Why is there a cooldown on Backstab?

[Ario.8964]

@zalt.8937 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@martin.1653 said:Take a kitchen knife and try stabbing air. You, me or any other pleb untrained in the art of stabbing could do a quick succession of at least 10 pretty strong stabs before there would be a need to take a small break. Just sayin.

You'd be surprised how long it takes to recover from a swing that doesn't hit anything because you have to correct your momentum. Also worth pointing out that thieves do not wield kitchen knives, they wield a full sized double bladed dagger that is in excess of 12 inches in length.

First of all backstab isnt a swing, its a stab. The time it takes to correct the momentum of a stab with a dagger/knife is not very long. (both models are used in the game, both big and small. Trying to find any logic in most skins is stupid). A dagger have the point of balance very close to the guard or handle. That combined with the low weight of such a weapon makes the handling easy. (A dagger means a short blade with two edges as you pointed out, so the blade itself wont be very thick, and therefore quite light. There are a few weapons called a dagger which does not fit the theme, such as the rondell dagger whos sole purpose is to stab between the plates of later medieval armour. This dagger have no edge and have a triangular cross section. It is too very light.)

You might confuse knife/dagger handling with sabres/axes/khukuri/bowie(both are knifes but not made for stabbing and quite big, making it not fit the topic)/falchion which have the point of balance much closer to the tip of the blade, making it exelent for cutting and slicing, but requiring a lot more momentim to maneuver. Neither however will stab very well.

Also as a side note, using a straight bladed sword with the point of balance close to the guard is quite fast and easy to maneuver. Should you miss a swing or mid swing decide to change direction in order to parry an incoming blow, you can do this with ease. People tend to think that swords are clumpsy pieces of metal, requeiring great strength to maneuver, which is wrong.

Sorry for ranting, my inner nerd got triggered.

Really interesting read though

[Carighan.6758]

@"Ario.8964" said:You're telling me if you suddenly saw an aegis disappear from you and you knew thief backstab didn't have a cd you wouldn't move around or dodge? Sounds more like a personal problem than a balance problem...

Was it a Thief? Was it one of the 4 people over there at 1200 range? Was it the two characters whose spell effects haven't loaded yet because the engine is so outdated it cannot utilize anything but the CPU?

Like I said, 1v1 duelling a Thief, suuuuure. Easy. But let's be honest, outside of synthetic environments that's not going to happen because "fair fight" is the biggest tactical or strategic blunder.

[Jinks.2057]

It was changed because for years Anet had been trying to nerf backstab/stealth.

They tried on multiple occasions to do this the most infamous being reveal on coming unstealthed. That was a fun patch.....

This was an ongoing debate inside Anet until Karl basically took over. Now thieves have to live with the CD after years of it not being an issue.

Players who main guardian were the most vocal about BS removing aegis without reveal; even though, they've straight hard countered thief since release Anet catered to them.

Now backstab is very weak and neutered compared to what it once was.

It should also be noted that most of the complaints about this issue stems from WvW. This is important beecause when all the changes took place Anet specifically said they don't balance around WvW....except for thief apparently.

Thief is the most nerfed and hated class in GW2. It's well documented and censored on that documentation.

Still the class retains its high skill floor/ceiling and is the most fun and engaging class to play in this game. Can't take that away

[Ario.8964]

@Jinks.2057 said:It was changed because for years Anet had been trying to nerf backstab/stealth.

They tried on multiple occasions to do this the most infamous being reveal on coming unstealthed. That was a fun patch.....

This was an ongoing debate inside Anet until Karl basically took over. Now thieves have to live with the CD after years of it not being an issue.

Players who main guardian were the most vocal about BS removing aegis without reveal; even though, they've straight hard countered thief since release Anet catered to them.

Now backstab is very weak and neutered compared to what it once was.

It should also be noted that most of the complaints about this issue stems from WvW. This is important beecause when all the changes took place Anet specifically said they don't balance around WvW....except for thief apparently.

Thief is the most nerfed and hated class in GW2. It's well documented and censored on that documentation.

