About cond thief

[RayssaMoreira.3728]

I want to know what you're going to do about cond thief. This build is so sick ... It hits you inside the point and then it goes out, it waits a few seconds and then it does the same thing, it continues in that infinite loop. I'm not even complaining about the mesmer, but this thief condition can be even worse.

[RayssaMoreira.3728]

Note: You can not counter this using a melee class, as you do not have infinite resistance against conditions.

[saerni.2584]

What class are you playing?

[Alatar.7364]

Immobilizing can help delete them quickly, however I understand with their stupid evade frame when on DD and Infiltrators Return it's almost undoable.

I don't even know if I wanna whine about them or not, it's been here before and got nerfed before, it's insanely cheesy and too rewarding, but somehow so braindead I can't bother thinking about it.

What I actually hate the most about it is the fact how quickly 90% of Thief community jumped to that Build the moment it became broken again, kind of disappointing. At this point it's almost joyful to get killed by any other Thief build, maybe except Condi D/D DD, Grrrr.

[RayssaMoreira.3728]

@saerni.2584 said:What class are you playing?

Warrior (core and sb), Mesmer (mirage power) and Ranger (sb and druid).

@Alatar.7364 said:Immobilizing can help delete them quickly, however I understand with their stupid evade frame when on DD and Infiltrators Return it's almost undoable.

I don't even know if I wanna whine about them or not, it's been here before and got nerfed before, it's insanely cheesy and too rewarding, but somehow so braindead I can't bother thinking about it.

What I actually hate the most about it is the fact how quickly 90% of Thief community jumped to that Build the moment it became broken again, kind of disappointing. At this point it's almost joyful to get killed by any other Thief build, maybe except Condi D/D DD, Grrrr.

That's the point, this build is so sick that good players are using it.

[Rysdude.3824]

@RayssaMoreira.3728 said:

@saerni.2584 said:What class are you playing?

Warrior (core and sb), Mesmer (mirage power) and Ranger (sb and druid).

@Alatar.7364 said:Immobilizing can help delete them quickly, however I understand with their stupid evade frame when on DD and Infiltrators Return it's almost undoable.

I don't even know if I wanna whine about them or not, it's been here before and got nerfed before, it's insanely cheesy and too rewarding, but somehow so braindead I can't bother thinking about it.

What I actually hate the most about it is the fact how quickly 90% of Thief community jumped to that Build the moment it became broken again, kind of disappointing. At this point it's almost joyful to get killed by any other Thief build, maybe except Condi D/D DD, Grrrr.

That's the point, this build is so sick that good players are using it.

I know this is a PvP thread but I’ve encountered this build while WvW roaming also. Seems like 99% thief players use this build with .5 being DE and the other .5 being Staff DD. Its incredibly hard to fight back against. IMO, along the level of Condi Mirage. I don’t even fight back anymore (not thay I could with the annoying as fuck imob.)

[AegisFLCL.7623]

@Alatar.7364 said:Immobilizing can help delete them quickly, however I understand with their stupid evade frame when on DD and Infiltrators Return it's almost undoable.

I don't even know if I wanna whine about them or not, it's been here before and got nerfed before, it's insanely cheesy and too rewarding, but somehow so braindead I can't bother thinking about it.

What I actually hate the most about it is the fact how quickly 90% of Thief community jumped to that Build the moment it became broken again, kind of disappointing. At this point it's almost joyful to get killed by any other Thief build, maybe except Condi D/D DD, Grrrr.

To address the bolded point:

It's incredibly hard to contest any fight in melee on a power based thief; the amount of AOE dmg and CC is too oppressive in the current meta, especially after nerfs to sword chain and non-existent access to stability.

I played this build the previous season on my thief, and while it is WAY more OP as a +1 build than any current power build, in a 1v1 situation or when you're aware of a condi thief in a team fight, the majority of damage is easily avoidable. The biggest issues with this build are confusion and players blowing cleanses at the wrong time; confusion should have it DoT component removed in PvP, and dev's should look at a reduction in scaling/dmg per stack of confusion, possibly add cleansing priorities (thats a lot of work however).

