I am ok with thief in general but...Larcenous strike is busted

Jinks.2057 · March 1, 2018

@Aza.2105 said:
@"Jinks.2057" said:You don't identify with Guardian? kitten is that all about? You play the kitten class you identify with it.

No sir I am not a guardian.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/profile/comments/7336/Aza.2105

Legatus.3608 · March 2, 2018

@Imperadordf.2687 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@Imperadordf.2687 said:
@"Airdive.2613" said:Meanwhile guardian hammer needs a nerf because there's no counterplay to a spammable skill that instantly takes away 60% thief's health bar (and deals AoE damage).
This is what you have done, internet.

I don’t know if you’re trolling or serious. But it was a good laugh, thank you.

To the topic:Remove or lower the damage without boons on LS.Increase Infiltrator’s Strike’s cast time by 1/4 seconds.

Those will fix S/D probably, but I think the real problem of thief overall is Shortbow. Too much utility for one weapon.

Remove the damage without boons on LS... so it's an unlockable attack that does no damage and doesn't take boons? Lol, that'll fix LS for sure.

Have you people tried walking to the side? Serious question.

Thief gets sb5 because mobility is the one thing the class is supposed to be good at. Without sb5 there is no thief in this game.

Even then, anet in their infinite wisdom have decided that the almighty mesmer should have a spammable mirage cloak dash on sword, as well as blink and portal and jaunt, which completely negates anything thief does with sb shadowstep and steal. So you can nerf sb5 when mirage sword 1 gets deleted.

First things first, Larcenous DOESN’T DEAL ZERO DAMAGE WHEN THE ENEMY HAS NO BOONS.

You keep saying that, but I’m not sure that you ever looked at Larcenous’ base damage and power coefficients.Here;

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Larcenous_Strike

You seem to misunderstand my suggestion, I said lower or remove the damage without boons effect, I didn’t say remove the boonsteal. And even without boons, the damage increase isn’t that much, it’s %20. Just lower it to %10 and be done with it.

Secondly, you can’t sometimes just walk sideways to dodge FS. Especially when you are casting a skill and thief uses FS, there’s almost no way you can dodge it.Thieves who know that their enemy is capable of dodging their FS, they combo it with steal.As far as I know, most thieves use FS before they use steal, to do more damage with steal, along with gaining access to LS.

For shortbow, it does so many things at once, in my opinion. Auto attack that hits many targets? Check. 300 Radius cleave that does respectable damage? Check. Spammable evade while crippling enemy? Check. Unblockable poison field with daze? Check. 600 Range Z-Axis teleport? Check. It needs to have a weakness. It’s a utility weapon, I get it, but it still does other things while being one of the best utility weapons in the game.

I hate when Thief players bring up Mesmers to justify their power, and Mesmer players bring Thieves. It’s just an unending circle I find it rather funny sometimes.

Uhh bro, show me the part where I said LS does zero damage when enemies have no boons? I'm responding to YOUR COMMENT saying to, and I directly quote:

Remove or lower the damage without boons on LS.

If you say to REMOVE the damage without boonsteal on LS, you are saying it WILL NOT DEAL DAMAGE after you change it when it doesn't boonsteal. Lowering the damage, which you also suggested, is not the same as removing it. If you had said "remove the EXTRA damage" or "remove the INCREASED damage", you would be correct. That isn't what you said so you aren't. Obviously I understand what you meant now that we've gone over it, so we can leave it at that. But, the damage LS deals is about ACTUALLY ONE THIRD of a typical burst specs burst damage, and I don't mean specs with long cooldowns on their burst. Several builds can nearly spam that kind of burst, some bad some good, and yes mesmer is one of them.

And yes, you CAN avoid FS hitting you by walking in a certain direction, WALKING, NOT DODGING. You can fucking free cast against FS by walking in a certain direction at the right time. Yes thief can counter that by using steal at the end of his FS, steal has a 20s cd and he has to dodge something to proc the trait. Are you saying a spec with "too much damage" is going to pop a 20s cd to hit you for 3k, to have THE CHANCE to then hit you for 7k, and then STOP TO DODGE SOMETHING, so that he can then use his steal again to hit you with a 3k attack again, to again have THE CHANCE to hit you for 7k again for a total of 20k over what? 6 seconds, and that's assuming the thief connects with all 4 attacks because you can't find your dodge or heal button? You do realize 20k isn't even enough to down many builds and it took the thief nearly 6 seconds to do all that over 4 attacks and two uses of steal right? You call that a fucking busted ability when people are literally oneshotting enemies from full regularly in pvp on REAL burst specs? This conversation is a fucking joke.