Still the class retains its high skill floor/ceiling and is the most fun and engaging class to play in this game. Can't take that away

They're working on it with all these overloaded 3 spam builds. Yes they are gimmicks but they are some pretty potent gimmicks and more thieves are migrating over to those easy to play builds because there's a greater promise of reward for less work.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@zalt.8937 said:Also as a side note, using a straight bladed sword with the point of balance close to the guard is quite fast and easy to maneuver. Should you miss a swing or mid swing decide to change direction in order to parry an incoming blow, you can do this with ease. People tend to think that swords are clumpsy pieces of metal, requeiring great strength to maneuver, which is wrong.

Lot of nerds tend to think this because of how badly their retail-store-katanas handle. I know before I got into fighting, I felt this way.

A properly-made broadsword weighs only a few pounds and should be able to change swing direction in the middle of a strike with relative ease given how it's balanced. If the user can't do this, either he is physically weak or using a bad sword.

And as I mentioned above, daggers are grossly misused in media; you'd only ever bother with a slash intended to inflict harm if fighting someone not wearing any armor or long clothing, as a simple long-sleeved shirt can completely negate such strikes from low-weight/low-inertia weapons. In fact, in most martial arts/knife fighting, the offhand arm is used as a first line of defense because slashes generally won't work against it enough to be lethal, and it can push/catch/block a stab (Assuming you are trained to now allow strikes to the Brachial artery as being struck here is lethal).

With a dagger, you stab. And you stab fast. The point is to attack so quickly with so much repetition and do so much damage to vitals that the body can no longer function to muster retaliation. With my training, I can get around five or six full-power stabs per second for about a minute straight (and then my arm falls off :tongue:).

As a PSA related to the above, knife-fighting exercises and martial arts training, including Krav Maga, are not sufficient to justify standing ground to an armed assailant in a one-on-one encounter. This is the opinion of professionals and masters everywhere. In the rare event you are involved in such a scenario, even if you are similarly armed and trained, the absolute #1 thing should be to comply with their demands and immediately run away to a safe, populated place and immediately call the police. Direct retaliation, even if you are trained, is only recommended if there are absolutely no other alternative courses of action and you are being attacked, because in real knife fighting, at least one person ends up dead with half of their insides missing.

[Jinks.2057]

@Ario.8964 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:It was changed because for years Anet had been trying to nerf backstab/stealth.

They tried on multiple occasions to do this the most infamous being reveal on coming unstealthed. That was a fun patch.....

This was an ongoing debate inside Anet until Karl basically took over. Now thieves have to live with the CD after years of it not being an issue.

Players who main guardian were the most vocal about BS removing aegis without reveal; even though, they've straight hard countered thief since release Anet catered to them.

Now backstab is very weak and neutered compared to what it once was.

It should also be noted that most of the complaints about this issue stems from WvW. This is important beecause when all the changes took place Anet specifically said they don't balance around WvW....except for thief apparently.

Thief is the most nerfed and hated class in GW2. It's well documented and censored on that documentation.

Still the class retains its high skill floor/ceiling and is the most fun and engaging class to play in this game. Can't take that away

They're working on it with all these overloaded 3 spam builds. Yes they are gimmicks but they are some pretty potent gimmicks and more thieves are migrating over to those easy to play builds because there's a greater promise of reward for less work.

The heavy reliance on active defenses and frailness of the class keeps the floor/ceiling high

[Ario.8964]

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Ario.8964 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:It was changed because for years Anet had been trying to nerf backstab/stealth.

They tried on multiple occasions to do this the most infamous being reveal on coming unstealthed. That was a fun patch.....

This was an ongoing debate inside Anet until Karl basically took over. Now thieves have to live with the CD after years of it not being an issue.

Players who main guardian were the most vocal about BS removing aegis without reveal; even though, they've straight hard countered thief since release Anet catered to them.

Now backstab is very weak and neutered compared to what it once was.

It should also be noted that most of the complaints about this issue stems from WvW. This is important beecause when all the changes took place Anet specifically said they don't balance around WvW....except for thief apparently.

Thief is the most nerfed and hated class in GW2. It's well documented and censored on that documentation.

Still the class retains its high skill floor/ceiling and is the most fun and engaging class to play in this game. Can't take that away

They're working on it with all these overloaded 3 spam builds. Yes they are gimmicks but they are some pretty potent gimmicks and more thieves are migrating over to those easy to play builds because there's a greater promise of reward for less work.

