Why is Condi Engi dps SO BAD when it is probably the hardest thing to play in the game?

[coro.3176]

@NikeEU.7690 said:As I already said, condi engie with the optimal rotation is beyond the capabilities of all but about 2 dozen players. Presumably a build that can only be played by so few players is NOT the best thing they could buff.

On the contrary. That's even more reason to buff it, since all but a few dozen players even trying to make it work will be putting out much worse dps.

Those few keyboard-gods that can do it should be hitting 40k or more. Mere mortals should be able to hit normal benchmark numbers with a close (but maybe not 100% perfect) rotation.

[Walhalla.5473]

@coro.3176 said:

@"NikeEU.7690" said:As I already said, condi engie with the optimal rotation is beyond the capabilities of all but about 2 dozen players. Presumably a build that can only be played by so few players is NOT the best thing they could buff.

On the contrary. That's even more reason to buff it, since all but a few dozen players even trying to make it work will be putting out much worse dps.

Those few keyboard-gods that can do it

should

be hitting 40k or more. Mere mortals should be able to hit normal benchmark numbers with a close (but maybe not 100% perfect) rotation.

The main difficulty in a fight should come from the fight itself, not from your own rotation. And no, 40k single target dps should not happen. We are already quite high for the raid bosses with the "normal" dps range of 32k to 36k.Condi engie needs a rotation that doesn't make you feel like playing the 3rd movement of the moonlight sonata but it should not be faceroll easy like triple SB, somewhere in the middle which is doable for more then just a few but difficult enough that you can't watch netflix while doing this.

[Iozeph.5617]

@Obtena.7952 said:Unfortunately, the OP made the same complaint in the Engi forum ... and got the same answers. Condi Engi performance just isn't a problem worth Anet's time. Anet makes a variety of builds in diffculty and performance for good reason; to appeal to a wide cross section of players.

What cross section is this? We're the least played profession and the least desirable profession. All Anet's done for us is made an increasingly limited variety of builds with ever increasing difficulty(barring Holosmith which was nerfed) and for no discernible reason other than accident. And if it isn't by accident then it must be a willingness to keep this profession down or simple, gross neglect.

As for offerings, your contributions in those threads weren't much better. The same stale comeback time after time to the effect that Anet doesn't balance around specific builds. That much is obvious and worse it's neither here nor there. Our problems come from next to none of the Engineer's builds being desirable, regardless of game mode, over any of the professions which require a fraction of the effort needed to achieve equal or greater success. As we are we're a millstone, we hold back groups and rely on either the ignorance of others or on the generosity of friends willing to tolerate the profession's idiosyncrasies for the sake of friendship/charity to get spots we get. That, just on the face of things, isn't balanced. We should be wanted for something.

Your other argument amounted to, 'Well, they gave you Holosmith and if that sort of works then everyone should just play that, shut up, and quit asking for the profession as a whole to be better balanced.' Meanwhile, just about everything that makes an engineer an engineer has either been deprecated or allowed to lie fallow in the face of power creep across all the other professions. We're no longer a desirable jacks of all trades, wanted for diversity because other professions now wear many hats and do more than well with multitasking those roles.

Of late we've had med kit looked at. We got a slight improvement to rocket boots. Yay? A good first step perhaps, but preceding that other mechanics such as elixirs have been gutted and condi cleansing has been shifted to other options which require a minimum of two trait lines to be as effective as before in that single role. Our roles in the capacity of damage- whether straight power or condition or hybrid, are not desirable. It's Holosmith or bust.

Not everyone wants to play a Holosmith. We want good alternatives. Unfortunately, as has been stated here, we either don't have the damage with power in core and what we do have is stymied by projectile hate. Conditions are less easily applicable and what good we have there is so fiddly to employ that it isn't reliable or sustainable outside of specific, static fights. Worse, there more interrupts, throws, and knockbacks than ever and even so the game hasn't been about specific, static fights for well over four years now.

So no, not any specific build has been catered to or balanced around, but rather a wide field's worth of previously viable builds has been ruined or crippled with nothing to make up for the losses. This at a time when the changes in HoT and further along, PoF have increasingly restricted the possibilities for viable engineer builds. When you compare this to other professions which do enjoy a healthier range of options build-wise, but which don't necessarily require the use of an elite spec line to be successful or competitive then yes, there's a discrepancy which should be corrected.

