Necro and Fear

[trixantea.1230]

Reserved post.

[Lahmia.2193]

@trixantea.1230 said:

• By Removing the 300 ferocity (we already have it in Death Perception) and the perma quickness in Reaper's Onslaught and turning it into 25-45% attack speed which can stack with quickness buffs, the reaper will be able to keep a descent attack speed when soloing and will also benefit from playing with a quickness support in both PvE and PvP.

The idea of stackable attack speed buffs has been floating around for a while now. The fact that anet changed RO to give quickness, kind of suggests they aren't going to change it or can't change it. Also removing the ferocity buff is a big no no. Even with all the recent damage buffs, Reaper is still mid to low tier damage (though very bursty). Curbing the damage in pvp is a much more palatable suggestion, but only in pvp. Pve Reaper is in a good spot.

[trixantea.1230]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@trixantea.1230 said:

• By Removing the 300 ferocity (we already have it in
  Death Perception
  ) and the perma quickness in
  Reaper's Onslaught
  and turning it into 25-45% attack speed which can stack with quickness buffs, the reaper will be able to keep a descent attack speed when soloing and will also benefit from playing with a quickness support in both PvE and PvP.

The idea of stackable attack speed buffs has been floating around for a while now. The fact that anet changed RO to give quickness, kind of suggests they aren't going to change it or can't change it. Also removing the ferocity buff is a big no no. Even with all the recent damage buffs, Reaper is still mid to low tier damage (though very bursty). Curbing the damage in pvp is a much more palatable suggestion, but only in pvp. Pve Reaper is in a good spot.

I suggested the removal of ferocity in Reaper's Onslaught in order to compensate for the huge 80% attack speed while in shroud (30% attack speed + 50% from quickness). Also, the trait doesn't feel unique because we already have a ferocity buff it in Soul Reaping.

PvP wise I think this will be a perfect change in order to reduce the big burst damage that people are complaining about and to increase the benefit from having a support alongside the Reaper.

[mazut.4296]

There is the opportunity of creating an effect similar to Dread. "When you fear an enemy empower your party(or raid wide 10 man) with 10-20% dps increase for 6sec. Radius 300-360"

[Sigmoid.7082]

@trixantea.1230 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@trixantea.1230 said:

• By Removing the 300 ferocity (we already have it in
  Death Perception
  ) and the perma quickness in
  Reaper's Onslaught
  and turning it into 25-45% attack speed which can stack with quickness buffs, the reaper will be able to keep a descent attack speed when soloing and will also benefit from playing with a quickness support in both PvE and PvP.

The idea of stackable attack speed buffs has been floating around for a while now. The fact that anet changed RO to give quickness, kind of suggests they aren't going to change it or can't change it. Also removing the ferocity buff is a big no no. Even with all the recent damage buffs, Reaper is still mid to low tier damage (though very bursty). Curbing the damage in pvp is a much more palatable suggestion, but only in pvp. Pve Reaper is in a good spot.

I suggested the removal of ferocity in Reaper's Onslaught in order to compensate for the huge 80% attack speed while in shroud (30% attack speed + 50% from quickness). Also, the trait doesn't feel unique because we already have a ferocity buff it in Soul Reaping.

PvP wise I think this will be a perfect change in order to reduce the big burst damage that people are complaining about and to increase the benefit from having a support alongside the Reaper.

The ferocity buff in reaper came first." We have one in Soul Reaping". What about everyone who doesn't want to take that line? There is a reason is local to reaper.Everything is balance around being at max 50% faster with quickness. Anything higher and you would need to balance more thing around it because it then becomes unique.Your idea would do the opposite of reduce burst.Your idea reduces counter-play because its a flat bonus.

Its just not a good idea overall.

[trixantea.1230]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@trixantea.1230 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@trixantea.1230 said:

• By Removing the 300 ferocity (we already have it in
  Death Perception
  ) and the perma quickness in
  Reaper's Onslaught
  and turning it into 25-45% attack speed which can stack with quickness buffs, the reaper will be able to keep a descent attack speed when soloing and will also benefit from playing with a quickness support in both PvE and PvP.