With some adjustments to confusion/steal/traits, I don't think there's too much too adjust with this build. The amount of AOE garbage in this game makes it incredibly hard to play a melee class without incredible sustain (i.e. Spellbreaker and Holosmith); rev is also suffering for similar reasons. A short summary is the current Meta has pushed players into this build as, to me at least, it is the most optimal build for a good performance across all situations.

[saerni.2584]

@RayssaMoreira.3728

Key is using your cc abilities at the right time. The S/D Daredevil is pretty locked in once you cc them and anything with block is going to mitigate a lot of that damage.

If you are having trouble with mirage then...I think you need to work on your timing. A well timed evade and a well timed cc mean you don’t even need to cleanse.

But I would recommend carrying a high impact cleanse to mitigate the burst, then use your evade and blocks to mitigate the rest before counter attacking.

I’d also really recommend you get good at the ranged abilities on melee weapons (axe and gs for warrior for example). Otherwise going full melee against a ranged build is just asking to die (condi or not).

[Alatar.7364]

@AegisFLCL.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:Immobilizing can help delete them quickly, however I understand with their stupid evade frame when on DD and Infiltrators Return it's almost undoable.

I don't even know if I wanna whine about them or not, it's been here before and got nerfed before, it's insanely cheesy and too rewarding, but somehow so braindead I can't bother thinking about it.

What I actually hate the most about it is the fact how quickly 90% of Thief community jumped to that Build

the moment it became broken again, kind of disappointing. At this point it's almost joyful to get killed by any other Thief build, maybe except Condi D/D DD, Grrrr.

To address the bolded point:

It's incredibly hard to contest any fight in melee on a power based thief; the amount of AOE dmg and CC is too oppressive in the current meta, especially after nerfs to sword chain and non-existent access to stability.

I played this build the previous season on my thief, and while it is WAY more OP as a +1 build than any current power build, in a 1v1 situation or when you're aware of a condi thief in a team fight, the majority of damage is easily avoidable. The biggest issues with this build are confusion and players blowing cleanses at the wrong time; confusion should have it DoT component removed in PvP, and dev's should look at a reduction in scaling/dmg per stack of confusion, possibly add cleansing priorities (thats a lot of work however).

With some adjustments to confusion/steal/traits, I don't think there's too much too adjust with this build. The amount of AOE garbage in this game makes it incredibly hard to play a melee class without incredible sustain (i.e. Spellbreaker and Holosmith); rev is also suffering for similar reasons. A short summary is the current Meta has pushed players into this build as, to me at least, it is the most optimal build for a good performance across all situations.

I don't think it has easily avoidable dmg, most of it comes from it s Evades so by the time you waste your own Evades and clenses it can just happily spam IS to apply lots of poison because it has full INI pool and probably Steal already off Recharge.I tried to benchmark this with some people and by the time I was out of dodges, clenses and heals, it's dmg was already reapplicable and unavoidable while I had no chance to apply DMG myself unless eating all of its Condi spam.

[Falan.1839]

The build has disgusting condi burst potential with very little risk when engaging due to its high mobility and the hit & run nature of sword 2. Also it has a very low skill ceiling. The current mirage "meta" build with axe/torch and sword/pistol takes requires somewhat clean mechanics at least because if your dodges and leaps are not on point you can melt quite quickly under pressure of a counterpressuring sidenoders (such as Sb or holo). As a holo I definitely prefer fighting condi mirage over condi thief.

[SPESHAL.9106]

These kind of builds and condi mirage are the things you MAYBE expect to see right after the release of a new expansion.It's not something that should survive or be created well into an expansion if there are proper internal testing protocols. The fact that Mesmer needed 3 nerfs during a season and STILL is OP with certain builds this far into an expansion is pretty embarrassing when virtually everyone agrees on the problem. You expect some imbalances, but things in this game were so obvious...so long ago...that it makes you wonder if there is any internal testing at all.

I remember they had to emergency patch a problem with Necro Epidemic awhile back that was so obvious that it was clear ZERO internal testing had been done of the change they made. I think they are just doing balance patches based on spreadsheet formulas and not actually testing things they implement (or obviously test them VERY poorly). The problem is further compounded by them taking forever to do balance patches.