Nobody wants to be left out or, at best, be the last one chosen for a team for lack of someone/something better turning up. That's where engineer is right now and that should change. We shouldn't have to be the 'on sufferance' profession. No profession should.

[Obtena.7952]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Unfortunately, the OP made the same complaint in the Engi forum ... and got the same answers. Condi Engi performance just isn't a problem worth Anet's time. Anet makes a variety of builds in diffculty and performance for good reason; to appeal to a wide cross section of players.

What cross section is this? We're the least played profession and the least desirable profession.

What do you mean by this question? Anet makes a wide range of performance and playstyle to appeal to a wide cross section of players. Are you suggesting that somehow engi is expectional in this regard? That wouldn't make any sense.

@Iozeph.5617 said:We're the least played profession and the least desirable profession.

And? I'm not even sure if that's true (if you got data, share it) but if it is true, so what? How does it even make sense to complain that of 9 classes, this one is the least played and desired .. .you do realize that just logically, SOME class is the least desired and the least played right? Put away the emotional rhetoric. No single build needs to be buffed, especially because of people's emotional attachment to it.

[Iozeph.5617]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Unfortunately, the OP made the same complaint in the Engi forum ... and got the same answers. Condi Engi performance just isn't a problem worth Anet's time. Anet makes a variety of builds in diffculty and performance for good reason; to appeal to a wide cross section of players.

What cross section is this? We're the least played profession and the least desirable profession.

What do you mean by this question? Anet makes a wide range of performance and playstyle to appeal to a wide cross section of players. Are you suggesting that somehow engi is expectional in this regard? That wouldn't make any sense.

@Iozeph.5617 said:We're the least played profession and the least desirable profession.

And? I'm not even sure if that's true (if you got data, share it) but if it is true, so what? How does it even make sense to complain that of 9 classes, this one is the least played and desired .. .you do realize that just logically, SOME class is the least desired and the least played right? Put away the emotional rhetoric. No single build needs to be buffed, especially because of people's emotional attachment to it.

I was wondering before, in the Engineer forum threads, if you were just being deliberately obtuse and circular in your arguments for argument's sake. Now, after this, I know you were. Thanks for making that abundantly clear. Moving on.

[Obtena.7952]

That's funny. I was wondering if your shtick was 'wall of text'. My response back to you was sincere. Too bad you didn't take the time to explain yourself. I don't think it's too unreasonable to validate your claims on least played or liked class though I did think it particularly relevant to point out the irrelevance of the emotional arguments you presented.

I will admit though, I stopped when you outright dismissed anything other than accident as the reason Anet could create a difficult to play class, which is just a simple attack made by a misunderstanding and frustrated player. You spiced it up with 'limited builds' complaint as well, though I will attribute that as lack of knowledge on your part; it's not like other classes have huge selection of builds to choose from either.

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know; we are 6 years into this game with atypical performance balance across all classes and between the builds within them; there is absolutely NO reason for Anet, in their ever-growing list of espec traits, weapons and skills, to attempt what the OP is asking them to do; buffing any particular family of builds is a pure waste of time at this point.

If you want equivalent performance AND access to a wider range of builds, you better be considering playing a wider range of additional classes.

[NikeEU.7690]

@coro.3176 said:

@NikeEU.7690 said:As I already said, condi engie with the optimal rotation is beyond the capabilities of all but about 2 dozen players. Presumably a build that can only be played by so few players is NOT the best thing they could buff.

On the contrary. That's even more reason to buff it, since all but a few dozen players even trying to make it work will be putting out much worse dps.

Those few keyboard-gods that can do it

should

be hitting 40k or more. Mere mortals should be able to hit normal benchmark numbers with a close (but maybe not 100% perfect) rotation.

I already explained why that is a bad idea. Its bad and toxic for the community and its bad from game design standpoint.

[Obtena.7952]

@NikeEU.7690 said:As I already said, condi engie with the optimal rotation is beyond the capabilities of all but about 2 dozen players. Presumably a build that can only be played by so few players is NOT the best thing they could buff.

@coro.3176 said:On the contrary. That's even more reason to buff it, since all but a few dozen players even trying to make it work will be putting out much worse dps.

Those few keyboard-gods that can do it should be hitting 40k or more. Mere mortals should be able to hit normal benchmark numbers with a close (but maybe not 100% perfect) rotation.

