RAIDS LACK CLASS DIVERSITY- Possible Solutions.

[Talindra.4958]

just give this a little bit more time when people can master mechanic better, we will see more diversity in build and play especially in static group..

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:This statement is so false. Idk if you saw the raid tourney, but there was a lot of diversity in it. They even had a 5 necro dhumm cm run. Players are just stubborn and thick headed and feel what is posted on a website is law. Those sites are usually for speed clears.

If you call stacking scourges, weavers or mirages diversity then yeah. They had to ban 2-3 specialization after each boss to counter profession stacking. Without that you wouldn't have seen a lot of the specializations. Stacking scourges for dhuum cm is by far the easiest way.Almost highest possible dps thanks to epi bounce and so forgiving on everything with 30k+ hp if you add barrier. It also has no dps rotation. Just hit epi bounce and you are fine if you manage to press every other skill off cooldown.Who needs firebrand stability when you can spam every boon in the game with chaos chrono. That also boosts weavers to absurd dps levels.

So they were DIVERSE by specialization banning and still got a kill, eh. So basically you can be diverse and get the kill your saying. Sounds like build diversity to me and my point is that you can be diverse. Again the profession stacking/meta is meant for speed clears. Is everyone really trying to be the fastest. Doubt it.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:This statement is so false. Idk if you saw the raid tourney, but there was a lot of diversity in it. They even had a 5 necro dhumm cm run. Players are just stubborn and thick headed and feel what is posted on a website is law. Those sites are usually for speed clears.

If you call stacking scourges, weavers or mirages diversity then yeah. They had to ban 2-3 specialization after each boss to counter profession stacking. Without that you wouldn't have seen a lot of the specializations. Stacking scourges for dhuum cm is by far the easiest way.Almost highest possible dps thanks to epi bounce and so forgiving on everything with 30k+ hp if you add barrier. It also has no dps rotation. Just hit epi bounce and you are fine if you manage to press every other skill off cooldown.Who needs firebrand stability when you can spam every boon in the game with chaos chrono. That also boosts weavers to absurd dps levels.

So they were DIVERSE by specialization banning and still got a kill, eh. So basically you can be diverse and get the kill your saying. Sounds like build diversity to me and my point is that you can be diverse. Again the profession stacking/meta is meant for speed clears. Is everyone really trying to be the fastest. Doubt it.

But people do want meta 'cause they want fast kills 'cause mechanics are sooooo hard.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Enigmoid.1264" said:Not to say that weaver isn't OP but that the logs likely quite overstated significantly. Weaver is pretty much trash in the hands of ~75% of the playerbase who are much better served on some different class. Nerfing weaver and ele in general when ele is trash in PvP and very weak in WvW is really just going to kill the class. Ele needs buffs in general and

more reliable damage at the cost of less damage

. The skill floor for an effective ele needs to be lowered as does the skill ceiling and top dps. In that sense weaver damage and damage only needs a shave.

While I agree with your point about Raidar biases, I'm going to disagree here. Giving ele more reliable, but lower damage, is homogenizing it with the other classes, which offer just that (like Holo). This isn't good for the game. The current situation offers a

choice

, a meaningful choice, between a reliable low-risk/lower-reward options and a high-risk/higher-reward alternative. I'm fully aware players tend to overestimate their own skill and are more likely to end up playing badly the supposedly optimal choice instead of playing decently a supposedly sub-optimal one for better results, but that's not a reason to eliminate said choice. Some players

do

take advantage of it. More so now, thanks to the availability of dps meter. I say it's better to encourage players to try different things and get a feel for what works for them, rather than making everything basically the same.Choice is fine, the current advantage of a well-played weaver over anything else is not.

There

has

to be a reason to pick a weaver over something

far

more reliable. I'll say that again - the dps role is well balanced right now, with a lot of diversity and valid choices. The support ones aren't, although they're better than they used to be.

Support roles are a wholly different problem.

