Buff Condition Removal?

[Axl.8924]

So i was looking around.Why not take arcane thievery? its pretty nice ability 25 sec cd sends all your conditions to your enemy steals their boons for yourself, AND IT SLOWS!! wow thats so awesome.

[Curunen.8729]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I think we can trait for a crazy amount of condi removal already, at least with mirage - EM, jaunt, RI, SV, Prestige, Mantra, Mender's Purity, AT, Null Field, Cleansing Sigils...

Sure I do think they should be spread out rather than overloaded on Inspiration - maybe Sympathetic Visage should be in Illusions. Chaos could possibly have a trait RNG converting condi to boons. Domination could have something like "on Interrupt transfer a condition to your target".

Mirage doesnt really bring that much, Yes you can remove ONE condition on Dodge and ONE condition on Jaunt which has a 20second cool down, 60seconds if you want to remove 3. Seems a bit steep to me. Torch is another long cool down low condition removal skill. The problem with the mantra is that a near 3 second cast. You cane take HUGE amounts of damage in that time it takes to charge, thats if you are able to either stealth or use other cool downs to actually get the chance to get it off, then you have the 24second recharge to remove 3 conditions!? It just seems forced like that to make you use all the charges just so you can get that reduced cool down, even if it means having a near 3 second cast :/

While on paper it looks like good removal, in practice, its really not due to the low cool downs or low removal. Though i wouldnt say no to Sympathic Visage being combined with Persistence of Memory, maybe even make it so it affects clones as well. Be nice if we had reasonable options, its not even as if Inspiration is as good as say Water for Ele when it comes to condi removal. Restorative Illusions could be improved Maybe remove 1 condition PER a a clone that hits your target or something?

In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

You would never run adventurer runes in any serious build, you would never blow 4 dodges for just condis, you would never spam all of jaunt for condies, and you would never run condi removing food in any serious WvW build, and in Spvp where you don't get those options it's worse.Where did I say condi removing food? I'm talking about endurance food to supplement EM.

And LOL to not running adventurer runes in a "serious" build. While solo roaming I can count the number of 1v1s I've been killed in since pof mirage with this build on one hand - two were warriors, one an extremely good thief. Frequently I engage 1v2+, often get to secure a stomp and have little problem disengaging if things go badly. Otherwise most deaths are outnumbered. I only state this to defend adventurer runes as being a "serious" option.

Unless by "serious" you mean group wvw, in which case why are we even talking about condi cleanse because you should have allies to cleanse/apply resistance and heal...

And why are you assuming spamming these skills to remove condi? I might dodge once (there's one condi), weapon swap (oh there goes another), jaunt for position/damage (and another, dodge again (and another - energy sigil), prestige if appropriate (and another)... 5 condis cleansed almost without thinking with dodge cover cast heal into dodge off cool down, more jaunts off cool down, plenty of ways to kite and avoid some condi application, weapon swap returning shortly, and all the while endurance refilling at a pretty crazy rate. That's without slotting mantra or whatever.

I will give you a point for pvp - yes due to nerfed energy sigils and no food it is tougher, but I believe we have enough condi removal there anyway - and being a team mode you should have allies to cleanse/support any weaknesses (yes I know in practice, soloq mindset is selfish), particularly if playing power mesmer with focus on +1 and move on.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Pyroatheist.9031" said:Yeah, our condie removal is more than fine. Remember that condies can be countered just like other attacks by actually avoiding them. You don't have to actually facetank everything and then cleanse it off afterwards. If you're properly avoiding damage, you can get plenty of condie removal in any build with some choices like the mantra, elusive mind, torch, or even arcane thievery. If you really are unable to avoid condies to the point that that's not enough, you'll need to make the sacrifice in your build by taking inspiration for more cleanse. If

that

isn't enough, then the problem is L2P, not mesmer.

So, say that you get condi bombed. Which SO many classes in this game can do, You now have 5+ Conditions on you. You are now also getting applied more conditions ontop of the condi bomb, which will be ready to use again very soon. You are melting from all the condis. What do you do to remove them? use all your dodges and Jaunt 3 times? What about the next condi bomb which will happen very soon?

Hit the mantra twice and drop 6 conditions? That'll work fine. If you don't have a ton of boons to corrupt you won't be exposed to the most potent of condition bombs, but the mantra will take care of any singular condie bombs you get hit with.

If you get hit with it again "very soon", you should probably take a hard look at your dodging expertise.

[Solori.6025]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I think we can trait for a crazy amount of condi removal already, at least with mirage - EM, jaunt, RI, SV, Prestige, Mantra, Mender's Purity, AT, Null Field, Cleansing Sigils...

Sure I do think they should be spread out rather than overloaded on Inspiration - maybe Sympathetic Visage should be in Illusions. Chaos could possibly have a trait RNG converting condi to boons. Domination could have something like "on Interrupt transfer a condition to your target".

Mirage doesnt really bring that much, Yes you can remove ONE condition on Dodge and ONE condition on Jaunt which has a 20second cool down, 60seconds if you want to remove 3. Seems a bit steep to me. Torch is another long cool down low condition removal skill. The problem with the mantra is that a near 3 second cast. You cane take HUGE amounts of damage in that time it takes to charge, thats if you are able to either stealth or use other cool downs to actually get the chance to get it off, then you have the 24second recharge to remove 3 conditions!? It just seems forced like that to make you use all the charges just so you can get that reduced cool down, even if it means having a near 3 second cast :/

While on paper it looks like good removal, in practice, its really not due to the low cool downs or low removal. Though i wouldnt say no to Sympathic Visage being combined with Persistence of Memory, maybe even make it so it affects clones as well. Be nice if we had reasonable options, its not even as if Inspiration is as good as say Water for Ele when it comes to condi removal. Restorative Illusions could be improved Maybe remove 1 condition PER a a clone that hits your target or something?

