Dagger Problem

[Obtena.7952]

Again, you can't simply 'choose' where you want your statements to be correct and ignore the rest of the game; the answer is still the same: You have choice. Dagger being 'bad' isn't just a function of everything BUT OW because you want it to. OW performance is taken into consideration, even if you don't think it should.

[XECOR.2814]

Well i thought even a new player knew that everything literally everything works in open world. I can kill everything by auto attack with lvl20 weapon just in much larger amount of time. And you may notice that majority of the game is end game content not the story mode and ow. Players stick for end game content not ow. And please go back to your main profession because people like you have made the class stay behind others over many updates and patches. Over the years when every profession got tweaking, necro stood the same and received nerfs in every aspect with very little additions to its mechanisms which resulted in this dysfunctional class we have where we have to choose traits which does not go well with our build and have weapon skills that don't go with build no matter how much you try to synchronize them.

[Jinn Galen.2468]

Dagger 2 should have the same channeling time as Axe 2. Dagger 2 is 3 seconds while Axe 2 is 1.75 seconds. 3 seconds is just absurd along with the fact that Axe 2 deals more damage from better range and is on a lower cooldown.

[Anchoku.8142]

Dark Pact now requires a condi transfer, which there are ways to do but are clunky and usually reserved for more serious stacks of harm while the bind can quickly be broken. It is not like Necro has a lot of stun-lock capability. Necro's 2 weapon-based transfers, staff and OH dagger, are not that great for capitalizing on a bound opponent for that split second, either. There is that passive transfer, too, which I use on condi builds, and the Signet. Usually, I would just eat the bleed or use it to increase heal on Consume Conditions, which also has a cast time when, miraculously, I have no conditions.

The siphon heals at the cost of eating damage while using it or cancelling.

MH dagger is not bad, not like axe was, but the self-bleed really is a nerf and dagger's niche is limited by greatsword and the siphon. Dagger is not entirely a power weapon anymore but definitely not a condi weapon or healing support weapon.

Change the bleeds to a boon corrupt and it will be off my naughty list.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Anchoku.8142 said:Change the bleeds to a boon corrupt and it will be off my naughty list.

Please... No more boon corrupt. Initially the necromancer had as many boon strip than he had boon corrupt. Boon corrupt lost all it's strategical use due to the fact that it was generalized. Asking for more boon corrupt is asking for more complaints from others. NO MORE!!!

[Flumek.9043]

I havent played seriously since 2 years, just lurking here and there.

Dagger was good 2012-2015 in zerker 1-shot meta.It ALWAYS was a clunky 1111111 spam weapon , BUT as long as you were 1111-ing trading blows = YOU WERE WINING. Classes had less defense, so it was actually a "platformer positioning" game of how do you manage to stay on the enemy.The #2 had its use as stealth channel, but for overall value, you could delete the skill and nobody would notice.The #3 was a 99.9% guarenteed 1-shot.

Aaaand you were still inferior to a 14k hp base thief.So with all the powercreep (Chill movement nerfs, more healing sustain, more cleanse, resistance, low CD get out of jail cards, random blind+block+CC ...) THERE IS 0.000000 way a 2s cooldown and 10% healing increase will make this weapon useful. The flow of the game changed from smart positioning with 1-shot mindgames into who spams 20s CDs more efficiently.

It needs a rework , and the worst kind which Anet doesnt want to do - faster animations.Game mechanics - ele dagger heals PBAOE , while necro needs TARGET + LOS REQUIREMENT TO HEAL.Since balance is done by 2 keyboard turning devs dueling at keep............. lets say buying dagger skins is a bad investment strategy. cya gl

[Obtena.7952]

@XECOR.2814 said:Well i thought even a new player knew that everything literally everything works in open world. I can kill everything by auto attack with lvl20 weapon just in much larger amount of time. And you may notice that majority of the game is end game content not the story mode and ow. Players stick for end game content not ow. And please go back to your main profession because people like you have made the class stay behind others over many updates and patches. Over the years when every profession got tweaking, necro stood the same and received nerfs in every aspect with very little additions to its mechanisms which resulted in this dysfunctional class we have where we have to choose traits which does not go well with our build and have weapon skills that don't go with build no matter how much you try to synchronize them.