With regard to weaver/ele, we currently have (out of 13 bosses, the "boss" events excluded)

• 5 bosses where it is more than 15% stronger than the alternative classes (maximum a whopping 42%)
• 2 bosses between 5 and 15%
• 4 bosses comparable to alternatives
• and 2 bosses where it is 5% or more weaker.That's not well balanced, that warrants a substantial nerf. I'd aim for 10% flat.

[Feanor.2358]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Enigmoid.1264" said:Not to say that weaver isn't OP but that the logs likely quite overstated significantly. Weaver is pretty much trash in the hands of ~75% of the playerbase who are much better served on some different class. Nerfing weaver and ele in general when ele is trash in PvP and very weak in WvW is really just going to kill the class. Ele needs buffs in general and

more reliable damage at the cost of less damage

. The skill floor for an effective ele needs to be lowered as does the skill ceiling and top dps. In that sense weaver damage and damage only needs a shave.

While I agree with your point about Raidar biases, I'm going to disagree here. Giving ele more reliable, but lower damage, is homogenizing it with the other classes, which offer just that (like Holo). This isn't good for the game. The current situation offers a

choice

, a meaningful choice, between a reliable low-risk/lower-reward options and a high-risk/higher-reward alternative. I'm fully aware players tend to overestimate their own skill and are more likely to end up playing badly the supposedly optimal choice instead of playing decently a supposedly sub-optimal one for better results, but that's not a reason to eliminate said choice. Some players

do

take advantage of it. More so now, thanks to the availability of dps meter. I say it's better to encourage players to try different things and get a feel for what works for them, rather than making everything basically the same.Choice is fine, the current advantage of a well-played weaver over anything else is not.

There

has

to be a reason to pick a weaver over something

far

more reliable. I'll say that again - the dps role is well balanced right now, with a lot of diversity and valid choices. The support ones aren't, although they're better than they used to be.

Support roles are a wholly different problem.

With regard to weaver/ele, we currently have (out of 13 bosses, the "boss" events excluded)

• 5 bosses where it is more than 15% stronger than the alternative classes (maximum a whopping 42%)
• 2 bosses between 5 and 15%
• 4 bosses comparable to alternatives
• and 2 bosses where it is 5% or more weaker.That's not well balanced, that warrants a substantial nerf. I'd aim for 10% flat.

Your numbers are way off. Maybe true for 99th percentile. That's irrelevant - this only affects a handful of players. For the average group, a Weaver is only optimal on KC. Everywhere else it can be easily replaced and they won't really see a difference. And even for the top percentile, we saw Scourges epi-bouncing instead of weavers on VG, Sabetha, Desmina, Deimos. Maybe others, too. So your numbers are not even true for that small fraction of players.

[CptAurellian.9537]

I can only repeat what I've said at several occasions: You don't balance for 50th percentile or lower, you balance for players who know what to do. Even if you take 90th percentile instead of 99th, the overall picture doesn't change substantially. At some bosses, the advantage of weavers is reduced a bit, at a few it actually grows. With regard to epi bounce, the top numbers reflect that in relatively few cases.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Enigmoid.1264" said:Not to say that weaver isn't OP but that the logs likely quite overstated significantly. Weaver is pretty much trash in the hands of ~75% of the playerbase who are much better served on some different class. Nerfing weaver and ele in general when ele is trash in PvP and very weak in WvW is really just going to kill the class. Ele needs buffs in general and

more reliable damage at the cost of less damage

. The skill floor for an effective ele needs to be lowered as does the skill ceiling and top dps. In that sense weaver damage and damage only needs a shave.