The heavy reliance on active defenses and frailness of the class keeps the floor/ceiling high

Meh, not as high as it used to be or could be but definitely above other classes.

[Platanos.8107]

CnD should just make the next attack unblockable (if CnD hit) >:[. I'm sure it has been suggested numerous times on this forums.

Also I think they made the aftercast for backstab way too long. After you miss backstab, you have to wait for another .75 seconds or so before the 1 second cooldown timer starts to appear. I'm not able to get 2 backstabs in unless I immediately spam 1 after stealthing.

[zalt.8937]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@zalt.8937 said:Also as a side note, using a straight bladed sword with the point of balance close to the guard is quite fast and easy to maneuver. Should you miss a swing or mid swing decide to change direction in order to parry an incoming blow, you can do this with ease. People tend to think that swords are clumpsy pieces of metal, requeiring great strength to maneuver, which is wrong.

Lot of nerds tend to think this because of how badly their retail-store-katanas handle. I know before I got into fighting, I felt this way.

A properly-made broadsword weighs only a few pounds and should be able to change swing direction in the middle of a strike with relative ease given how it's balanced. If the user can't do this, either he is physically weak or using a bad sword.

And as I mentioned above, daggers are grossly misused in media; you'd only ever bother with a slash intended to inflict harm if fighting someone not wearing any armor or long clothing, as a simple long-sleeved shirt can completely negate such strikes from low-weight/low-inertia weapons. In fact, in most martial arts/knife fighting, the offhand arm is used as a first line of defense because slashes generally won't work against it enough to be lethal, and it can push/catch/block a stab (Assuming you are trained to now allow strikes to the Brachial artery as being struck here is lethal).

With a dagger, you stab. And you stab fast. The point is to attack so quickly with so much repetition and do so much damage to vitals that the body can no longer function to muster retaliation. With my training, I can get around five or six full-power stabs per second for about a minute straight (and then my arm falls off :tongue:).

As a PSA related to the above, knife-fighting exercises and martial arts training, including Krav Maga, are not sufficient to justify standing ground to an armed assailant in a one-on-one encounter. This is the opinion of professionals and masters everywhere. In the rare event you are involved in such a scenario, even if you are similarly armed and trained, the absolute #1 thing should be to comply with their demands and immediately run away to a safe, populated place and immediately call the police. Direct retaliation, even if you are trained, is only recommended if there are absolutely no other alternative courses of action and you are being attacked, because in real knife fighting, at least one person ends up dead with half of their insides missing.

Interesting read! Im not trained in practical use of sword/dagger, wish i was, but i've got way too much going on irl to fit that in my day haha. And i bet your arm is quite soar after such a session lol.I do like the part were you mentioned slashing on simple clothing. While you ofc should'nt just count on being perfectly safe from a cut wearing a sweater, it can definately catch the blade and prevent penetration. Especially if one wear loose clothing like a hoodie.

My knowledge regarding daggers and knifes isn't really that deep tho, especially the more modern aspects. since im way more interested in historical swords and axes and their techniques.

And yah, anyone with their wits about them should leave if possivle at such an encounter where nothing can be gained except grave injury at either part. Great you mentioned it!

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Auturgist.8256 said:If I use Steal and Hidden Thief to stealth behind someone and attempt to Backstab, and they are out of range, why do I lose any chance to do it? I feel like I should be able to spam my first attack and the Backstab should go off as soon as it possibly can -- I shouldn't lose the chance just because someone moved out of melee range when I hit the button. Considering Necros get to drop AoE literally all over the kitten map and I need to blow every dodge and Shadowstep to get out of it, it should be easier for me to land a kitten Backstab.

Someone complained before learning how to play.

[Auturgist.8256]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Someone complained before learning how to play.

Actually, I complained AFTER learning how to play five years ago, coming back to the game, and finding shit changed for the worse. It wasn't like this before, and it was better.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Auturgist.8256 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Someone complained before learning how to play.

Actually, I complained AFTER learning how to play five years ago, coming back to the game, and finding kitten changed for the worse. It wasn't like this before, and it was better.