I don't see what any of that has to do with the fact that you can choose weapons to optimize your play, which holds true for any game mode for any class, including those that you feel don't count for anything. Everything works in OW PVE? That stands for any game mode ... everything 'works' everywhere, yet for some reason, your criteria for what works in everything BUT OW PVE includes 'being good'. That's a purely cherry picked argument to validate your position and nothing else. You can't exclude OW PVE performance from any justification to change something, just because you have invented the facts that it doesn't matter and it's not the majority and yada yada.

The problems with dagger are thematic; not specific to any game mode. So justifying fixes because 'bad' in PVP makes little sense on many levels; primarily that we have choice to pick weapons most suited to strategies that work in PVP if the class supports them. Dagger weakly supports a long duration sustain strategy .. that's NOT a strategy I would recommend in PVP or WvW in the first place.

Like it or not, long duration sustain playstyles are REALLY good for OW PVE, primarily in HoT and PoF. It might be convenient for you to ignore that, but it doesn't make your argument that dagger is 'bad' any more true.

It's nonsense to suggest changing the dagger so it's suitable for a playmode where other weapons do it better. That's why choices exist ... because Anet knows this already. If there is a change to the dagger, it should be to make it BETTER at what it does now, not less crap for what it's not good at doing.

[XECOR.2814]

OMG how can you have so little brain i feel bad for you. YOU CAN KILL EVERYTHING IN OW WITH ANY BUILD=SUCCESS yes it can also be optimized but i will not dare to ask because they can see i am from class=necromancer=opinions doesnt matter. Also since everything dies without effort so there is nothing to complain because i am not an elitist who wants things to die in particular interval of time. BUT when you jump into pvp and wvw NOTHING dies with it=FAILURE. I think i am talking to a 12 yr old and trying to explain something. At this point you are picking on the language i use to represent my thoughts to counter my argument and not commenting on subject.

[Obtena.7952]

@XECOR.2814 said:OMG how can you have so little brain i feel bad for you. YOU CAN KILL EVERYTHING IN OW WITH ANY BUILD=SUCCESS yes it can also be optimized but i will not dare to ask because they can see i am from class=necromancer=opinions doesnt matter. Also since everything dies without effort so there is nothing to complain because i am not an elitist who wants things to die in particular interval of time. BUT when you jump into pvp and wvw NOTHING dies with it=FAILURE. I think i am talking to a 12 yr old and trying to explain something. At this point you are picking on the language i use to represent my thoughts to counter my argument and not commenting on subject.

If you aren't an elitist and think performance doesn't matter in PVE, then how do you explain you're completely opposite position that you need dagger to be good in PVP because of ... performance? So performance matters in PVP because you can fail ... but you can't fail in PVE because you can fight a mob in unoptimized setups for hours to kill it? That's just dismissive and dishonest. I'm pretty sure that while people might be less inclined to completely optimize their OW PVE builds ... they still don't take random gimp choices because 'they work'. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. People doing PVE don't want crap choices just like you don't ... but for some reason, your concerns matter, theirs do not ... got it.

No, you aren't an elitist ... you're just an opportunist. I have commented on the subject throughout every post; buffing dagger because of PVP performance doesn't make any sense because there are better choices. You aren't telling us the truth here is what is happening. If dagger is so bad and you know you have better choices ... you already know you have a solution. The truth is that don't want to lose your massive LF regen that you get from Dagger auto by choosing more appropriate weapons in PVP. It's the same disingenuous approach people wanted to add a bleed to it because of Scourge. They wanted it all and made it sound like they they started at the bottom of the barrel to justify it.

The most comical part of your thread is that you are justifying dagger buffs because of PVP? Last I checked, necro is no where NEAR the bottom of the PVP or WvW chain right now ... the idea that dagger needs to be even better because of necros PVP performance indicates to me that somehow, necros are wanting in those areas of the game? Come of it.