While I agree with your point about Raidar biases, I'm going to disagree here. Giving ele more reliable, but lower damage, is homogenizing it with the other classes, which offer just that (like Holo). This isn't good for the game. The current situation offers a

choice

, a meaningful choice, between a reliable low-risk/lower-reward options and a high-risk/higher-reward alternative. I'm fully aware players tend to overestimate their own skill and are more likely to end up playing badly the supposedly optimal choice instead of playing decently a supposedly sub-optimal one for better results, but that's not a reason to eliminate said choice. Some players

do

take advantage of it. More so now, thanks to the availability of dps meter. I say it's better to encourage players to try different things and get a feel for what works for them, rather than making everything basically the same.Choice is fine, the current advantage of a well-played weaver over anything else is not.

There

has

to be a reason to pick a weaver over something

far

more reliable. I'll say that again - the dps role is well balanced right now, with a lot of diversity and valid choices. The support ones aren't, although they're better than they used to be.

Support roles are a wholly different problem.

With regard to weaver/ele, we currently have (out of 13 bosses, the "boss" events excluded)

• 5 bosses where it is more than 15% stronger than the alternative classes (maximum a whopping 42%)
• 2 bosses between 5 and 15%
• 4 bosses comparable to alternatives
• and 2 bosses where it is 5% or more weaker.That's not well balanced, that warrants a substantial nerf. I'd aim for 10% flat.

Your numbers are way off. Maybe true for 99th percentile. That's irrelevant - this only affects a handful of players. For the average group, a Weaver is only optimal on KC. Everywhere else it can be easily replaced and they won't really see a difference. And even for the top percentile, we saw Scourges epi-bouncing instead of weavers on VG, Sabetha, Desmina, Deimos. Maybe others, too. So your numbers are not even true for that small fraction of players.

What? Gorseval, Deimos, Sloth and Samarog are Weaver paradise aswell. Even MO is now. Bountiful Power + chaos chrono just added 10%+ flat in the last balance patch while everything else got nerfed. That 10% just needs to be removed again.Weaver is also hilariously overpowered in fractal cms to the point of dealing 100% more dps than a dh on some bosses.

Edit: Yeah forgot poor sloth.

[CptAurellian.9537]

You forgot Sloth :)

[Raizel.8175]

Weaver is somewhat too strong, though the community still isn't as mentally deranged as to only want Weavers as dps-classes. That's very rare in LFG. Problem is the Chrono/Druid-supremacy. You simply can't do without them. Even if you yourself search for people, there will always be some people that instantly leave because there's no Chrono or Druid in the party so people can't faceroll content. These classes being utterly broken and overpowered and enabling more or less faceroll-gameplay is the true offender here.

...and when talking about fractals: What pi**ses me off is the discrimination of condi-classes.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Raizel.8175 said:Weaver is somewhat too strong, though the community still isn't as mentally deranged as to only want Weavers as dps-classes. That's very rare in LFG. Problem is the Chrono/Druid-supremacy. You simply can't do without them. Even if you yourself search for people, there will always be some people that instantly leave because there's no Chrono or Druid in the party so people can't faceroll content. These classes being utterly broken and overpowered and enabling more or less faceroll-gameplay is the true offender here.

...and when talking about fractals: What pi**ses me off is the discrimination of condi-classes.

You can replace a chrono with a firebrand + rev combo and only one druid is needed in raids for spirits. Chrono is just more versatile in pug raids since you only need to search for 1 player.Power is stronger in fractals by design. That will stay this way until they release more raid-like fractals with long bossfights without phases or they add burst to condi builds. There already were burst condi builds in the past and that wasn't really healthy for the game.Not sure if adding alacrity to firebrand or quickness to rev would be the right way to buff them. That would make them optimal healers and leave tempest in the dust.

[Raizel.8175]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Raizel.8175 said:Weaver is somewhat too strong, though the community still isn't as mentally deranged as to only want Weavers as dps-classes. That's very rare in LFG. Problem is the Chrono/Druid-supremacy. You simply can't do without them. Even if you yourself search for people, there will always be some people that instantly leave because there's no Chrono or Druid in the party so people can't faceroll content. These classes being utterly broken and overpowered and enabling more or less faceroll-gameplay is the true offender here.

...and when talking about fractals: What pi**ses me off is the discrimination of condi-classes.