In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

You would never run adventurer runes in any serious build, you would never blow 4 dodges for just condis, you would never spam all of jaunt for condies, and you would never run condi removing food in any serious WvW build, and in Spvp where you don't get those options it's worse.Where did I say condi removing food? I'm talking about endurance food to supplement EM.

And LOL to not running adventurer runes in a "serious" build. While solo roaming I can count the number of 1v1s I've been killed in since pof mirage with this build on one hand - two were warriors, one an extremely good thief. Frequently I engage 1v2+, often get to secure a stomp and have little problem disengaging if things go badly. Otherwise most deaths are outnumbered. I only state this to defend adventurer runes as being a "serious" option.

Unless by "serious" you mean group wvw, in which case why are we even talking about condi cleanse because you should have allies to cleanse/apply resistance and heal...

And why are you assuming spamming these skills to remove condi? I might dodge once (there's one condi), weapon swap (oh there goes another), jaunt for position/damage (and another, dodge again (and another - energy sigil), prestige if appropriate (and another)... 5 condis cleansed almost without thinking with dodge cover cast heal into dodge off cool down, more jaunts off cool down, plenty of ways to kite and avoid some condi application, weapon swap returning shortly, and all the while endurance refilling at a pretty crazy rate. That's without slotting mantra or whatever.

I will give you a point for pvp - yes due to nerfed energy sigils and no food it is tougher, but I believe we have enough condi removal there anyway - and being a team mode you should have allies to cleanse/support any weaknesses (yes I know in practice, soloq mindset is selfish), particularly if playing power mesmer with focus on +1 and move on.

Sorry, took the time to re-read, you are in EU.So it might be different for you then it is in the US.Most mirage builds I see/have fought either run scholar ( or some variant) for power. This build is a one shot build so no one really last that long unless they have good spacial awarness, or they run a condi variant using one of the flat condi % buff runes to maximize condition damage.Most condi builds in the US can burst stacks of condies on you, the main perps are usually scourge, thief, or condi mes. So where you remove 3 condies, you have to worry about the reapplication of 3 then one extra, and this isn't even talking about the random CC that could come from them as well. Usually in open world, I burst, and if they don't die I evade until I can try again, but if it becomes a 2v1 with say a condi theif and a scourge that gets significantly harder. But that is just the experience I have with solo roaming vs T1 servers, where everyone seems to roam in groups.Interested to see what build you run for WvW though, because I have never seen or heard of a build with adventurer runes.

Edit: Also most condi builds I run into a trailblazers,dire, or a mix of the two for the added lols.Nothing like trying to fight a condi scourge and thief with full dire:(

[Curunen.8729]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:I think we can trait for a crazy amount of condi removal already, at least with mirage - EM, jaunt, RI, SV, Prestige, Mantra, Mender's Purity, AT, Null Field, Cleansing Sigils...

Sure I do think they should be spread out rather than overloaded on Inspiration - maybe Sympathetic Visage should be in Illusions. Chaos could possibly have a trait RNG converting condi to boons. Domination could have something like "on Interrupt transfer a condition to your target".

Mirage doesnt really bring that much, Yes you can remove ONE condition on Dodge and ONE condition on Jaunt which has a 20second cool down, 60seconds if you want to remove 3. Seems a bit steep to me. Torch is another long cool down low condition removal skill. The problem with the mantra is that a near 3 second cast. You cane take HUGE amounts of damage in that time it takes to charge, thats if you are able to either stealth or use other cool downs to actually get the chance to get it off, then you have the 24second recharge to remove 3 conditions!? It just seems forced like that to make you use all the charges just so you can get that reduced cool down, even if it means having a near 3 second cast :/

While on paper it looks like good removal, in practice, its really not due to the low cool downs or low removal. Though i wouldnt say no to Sympathic Visage being combined with Persistence of Memory, maybe even make it so it affects clones as well. Be nice if we had reasonable options, its not even as if Inspiration is as good as say Water for Ele when it comes to condi removal. Restorative Illusions could be improved Maybe remove 1 condition PER a a clone that hits your target or something?

In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

You would never run adventurer runes in any serious build, you would never blow 4 dodges for just condis, you would never spam all of jaunt for condies, and you would never run condi removing food in any serious WvW build, and in Spvp where you don't get those options it's worse.Where did I say condi removing food? I'm talking about endurance food to supplement EM.

And LOL to not running adventurer runes in a "serious" build. While solo roaming I can count the number of 1v1s I've been killed in since pof mirage with this build on one hand - two were warriors, one an extremely good thief. Frequently I engage 1v2+, often get to secure a stomp and have little problem disengaging if things go badly. Otherwise most deaths are outnumbered. I only state this to defend adventurer runes as being a "serious" option.

Unless by "serious" you mean group wvw, in which case why are we even talking about condi cleanse because you should have allies to cleanse/apply resistance and heal...

