New patch... PLEASE GOD

[otto.5684]

@Justine.6351 said:Eh, you don't speak for me. I'm quite enjoying rev the last few months.

I am not. I primarily like condi rev, which outside of raids sucks in everything. Even there, last patch pushed it down that majority of builds on other classes out dps it, outside large boxes. Power rev after 3-4 patches still not end game PvE viable. It is mid tier in sPvP.

To add, there is a serious lack of diversity in every game mode. SPvP you can only play power herald. PvE only condi renegade and wvw only power hammer. And what makes matter worse, the new elite, beside that it is epic fail in every game mode, it added nothing to the class in terms of viability.

[Buran.3796]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

How in your opinion is the gameplay significantly different now? Is it just the damage/sustain output? How do you feel it could be changed without making it OP like it was for much of HoT?

I'm genuinely curious about the above questions btw. I know that there are definitely people in your camp where the current rev doesn't appeal to them, but used to, so I'm interested in that perspective. For me personally, I don't feel the gameplay is vastly different for Power, so its hard for me to intuitively understand your positions. Additionally, I think a lot of us, like the others quoted, have a genuine desire to preserve the current/past playstyles and don't want to add 4 attunements/energy gain/no weapon energy/etc. and so the guardian/warrior/elementalist comments are more geared towards people that want the class to be more like those classes and aren't aimed at people (like you) that love the original design and want that to be kept.

Old power Rev had favorable PvP matchups. Current one loses in every 1 vs 1 if both players are equally skilled. And if you're thinking about playing as a +1, then half of the roster does that role better. Mesmers, Thieves, Rangers and Holos had much better burst damage while also keeping more mobility and stronger sustain (while also having free access to stealth, cleanses and disengaging tools). Those four can also pressure enemies at range, so don't have to deal with AoE damage and cc from Scourges, Weavers and Firebrands if they don't want. So essentially they have the strong tools (damage, spikes, sustain, mobility, viable at mele and ranged combat...) whereas Rev has the weakness (lack of cleansing, energy + cd cost, no flexibility in both skills, traits and weapons...).

@Narcx: I'll never take a trait over Swift Termination. Didn't saw a top roamer using Brutality or AA, and the changes in IO really damaged the chances of landing hammer skills in small skirmishes (I mean 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2, any one can hit targets if the screen is full of them).

I known that some players are good enough to compete at any PvP tier with any class, but that doesn't change the fact: any time a player uses Rev in PvP his team would have more chances of success if they had a different class instead.

[Nilson.9865]

IO with quickness will make me happy.

[Clownmug.8357]

I read the topic title in this voice.

[Chuck.2864]

@Buran.3796 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

How in your opinion is the gameplay significantly different now? Is it just the damage/sustain output? How do you feel it could be changed without making it OP like it was for much of HoT?

I'm genuinely curious about the above questions btw. I know that there are definitely people in your camp where the current rev doesn't appeal to them, but used to, so I'm interested in that perspective. For me personally, I don't feel the gameplay is vastly different for Power, so its hard for me to intuitively understand your positions. Additionally, I think a lot of us, like the others quoted, have a genuine desire to preserve the current/past playstyles and don't want to add 4 attunements/energy gain/no weapon energy/etc. and so the guardian/warrior/elementalist comments are more geared towards people that want the class to be more like those classes and aren't aimed at people (like you) that love the original design and want that to be kept.

Old power Rev had favorable PvP matchups. Current one loses in every 1 vs 1 if both players are equally skilled. And if you're thinking about playing as a +1, then half of the roster does that role better. Mesmers, Thieves, Rangers and Holos had much better burst damage while also keeping more mobility and stronger sustain (while also having free access to stealth, cleanses and disengaging tools). Those four can also pressure enemies at range, so don't have to deal with AoE damage and cc from Scourges, Weavers and Firebrands if they don't want. So essentially they have the strong tools (damage, spikes, sustain, mobility, viable at mele and ranged combat...) whereas Rev has the weakness (lack of cleansing, energy + cd cost, no flexibility in both skills, traits and weapons...).

@Narcx: I'll never take a trait over Swift Termination. Didn't saw a top roamer using Brutality or AA, and the changes in IO really damaged the chances of landing hammer skills in small skirmishes (I mean 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2, any one can hit targets if the screen is full of them).

I known that some players are good enough to compete at any PvP tier with any class, but that doesn't change the fact: any time a player uses Rev in PvP his team would have more chances of success if they had a different class instead.

Like almost nothing here is true. Rev is at least 50\50 in a 1v1 vs any Power build. It's really quite a good 1v1er into Power builds, it simply isn't played as such in PvP for the same reason Thief isn't, because it can't really contest the node and because it's a waste of time when your strength is in your ability to +1, and in that role it's one of the best in this meta. Ridiculous to suggest Rangers and Holos have a higher burst and are better at +1, do you actually play Rev in PvP these days? A decent Rev is among the few that can +1 against a SB, Druid or Weaver and instantly delete them.