I know, I've been playing Thief since day one. I'm not calling you out XD. I'm saying that someone complained about thief being too good, and we've been getting hit for five freaking years.

[Taltevus.3289]

PRobably for the same reason there is a cool down on Mesmers Mantra of Distraction.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Taltevus.3289 said:PRobably for the same reason there is a cool down on Mesmers Mantra of Distraction.

Cool down on Mantra of Distraction is completely different it’s not tied to AA for one, and only available while stealthed, and it’s a weapon skill on the class that isn’t supposed to have CDs on their Weapon Skills.

[caveman.5840]

why not just make hitting ageis from stealth reveal you and remove the cool down

the cool down is a total pain in the ass

I miss playing power D/D this change honestly just makes it tougher for no reason at all and with all the fucking AOE spam in this game your telling me I need to "PERFECTLY" time every back stab with perfect positioning just to make a single target combo worthwhile ...... lol what a joke ,,,

[Auturgist.8256]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Auturgist.8256 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Someone complained before learning how to play.

Actually, I complained AFTER learning how to play five years ago, coming back to the game, and finding kitten changed for the worse. It wasn't like this before, and it was better.

I know, I've been playing Thief since day one. I'm not calling you out XD. I'm saying that someone complained about thief being too good, and we've been getting hit for five freaking years.

Oh. I interpreted what you said as ME complaining before learning how to play. Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

[Auturgist.8256]

@caveman.5840 said:why not just make hitting aegis from stealth reveal you and remove the cool down

Right? Holy shit this would make so much sense.

[MakubeC.3026]

Purity of purpose.

[Crinn.7864]

@caveman.5840 said:why not just make hitting ageis from stealth reveal you and remove the cool downWhy not dodges as well? Or should people who manage to predict your backstab not be rewarded for their efforts?

imho casting a stealth attack should always reveal regardless of if it hits or not.

[caveman.5840]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@caveman.5840 said:why not just make hitting ageis from stealth reveal you and remove the cool downWhy not dodges as well? Or should people who manage to predict your backstab not be rewarded for their efforts?

imho casting a stealth attack should always reveal regardless of if it hits or not.

if u hit something you should be revealed.

don't know how it would make any sense to buff dodges but the cool down they added to backstab has always been a ridiculous change mainly affecting the playability of the power D/D build, no other weapon set really suffers from this change quite like power D/D does

D/p with its unlimited gap closers built in blinds and a easy stealth combo it just does not really feel this change because if u miss you can easily stealth or close the gap however power D/D does not have such luxuries ... the problem with this change is how much it affects one weapon set over the others in a ridiculous attempt to increase the skill ceiling.

I would argue it does not even increase the skill ceiling and is just a silly nucenses as long as u avoid using D/D as a power build.this change took power D/D from the highest risk to reward build to all risk and no reward.

[Ghost.5637]

@caveman.5840 said:why not just make hitting ageis from stealth reveal you and remove the cool down

No thanks. That's a little too much punishment for hitting a block. I think the biggest issue is what happens when you miss vs hitting a target. If you hit nothing there should be no cooldown and the animation can be recast. Simply make it to where if you hit nothing -> no cooldown. If you hit a blocking/invuln target -> 1sec cd no reveal. If you hit a target and damage goes through -> apply revealed.

[Warkind.6745]

It's not like D/P is lacking the tools to strip aegis anyways. Even D/D thieves can use Dancing Dagger.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:

@caveman.5840 said:why not just make hitting ageis from stealth reveal you and remove the cool down

No thanks. That's a little too much punishment for hitting a block. I think the biggest issue is what happens when you miss vs hitting a target. If you hit nothing there should be no cooldown and the animation can be recast. Simply make it to where if you hit nothing -> no cooldown. If you hit a blocking/invuln target -> 1sec cd no reveal. If you hit a target and damage goes through -> apply revealed.

I like this. It makes the D/D matchup into stealthed targets a bit better since you can try and strike via prediction more consistently, while not affecting anything else such that aegis doesn't become worthless and backstab spamming too effective.

[Menyus.4610]

this aegis argument is hilarious Guardian is the biggest thief counter in the game

[Jinks.2057]

@Menyus.4610 said:this aegis argument is hilarious Guardian is the biggest thief counter in the game

This