And why are you assuming spamming these skills to remove condi? I might dodge once (there's one condi), weapon swap (oh there goes another), jaunt for position/damage (and another, dodge again (and another - energy sigil), prestige if appropriate (and another)... 5 condis cleansed almost without thinking with dodge cover cast heal into dodge off cool down, more jaunts off cool down, plenty of ways to kite and avoid some condi application, weapon swap returning shortly, and all the while endurance refilling at a pretty crazy rate. That's without slotting mantra or whatever.

I will give you a point for pvp - yes due to nerfed energy sigils and no food it is tougher, but I believe we have enough condi removal there anyway - and being a team mode you should have allies to cleanse/support any weaknesses (yes I know in practice, soloq mindset is selfish), particularly if playing power mesmer with focus on +1 and move on.

Sorry, took the time to re-read, you are in EU.So it might be different for you then it is in the US.Most mirage builds I see/have fought either run scholar ( or some variant) for power. This build is a one shot build so no one really last that long unless they have good spacial awarness, or they run a condi variant using one of the flat condi % buff runes to maximize condition damage.Most condi builds in the US can burst stacks of condies on you, the main perps are usually scourge, thief, or condi mes. So where you remove 3 condies, you have to worry about the reapplication of 3 then one extra, and this isn't even talking about the random CC that could come from them as well. Usually in open world, I burst, and if they don't die I evade until I can try again, but if it becomes a 2v1 with say a condi theif and a scourge that gets significantly harder. But that is just the experience I have with solo roaming vs T1 servers, where everyone seems to roam in groups.Interested to see what build you run for WvW though, because I have never seen or heard of a build with adventurer runes.

Edit: Also most condi builds I run into a trailblazers,dire, or a mix of the two for the added lols.Nothing like trying to fight a condi scourge and thief with full dire:(

I've PMed you because I don't want to derail this thread. I run hybrid.

I find power mesmers much more dangerous than condi mesmers in wvw - with power I have to be constantly aware of burst cooldowns and the right time to spike. With condi it's so slow it's easy to mitigate the damage by cleansing or even avoid application of condi in the first place. If I get condi burst I can burst chain cleanses as well as blink/jaunt/phaseretreat/stealth away to reset cooldowns, but usually it's common to evade condi burst due to mirage's high uptime of evade frames.

[OriOri.8724]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Hear me out here, but I think our condi removal is fine as it is. And I actually

like

that its overrepresented in the Inspirations line. That forces us to take a defensive line to get the most condi cleanse, which means we have to sacrifice a damage oriented line. That is how game balance should work. Its just that across the board, every class is spitting out way too many conditions, way too rapidly, and that makes our rather insane condi removal look pitiful by comparison.

I would much rather see condi output slashed across the board than to increase, or even spread out, our condi removal.

Over represented would be the level that Ele has in water. The removal in Inspiration is nowhere near the same level. Water has access to 3 Condition removals and thats just the removals, add in Cleansing Water and that adds a HUGE amount of removals and it works so well when combined with skills and other trait lines.

Inspiration is our condi removal but no where near as strong. 1 Condition removed on a shatter between 10-40+ second cool downs, 1-2 removed per a Phantasm cast, 16-20+ second cool downs, 1 removed on Heal.

No where near as strong. If you ran Inspiration and Mantra of Recovery. That is 7 conditions removed. That is using ALL of your shatter skills and charging and using all mantra uses. Soul beast Ranger. 1 Trait. 1 Heal. removes 12...

Condi cleanse on shatter, condi cleanse on phantasm cast (which, mind you, we can trait berserker to summon 2 phantasms on a 12 seconds CD. 2 condis cleansed every 12 seconds from a single skill is a very strong condi cleanse), condi cleanse on heal (again, if we wanted to we can get a heal down to 12 seconds with mirror). That's a boat load of condi cleanse already. Enough to effectively be immune to conditions if the application was toned down to where it should be

[Daishi.6027]

I think we're fine as long as slotting inspiration, which if you want to argue that we don't get enough dmg taking it I'd have entertained that more prior to the recent patch.

Like almost anything in this game you wont survive cleansing everything than taking a second bomb, and I don't think you should on a glass spec.But beyond insp we have so much in mirage as mentioned prior,. I don't suggest it but on top of insp you could take Hoelbrak runes with Renewing Oasis even if it might not be as good since they changed Illusionary Inspiration and cleansing sigil.

Or you can build for stealth to cover Mantra of Resolve cast which is a full wipe and then 6 after.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

@Daishi.6027 said:I think we're fine as long as slotting inspiration, which if you want to argue that we don't get enough dmg taking it I'd have entertained that more prior to the recent patch.

Like almost anything in this game you wont survive cleansing everything than taking a second bomb, and I don't think you should on a glass spec.But beyond insp we have so much in mirage as mentioned prior,. I don't suggest it but on top of insp you could take Hoelbrak runes with Renewing Oasis even if it might not be as good since they changed Illusionary Inspiration and cleansing sigil.

Or you can build for stealth to cover Mantra of Resolve cast which is a full wipe and then 6 after.

Does OP say what build s/he is using? Because I’ve switched from running Inspiration to just mantra and haven’t had an issue. Sure, in outnumbered fights I’ll get bombed but heck most of the time the fight is 1v5+ before I’m pressured that much. So I wonder if they’re running a glassy build with low health?

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"apharma.3741" said:I'm in T2 EU (WSR linked with Deso) and while yes you do come across some condition heavy roamers on the whole it's a pretty even mix that I've seen. FB+Scourge/reaper is the most troublesome condition roamer I've had to fight as FB can heal and support the scourge/reaper, insta rez when they down with stab and aegis.

