any miracle that would make condi engi at least comparable to PDD holo (before patch PDD holo was 33.1 and condi engi 33k)Also if thermal vision affected condi dmg, u wont ever use it coz PDD on others > 5% mods on condiNot Really, it would be like in the no scope case, where if theres another Engineer already providing PPD, you would take in theory termal vision for improve personal damage, if only improved condi damage of course.I've Been playing this build since my first raid days, it really saddens me see this spec die, Condi Engineer died first in PvP, now its dead in PvE.... oh dear, Condi Engi is back to the useless state from the pre-HoT days.I always used condi engi pre HoT days and was very successful with it. Maybe it was b/c I was crazy to run it and ppl didnt know how to properly fight (as ai did PvP/WvW) and it did great in PvE. Any chance for an example or something more specific why it was "useless"?This statement is coming from the days before the Massive condition rework where they had a stack limit, and condition were overwritten by the next newest condition, not stacked like it is nowadays.Not only condi engi was ueslesss, many other condi specs were aswell, as soon as one of your teammates applied unintentionally, or passively, some of their low condies in their power specs, your big fire burst was eliminated.You had to be the only condi around, and you had to be sure that your teammates couldnt interfere with your own conditions, for pvp, this meant that only 1 player per team could be a condi player, for pve, i think they never saw play due to how much your condi class would be damanding to other classes in order to avoid inflicting passive condies.Perhaps some other classes managed to be comfortable, but condi engi?, inflicting 4 different kinds of condi damage at the same time in order to be in the average damage mark? it was just too much restrictions for everyone else.Good thing I excelled at 1v1's and decapping...and another thing...I had access to all damaging condis at one point. Maybe thats why I did well...who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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