[XECOR.2814]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:OMG how can you have so little brain i feel bad for you. YOU CAN KILL EVERYTHING IN OW WITH ANY BUILD=SUCCESS yes it can also be optimized but i will not dare to ask because they can see i am from class=necromancer=opinions doesnt matter. Also since everything dies without effort so there is nothing to complain because i am not an elitist who wants things to die in particular interval of time. BUT when you jump into pvp and wvw NOTHING dies with it=FAILURE. I think i am talking to a 12 yr old and trying to explain something. At this point you are picking on the language i use to represent my thoughts to counter my argument and not commenting on subject.

If you aren't an elitist and think performance doesn't matter in PVE, then how do you explain you're completely opposite position that you need dagger to be good in PVP because of ... performance? So performance matters in PVP because you can fail ... but you can't fail in PVE because you can fight a mob in unoptimized setups for hours to kill it? That's just dismissive and dishonest. I'm pretty sure that while people might be less inclined to completely optimize their OW PVE builds ... they still don't take random kitten choices because 'they work'. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. People doing PVE don't want crap choices just like you don't ... but for some reason, your concerns matter, theirs do not ... got it.

No, you aren't an elitist ... you're just an opportunist. I have commented on the subject throughout every post; buffing dagger because of PVP performance doesn't make any sense because there are better choices. You aren't telling us the truth here is what is happening. If dagger is so bad and you know you have better choices ... you already know you have a solution. The truth is that don't want to lose your massive LF regen that you get from Dagger auto by choosing more appropriate weapons in PVP. It's the same disingenuous approach people wanted to add a bleed to it because of Scourge. They wanted it all and made it sound like they they started at the bottom of the barrel to justify it.

The most comical part of your thread is that you are justifying dagger buffs because of PVP? Last I checked, necro is no where NEAR the bottom of the PVP or WvW chain right now ... the idea that dagger needs to be even better because of necros PVP performance indicates to me that somehow, necros are wanting in those areas of the game? Come of it.

I get the whole point of you arguing here is to put down the class and not even think about any changes because you get wrecked in low level pvp with whatever class you are playing. Basically you have very low skill level in my honest opinion or you play one of the more boon spamming class and get wrecked with boon corruption. And i dont think you understand the term Elitist in this context obviously i dont care if dagger can kill a player in 10 secs or 2mins as long as it CAN. You tried to show your genuine opinion while masking your inner salt but it is now showing. If you don't main necro don't come here arguing what the problem with its choices are and are not and why others suggestions are dishonest lol. And last time i checked the no. of scourge in the top 250 are not that high or average haha. I gave an honest suggestion here to buff power necro to make it viable while not buffing condi scourge and here you come to argue about how scourge is op and all that saltiness. And you have some huge trust issues because i have never seen a person who tries to read between the lines so much even when i consistently said that this is in regards to power builds only. Get yourself back in game, go in pvp, wvw, run in aoe and cry more.

[Lahmia.2193]

If we applied your logic to balance Obtena, Axe and Greatsword would still be as they were when launched.

[Obtena.7952]

@Lahmia.2193 said:If we applied your logic to balance Obtena, Axe and Greatsword would still be as they were when launched.

That makes no sense. You're going to have to explain yourself if you're just going to grab something out of the 'random statement bag'.

It doesn't make any sense to justify a buff to dagger because it's a terrible weapon in PVP/WvW. Just use the weapons that aren't terrible in PVP/WvW. That's WHY Anet has given us choice of weapons. OP hasn't really thought this through. Dagger isn't bad because it's not good in PVP ... so buffing it because of PVP makes no sense.

@XECOR.2814 said:I get the whole point of you arguing here is to put down the class and not even think about any changes because you get wrecked in low level pvp with whatever class you are playing. Basically you have very low skill level in my honest opinion or you play one of the more boon spamming class and get wrecked with boon corruption. And i dont think you understand the term Elitist in this context obviously i dont care if dagger can kill a player in 10 secs or 2mins as long as it CAN. You tried to show your genuine opinion while masking your inner salt but it is now showing. If you don't main necro don't come here arguing what the problem with its choices are and are not and why others suggestions are dishonest lol. And last time i checked the no. of scourge in the top 250 are not that high or average haha. I gave an honest suggestion here to buff power necro to make it viable while not buffing condi scourge and here you come to argue about how scourge is op and all that saltiness. And you have some huge trust issues because i have never seen a person who tries to read between the lines so much even when i consistently said that this is in regards to power builds only. Get yourself back in game, go in pvp, wvw, run in aoe and cry more.