Condi engineer: They generally burst overload you from stealth but after that usually useless, avoid initial burst and counter burst 100-50%, they will run.Condi ranger: Seriously these guys are rarely an issue, bleed, poison and maybe some burns with a sprinkle of immob/cripple. EM+Jaunt can handle it.Condi thief: If it's the perma dodge variety, stealth, get ooc and then slot mantra of distraction to lock them down at the end of their spammed evades.Condi war: Why are you complaining about this? EM+Jaunt = immune to it.Condi guard: Cleansing is on the last applied condition so whenever you get burn, cleanse and you'll be largely safe. Burst where you can and abuse stealth.Condi rev: These guys can burst crazy amounts of torment but largely it's just torment and a few covers. See above about guards and burn.Condi mes: See above about revs. If need be back off and leave the fight. A decent one will escape most of the time with mirage thrust so it's pointless.Condi ele: I...don't think this should qualify an answer, they only really have bleed and burn.Condi necro: If scourge range them as much as you can and just keep tickling them till burstable, then burst and kill. If supported don't try to win the 1v2 as you won't without a very specific build which ironically involves disenchanter to remove boons to prevent a rez. Reaper should be power, just range and kite.

If you're running into an outnumbered fight against a full condition group then you shouldn't fight outnumbered, get your friends and make it an even fight, focus one down and kill, then back off while someone at range kites and keeps them in combat to prevent rezzing the guy, druid is great for this. When you've all reset rinse and repeat till it's a slaughter.

Shows how much attention i pay, i didnt even know that we dropped down to T2 lol (Im deso) i come across them daily, i guess its because i am more of a ruins roamer. Especially when i see servers trying to take the ruins. When it comes to condi its mostly Necro and Mesmer that i see, most of them are "okay" but for other classes, they will be easy to counter. I know my ranger doesnt worry about most Condi builds due to the high access to removals, mobility, stealth, high ranged burst and everything. The problem i have is the mindless AoE spamming of Scourge where they will throw Marks, Wells, and the kitchen sink at you so you cant get close, you cant stay ranged its no matter where you are, you are having Condis, upon condis and even more condis thrown at you :/

@Solori.6025 said:You would never run adventurer runes in any serious build, you would never blow 4 dodges for just condis, you would never spam all of jaunt for condies, and you would never run condi removing food in any serious WvW build, and in Spvp where you don't get those options it's worse.

This. This and some more. This.

@"Axl.8924" said:Condi cleanse on shatter, condi cleanse on phantasm cast (which, mind you, we can trait berserker to summon 2 phantasms on a 12 seconds CD. 2 condis cleansed every 12 seconds from a single skill is a very strong condi cleanse), condi cleanse on heal (again, if we wanted to we can get a heal down to 12 seconds with mirror). That's a boat load of condi cleanse already. Enough to effectively be immune to conditions if the application was toned down to where it should be

1 per a shatter skill used, hardly stellar removal. Cleanse on Phantasm, isnt so bad if you run GS and/or Styaff but still thats 1-2 removed on 20+ second cool downs. Again nothing that great. 12 second cool down? How so? The lowest i can get it is 16seconds when tried for the 20% reduction, remember the other 20% reduction was removed. 1 Condi removed on 12second is still meh considering the heal is kinda crappy unless you're facing like a Ranger or something.

"Boat load" is a slight exaggeration.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Daishi.6027" said:I think we're fine as long as slotting inspiration, which if you want to argue that we don't get enough dmg taking it I'd have entertained that more prior to the recent patch.

Like almost anything in this game you wont survive cleansing everything than taking a second bomb, and I don't think you should on a glass spec.But beyond insp we have so much in mirage as mentioned prior,. I don't suggest it but on top of insp you could take Hoelbrak runes with Renewing Oasis even if it might not be as good since they changed Illusionary Inspiration and cleansing sigil.

Or you can build for stealth to cover Mantra of Resolve cast which is a full wipe and then 6 after.

I'd happily have less dmaage if it meant the removals were as good as other key trait lines for other classes, but that isnt really the case. 40second cool down stealth. Not really that viable to cover the cast time and you INSTANTLY get AOE bombed the moment that you go stealth, so its Stealth + Phase Retreat or something to really be "okay"

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:Does OP say what build s/he is using? Because I’ve switched from running Inspiration to just mantra and haven’t had an issue. Sure, in outnumbered fights I’ll get bombed but heck most of the time the fight is 1v5+ before I’m pressured that much. So I wonder if they’re running a glassy build with low health?

Defo not glass, I have like 20k health, 1.6-1.7k Toughness. Though, i would say you are facing SERIOUSLY bad people if you're able to go 1 Vs 5 against several condi people. That, or they are Condi but not actually attacking.

[Curunen.8729]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:In practice with dodge food, adventurer runes with 12s heal, energy sigils and perma vigour, Elusive Mind is a powerhouse condi cleanse by itself, nevermind in combination with other skills. Adding to that, high evade uptime allows avoidance of incoming condi application in the first place - so not only having high cleanse potential but negating initial application.

In wvw conditions are very rarely the thing that kills me - rather it's usually direct damage.

Though I would certainly agree that there should be some kind of condi removal options in other lines to encourage build diversity.

So you need food, You need sigils, you need runeset, you need specific heal. All to have EM being good to remove conditions, personally i would prefer condition removal that ISN'T built around spamming dodging.