You can replace a chrono with a firebrand + rev combo and only one druid is needed in raids for spirits. Chrono is just more versatile in pug raids since you only need to search for 1 player.Power is stronger in fractals by design. That will stay this way until they release more raid-like fractals with long bossfights without phases or they add burst to condi builds. There already were burst condi builds in the past and that wasn't really healthy for the game.Not sure if adding alacrity to firebrand or quickness to rev would be the right way to buff them. That would make them optimal healers and leave tempest in the dust.

Hardly anyone would replace the Chrono/Druid combination. Sure, you can also use Firebrand/Renegade as tank/heal, but they're lacking in two other sections: The support-capabilities of both Chrono and Druid are easier, more reliable and more comfortable to use; they are also somewhat more effective. The other section are utilities. You don't only want a second Chrono/Druid-couple for buffs (though a second druid makes perma-might in LFG-squads more reliable), but also for their utilities. Chrono/Druid overpower Firebrand/Renegade in two of three aspects thus people just dont bother with Firebrand/Renegade. Just take a look into the LFG...

[Nephalem.8921]

@Raizel.8175 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Raizel.8175 said:Weaver is somewhat too strong, though the community still isn't as mentally deranged as to only want Weavers as dps-classes. That's very rare in LFG. Problem is the Chrono/Druid-supremacy. You simply can't do without them. Even if you yourself search for people, there will always be some people that instantly leave because there's no Chrono or Druid in the party so people can't faceroll content. These classes being utterly broken and overpowered and enabling more or less faceroll-gameplay is the true offender here.

...and when talking about fractals: What pi**ses me off is the discrimination of condi-classes.

You can replace a chrono with a firebrand + rev combo and only one druid is needed in raids for spirits. Chrono is just more versatile in pug raids since you only need to search for 1 player.Power is stronger in fractals by design. That will stay this way until they release more raid-like fractals with long bossfights without phases or they add burst to condi builds. There already were burst condi builds in the past and that wasn't really healthy for the game.Not sure if adding alacrity to firebrand or quickness to rev would be the right way to buff them. That would make them optimal healers and leave tempest in the dust.

Hardly anyone would replace the Chrono/Druid combination. Sure, you can also use Firebrand/Renegade as tank/heal, but they're lacking in two other sections: The support-capabilities of both Chrono and Druid are easier, more reliable and more comfortable to use; they are also somewhat more effective. The other section are utilities. You don't only want a second Chrono/Druid-couple for buffs (though a second druid makes perma-might in LFG-squads more reliable), but also for their utilities. Chrono/Druid overpower Firebrand/Renegade in two of three aspects thus people just dont bother with Firebrand/Renegade. Just take a look into the LFG...

Firebrand + Rev has superior dps compared to that chrono druid combo. Nobody plays that in pug raids not because its bad but because it is way harder to find and only really works if firebrand + rev join at the same time.They fill support + healer role at the same time and require each other aswell. It doesn't matter for chrono boons which healer joins. That doesn't mean that firebrand and rev shouldn't get some buffs in pve but just adding quickness or alacrity to them would make them too strong since they could fill tank, healer and boon bot at the same time then.Chaos chrono could be nerfed. Stripping alacrity or quickness could make it bad really fast.

And towards that double druid. If one harrier druid can't keep perma might he is just bad. Frost spirit with nature magic pulses 6 perma. CA 4 is 15 might every 10sec. So you are at 21 already with just pressing 1 button. But druid isn't the only might source. Chrono shares, weaver and holo blasts exist. Rev can btw also keep perma might for the group. Just not the squad.

[alaskasnowgirl.6047]

We need other decent healers - guard could be in another elite spec. We also need other classes that give boons (they nerfed Herald, but they could bring it back so that people wouldn't always run Mesmers). IMO, if they just un-nerfed a lot of HOT specs, then we would see more diversity in what classes were meta in raids.