[AegisFLCL.7623]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@AegisFLCL.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:Immobilizing can help delete them quickly, however I understand with their stupid evade frame when on DD and Infiltrators Return it's almost undoable.

I don't even know if I wanna whine about them or not, it's been here before and got nerfed before, it's insanely cheesy and too rewarding, but somehow so braindead I can't bother thinking about it.

What I actually hate the most about it is the fact how quickly 90% of Thief community jumped to that Build

the moment it became broken again, kind of disappointing. At this point it's almost joyful to get killed by any other Thief build, maybe except Condi D/D DD, Grrrr.

To address the bolded point:

It's incredibly hard to contest any fight in melee on a power based thief; the amount of AOE dmg and CC is too oppressive in the current meta, especially after nerfs to sword chain and non-existent access to stability.

I played this build the previous season on my thief, and while it is WAY more OP as a +1 build than any current power build, in a 1v1 situation or when you're aware of a condi thief in a team fight, the majority of damage is easily avoidable. The biggest issues with this build are confusion and players blowing cleanses at the wrong time; confusion should have it DoT component removed in PvP, and dev's should look at a reduction in scaling/dmg per stack of confusion, possibly add cleansing priorities (thats a lot of work however).

With some adjustments to confusion/steal/traits, I don't think there's too much too adjust with this build. The amount of AOE garbage in this game makes it incredibly hard to play a melee class without incredible sustain (i.e. Spellbreaker and Holosmith); rev is also suffering for similar reasons. A short summary is the current Meta has pushed players into this build as, to me at least, it is the most optimal build for a good performance across all situations.

I don't think it has easily avoidable dmg, most of it comes from it s Evades so by the time you waste your own Evades and clenses it can just happily spam IS to apply lots of poison because it has full INI pool and probably Steal already off Recharge.I tried to benchmark this with some people and by the time I was out of dodges, clenses and heals, it's dmg was already reapplicable and unavoidable while I had no chance to apply DMG myself unless eating all of its Condi spam.

• The majority of meta builds have some kind of gap closer, if you are sitting in choking gas while a condi thief spams dodges over you, thats honestly a problem with your positioning.

• This build generally runs 1 stunbreak, it doesn't take long to learn when the evade frame is over on lotus dodge, use a cc skill then. You want to avoid mindlessly using skills while they spam dodges. Most power variant builds can 100-0 a condi thief in a cc chain. The only power build that really seemed to have a hard time dealing with the condi thief build is rev.

• Most condi thieves will open with steal. Learn the approximate range and practice dodging their engage. It's pretty easy to avoid the opening steal which forces the thief into downtime if they're smart; just avoid sitting in choking gas at this point. If they use shadowstep into steal you are now at a massive advantage if they immediately recast shadow step and they stupidly try to re-engage while having no stunbreak (again watch for the end of the evade frame).

• Save multi condi cleanse for steal as they have no interrupt except for casted basi venom.

Honestly the higher my rating rose, the less effective the build became and there was an obvious drop-off point. Mirage and scourge are far more oppressive in terms of condi application and overall damage, while having MUCH higher offensive up-time. I think with a few changes to how confusion works and scales (remove DoT in PvP), and removing a cover condition or two from traits, it could be easier to deal with but, mirage and scourge are far more dangerous as far as meta condi spec's are concerned.

P.S. Thief is incredibly hard to balance because of the initiative system and skils/traits without ICD can be spammed.

[saerni.2584]

Aegis is correct.

But I’ll add in a helpful reminder. Sometimes a condi thief will kill you. Try to avoid making all your deaths into balance issues. It isn’t healthy.

[ArthurDent.9538]

Guys, just dodge steal.