In T1 EU, most roamers are condition builds :/ Most of them being bunker. Of course the old iDisenchanter would have bene near useless against the mindless AOE condis spamming that WvW has become, but being able to kite people away from it get good condi removal, have the cool down reduced when shatter, have it reudce further when you have alacrity, have it remove 3 condis on cast and it be at 16second cool down made it awesome.

@Lalainnia.3598 said:No need for condi removal buffing dischanter was just nice condi removal because it would also clear boons and keep clearing condis if you happened to not shatter pretty much best of both worlds will just have to get used to it or slot in a different utility/trait which mes actually does have.

It was awesome for condi removal, especially for roaming. As long as you were able to kite people away from it. It lasting for a couple of attacks made it worth while. Removing 3 conditions on cast, removing 3 (iirc) when it used its attack, reduced cool down from trait (16) reduced cool down when shattered, reduced further with alacrity. It was an awesome skill. Useful in both fighting condition builds and fighting boon spam builds :(

I'm in T2 EU (WSR linked with Deso) and while yes you do come across some condition heavy roamers on the whole it's a pretty even mix that I've seen. FB+Scourge/reaper is the most troublesome condition roamer I've had to fight as FB can heal and support the scourge/reaper, insta rez when they down with stab and aegis.

Condi engineer: They generally burst overload you from stealth but after that usually useless, avoid initial burst and counter burst 100-50%, they will run.Condi ranger: Seriously these guys are rarely an issue, bleed, poison and maybe some burns with a sprinkle of immob/cripple. EM+Jaunt can handle it.Condi thief: If it's the perma dodge variety, stealth, get ooc and then slot mantra of distraction to lock them down at the end of their spammed evades.Condi war: Why are you complaining about this? EM+Jaunt = immune to it.Condi guard: Cleansing is on the last applied condition so whenever you get burn, cleanse and you'll be largely safe. Burst where you can and abuse stealth.Condi rev: These guys can burst crazy amounts of torment but largely it's just torment and a few covers. See above about guards and burn.Condi mes: See above about revs. If need be back off and leave the fight. A decent one will escape most of the time with mirage thrust so it's pointless.Condi ele: I...don't think this should qualify an answer, they only really have bleed and burn.Condi necro: If scourge range them as much as you can and just keep tickling them till burstable, then burst and kill. If supported don't try to win the 1v2 as you won't without a very specific build which ironically involves disenchanter to remove boons to prevent a rez. Reaper should be power, just range and kite.

If you're running into an outnumbered fight against a full condition group then you shouldn't fight outnumbered, get your friends and make it an even fight, focus one down and kill, then back off while someone at range kites and keeps them in combat to prevent rezzing the guy, druid is great for this. When you've all reset rinse and repeat till it's a slaughter.

Wait so what’s this build that’s specialized for killing scourges? I’ve not had an issue fighting them so long as it’s 1v2 and not greater numbers than that.

It's only if it's a scourge/reaper

that's supported by a FB or another class that can essentially constantly rez them

should you down them. You use disenchanter to remove stab and make them vulnerable to follow up CC to keep them from rezing only if you're outnumbered though. I find Chrono with chrono phantasma and GW the most effective and the superspeed shatters are a good bonus too. However mesmer has a lot of ways to remove boons and CC so it's not just 1 build or anything.

I came across a FB/Scourge combo yesterday north east of bay. Almost got the scourge down but multiple adds from garri forced me to back off - they chased back to bridge at bluebriar where the adds all gave up and left so it was just them two. For some stupid reason I decided to fight linearly on the bridge through all the mess of aoe but due to mobility and evade frames barely any condi could hit let alone stick. Had to duck under the bridge to reset cooldowns where fight continued - nearly downed the scourge a couple of times but I lack cc in this build (balanced tradeoff taking more survivability at the expense of control) so unable to prevent FB preserving them. The fight ended in a stalemate when they decided to leave.

At no point did I feel excessively pressured by condi - not much challenge to survive - rather the challenge was how to get one of them down and stomp without having much cc.

I'd sooner fight this duo class combination than a good d/p thief plus power mesmer which can wreck you in seconds. Or hell even a FA ele with a couple of other players for support, or an additional glass cannon, which allows them freedom to unleash their absurd damage would scare me more than a small condi group.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Solori.6025" said:You would never run adventurer runes in any serious build, you would never blow 4 dodges for just condis, you would never spam all of jaunt for condies, and you would never run condi removing food in any serious WvW build, and in Spvp where you don't get those options it's worse.

This. This and some more. This.

I'll just keep enjoying the majority of successful or survived encounters on my "non-serious" build then.

Funnily enough my one death yesterday was against another d/p power daredevil in a pseudo "duel", due to overextending and being too formulaic/predictable. Staff really sucks against them and axe 3 is easy to dodge without cc.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:I think we're fine as long as slotting inspiration, which if you want to argue that we don't get enough dmg taking it I'd have entertained that more prior to the recent patch.

Like almost anything in this game you wont survive cleansing everything than taking a second bomb, and I don't think you should on a glass spec.But beyond insp we have so much in mirage as mentioned prior,. I don't suggest it but on top of insp you could take Hoelbrak runes with Renewing Oasis even if it might not be as good since they changed Illusionary Inspiration and cleansing sigil.

Or you can build for stealth to cover Mantra of Resolve cast which is a full wipe and then 6 after.