And yeah, mesmer is busted and you don't like thief using mesmer as an argument. I'm telling you I'll give up SB5 when mirage loses cloak sword 1, because it does exist whether you like it or not.

You seem to have some reading comprehension problems, IDK what your deal is.

warherox.7943 · March 2, 2018

@Legatus.3608 said:
@warherox.7943 said:Remove initiative and give the weapon skills actual cooldowns. Otherwise those skills shouldn't be hitting for 7k

It's kind of a lie to say that larcenous strike is spammable tho. They have to actually connect with both skills twice, which eats 12 initiative even if they hit, and takes several seconds of really obvious attacking by skills that are avoided BY WALKING SIDEWAYS.

No, this skill is fine. If you want to nerf something about SD thief this is not it. I will not agree. It is 100% your own fault for standing there eating attacks for 4 seconds in a row without using anything to avoid it. Shatter can do this much damage in a single attack and is much less obviously telegraphed.

Shatter also needs to be nerfed. But still, as long as thief has initiative, they are going to be problematic.

Legatus.3608 · March 2, 2018

@warherox.7943 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@warherox.7943 said:Remove initiative and give the weapon skills actual cooldowns. Otherwise those skills shouldn't be hitting for 7k

It's kind of a lie to say that larcenous strike is spammable tho. They have to actually connect with both skills twice, which eats 12 initiative even if they hit, and takes several seconds of really obvious attacking by skills that are avoided BY WALKING SIDEWAYS.

No, this skill is fine. If you want to nerf something about SD thief this is not it. I will not agree. It is 100% your own fault for standing there eating attacks for 4 seconds in a row without using anything to avoid it. Shatter can do this much damage in a single attack and is much less obviously telegraphed.

Shatter also needs to be nerfed. But still, as long as thief has initiative, they are going to be problematic.

Thief has had initiative since day 1 and it typically is not problematic. During the scourge + firebrand + mirage thing thief was not problematic. There are tons of thief builds that are trash that use initiative. There have been plenty of patches where initiative + thief was not problematic, you're flat out objectively wrong. Even now people see more than 1 thief on their team and they instantly give up "gg" before the game even starts. No other class gets that "we have 2 X class omg gg" treatment. This debate is beyond stupid, its obvious certain people have an agenda against thief for some reason or another and aren't objectively pointing out valid issues.

warherox.7943 · March 2, 2018

@Legatus.3608 said:
@warherox.7943 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@warherox.7943 said:Remove initiative and give the weapon skills actual cooldowns. Otherwise those skills shouldn't be hitting for 7k

It's kind of a lie to say that larcenous strike is spammable tho. They have to actually connect with both skills twice, which eats 12 initiative even if they hit, and takes several seconds of really obvious attacking by skills that are avoided BY WALKING SIDEWAYS.

No, this skill is fine. If you want to nerf something about SD thief this is not it. I will not agree. It is 100% your own fault for standing there eating attacks for 4 seconds in a row without using anything to avoid it. Shatter can do this much damage in a single attack and is much less obviously telegraphed.

Shatter also needs to be nerfed. But still, as long as thief has initiative, they are going to be problematic.

Thief has had initiative since day 1 and it typically is not problematic. During the scourge + firebrand + mirage thing thief was not problematic. There are tons of thief builds that are trash that use initiative. There have been plenty of patches where initiative + thief was not problematic, you're flat out objectively wrong. Even now people see more than 1 thief on their team and they instantly give up "gg" before the game even starts. No other class gets that "we have 2 X class omg gg" treatment. This debate is beyond stupid, its obvious certain people have an agenda against thief for some reason or another and aren't objectively pointing out valid issues.

People don't have an agenda against thief, they just want thief and the game as a whole to be balanced. Removing initiative and giving the weapon skills actual cooldowns would go a long way towards balancing thief. Thief did dictate the meta for a very long time in PvP, by the way.

BeepBoopBop.5403 · March 2, 2018

@warherox.7943 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@warherox.7943 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@warherox.7943 said:Remove initiative and give the weapon skills actual cooldowns. Otherwise those skills shouldn't be hitting for 7k

It's kind of a lie to say that larcenous strike is spammable tho. They have to actually connect with both skills twice, which eats 12 initiative even if they hit, and takes several seconds of really obvious attacking by skills that are avoided BY WALKING SIDEWAYS.

No, this skill is fine. If you want to nerf something about SD thief this is not it. I will not agree. It is 100% your own fault for standing there eating attacks for 4 seconds in a row without using anything to avoid it. Shatter can do this much damage in a single attack and is much less obviously telegraphed.