Looks like you ran out steam and decided to start chirping me. Let's get back to topic. Dagger needs buffs? Not because of Necro PVP/WvW performance. Try again. I don't cry when I PVP/WVW with Necro ... because I know how to make good choices and pick strategies that win. So do lots of other people. That's why their are so many necros in WVW/PVP recently. You should try it.

[Lahmia.2193]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:If we applied your logic to balance Obtena, Axe and Greatsword would still be as they were when launched.

That makes no sense. You're going to have to explain yourself if you're just going to grab something out of the 'random insult bag'.

It doesn't make any sense to justify a buff to dagger because it's a terrible weapon in PVP/WvW. Just use the weapons that aren't terrible in PVP/WvW. That's WHY Anet has given us choice of weapons. OP hasn't really thought this through. Dagger isn't bad because it's not good in PVP ... so buffing it because of PVP makes no sense.

Because without buffs both weapons wouldn't be used, just as dagger isn't used, outside of anything resembling competitive play.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't get why that's a problem; lots of weapons don't get used in competitive play over all the classes; that's not an exception that needs rectification, it's normal. There isn't some driving force that requires a weapon is used in competitive play. If someone is going to justify a weapon getting a buff because it's not used in competitive play, then they need to explain why it's necessary that every weapon has a reason to be used in competitive play when there are already other more appropriate weapons choices.

I mean, it doesn't even make sense that a weapon that provides long duration sustain even be used in competitive play; that's not a winning strategy in those play modes in the first place. Dagger ain't perfect, but it certainly doesn't need buffs because of PVP/WvW. Think about it ... it gets a buff and what ... all the sudden it's better than the other options we have? CMON. Let's get serious. If dagger was at all to be at the same level as other good weapon options, it would be so much work it wouldn't even be worth it because options that are better already exist. It doesn't make sense.

[Anchoku.8142]

I agree with Flumek. It is not just power creep that has reduced dagger's effectiveness. The new elite specializations and core profession adjustments have trivialized dagger's mechanics.

• The auto-attack could use a more damage.
• The channel is not strong enough to compensate for its weaknesses.
• The self-bleed is not worth the two boon corruption and bind. If trading the self-bleeds for another boon corrupt is too much corruption, then trade the bleeds for something a power build can use like a chill, weakness, or a taunt.

It would be great if MH dagger worked as well as it used to with war horn, which has no condi transfer.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:I agree with Flumek. It is not just power creep that has reduced dagger's effectiveness. The new elite specializations and core profession adjustments have trivialized dagger's mechanics.

• The auto-attack could use a more damage.
• The channel is not strong enough to compensate for its weaknesses.
• The self-bleed is not worth the two boon corruption and bind. If trading the self-bleeds for another boon corrupt is too much corruption, then trade the bleeds for something a power build can use like a chill, weakness, or a taunt.

It would be great if MH dagger worked as well as it used to with war horn, which has no condi transfer.

Except that in Anet's dev's mind, the self bleed is not something that the necromancer "pay", but something that he "gain". It's a double damage buff, one that let your channeled skill #2 heal or damage for more and one that you can send to your foe afterward. At least I think that's how they sold this sh*t to us when they released it.

From the very beginning, to be an "ok" weapon, the dagger only needed a slight increase in AA attack speed and a longer range and shorter cast time for both #2 and #3. Adding complicated situational effect and boon corruption on those skills didn't helped those skills because it wasn't what they needed. It just made it seem like they cared and they left it at that.

When a skill have a cast time which is to long for a crappy effect, the idea is not to add more effect. This only make those extra effect has much of a waste than the core effects. A skill with a cast time which is to long need a shorter cast time so that it can land. QoL should be the very first thing done when balancing a skill. The necromancer is awfull in regard of QoL, anet just add more and more effect on skills which would be good if they could just land but can't due to their cast time. More effects on skills that struggle to hit is just plain stupid balance choice.