I'd happily have less dmaage if it meant the removals were as good as other key trait lines for other classes, but that isnt really the case. 40second cool down stealth. Not really that viable to cover the cast time and you INSTANTLY get AOE bombed the moment that you go stealth, so its Stealth + Phase Retreat or something to really be "okay"

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:Does OP say what build s/he is using? Because I’ve switched from running Inspiration to just mantra and haven’t had an issue. Sure, in outnumbered fights I’ll get bombed but heck most of the time the fight is 1v5+ before I’m pressured that much. So I wonder if they’re running a glassy build with low health?

Defo not glass, I have like 20k health, 1.6-1.7k Toughness. Though, i would say you are facing SERIOUSLY bad people if you're able to go 1 Vs 5 against several condi people. That, or they are Condi but not actually attacking.

I never said they were good. Fact of the matter is if I’m winning anything over a 1v2 the people are outrageously bad but that’s pretty standard. And they’re not all condi, most of the time in a group of say 5 there is at least one Scourge, a Mesmer of varying flavor, a ranger of some sort, and at least one Firebrand. Ideally a group like that should take care of little ole me pretty quick but doesn’t always happen. Take last night for example, before reset I was 1v2 against a d/d ele and condi mirage in their camp. I had no issue with condi even though I’m 1v2 in an enemy camp, I had downed the ele a couple times but couldn’t secure the stomp and eventually adds starting streaming into to camp so I died but not necessarily because of condi but overwhelming numbers.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Curunen.8729" said:I'll just keep enjoying the majority of successful or survived encounters on my "non-serious" build then.

Funnily enough my one death yesterday was against another d/p power daredevil in a pseudo "duel", due to overextending and being too formulaic/predictable. Staff really sucks against them and axe 3 is easy to dodge without cc.

I actually prefer staff when fighting them, the mobility helps, the iLock attacks can be hard hitting and you pretty much know what to expect when they go stealth, so they may get the Bask Venom off butt thats about it. I also like the Blind on shatter, can really mess their crap up if timed right.

@"Jace al Thor.6745" said:I never said they were good. Fact of the matter is if I’m winning anything over a 1v2 the people are outrageously bad but that’s pretty standard. And they’re not all condi, most of the time in a group of say 5 there is at least one Scourge, a Mesmer of varying flavor, a ranger of some sort, and at least one Firebrand. Ideally a group like that should take care of little ole me pretty quick but doesn’t always happen. Take last night for example, before reset I was 1v2 against a d/d ele and condi mirage in their camp. I had no issue with condi even though I’m 1v2 in an enemy camp, I had downed the ele a couple times but couldn’t secure the stomp and eventually adds starting streaming into to camp so I died but not necessarily because of condi but overwhelming numbers.

They defo were dreadful, thats the problem with the game these days, every single "balance" update, every single expansion has been done for ONE thing - dumbing down the game. Making it so anyone with a single braincell can play and kill people if they have the right build. The days of this game being skill based were VERY short lived. The most important thing now? Build. Then comes numbers in second place :/

I did manage to beat a Scourge and Daredevil 1 Vs 2 which was cool, only because i came SO close to going down myself. Normally if its groups, you are insta burst with Cc, Conditions and direct damage. Hell, i have had groups of like 4-5+ trying to kill me and actually using long cool down ELITES to do it Lol.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:I'll just keep enjoying the majority of successful or survived encounters on my "non-serious" build then.

Funnily enough my one death yesterday was against another d/p power daredevil in a pseudo "duel", due to overextending and being too formulaic/predictable. Staff really sucks against them and axe 3 is easy to dodge without cc.

I actually prefer staff when fighting them, the mobility helps, the iLock attacks can be hard hitting and you pretty much know what to expect when they go stealth, so they may get the Bask Venom off butt thats about it. I also like the Blind on shatter, can really mess their crap up if timed right.

@"Jace al Thor.6745" said:I never said they were good. Fact of the matter is if I’m winning anything over a 1v2 the people are outrageously bad but that’s pretty standard. And they’re not all condi, most of the time in a group of say 5 there is at least one Scourge, a Mesmer of varying flavor, a ranger of some sort, and at least one Firebrand. Ideally a group like that should take care of little ole me pretty quick but doesn’t always happen. Take last night for example, before reset I was 1v2 against a d/d ele and condi mirage in their camp. I had no issue with condi even though I’m 1v2 in an enemy camp, I had downed the ele a couple times but couldn’t secure the stomp and eventually adds starting streaming into to camp so I died but not necessarily because of condi but overwhelming numbers.

They defo were dreadful, thats the problem with the game these days, every single "balance" update, every single expansion has been done for ONE thing - dumbing down the game. Making it so anyone with a single braincell can play and kill people if they have the right build. The days of this game being skill based were VERY short lived. The most important thing now? Build. Then comes numbers in second place :/

I did manage to beat a Scourge and Daredevil 1 Vs 2 which was cool, only because i came SO close to going down myself. Normally if its groups, you are insta burst with Cc, Conditions and direct damage. Hell, i have had groups of like 4-5+ trying to kill me and actually using long cool down ELITES to do it Lol.