Right .. buff it so that 2 dozen +1 players can play it effectively ... good waste of time. Do you hear your same argument over an over getting shot down? If Condi engi is so badly underperforming and so hard to play, where is the sense for Anet to buff it to any level that affects almost no one. Where is the value to the players of this game in appealing to an emotional argument for buffing condi engi so it's 'viable' in your eyes?

[coro.3176]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@NikeEU.7690 said:As I already said, condi engie with the optimal rotation is beyond the capabilities of all but about 2 dozen players. Presumably a build that can only be played by so few players is NOT the best thing they could buff.

@"coro.3176" said:On the contrary. That's even more reason to buff it, since all but a few dozen players even trying to make it work will be putting out much worse dps.

Those few keyboard-gods that can do it

should

be hitting 40k or more. Mere mortals should be able to hit normal benchmark numbers with a close (but maybe not 100% perfect) rotation.

Right .. buff it so that 2 dozen +1 players can play it effectively ... good waste of time. Do you hear your same argument over an over getting shot down? If Condi engi is so badly underperforming and so hard to play, where is the sense for Anet to buff it to any level that affects almost no one. Where is the value to the players of this game in appealing to an emotional argument for buffing condi engi so it's 'viable' in your eyes?

Because unlike most things in Guild Wars 2, it is actually challenging. Difficulty should pay off in damage. It is insulting to the players that auto attack builds do more damage than playing a concerto on one's keyboard.

Can you imagine a high-level Street Fighter tournament where the optimal strategy was just to just button-mash?

Do you think people would play that game? No! People want to get good at things. They want master a game to the full complexity it allows. They want that skill and practice to be rewarded.

In this game, (condi) Engi and Ele represent the top level of complexity and skill required. I only ask that it pay off in damage.

If you want the game to be button mashing .. well, enjoy your

I guess.

I'll be playing

somewhere else.

[Obtena.7952]

@coro.3176 said:Because unlike most things in Guild Wars 2, it is actually challenging. Difficulty should pay off in damage.

That's not necessarily a given at all. You think Anet is going to target specific builds for equivalent performance AND ensure the difficulty matches the DPS output? I'm wondering if you even play this game. They don't do either of those things!

[Ardid.7203]

IMO, very profession should have at least 3 decent ("viable", acceptable by a non psycho but not condescending PUG ) builds: a direct dmg one, a condi one and a support one. Not because meta, but because build diversity gives more ways to do things, and that is essential to create fun.

[steki.1478]

@"Ardid.7203" said:IMO, very profession should have at least 3 decent ("viable", acceptable by a non psycho but not condescending PUG ) builds: a direct dmg one, a condi one and a support one. Not because meta, but because build diversity gives more ways to do things, and that is essential to create fun.

That's impossible since classes have different base hp/armor, different CC output, supportive skills/traits in dps builds etc. It's partially the fault of core game being "everyone can do everything".

[Iozeph.5617]

@Obtena.7952 said: That's funny. I was wondering if your shtick was 'wall of text'. My response back to you was sincere. Too bad you didn't take the time to explain yourself. I don't think it's too unreasonable to validate your claims on least played or liked class though I did think it particularly relevant to point out the irrelevance of the emotional arguments you presented.

I will admit though, I stopped when you outright dismissed anything other than accident as the reason Anet could create a difficult to play class, which is just a simple attack made by a misunderstanding and frustrated player. You spiced it up with 'limited builds' complaint as well, though I will attribute that as lack of knowledge on your part; it's not like other classes have huge selection of builds to choose from either.

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know; we are 6 years into this game with atypical performance balance across all classes and between the builds within them; there is absolutely NO reason for Anet, in their ever-growing list of espec traits, weapons and skills, to attempt what the OP is asking them to do; buffing any particular family of builds is a pure waste of time at this point.

Oh no! You've invoked the 'wall of text!' Guess what. Too bad. Here's more for you.

You're damned right I'm frustrated. And I'm not alone. Engineers are bottom of the barrel gaining or losing with Revenant for least played/least popular. If it's proof you want the links to the sites collecting data on professions have been linked in the forums many times over the last few months. You obviously hang around here enough to have known about them so look them up yourself.

The differences the engineer has to those other professions is that the other professions' builds work and work well in other modes besides open world exploration and leveling. They don't only work but have a tendency to dominate their competitors. And this is in the hands of players just stepping into them. Not even a matter of players of equivalent skill, which they still manage to dominate. The respective classes are imbalanced and this transcends minor differences in mechanics. I'd challenge you to go out in WvW and square off against them on a core Engineer but you're smug reply would be, 'Why should I do that when Anet doesn't balance around 1v1?'