[Kiroshima.8497]

I'd prefer the dagger auto to not have more damage by default, but instead it needs life force on the first hit of the chain, and then do a siphon on the final hit if the target is bleeding.

Dagger 3 should grant stability, 1 stack for 3 seconds, +1 per boon corrupted.Dagger 2 is fine with the above dagger 3 change (aka you could actually use it).

Dagger 4 should probably be a wave type affect, as a swarm surges fowards (like CoR but not for damage) causing bleeding and transfering 2 conditions instead of 3, and dagger 5 should be a PBAoE.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Let's not add more "if the target is bleeding" effects onto a weapon that has no method of making that happen, m'kay?

[Jinn Galen.2468]

So obtena, before the GS and axe buffs that made them good in pvp (GS is arguable. I don't think it's good but that's me) what were the "good" weapon choices for pvp eh? MH Dagger is of course not good. So what weapons does that leave necro?

[Obtena.7952]

@"Jinn Galen.2468" said:So obtena, before the GS and axe buffs that made them good in pvp (GS is arguable. I don't think it's good but that's me) what were the "good" weapon choices for pvp eh? MH Dagger is of course not good. So what weapons does that leave necro?

I don't know ... what's the point you are trying to make? Necro has lots of good PVP weapons it can choose from NOW. We aren't talking about what happened 2 years ago or whatever. Are you trying to imply that in the past, Necros had bad PVP weapons, so dagger needs a buff relevant to PVP/WVW now? That's rather absurd.

[Jinn Galen.2468]

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't know ... what's the point you are trying to make? Necro has lots of good PVP weapons it can choose from NOW. We aren't talking about what happened 2 years ago or whatever. Are you trying to imply that in the past, Necros had bad PVP weapons, so dagger needs a buff relevant to PVP/WVW now? That's rather absurd.

Because that logic of don't buff X for PvP because there are other choices is stupid. Why? If that's the reasoning Anet implemented from the get go, axe would probably still suck like lahmia said because even before axe became good you could have just used scepter, staff with warhorn and OH dagger as off-hands. Yeah. So much for diversity in weaponry. Every weapon deserves to have a spot in a game mode so players could use what fits the playstyle they want. Personally, I don't like GS for power reaper. Too slow but dagger skills besides auto attacks suck. So I don't really have much of a choice.

[Obtena.7952]

@Jinn Galen.2468 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't know ... what's the point you are trying to make? Necro has lots of good PVP weapons it can choose from NOW. We aren't talking about what happened 2 years ago or whatever. Are you trying to imply that in the past, Necros had bad PVP weapons, so dagger needs a buff relevant to PVP/WVW now? That's rather absurd.

Because that logic of don't buff X for PvP because there are other choices is stupid. Why?

If that's the reasoning Anet implemented from the get go

, axe would probably still suck like lahmia said because even before axe became good you could have just used scepter, staff with warhorn and OH dagger as off-hands. Yeah. So much for diversity in weaponry. Every weapon deserves to have a spot in a game mode so players could use what fits the playstyle they want. Personally, I don't like GS for power reaper. Too slow but dagger skills besides auto attacks suck. So I don't really have much of a choice.

I highlighted the relevant part ... you have assumed Anet buffed those weapons because of PVP. You don't know that; a weapon getting buffed does not immediately imply it was because of PVP/WVW or even for reasons of performance. In fact, many changes are conceptual and if those changes result in good performance in a particular game mode, it's simply coincidental.

The fact still stands; if 'because bad in PVP' is truly a valid reason for Anet to buff a weapon, then why after 5 years and multiple, dedicated balance patchs, do we have weapons that aren't good in PVP? You got it wrong. Weapons are not necessarily balanced because they don't perform well in any particular game mode; that CAN'T be the case because it would mean all weapons are relevant for EVERY game mode. Jeez, we have some weapons that aren't really good in ANY game mode. The reality of the game is so far from your thinking, it's not reasonable to think it could be true. Maybe you come back in 5 years, that might be true, but I would bet it isn't because it's clearly not Anet's priority. If it was, we wouldn't be here discussing it.

Furthermore, what you like or dislike doesn't mean you don't have choice; you HAVE actually made a choice there; to purposefully exclude a relevant weapon from your repertoire. It's not a good choice, but you have made it.