That’s the problem I have with the direction they are taking it. They changed the way traits lines worked so you could spec fully into only 3 lines. I would love to go back just before HoT launched and be able to spec into all the trait lines and they just have an extra slot for the elite you can toggle. That way you can spec into inspiration but can take the last two points and but somewhere actually useful for a nonsupport build. But that won’t ever happen because “it’s too hard for new players to understand” and “it’s harder to balance”

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:That’s the problem I have with the direction they are taking it. They changed the way traits lines worked so you could spec fully into only 3 lines. I would love to go back just before HoT launched and be able to spec into all the trait lines and they just have an extra slot for the elite you can toggle. That way you can spec into inspiration but can take the last two points and but somewhere actually useful for a nonsupport build. But that won’t ever happen because “it’s too hard for new players to understand” and “it’s harder to balance”

Yep. They went with the quantity of player of quality of player and it has been shown time and time again with their changes that were aimed at making it easier to play without needing any skill what so ever. Yeah the old way the talent trees were done were SO much better, Inspiration as an example, all 3 grand masters SUCK for me (solo roamer) but still have to pick one as they force you to go all the way into it.

Anet could make everyone play the same class, with the exact same build, heal, utilities and Elite and they would STILL suck at balancing it lol

[Jace al Thor.6745]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:That’s the problem I have with the direction they are taking it. They changed the way traits lines worked so you could spec fully into only 3 lines. I would love to go back just before HoT launched and be able to spec into all the trait lines and they just have an extra slot for the elite you can toggle. That way you can spec into inspiration but can take the last two points and but somewhere actually useful for a nonsupport build. But that won’t ever happen because “it’s too hard for new players to understand” and “it’s harder to balance”

Yep. They went with the quantity of player of quality of player and it has been shown time and time again with their changes that were aimed at making it easier to play without needing any skill what so ever. Yeah the old way the talent trees were done were SO much better, Inspiration as an example, all 3 grand masters SUCK for me (solo roamer) but still have to pick one as they force you to go all the way into it.

Anet could make everyone play the same class, with the exact same build, heal, utilities and Elite and they would STILL suck at balancing it lol

Well yeah because you’re going to have those people that either can’t use/understand the class mechanics or aren’t as pro as they think they are and fail miserably. The game has been undergoing an identify crisis, it’s supposed to be casual, play what you want(kind of) but until recently has been balanced based off esports. Now they’re splitting the balance but it’s too late with all the power creep that’s been introduced.

[Curunen.8729]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:I'll just keep enjoying the majority of successful or survived encounters on my "non-serious" build then.

Funnily enough my one death yesterday was against another d/p power daredevil in a pseudo "duel", due to overextending and being too formulaic/predictable. Staff really sucks against them and axe 3 is easy to dodge without cc.

I actually prefer staff when fighting them, the mobility helps, the iLock attacks can be hard hitting and you pretty much know what to expect when they go stealth, so they may get the Bask Venom off butt thats about it. I also like the Blind on shatter, can really mess their crap up if timed right.

In a group situation and general roaming I love staff, though in a 1v1 with thief it's not ideal compared with GS to wreck them or Sc/Sw, Sw/Sw or similar for easy counters. BD is good though - I would use that if Evasive Mirror wasn't so fun (nothing like seeing rapid fire half health a ranger or watching a deadeye kill themselves). In any case these four situations where I failed were all power builds - two power warriors and two power thieves.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Jace al Thor.6745" said:Well yeah because you’re going to have those people that either can’t use/understand the class mechanics or aren’t as pro as they think they are and fail miserably. The game has been undergoing an identify crisis, it’s supposed to be casual, play what you want(kind of) but until recently has been balanced based off esports. Now they’re splitting the balance but it’s too late with all the power creep that’s been introduced.

Yep. Its so hard to desribe how this game has been balanced. It started off being "balanced" around the obsessive desire for eSports. Despite the fact many of us pointed out during the beta of the game that S/TPvP would never be good enough to be an eSport but they just plugged their ears saw the hype train that Esports was and decided to push on through, punishing EVERYONE in the process :/

Yep. Now they FINALLY saw that their desire for the game to be an eSport was destined to fail. If only they listened to us back during BETA. As you say, too little. Too late now. The damage has been done. The problem is, people will remember this when they make Guild Wars 3. I honestly dont think they will have as much hype nor players when they finally get around to making it due to everything they have done wrong in this game. Time and time again.

@Curunen.8729 said:In a group situation and general roaming I love staff, though in a 1v1 with thief it's not ideal compared with GS to wreck them or Sc/Sw, Sw/Sw or similar for easy counters. BD is good though - I would use that if Evasive Mirror wasn't so fun (nothing like seeing rapid fire half health a ranger or watching a deadeye kill themselves). In any case these four situations where I failed were all power builds - two power warriors and two power thieves.

I have always preferred Staff to GS when it comes to Thieves, the mobility, Chaos storm and Chaos Armor were always so useful. GS is good if the Thief messes up or you manage to stun him before he goes stealth again, but if they do. GS doesant really offer that much except randomly using Mind Stab or iWave and hoping that you get lucky.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Jace al Thor.6745" said:Well yeah because you’re going to have those people that either can’t use/understand the class mechanics or aren’t as pro as they think they are and fail miserably. The game has been undergoing an identify crisis, it’s supposed to be casual, play what you want(kind of) but until recently has been balanced based off esports. Now they’re splitting the balance but it’s too late with all the power creep that’s been introduced.

Yep. Its so hard to desribe how this game has been balanced. It started off being "balanced" around the obsessive desire for eSports. Despite the fact many of us pointed out during the beta of the game that S/TPvP would never be good enough to be an eSport but they just plugged their ears saw the hype train that Esports was and decided to push on through, punishing EVERYONE in the process :/

Yep. Now they FINALLY saw that their desire for the game to be an eSport was destined to fail. If only they listened to us back during BETA. As you say, too little. Too late now. The damage has been done. The problem is, people will remember this when they make Guild Wars 3. I honestly dont think they will have as much hype nor players when they finally get around to making it due to everything they have done wrong in this game. Time and time again.