And it doesn't matter because you as much admit there's a lack of balance. No, you're not telling anyone anything they don't know. But you are, in effect, arguing for the status quo to stay in place. Because?

Regardless of how far in we are there's a big reason for ANet to right the ship. It's called fun. Remember fun? The current balance isn't fun for anyone not playing these dominant professions. And after a while, for all but the absolutely diehard it's going to get stale either endlessly winning with no challenge or endlessly ending up in a stalemate against the same professions day in and out. More counters to these professions are necessary for the game's future health. And that's a waste of time? As opposed to what? More bloody mount skins nobody asked for? Stripping more fun out of festivals? Making another set of elite specs they also won't be able to properly balance?

As of now the choice for players is no choice at all. Actually I'll just quote your last line as it's priceless-

@Obtena.7952 said:If you want equivalent performance AND access to a wider range of builds, you better be considering playing a wider range of additional classes.

Tough cheese, in other words. If Anet aren't bothering and, as per your opinion they shouldn't bother to correct the imbalances in their game, then they should have a disclaimer saying:

'If you insist on playing anything but, x, y, and z professions in competitive game modes you're going to lose and that's on you because, gosh, it's six years in and we have tennis elbow, pulled finger tendons, writers block, acid reflux, and artistic PTSD from the one time we accidentally left our subReddit safe space and visited our own official forums- so we couldn't possibly be bothered to make these modes sporting for everyone. Not now! We might have said it's play your way a long time ago but jeez, quit throwing things we've said, that we couldn't erase from our site before someone captured it, in our faces and living in the past. Look to the future! Yay!'

And if not that, they should go all-in and institute a hard ban on those professions even entering those modes. Or even better- just delete those professions so that all the frustrated, misinformed players get the message and give those modes, and perhaps the rest of this game, a miss entirely.

But Anet won't do that, will they? No, because no sane company board would sign off on that. It would be PR suicide. And even if it wasn't why would they need to? Not when instead all they have to do is stay silent, do nothing, and hide behind you and the other apologists and devil's advocates who from one side of your mouths acknowledge there's imbalance but from the other insist there's nothing wrong. It's a win-win for them.

[Obtena.7952]

@Iozeph.5617 said:Tough cheese, in other words. If Anet aren't bothering and, as per your opinion they shouldn't bother to correct the imbalances in their game, then they should have a disclaimer saying:

That's right tough cheese, but they don't need a disclaimer just because their vision of balance doesn't match yours. It's your choice to patronize them. It's funny how many 'problems' come back to people being unwilling to make difficult choices.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Why is this in the instance subforum and not under Engineer subforum?

[Poseidon.3852]

In my opinion, not every build should be viable for every game mode. Not every profession should be a potential first choice for every game mode. Every profession should have one build that is meta for something and one that is totally acceptable for everything else.

However, harder to play classes should reward you with more. Somebody said that build and rotations are something that the community has come up with and not ANet, so that ANet has no obligation to essentially balance a profession around it. However, the problem is that these builds are usually the most possible optimized variation of a given specialization. If the most optimized variation of a hard to play class is not as rewarding as the most optimized one of an easy to play class, than how do they view "balance"? What are they trying to balance, ultimately?

First off, I want to praise ANet highly for making certain abilities be different in different game modes! This makes it a lot easier to balance things and it was one of their best ideas ever.

Secondly, I would like to point out that DPS is not the only thing that matters to a profession in terms of Raids. If that is the only thing that matters, than Raids need to change, not the classes.

This leads us now to say the following: If a harder to play class is overall more rewarding than an easy to play class, i.e. gives more survivability in unexpected situations, is more versatile, better to sustain your team, can do more roles at once and etc, than it is just where it is. However, if it is sub-par in everything, AND in every game mode, comparable to it's easier to play counterparts, than that calls for a buff. If condi-engineer is not viable in any mode or is sub-par to power holo in every game mode and every situation, then it needs a buff.

However, if it has its place, but is just not viable for everything, then it is just right where it needs to be. On the other hand, if a spec is viable for everything and is easy to play, then that spec needs a nerf.

I am highly against an "everything goes" philosophy in MMORPGs. But that's just me, I guess.