[Mythical.1574]

i too think condi thief should be nerfed since it very easy to play and can melt easy less good players but there are some workarounds it.for 1 thing , once you know its a condi thief you and your team should constantly aiming at him and always be aware of his presense (just like with deadeye rifle).if you play scourge then be prepared for condi transfer - its very nice thing to see condi thief melt by his own poisen!if you are core guard then its very easy kill with blocks(aegis) burst and condi removal.havent played warrior for a while , but with so many cc skills the thief could be killed just watch some streams on how good players do it.mesmer have also so many cc skills and with so much condi the thief usually has hard time battling cc and condi removal.

still the condi thief dps output its just too much ATM , with a little nerf to its condi output its should be ok.btw please nerf mesmers aswell and make pvp a little bit more playable.

[RayssaMoreira.3728]

There is a big difference in what some people are talking about. There are specializations that need to be nerfadas, that's obvious. I'm specifically talking about plat 2 / plat 3 games, where good players with absurdly strong builds (mirage and thief) do what they want in the game. Of course there are people who do not know how to play with the class and based on these experiences, some will say no problem ... Play against a thief condition at this level and try to capture the point using a warrior, for example. I doubt you can do that.

[AegisFLCL.7623]

@RayssaMoreira.3728 said:There is a big difference in what some people are talking about. There are specializations that need to be nerfadas, that's obvious. I'm specifically talking about plat 2 / plat 3 games, where good players with absurdly strong builds (mirage and thief) do what they want in the game. Of course there are people who do not know how to play with the class and based on these experiences, some will say no problem ... Play against a thief condition at this level and try to capture the point using a warrior, for example. I doubt you can do that.

If I had to guess I'd say I had around an 80% win rate against a spellbreaker 1v1, but more importantly it's generally a bad investment for the thief. They can't decap the point while the warrior is on point and it takes a tremendous amount of time to take down a warrior who is rotating skills/resistance well. Just don't sit in choking gas and LOS around the point while they're using SB.

Spellbreaker has the best chance at surviving long enough to create an opening in which a thief doesn't have a cc break, then it is over for the thief. The handful of good warriors I've played against will quickly punish mistakes, and quickly take out a thief.

[Math.5123]

Core guard completely utterly destroys Condi thieves.

[Poseidon.3852]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Core guard completely utterly destroys Condi thieves.

Core Guardian destroys everything at the moment, tho.

As for the Condy Thief discussion... Even as a Rev, I found other Thief specs much harder to play against than condi thief. What I find bad about it is that it is annoying and you if you don't have a cleanse, you can't do anything else. You can't just dodge its big condi burst like you can against condi mirage, and it has much more mobility than a scourge.

Ultimately, if you know the enemy team is running a condi thief, you just run from it if it counters you. That is alright, not every class should be viable against any other class in a 1vs1. Your team should be also aware of many things as you are on a personal level. If that is the case, the condi thief grows obsolete very fast in a high level pvp fight. However, like most classes at this moment, it does need some changes... FAST.

They are really too rarely patching PvP... or patching stuff in general. They seem to add more new things than they are changing old ones... oh, and completely reworking stuff that is broken is unfathomable to them, it seems. They must be dealing with some huge budget issues. Shame.

[AegisFLCL.7623]

@"Pusseidon.9534" said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Core guard completely utterly destroys Condi thieves.

Core Guardian destroys everything at the moment, tho.

As for the Condy Thief discussion... Even as a Rev, I found other Thief specs much harder to play against than condi thief. What I find bad about it is that it is annoying and you if you don't have a cleanse, you can't do anything else. You can't just dodge its big condi burst like you can against condi mirage, and it has much more mobility than a scourge.

Ultimately, if you know the enemy team is running a condi thief, you just run from it if it counters you. That is alright, not every class should be viable against any other class in a 1vs1. Your team should be also aware of many things as you are on a personal level. If that is the case, the condi thief grows obsolete very fast in a high level pvp fight. However, like most classes at this moment, it does need some changes... FAST.

They are really too rarely patching PvP... or patching stuff in general. They seem to add more new things than they are changing old ones... oh, and completely reworking stuff that is broken is unfathomable to them, it seems. They must be dealing with some huge budget issues. Shame.

As far as we know, three people balance the entirety of the game. Three! That's their problem.

I'm sure they're laughing all the way to the bank with the amount of people buying Gemstore items...