@Curunen.8729 said:In a group situation and general roaming I love staff, though in a 1v1 with thief it's not ideal compared with GS to wreck them or Sc/Sw, Sw/Sw or similar for easy counters. BD is good though - I would use that if Evasive Mirror wasn't so fun (nothing like seeing rapid fire half health a ranger or watching a deadeye kill themselves). In any case these four situations where I failed were all power builds - two power warriors and two power thieves.

I have always preferred Staff to GS when it comes to Thieves, the mobility, Chaos storm and Chaos Armor were always so useful. GS is good if the Thief messes up or you manage to stun him before he goes stealth again, but if they do. GS doesant really offer that much except randomly using Mind Stab or iWave and hoping that you get lucky.

Exactly. Had they listened and introduced other modes than JUST conquest it may have been different but no, that’s not possible. When the finally introduced a new mode... it failed. People quickly figured out it wasn’t a PvP match but a PvE match. Had there been capture the flag, team death match(not with the constant respawn), or any game mode that GW1 had it would be different.

And in response to you’re comment about staff. Staff was so much better before they nerfed chaos armor and storm but it’s still good. I would like the old versions back though

[Curunen.8729]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:In a group situation and general roaming I love staff, though in a 1v1 with thief it's not ideal compared with GS to wreck them or Sc/Sw, Sw/Sw or similar for easy counters. BD is good though - I would use that if Evasive Mirror wasn't so fun (nothing like seeing rapid fire half health a ranger or watching a deadeye kill themselves). In any case these four situations where I failed were all power builds - two power warriors and two power thieves.

I have always preferred Staff to GS when it comes to Thieves, the mobility, Chaos storm and Chaos Armor were always so useful. GS is good if the Thief messes up or you manage to stun him before he goes stealth again, but if they do. GS doesant really offer that much except randomly using Mind Stab or iWave and hoping that you get lucky.

I suppose it depends on the thief. A different d/p thief this evening was not much trouble using staff - actually helped to kite/chase/kill together with all the rest of mirage mobility options.

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:And in response to you’re comment about staff. Staff was so much better before they nerfed chaos armor and storm but it’s still good. I would like the old versions back though

God I'd love blind back on chaos armour and also the no ICD version, as overpowered as it was.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:In a group situation and general roaming I love staff, though in a 1v1 with thief it's not ideal compared with GS to wreck them or Sc/Sw, Sw/Sw or similar for easy counters. BD is good though - I would use that if Evasive Mirror wasn't so fun (nothing like seeing rapid fire half health a ranger or watching a deadeye kill themselves). In any case these four situations where I failed were all power builds - two power warriors and two power thieves.

I have always preferred Staff to GS when it comes to Thieves, the mobility, Chaos storm and Chaos Armor were always so useful. GS is good if the Thief messes up or you manage to stun him before he goes stealth again, but if they do. GS doesant really offer that much except randomly using Mind Stab or iWave and hoping that you get lucky.

I suppose it depends on the thief. A different d/p thief this evening was not much trouble using staff - actually helped to kite/chase/kill together with all the rest of mirage mobility options.

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:And in response to you’re comment about staff. Staff was so much better before they nerfed chaos armor and storm but it’s still good. I would like the old versions back though

God I'd love blind back on chaos armour and also the no ICD version, as overpowered as it was.

I never found it overpowers simply because... no one used it outside of unpopular condi builds. Everyone ran Sw/t Gs power shatter. But the powers that be decided we shouldn’t be getting hitting so therefore don’t need blind or retaliation. I miss it.

[trooper.2650]

Pvp main game mode here. Mantra+torch+jaunt is more than plenty to handle 99% of the situations. I sometimes even dare to jaunt on top of a scourge with shades and Wells laying on a node and still come out on top. Of course, you need to know what you are doing, though...

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Jace al Thor.6745" said:Exactly. Had they listened and introduced other modes than JUST conquest it may have been different but no, that’s not possible. When the finally introduced a new mode... it failed. People quickly figured out it wasn’t a PvP match but a PvE match. Had there been capture the flag, team death match(not with the constant respawn), or any game mode that GW1 had it would be different.

And in response to you’re comment about staff. Staff was so much better before they nerfed chaos armor and storm but it’s still good. I would like the old versions back though

Yep, They saw the fact that eSports was the "in thing" and saw money bags. All well and good when your game is designed around eSport. Trying to force your game to be an eSport when its just not designed or balanced around being an eSport. It was always going to fail. Skill > Build. That is what defines most eSports. In this game more often than not its Build > Skill. Though it is also class > Build > Skill to make things all that much worse.

Of course it was better, its still a very solid weapon. Its better to have sustain, mobility and support over just pure power which is what the GS is.

@Curunen.8729 said:I suppose it depends on the thief. A different d/p thief this evening was not much trouble using staff - actually helped to kite/chase/kill together with all the rest of mirage mobility options.

That is very true, if they are ranged then Staff is kinda meh, but against melee. So useful :)

@trooper.2650 said:Pvp main game mode here. Mantra+torch+jaunt is more than plenty to handle 99% of the situations. I sometimes even dare to jaunt on top of a scourge with shades and Wells laying on a node and still come out on top. Of course, you need to know what you are doing, though...

In WvW, that wouldnt be enough for quite a few fights and builds :( Lol