The idea of stackable attack speed buffs has been floating around for a while now. The fact that anet changed RO to give quickness, kind of suggests they aren't going to change it or can't change it. Also removing the ferocity buff is a big no no. Even with all the recent damage buffs, Reaper is still mid to low tier damage (though very bursty). Curbing the damage in pvp is a much more palatable suggestion, but only in pvp. Pve Reaper is in a good spot.

I suggested the removal of ferocity in Reaper's Onslaught in order to compensate for the huge 80% attack speed while in shroud (30% attack speed + 50% from quickness). Also, the trait doesn't feel unique because we already have a ferocity buff it in Soul Reaping.

PvP wise I think this will be a perfect change in order to reduce the big burst damage that people are complaining about and to increase the benefit from having a support alongside the Reaper.

The ferocity buff in reaper came first." We have one in Soul Reaping". What about everyone who doesn't want to take that line? There is a reason is local to reaper.Everything is balance around being at max 50% faster with quickness. Anything higher and you would need to balance more thing around it because it then becomes unique.Your idea would do the opposite of reduce burst.Your idea reduces counter-play because its a flat bonus.

Its just not a good idea overall.

If you have already read my earlier post you wouldn't be thinking of this as a nerf.

With the changes to Onslaught I also suggested to make shroud 3 a stunbreak as a trade for it. It may seem like an insignificant tweak but in PvP situation the stunbreak will not only enhance the gameplay for reaper but it will also make the difference between landing a kill/stomp or not landing it.

In case of PvE, changing the trait into a 25 to 45% flat attack speed will definitely increase the dps by a significant amount because it will stack with quickess. So in order to keep the reaper dps within an accepetable range, the ferocity in Onslaught has to be removed.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@trixantea.1230 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@trixantea.1230 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@trixantea.1230 said:

• By Removing the 300 ferocity (we already have it in
  Death Perception
  ) and the perma quickness in
  Reaper's Onslaught
  and turning it into 25-45% attack speed which can stack with quickness buffs, the reaper will be able to keep a descent attack speed when soloing and will also benefit from playing with a quickness support in both PvE and PvP.

The idea of stackable attack speed buffs has been floating around for a while now. The fact that anet changed RO to give quickness, kind of suggests they aren't going to change it or can't change it. Also removing the ferocity buff is a big no no. Even with all the recent damage buffs, Reaper is still mid to low tier damage (though very bursty). Curbing the damage in pvp is a much more palatable suggestion, but only in pvp. Pve Reaper is in a good spot.

I suggested the removal of ferocity in Reaper's Onslaught in order to compensate for the huge 80% attack speed while in shroud (30% attack speed + 50% from quickness). Also, the trait doesn't feel unique because we already have a ferocity buff it in Soul Reaping.

PvP wise I think this will be a perfect change in order to reduce the big burst damage that people are complaining about and to increase the benefit from having a support alongside the Reaper.

The ferocity buff in reaper came first." We have one in Soul Reaping". What about everyone who doesn't want to take that line? There is a reason is local to reaper.Everything is balance around being at max 50% faster with quickness. Anything higher and you would need to balance more thing around it because it then becomes unique.Your idea would do the opposite of reduce burst.Your idea reduces counter-play because its a flat bonus.

Its just not a good idea overall.

If you have already read my earlier post you wouldn't be thinking of this as a nerf.

I already read your post and it didn't change my opinion of your idea.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"trixantea.1230" said:If you have already read my earlier post you wouldn't be thinking of this as a nerf.

With the changes to Onslaught I also suggested to make shroud 3 a stunbreak as a trade for it. It may seem like an insignificant tweak but in PvP situation the stunbreak will not only enhance the gameplay for reaper but it will also make the difference between landing a kill/stomp or not landing it.

In case of PvE, changing the trait into a 25 to 45% flat attack speed will definitely increase the dps by a significant amount because it will stack with quickess. So in order to keep the reaper dps within an accepetable range, the ferocity in Onslaught has to be removed.

I think sigmoi tell you that the increase in burst is way more of an issue than the increase in dps is due to the fact that the attack speed increase reduce the possible counterplay and that your idea that lead to even more attack speed is not the proper solution here since it goes down futher the wrong way.