[Lahmia.2193]

@Obtena.7952 said:Jeez, we have weapons that aren't really good in ANY game mode.

Dagger mainhand being one of them. Which is why people want it to be buffed and why this thread was created. To discuss what should be done.

[Obtena.7952]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Jeez, we have weapons that aren't really good in ANY game mode.

Dagger mainhand being one of them. Which is why people want it to be buffed and why this thread was created. To discuss what should be done.

That's not true though so ... again, maybe you think it's relevant to ignore parts of the game to justify your thinking, but that doesn't make it true. Op was complaining about dagger in PVP/WVW as well ...

besides, this might seem outrageous to you but again ... Anet isn't balance to meta anywhere ... so why would anyone assume that 'not good in any game mode' is a relevant reason to buff it? THink about this ... what does Anet do with warrior? They have almost ALL the weapons, but there are just three game modes. So if every weapon needs to be good in every game mode, then each game mode need about ... 4-5 weapons to be good in each for warrior? That's just unrealistic ... that line of thinking falls right apart. That's not how weapons are changed. It can't be and it doesn't NEED to be. That would be a luxury in the best case, a nice to have in the worst.

You're whole argument assumes dagger needs to be a 'good' weapon (good in quotes because your metapushing) for SOME game mode. Assuming it's not good because it's not meta anywhere (which seems to be what you are saying), then I would say it doesn't ... The real assessment is that dagger has a reason to be and does it well. The question is not if dagger is good, but if that reason to be (or its concept) is useful.

This is really simple; dagger is a sustain weapon; it has the most LF regen, a direct life siphon and some kind of weird corrupting immobilize ... you tell me where that could POSSIBLY fit in the meta where competitive PVE is about long-term damage output and team sharing, where PVP/WVW is about burst damage, team sharing and CC. It doesn't, and nothing you could do with that weapon would ever make it fit 'good' in those game modes without reworking it completely right from the concept. Anet could do that, but despite you and others continued ignorance to it's usefulness in OW PVE, I find it hard to think of what Anet's motivation to do so would be.

[Lahmia.2193]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Jeez, we have weapons that aren't really good in ANY game mode.

Dagger mainhand being one of them. Which is why people want it to be buffed and why this thread was created. To discuss what should be done.

That's not true though so ... again, maybe you think it's relevant to ignore parts of the game to justify your thinking, but that doesn't make it true. Op was complaining about dagger in PVP/WVW as well ...

besides, this might seem outrageous to you but again ... Anet isn't balance to meta anywhere ... so why would anyone assume that 'not good in any game mode' is a relevant reason to buff it? THink about this ... what does Anet do with warrior? They have almost ALL the weapons, but there are just three game modes. So if every weapon needs to be good in every game mode, then each game mode need about ... 4-5 weapons to be good in each for warrior? That's just unrealistic ... that line of thinking falls right apart. That's not how weapons are changed. It can't be and it doesn't NEED to be. That would be a luxury in the best case, a nice to have in the worst.

You're whole argument assumes dagger needs to be a 'good' weapon (good in quotes because your metapushing) for SOME game mode. Assuming it's not good because it's not meta anywhere (which seems to be what you are saying), then I would say it doesn't ... The real assessment is that dagger has a reason to be and does it well. The question is not if dagger is good, but if that reason to be (or its concept) is useful.

This is really simple; dagger is a sustain weapon; it has the most LF regen, a direct life siphon and some kind of weird corrupting immobilize ... you tell me where that could POSSIBLY fit in the meta where competitive PVE is about long-term damage output and team sharing, where PVP/WVW is about burst damage, team sharing and CC. It doesn't, and nothing you could do with that weapon would ever make it fit 'good' in those game modes without reworking it completely right from the concept. Anet could do that, but despite you and others continued ignorance to it's usefulness in OW PVE, I find it hard to think of what Anet's motivation to do so would be.

So what if say they were to add, either via Quickening Thirst or directly, the ability to share the healing from Life Siphon with up to 5 nearby allies, emphasizing a healer type necro that has been encouraged through Blood Magic. Would you be against that idea?