Also, another reason they should un-nerf HOT classes is some people feel better playing on them but the damage just doesn't compare to new specs (thinking Tempest vs Weaver and Reaper vs Necro here...)

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Nephalem.8921 said:That doesn't mean that firebrand and rev shouldn't get some buffs in pve but just adding quickness or alacrity to them would make them too strong since they could fill tank, healer and boon bot at the same time then.I agree and several things come to my mind how this could be accomplished. Rev healing should probably be made a lot less clunky regardless of anything else. Then, we could get a proper hybrid condi/support(/healer) stat set, which would benefit rev primarily for alacrity and also open some nice possibilities for FB. That way, we'd have a pretty clear choice between FB/rev and chrono/druid. Markedly superior dps for the former, markedly superior CC and somewhat better utility for the latter. Add in some small changes to all four classes and we'd take a big stride towards better support balance.

Guard certainly does not need another elite spec for this kind of support that would be totally redundant with FB.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:That's not well balanced, that warrants a substantial nerf. I'd aim for 10% flat.

Gonna reply to this part because it's important.Have you ever played Weaver in the newer story instances?If you did play as a Weaver the newer storylines, were they easier or harder than playing with other builds?

I played all of Path of Fire plus the first episode of LS4 with the following: Dragonhunter, Renegade, Soulbeast, Holosmith and Weaver.All the fights were a literal faceroll with the 3 first ones but with the Weaver and Holosmith (Holo because I don't have much experience with Engineer in general) I admit I struggled a bit with some encounters like the War Beast. Now what would nerfing the dps of the Weaver by a flat 10% do?

As I said earlier in the thread, balancing by tweaking skill numbers is one way, but balancing by adding new encounters is a different, and in many ways more effective solution, without upsetting the rest of the game.

Using your own data:

5 bosses where it is more than 15% stronger than the alternative classes (maximum a whopping 42%)2 bosses between 5 and 15%4 bosses comparable to alternativesand 2 bosses where it is 5% or more weaker.

The Weaver is much better than other choices in 5 out of 13 bosses. One way to "solve" this is by reducing the dps of Weavers. A better alternative would be for the next 8 bosses (4 bosses per wing, 2 next wings) to never add another boss that plays like those 5 the Weaver is excellent at, instead focus on boss types that follow different patterns, for example like the 2 bosses you mentioned that Weaver is 5% weaker than the alternatives. Add more of those. This would lead to more diversity, without touching the actual skills of a build, as different builds will shine on different bosses, which also leads to diversity.

[Feanor.2358]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Enigmoid.1264" said:Not to say that weaver isn't OP but that the logs likely quite overstated significantly. Weaver is pretty much trash in the hands of ~75% of the playerbase who are much better served on some different class. Nerfing weaver and ele in general when ele is trash in PvP and very weak in WvW is really just going to kill the class. Ele needs buffs in general and

more reliable damage at the cost of less damage

. The skill floor for an effective ele needs to be lowered as does the skill ceiling and top dps. In that sense weaver damage and damage only needs a shave.

While I agree with your point about Raidar biases, I'm going to disagree here. Giving ele more reliable, but lower damage, is homogenizing it with the other classes, which offer just that (like Holo). This isn't good for the game. The current situation offers a

choice

, a meaningful choice, between a reliable low-risk/lower-reward options and a high-risk/higher-reward alternative. I'm fully aware players tend to overestimate their own skill and are more likely to end up playing badly the supposedly optimal choice instead of playing decently a supposedly sub-optimal one for better results, but that's not a reason to eliminate said choice. Some players

do

take advantage of it. More so now, thanks to the availability of dps meter. I say it's better to encourage players to try different things and get a feel for what works for them, rather than making everything basically the same.Choice is fine, the current advantage of a well-played weaver over anything else is not.

There

has

to be a reason to pick a weaver over something

far

more reliable. I'll say that again - the dps role is well balanced right now, with a lot of diversity and valid choices. The support ones aren't, although they're better than they used to be.