I've never seen any decent PvP Rev pick Swift Termination, and "top roamers" tend to be top PvP players. It's not worth giving up on the sustain and extra damage from AA or the stronger burst and utility (quick Glint\Shiro elites, quick Renewing Wave) from Brutality.

Rev is really not in a bad spot in PvP if you overlook the fact it only has one viable build. If we see some real nerfs to condi Mirage and condi Thief this week it will be in an even better spot, like top tier. There are more and more Revs being played in PvP, including in the mAT's by top players like yesterday. If you grew frustrated with it in PvP, now is a great time to give it another shot.

[Buran.3796]

@"Chuck.2864" said:

Like almost nothing here is true. Rev is at least 50\50 in a 1v1 vs any Power build. It's really quite a good 1v1er into Power builds, it simply isn't played as such in PvP for the same reason Thief isn't, because it can't really contest the node and because it's a waste of time when your strength is in your ability to +1, and in that role it's one of the best in this meta. Ridiculous to suggest Rangers and Holos have a higher burst and are better at +1, do you actually play Rev in PvP these days? A decent Rev is among the few that can +1 against a SB, Druid or Weaver and instantly delete them.

I've never seen any decent PvP Rev pick Swift Termination, and "top roamers" tend to be top PvP players. It's not worth giving up on the sustain and extra damage from AA or the stronger burst and utility (quick Glint\Shiro elites, quick Renewing Wave) from Brutality.

That last paragraph is so weird... Tubby Two Ton (Porcelain Papi, which posted a vid just a week ago in this same forum) uses Swift Termination, and He is (no doubt) amongst the three best Rev players in the game, and is far from being the only one (Justine uses also the trait while roaming). I mean: you have half of the power thieves using Scholar runes for the +10% damage while at 90%+ HP and as a Rev you will dimiss the use of a perk which increases you damage a 20% agaisnt weakened foes (which in a +1 role probably should be your main targets)? Brutality is for zerging and clan scrims, and the life siphoning from AA escalates so bad and is so buggy and unreliable that ST just outshadows the other two (in the same way that Righteous Instincts became mandatory in any optimized power Guardian build).

At even skills Rev won't beat a power Mesmer, SB (which mas more blocks, stuns and dazes than breakstuns/blocks/evades the Rev has) or Ranger (which can play in PvP with zerker amulet and daze/stun/knockback from stealth and then instantly crit for 11k pet attack + his own hits). Also, I only play Rev and only PvP these days and this class is in its absolute lowest point at any game mode since its inception (that "potato" nickname was a freehand).

[Chuck.2864]

@Buran.3796I don't know what build Tubby has in his YT channel but I watch his streams and he swaps between the 3 GM traits all the time. From what I've seen he uses Brutality more than Swift Termination. I also watch Bryvanent occasionally and he never picks it. Look at the top end of PvP (I have no idea who Justine is, is this NA?), I've watched the EU mAT's and no one runs it. Most people run AA incidentally, I think Brutality is also great and it's a matter of preference.

And yeah, I'll dismiss Swift Termination because it isn't worth it. You'll get a bigger DPS increase when +1'ing from quickness than you will from this.Or rather to rephrase it, it's not a terrible trait and it's certainly very viable but I'm arguing the other 2 traits are more useful in most situations. I run Brutality but if I wasn't lazy I'd probably swap back and forth between AA and Brutality depending on what I'm fighting (AA is useful against high toughness because the Siphon damage ignores it, see Spellbreaker). It's definitely not even close to being a Righteous Instincts equivalent, RI is mandatory because it lets you reach a high crit chance without any Precision so you can run Valkyrie amulet\gear. It's literally the heart of any core Guard DPS build.

If you want a better comparison, look at Thief, an even more pure +1 class than Power Rev. Thief has Executioner in Deadly Arts, which is literally the exact same trait as Swift Termination. Almost no one uses it, because even as a +1 the utility from Improv is more universally useful than some flat damage increase that may or may not be helpful or even needed.

I disagree on the matchups, especially that SB beats Rev, but we'll agree to disagree. I somewhat agree with Ranger as in a good Druid is a difficult matchup due to immob spam, stealth & kiting you with LB.

[Soulbrew.7165]

I personally am looking foward to have a mechanic similar to trident in the whole class. It is so fun.

[Loboling.5293]

Personally I consider renegade to be a flop in many ways. It can be interesting, but they didn't do anything interesting for shortbow and the skills lack any flexibility.