Shatter also needs to be nerfed. But still, as long as thief has initiative, they are going to be problematic.

Thief has had initiative since day 1 and it typically is not problematic. During the scourge + firebrand + mirage thing thief was not problematic. There are tons of thief builds that are trash that use initiative. There have been plenty of patches where initiative + thief was not problematic, you're flat out objectively wrong. Even now people see more than 1 thief on their team and they instantly give up "gg" before the game even starts. No other class gets that "we have 2 X class omg gg" treatment. This debate is beyond stupid, its obvious certain people have an agenda against thief for some reason or another and aren't objectively pointing out valid issues.

People don't have an agenda against thief, they just want thief and the game as a whole to be balanced. Removing initiative and giving the weapon skills actual cooldowns would go a long way towards balancing thief. Thief did dictate the meta for a very long time in PvP, by the way.

That's like, your opinion man. Thief has been balanced around no CD weapon skills and initiative since day 1, a change as extreme as introducing cooldowns would require weapon skill rebalancing that completely flips the table we've been working on since day 1. It's been years, that's enough time for everyone to expect that thief can spam HS and be able to counter it. Have not heard initiative system QQ in forever lol.

Thief never influences the entire meta. If anything the current meta s/d build is a result of the surrounding boon meta that s/d can counter. I guess thief made every class go celestial preHoT too? And not because those cele builds were busted? It has never even been remotely viable to stack thieves on one team such as other classes were able to (DD ele, bunker Chrono, viper revenant, scourge).

Airdive.2613 · March 2, 2018

@warherox.7943 said:Removing initiative and giving the weapon skills actual cooldowns would go a long way towards balancing thief.

Thief is balanced around initiative. The repeated use of a single skill is a forced cooldown on other skills.

Legatus.3608 · March 2, 2018

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
@warherox.7943 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@warherox.7943 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@warherox.7943 said:Remove initiative and give the weapon skills actual cooldowns. Otherwise those skills shouldn't be hitting for 7k

It's kind of a lie to say that larcenous strike is spammable tho. They have to actually connect with both skills twice, which eats 12 initiative even if they hit, and takes several seconds of really obvious attacking by skills that are avoided BY WALKING SIDEWAYS.

No, this skill is fine. If you want to nerf something about SD thief this is not it. I will not agree. It is 100% your own fault for standing there eating attacks for 4 seconds in a row without using anything to avoid it. Shatter can do this much damage in a single attack and is much less obviously telegraphed.

Shatter also needs to be nerfed. But still, as long as thief has initiative, they are going to be problematic.

Thief has had initiative since day 1 and it typically is not problematic. During the scourge + firebrand + mirage thing thief was not problematic. There are tons of thief builds that are trash that use initiative. There have been plenty of patches where initiative + thief was not problematic, you're flat out objectively wrong. Even now people see more than 1 thief on their team and they instantly give up "gg" before the game even starts. No other class gets that "we have 2 X class omg gg" treatment. This debate is beyond stupid, its obvious certain people have an agenda against thief for some reason or another and aren't objectively pointing out valid issues.

People don't have an agenda against thief, they just want thief and the game as a whole to be balanced. Removing initiative and giving the weapon skills actual cooldowns would go a long way towards balancing thief. Thief did dictate the meta for a very long time in PvP, by the way.

That's like, your opinion man. Thief has been balanced around no CD weapon skills and initiative since day 1, a change as extreme as introducing cooldowns would require weapon skill rebalancing that completely flips the table we've been working on since day 1. It's been years, that's enough time for everyone to expect that thief can spam HS and be able to counter it. Have not heard initiative system QQ in forever lol.

Thief never influences the entire meta. If anything the current meta s/d build is a result of the surrounding boon meta that s/d can counter. I guess thief made every class go celestial preHoT too? And not because those cele builds were busted? It has never even been remotely viable to stack thieves on one team such as other classes were able to (DD ele, bunker Chrono, viper revenant, scourge).

It was not too long ago that people were winning AT's with 4 mirage's either. But as soon as someone sees 2 thieves on their team "someone change theif or gg i sit afk due to instaloss by class select".

/s Yeah man, thief is like totally dictating the meta though.

IDK who they payed off to come up with this garbage.

warherox.7943 · March 3, 2018

@Legatus.3608 said:
@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:
@warherox.7943 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@warherox.7943 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@warherox.7943 said:Remove initiative and give the weapon skills actual cooldowns. Otherwise those skills shouldn't be hitting for 7k