Support roles are a wholly different problem.

With regard to weaver/ele, we currently have (out of 13 bosses, the "boss" events excluded)

• 5 bosses where it is more than 15% stronger than the alternative classes (maximum a whopping 42%)
• 2 bosses between 5 and 15%
• 4 bosses comparable to alternatives
• and 2 bosses where it is 5% or more weaker.That's not well balanced, that warrants a substantial nerf. I'd aim for 10% flat.

Your numbers are way off. Maybe true for 99th percentile. That's irrelevant - this only affects a handful of players. For the average group, a Weaver is only optimal on KC. Everywhere else it can be easily replaced and they won't really see a difference. And even for the top percentile, we saw Scourges epi-bouncing instead of weavers on VG, Sabetha, Desmina, Deimos. Maybe others, too. So your numbers are not even true for that small fraction of players.

What? Gorseval, Deimos, Sloth and Samarog are Weaver paradise aswell. Even MO is now. Bountiful Power + chaos chrono just added 10%+ flat in the last balance patch while everything else got nerfed. That 10% just needs to be removed again.Weaver is also hilariously overpowered in fractal cms to the point of dealing 100% more dps than a dh on some bosses.

Edit: Yeah forgot poor sloth.

There are a lot of bosses where you can run Weaver successfully. But an average group can run other classes with very similar success. Experienced weavers will pull ahead. But experienced weavers do not come a dime a dozen. Just see raidar. The difference between 90th and 50th percentile in many cases is 50% or more.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@maddoctor.2738 said:Gonna reply to this part because it's important.Have you ever played Weaver in the newer story instances?If you did play as a Weaver the newer storylines, were they easier or harder than playing with other builds?I haven't. My ele has been a storage character for the best part of the last years. However, that's irrelevant. The over-performance of ele/weaver in instanced PvE cannot be excused by it's possible under-performance in other areas of the game, just like scourge over-performance in PvP is no justification for PvE nerfs, etc.

With regard to your idea about boss design, I don't see this working. So we make more small hitbox, relatively mobile bosses with some external pressure like Matthias in order to bring ele in line. And, what happens? Right, we'll just screw other builds like DH as well, which are already under-performing. Ele is the problem, not boss design.

@Feanor.2358 said:There are a lot of bosses where you can run Weaver successfully. But an average group can run other classes with very similar success. Experienced weavers will pull ahead. But experienced weavers do not come a dime a dozen. Just see raidar. The difference between 90th and 50th percentile in many cases is 50% or more.That's the case for many classes. A good chunk of them have a difference of ~50% between 99th and 50th percentile. However, it's beyond any justification when a 99th percentile DH does less damage at something like MO than a 60th percentile weaver.

[Feanor.2358]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:There are a lot of bosses where you can run Weaver successfully. But an average group can run other classes with very similar success.

Experienced

weavers will pull ahead. But experienced weavers do not come a dime a dozen. Just see raidar. The difference between 90th and 50th percentile in many cases is 50% or more.That's the case for many classes. A good chunk of them have a difference of ~50% between 99th and 50th percentile. However, it's beyond any justification when a 99th percentile DH does less damage at something like MO than a 60th percentile weaver.

Balance is a complex matter. Weaver is the single most fragile damage spec I've seen in this game. And by "fragile" I don't only mean its non-existent survivability, I also mean how susceptible it is to interrupts and how much damage loss they cause. So no, it is not beyond justification. It's actually reasonable. Even more so when you consider you both these levels of damage output are far above what you need to comfortably and safely beat the encounter, making them both perfectly "good enough", which is a form a balance on itself. Again, what you say only applies to a handful of people. It is true for them, but I don't agree the balance for the whole playerbase should be driven by what's good for the 99th percentile.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:I haven't. My ele has been a storage character for the best part of the last years. However, that's irrelevant. The over-performance of ele/weaver in instanced PvE cannot be excused by it's possible under-performance in other areas of the game, just like scourge over-performance in PvP is no justification for PvE nerfs, etc.