It's not that he didn't read what you wrote it's just that he look at it with from a different, and more objective, point of view. Faster attack while in shroud is definitely more of an issue than attack that hit harder but are slower. (Ah and even with 25-45% more attack speed in shroud, I doubt that it would be enough to make the necromancer the unmatchable top dps of the game, maybe top PKer but not top dps)

Also a discussion about reaper onslaught hardly fit into this thread which is initially about "necro & fear".

[trixantea.1230]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I think sigmoi tell you that the increase in burst is way more of an issue than the increase in dps is due to the fact that the attack speed increase reduce the possible counterplay and that your idea that lead to even more attack speed is not the proper solution here since it goes down futher the wrong way.

It's not that he didn't read what you wrote it's just that he look at it with from a different, and more objective, point of view. Faster attack while in shroud is definitely more of an issue than attack that hit harder but are slower. (Ah and even with 25-45% more attack speed in shroud, I doubt that it would be enough to make the necromancer the unmatchable top dps of the game, maybe top PKer but not top dps)

Also a discussion about reaper onslaught hardly fit into this thread which is initially about "necro & fear".

The main problem with Onslaught is the impossibility to benefit from external sources of quickness which reduces the efficiency of some support builds while playing with reaper.

Claiming that a flat attack speed reduces the counter-play compared to the quickness buff is not convincing because each time you lose quickness due to boon corruption/removal you will have it again after less than 2-3 seconds. The numbers I suggested (25-45%) is actually less than the 50% from quickness which is a decrease to the "overall" attack speed/burst and not increase it as claimed.

Reapers are already complaining about the lack of mobility and the vulnerability to cc. What you call reducing the counter-play reduces the chance to get that 2-3 sec of slow debuff from corrupting quickness, a thing that puts the reaper another step behind the other classes in terms of controlling your character and being able to deal damage.

[Dadnir.5038]

@trixantea.1230 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I think sigmoi tell you that the increase in burst is way more of an issue than the increase in dps is due to the fact that the attack speed increase reduce the possible counterplay and that your idea that lead to even more attack speed is not the proper solution here since it goes down futher the wrong way.

It's not that he didn't read what you wrote it's just that he look at it with from a different, and more objective, point of view. Faster attack while in shroud is definitely more of an issue than attack that hit harder but are slower. (Ah and even with 25-45% more attack speed in shroud, I doubt that it would be enough to make the necromancer the unmatchable top dps of the game, maybe top PKer but not top dps)

Also a discussion about

reaper onslaught

hardly fit into this thread which is initially about "necro & fear".

The main problem with Onslaught is the impossibility to benefit from external sources of quickness which reduces the efficiency of some support builds while playing with reaper.

Is it? Reaper onslaught grant you more than quickness so in fact this is minor inconvenience. Moreover, this only affect you in shroud, maybe 40% uptime max. Support build that grant quickness still are valuable, at the very least more valuable than healing builds that don't heal you while you are in shroud.

Claiming that a flat attack speed reduces the counter-play compared to the quickness buff is not convincing because each time you lose quickness due to boon corruption/removal you will have it again after less than 2-3 seconds. The numbers I suggested (25-45%) is actually less than the 50% from quickness which is a decrease to the "overall" attack speed/burst and not increase it as claimed.

Except that you suggest this attack speed buff to be stackable with quickness which reduce the counterplay due to the excessive attack speed. Unless you don't remember, the reaper had an attack speed buff, albeit non stackable with quickness, on RO before and nobody cared about it. The issue lie in the fact that you suggest that this buff become stackable with quickness.

Reapers are already complaining about the lack of mobility and the vulnerability to cc. What you call reducing the counter-play reduces the chance to get that 2-3 sec of slow debuff from corrupting quickness, a thing that puts the reaper another step behind the other classes in terms of controlling your character and being able to deal damage.

Low mobility and vulnerability to CC is an issue that touch the necromancer as a whole, not just reaper. This issue need to be addressed at the core not on an e-spec described as the slow and hard hitting movie monster. Beside, counter play isn't just boon corruption, it's also interrupt which is a lot more common on other professions than boon corruption. Attack speed affect directly the other professions ability to interrupt or dodge the hard hitting skills of the reaper which is the main counterplay issue.