Otherwise, I've always felt that base rev should have a few base utility skills. Just 1 heal, 3 utility and one elite. These would help them adapt to have more condi cleanse, stunbreak, damage.

They are also missing another base weapons, and with the introduction of trident, I'm still holding up hope for a new one.

With that the flexibility of the Rev would sky rocket. From there we would need to see if they need anything else. But I'd be back to maining Rev. Otherwise, it'll remain my main alt. Since I absolutely love the theme and look. The skills are fun and it's for sure my favorite class. But it doesn't handle meta changes well. It can't adapt to things the way other classes can.

Ps: I mostly PvP.

[narcx.3570]

@"Chuck.2864" said:

I've never seen any decent PvP Rev pick Swift Termination, and "top roamers" tend to be top PvP players. It's not worth giving up on the sustain and extra damage from AA or the stronger burst and utility (quick Glint\Shiro elites, quick Renewing Wave) from Brutality.

I use swift termination prolly 75% of the time when wvw roaming. :anguished:

The amount of mid fight pressure it can generate during even a simple combo like PT+PS is tremendous and usually ends up preventing more incoming damage through pure offensive pressure than AA compensates for in healing. It's also great at burning through scourge's panic barriers. It does fall behind I think when fighting 1v2+ tho... As these are much longer fights.

I do usually use AA or Brutality in sPvP though (unless I see the comps and know I'm just gonna be ganking hard all match) where you have less area to work with, smaller windows to burst, and the type of incoming dmg where AA makes a more noticeable difference... I do think Brutality is somewhat wasted in sPvP tho because you're most likely running Agility on your sword and/or using PT as an opener when +1'ing, but it does have its uses... And I guess it would free up a sigil spot if you like other options, but they're all pretty meh these days, imo.

[Milan.9035]

And there was zero balance changes. When was the last time that a patch changed something that rev used.

[otto.5684]

@Buran.3796 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

How in your opinion is the gameplay significantly different now? Is it just the damage/sustain output? How do you feel it could be changed without making it OP like it was for much of HoT?

I'm genuinely curious about the above questions btw. I know that there are definitely people in your camp where the current rev doesn't appeal to them, but used to, so I'm interested in that perspective. For me personally, I don't feel the gameplay is vastly different for Power, so its hard for me to intuitively understand your positions. Additionally, I think a lot of us, like the others quoted, have a genuine desire to preserve the current/past playstyles and don't want to add 4 attunements/energy gain/no weapon energy/etc. and so the guardian/warrior/elementalist comments are more geared towards people that want the class to be more like those classes and aren't aimed at people (like you) that love the original design and want that to be kept.

Old power Rev had favorable PvP matchups. Current one loses in every 1 vs 1 if both players are equally skilled. And if you're thinking about playing as a +1, then half of the roster does that role better. Mesmers, Thieves, Rangers and Holos had much better burst damage while also keeping more mobility and stronger sustain (while also having free access to stealth, cleanses and disengaging tools). Those four can also pressure enemies at range, so don't have to deal with AoE damage and cc from Scourges, Weavers and Firebrands if they don't want. So essentially they have the strong tools (damage, spikes, sustain, mobility, viable at mele and ranged combat...) whereas Rev has the weakness (lack of cleansing, energy + cd cost, no flexibility in both skills, traits and weapons...).

@Narcx: I'll never take a trait over Swift Termination. Didn't saw a top roamer using Brutality or AA, and the changes in IO really damaged the chances of landing hammer skills in small skirmishes (I mean 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2, any one can hit targets if the screen is full of them).

I known that some players are good enough to compete at any PvP tier with any class, but that doesn't change the fact: any time a player uses Rev in PvP his team would have more chances of success if they had a different class instead.

Power rev has decent match-ups against power warrior, power guardian, ele (all builds), holo and scrapper, solo. As someone who mostly plays core guardians in sPvP nowadays, beast master followed by rev then holo, are the worst three match-up for me (assuming equal skill). I burn through mirages like butter :p

Obviously solo is not rev specialty. It is extremely hard countered by condis, multiple targets and boon corrupt removal. And this issue is not a solo exclusive issue. It is actually more problematic in med fights. Man, I need to be more sneaky than thief to successfully land my burst and get out safely.

[narcx.3570]

@Milan.9035 said:And there was zero balance changes. When was the last time that a patch changed something that rev used.

The underwater update gave you splish-splash-beachparty Jalis mode and an entirely new weapon that you all love so much. And the last major balance update had a lot of buffs... Justt all of them were for Renegade and only really see use in PvE. Still nice though, made short bow a fun/viable/meta pick for at least one game mode and helped kill our old boring channel+aa rotation.

[Impulsefish.1460]

Is any one else having trouble with renegade skills not snapping to target . All the ground target skills don't work for renegade legend and only snap to my cursor not target.