PvP and PvE have many split skills and can be balanced differently. Balancing Weaver for those instanced pve fights that Weaver is overperforming without touching the ability of Weaver in other types of PvE is impossible, which is exactly why tweaking the Ele itself is a last resort.

With regard to your idea about boss design, I don't see this working. So we make more small hitbox, relatively mobile bosses with some external pressure like Matthias in order to bring ele in line. And, what happens? Right, we'll just screw other builds like DH as well, which are already under-performing. Ele is the problem, not boss design.

When a build is under-performing in all (or almost all boss fights) then it needs tweaks and updates to buff them. If a build is over-performing on all, or most, fights then it does need to be nerfed. But Weaver is not the best on all fights, there are a lot of situations that Weaver is not the best, especially if you don't only look at the highest percentages. Plus there is the rest of the game (PvE side) to consider when balancing Weaver. Making it so it's even harder (it already is much harder than a lot of the other builds) to play the story instances solo, in order to "fix" Weaver DPS in Raids, isn't a very good suggestion.

The topic of the thread is raid diversity, my suggestion will increase diversity of Raids by making a larger variety of builds "meta" on more encounters. Sure some builds, like DH, won't see an update this way. Builds like that, that play in a similar way to others and excel at the exact same thing need those personal buffs/nerfs to be balanced.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There are a lot of bosses where you can run Weaver successfully. But an average group can run other classes with very similar success.

Experienced

weavers will pull ahead. But experienced weavers do not come a dime a dozen. Just see raidar. The difference between 90th and 50th percentile in many cases is 50% or more.That's the case for many classes. A good chunk of them have a difference of ~50% between 99th and 50th percentile. However, it's beyond any justification when a 99th percentile DH does less damage at something like MO than a 60th percentile weaver.

Balance is a complex matter. Weaver is

the

single most fragile damage spec I've seen in this game. And by "fragile" I don't only mean its non-existent survivability, I also mean how susceptible it is to interrupts and how much damage loss they cause. So no, it is not beyond justification. It's actually reasonable. Even more so when you consider you both these levels of damage output are

far

above what you need to comfortably and safely beat the encounter, making them both perfectly "good enough", which is a form a balance on itself. Again, what you say only applies to a handful of people. It is true for them, but I don't agree the balance for the whole playerbase should be driven by what's good for the 99th percentile.

I don't buy the argument of "fragility" when 50th percentile weaver is still at an excellent spot. And no, "good enough" isn't balance in itself, especially not with a community like the GW2 one.

[Feanor.2358]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There are a lot of bosses where you can run Weaver successfully. But an average group can run other classes with very similar success.

Experienced

weavers will pull ahead. But experienced weavers do not come a dime a dozen. Just see raidar. The difference between 90th and 50th percentile in many cases is 50% or more.That's the case for many classes. A good chunk of them have a difference of ~50% between 99th and 50th percentile. However, it's beyond any justification when a 99th percentile DH does less damage at something like MO than a 60th percentile weaver.

Balance is a complex matter. Weaver is

the

single most fragile damage spec I've seen in this game. And by "fragile" I don't only mean its non-existent survivability, I also mean how susceptible it is to interrupts and how much damage loss they cause. So no, it is not beyond justification. It's actually reasonable. Even more so when you consider you both these levels of damage output are

far

above what you need to comfortably and safely beat the encounter, making them both perfectly "good enough", which is a form a balance on itself. Again, what you say only applies to a handful of people. It is true for them, but I don't agree the balance for the whole playerbase should be driven by what's good for the 99th percentile.

I don't buy the argument of "fragility" when 50th percentile weaver is still at an excellent spot. And no, "good enough" isn't balance in itself, especially not with a community like the GW2 one.

And why is that? When we pug some dps to fill our raid group, we get different classes. Some weavers, yes - many of them severely underperforming - but also dragonhunters, mirages, holosmiths and scourges. So the community does use them. Which is the whole point of the balancing.