The main issue on the reaper right now isn't quickness. Honnestly, it's a bother to other professions but all in all it's manageable. The main issue is that the reaper can just disregard offensive stats like precision and gear with heavily defensive gear which mean that a tanky reaper can still deal glass canon level of damage. Nobody would care about a glassy spec that deal high damage with a fast attack speed, however a tanky spec that does that is bound to be criticized. All in all it always come down to the shroud doing to many thing at the same time and the traits trying to support such design.

The more you look at it, the more you understand that every single issue of the necromancer is related to the shroud design which entertwined defense, offense and support all at the same time. Quickness, and necromancer damage buffs in general, just make the issue more glaring from other professions point of view which then ask for damage nerfs while in fact the necromancer isn't even doing more damage than other professions. It's all a trade off issue, certainly not a "number" issue, what you suggest, a number tweek, will only make things worse in areas that you didn't expect.

[ZDragon.3046]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:

The main issue on the reaper right now isn't quickness. Honnestly, it's a bother to other professions but all in all it's manageable. The main issue is that the reaper can just disregard offensive stats like precision and gear with heavily defensive gear which mean that a tanky reaper can still deal glass canon level of damage. Nobody would care about a glassy spec that deal high damage with a fast attack speed, however a tanky spec that does that is bound to be criticized. All in all it always come down to the shroud doing to many thing at the same time and the traits trying to support such design.

I would like to spark a conversation on this.

Stat distrubutionIs this not an acceptable thing considering the low mobility and resistance to cc? Not to mention despite what level the damage is its never instant damage which is often what the other professions perform in 1-2 seconds. There wont ever be a necro burst you didn't see coming with its long cast times and obvious tells. Even the beastly soul spiral with quickness often takes longer to completely wrap up than what other professions can do in near instant level burst while having mobility and overall better more active defenses. One of necros original selling points was "Tough to kill" Despite what people feel from other professions if we some how ended up with a mobile necro that deals glass damage when built for glass people will be upset cause they wont want to learn to play against it. Not to mention the ego's it could hurt knowing necro has never been something for them to worry about and suddenly it teleports to them and 1 shots them like a mesmer usually would. etc.

The shroud does too much.... but does itShroud does too many things at the same time but other professions often have several if not stupid amounts of instant cast skills that can be traited. combine enough of these and it creates a similar effect of doing too many actions at the same time ideally shroud wraps it under 1 button is the only difference. Should this be considered as well? After all how alot of professions other than necromancer do burst damage is by combining usually 1-2 instant cast skills with a skill that has a cast time.

Other considerationsOther professions often wear bonus stats in the form of several boons. Something necromancer is not the best at doing with its best boons being might in first place and protection in 2nd place followed by perhaps swiftness each being lesser in overall accessibility. Simply put necro cannot boon spam itself as well as other professions. Sure you can get a bit of help from well of power but thats not realistic or reliable as it wont always generate the same boons and is very situational im talking just natural boon application via traits and utility that will always generate the same boons consistently and heavy in application.

The more you look at it, the more you understand that every single issue of the necromancer is related to the shroud design which entertwined defense, offense and support all at the same time. Quickness, and necromancer damage buffs in general, just make the issue more glaring from other professions point of view which then ask for damage nerfs while in fact the necromancer isn't even doing more damage than other professions. It's all a trade off issue, certainly not a "number" issue, what you suggest, a number tweek, will only make things worse in areas that you didn't expect.

If its really a trade off issue im confused as to how it can be fixed without completely destroying the profession which will force people to relearn it. If shroud is the problem and it gets removed thats a drastic change and its not ideal for the overall majority yet these things should not be a "Must happen before you can be good"We could lower the damage but then that just means anet took the "one step forward and three steps back approach".We could nerf reaper.. but how... reaper is not realistically the problem...

Perhaps anet and the community in this game in general should maybe start looking at the idea that necro is going to be the big tough profession that can get alway with voiding certain stats and keep its damage intact at the loss of true active defenses and mobility? I guess what im saying is.. is it really an issue that needs to be called an issue when other professions have things going for them that necro does not have going for it. But when necro has something that no other profession has it must be culled and removed (which would be acceptable if something was put in its place to make up for it but this often does not happen till its 6-12 months too late Scourge is a perfect example right now.)

Im not saying you are wrong in your statements but im not sold on the idea that "Shroud" in itself is the only reason. Its ideally saying that removing this one things will make all dreams come true and it really wont.