[Enigmoid.1264]

Nerf the supports (Chrono and Druid) and you will see weaver brought down quite a bit. Reduce their crowd control abilities, reduce the amount of boons they poop out and you will have your weaver nerf.

[NikeEU.7690]

@Enigmoid.1264 said:Nerf the supports (Chrono and Druid) and you will see weaver brought down quite a bit. Reduce their crowd control abilities, reduce the amount of boons they poop out and you will have your weaver nerf.

No, you won't.

[Enigmoid.1264]

@NikeEU.7690 said:

@Enigmoid.1264 said:Nerf the supports (Chrono and Druid) and you will see weaver brought down quite a bit. Reduce their crowd control abilities, reduce the amount of boons they poop out and you will have your weaver nerf.

No, you won't.

I should have clarified.

Weaver has minimal cc which is generally not available immediately (double attune to air for gust, lightning hammer/frostbow). Nerfing druid (this is not the best suggestion but some things on druid definitely need to go and having supports do all cc trivializes build choices and gameplay) by say removing pet breakbar damage (pets still cc on non defiant enemies but they deal 0 cc damage on raid bosses) or nerfing moa down to 900 breakbar damage will most definitely hurt weaver on bosses such as samarog. Make it so the weaver's lack of cc matters.

Re-tuning druid spirits so they are not effortless boons on 10 people and nerfing chaos chrono/chrono in general will drop the number of boons (and stability) further reducing weaver dps.

Then perhaps look at removing tempest defense.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Enigmoid.1264" said:Not to say that weaver isn't OP but that the logs likely quite overstated significantly. Weaver is pretty much trash in the hands of ~75% of the playerbase who are much better served on some different class. Nerfing weaver and ele in general when ele is trash in PvP and very weak in WvW is really just going to kill the class. Ele needs buffs in general and

more reliable damage at the cost of less damage

. The skill floor for an effective ele needs to be lowered as does the skill ceiling and top dps. In that sense weaver damage and damage only needs a shave.

While I agree with your point about Raidar biases, I'm going to disagree here. Giving ele more reliable, but lower damage, is homogenizing it with the other classes, which offer just that (like Holo). This isn't good for the game. The current situation offers a

choice

, a meaningful choice, between a reliable low-risk/lower-reward options and a high-risk/higher-reward alternative. I'm fully aware players tend to overestimate their own skill and are more likely to end up playing badly the supposedly optimal choice instead of playing decently a supposedly sub-optimal one for better results, but that's not a reason to eliminate said choice. Some players

do

take advantage of it. More so now, thanks to the availability of dps meter. I say it's better to encourage players to try different things and get a feel for what works for them, rather than making everything basically the same.Choice is fine, the current advantage of a well-played weaver over anything else is not.

There

has

to be a reason to pick a weaver over something

far

more reliable. I'll say that again - the dps role is well balanced right now, with a lot of diversity and valid choices. The support ones aren't, although they're better than they used to be.

Support roles are a wholly different problem.

With regard to weaver/ele, we currently have (out of 13 bosses, the "boss" events excluded)

• 5 bosses where it is more than 15% stronger than the alternative classes (maximum a whopping 42%)
• 2 bosses between 5 and 15%
• 4 bosses comparable to alternatives
• and 2 bosses where it is 5% or more weaker.That's not well balanced, that warrants a substantial nerf. I'd aim for 10% flat.

Your numbers are way off. Maybe true for 99th percentile. That's irrelevant - this only affects a handful of players. For the average group, a Weaver is only optimal on KC. Everywhere else it can be easily replaced and they won't really see a difference. And even for the top percentile, we saw Scourges epi-bouncing instead of weavers on VG, Sabetha, Desmina, Deimos. Maybe others, too. So your numbers are not even true for that small fraction of players.

Dude you are so spot on with this comment. Epidemic is probably the best skill in the game.