Thief Doesn't needs BUFFS

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

i am not so sure about that.unless they find another way to make us use endurance for stealth. because if they just put it back into some cooldown system, we will have more dodges for actually evading attacks and not just for stealth, this can make it seem like we can evade even more then.for example f3 ' hold your breath' 1/4s cast uses 50 endurance to gain stealth for 3 seconds. then it is interruptable and you still cant use that endurance to dodge an attack, make it slower and it wont be used to enter/weave stealth just to remain in it cause of the cost. the + side for the deadeye is, it is faster than a current dodge and doesnt move the deadeye so you can again snipe better from an edge. but when i come out of stealth i then am attackable for the full 3s, now just a little over 2s. (+1 in spvp)

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

Beofre Stealth on Dodge was the Flavor of the day there was as many and more topics started about thiefs ports and dodges as OP needing curtailment. Even now when a thief given an option outisde dodge/stealth in order to survive an attack (4 seconds on a 90 second cooldown) topics started that it OP. Remove stealth on dodge and other mitigation measures needed and those same complaints will keep coming through.

To the DE in particular. It the DD spec that has extra dodges so it unlikely removing stealth access via dodge to DE will be made up for with more dodges. DE just does not have as many dodges as the DD spec and can not or the DD spec has no value. If it not high access to stealth what other mitigation measures are being suggested for a class with 11k hps base? More Invulns? More Ports? Either of those and there just more complaints.

Yup, You both have good points, and I'm personally not convinced that anything needs changing either with regards to stealth (hence my use of if). I'm more saying that stealth on dodge is the only arguably OP thing on deadeye at the moment IMO, and altering that would be a more meaningful change than anything to do with SA considering you can currently permastealth out of combat using DA/CS/DE and no stealth utilities and daredevil can get the same initial burst on backstab. People are going to get ganked by deadeyes who build for it no matter the change to SA, and the complaints ultimately boil down to the fact that people don't like getting killed by thieves imo.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Stealth on dodge is a huge gamble, trading dodge for stealth, and the only reason it's popular is that S/D hands out Endurance like candy.

The main issue for me is Malicious Tactical Strike (MTS). It just works very well with stealth on dodge.

IMO, the Endurance per Malice when using MTS should be nerfed.

[Turk.5460]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to stealth on weapon swap - with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as uninterruptible stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

We shouldn't base balance on the play style of one player. Limiting the ability to stack stealth outside of initiative use would alleviate a large portion of frustrations that people have when playing against us. If you wouldn't notice this change much on your play style, then why try to dissuade the suggestion? :3

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

We shouldn't base balance on the play style of one player. Limiting the ability to

stack

stealth outside of initiative use would alleviate a large portion of frustrations that people have when playing against us. If you wouldn't notice this change much on your play style, then why try to dissuade the suggestion? :3

pretty simple as then people will complain even more.i want deadeyes to use endurance over ini for stealth because endurance is a defensive resource while ini is mostly offensive. if we are less a threat offensive that might slow the fights down but that wont make it less frustrating. we are frustrating because we can simply enter stealth under pressure, how long we stay there or how is not as important for the opponent as just a little stealth is enough to get out of their reach or even ooc.if we use our endurance however for stealth (not with a dodge, but a skill to convert energy into stealth) then we are easier to pin down when we attack and we still have our ini up wich means we are more likely to attack. if i am in stealth and have stacked some, i obviously wont come out ini starved i will wait the full duration as at the end i will have my ini back. yet i might attack without a dodge ready now, betting on that i dont need one till it is up. i think deadeye is supposed to be an offensive, aggressive spec so energy for stealth over ini for stealth any day.with stealth on weapon swap, what is your opponent going to do, to get his hands on ya? i mean you open from stealth on them, wich usually already fills your malice up. then when they counter pressure just weapon swap wich as said works pretty much under any condition -> execute. dodge can at least be prevented with CC and while standing with immob. also i am not sure how fluid gameplay would be with different range on the weaponsets.and why do you think my suggestion is not good? i mean you could intterupt then any stealth access of a deadeye , aside from maybe blinding powder that is difficult. or is it just that you want ontop of stealth your dodges to evade attacks ? :3

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

We shouldn't base balance on the play style of one player. Limiting the ability to

stack

stealth outside of initiative use would alleviate a large portion of frustrations that people have when playing against us. If you wouldn't notice this change much on your play style, then why try to dissuade the suggestion? :3

pretty simple as then people will complain even more.i want deadeyes to use endurance over ini for stealth because endurance is a defensive resource while ini is mostly offensive. if we are less a threat offensive that might slow the fights down but that wont make it less frustrating. we are frustrating because we can simply enter stealth under pressure, how long we stay there or how is not as important for the opponent as just a little stealth is enough to get out of their reach or even ooc.if we use our endurance however for stealth (not with a dodge, but a skill to convert energy into stealth) then we are easier to pin down when we attack and we still have our ini up wich means we are more likely to attack. if i am in stealth and have stacked some, i obviously wont come out ini starved i will wait the full duration as at the end i will have my ini back. yet i might attack without a dodge ready now, betting on that i dont need one till it is up. i think deadeye is supposed to be an offensive, aggressive spec so energy for stealth over ini for stealth any day.with stealth on weapon swap, what is your opponent going to do, to get his hands on ya? i mean you open from stealth on them, wich usually already fills your malice up. then when they counter pressure just weapon swap wich as said works pretty much under any condition -> execute. dodge can at least be prevented with CC and while standing with immob.and why do you think my suggestion is not good? i mean you could intterupt then any stealth access of a deadeye , aside from maybe blinding powder that is difficult. or is it just that you want ontop of stealth your dodges to evade attacks ? :3

Being tied to endurance is not a strong argument right now, at least not in WvW where we have +90% endurance regen. This means that one dodge, 4seconds of stealth, is available just about every 5 seconds. Not much of a defensive trade-off, is it? :3

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

We shouldn't base balance on the play style of one player. Limiting the ability to

stack

stealth outside of initiative use would alleviate a large portion of frustrations that people have when playing against us. If you wouldn't notice this change much on your play style, then why try to dissuade the suggestion? :3

pretty simple as then people will complain even more.i want deadeyes to use endurance over ini for stealth because endurance is a defensive resource while ini is mostly offensive. if we are less a threat offensive that might slow the fights down but that wont make it less frustrating. we are frustrating because we can simply enter stealth under pressure, how long we stay there or how is not as important for the opponent as just a little stealth is enough to get out of their reach or even ooc.if we use our endurance however for stealth (not with a dodge, but a skill to convert energy into stealth) then we are easier to pin down when we attack and we still have our ini up wich means we are more likely to attack. if i am in stealth and have stacked some, i obviously wont come out ini starved i will wait the full duration as at the end i will have my ini back. yet i might attack without a dodge ready now, betting on that i dont need one till it is up. i think deadeye is supposed to be an offensive, aggressive spec so energy for stealth over ini for stealth any day.with stealth on weapon swap, what is your opponent going to do, to get his hands on ya? i mean you open from stealth on them, wich usually already fills your malice up. then when they counter pressure just weapon swap wich as said works pretty much under any condition -> execute. dodge can at least be prevented with CC and while standing with immob.and why do you think my suggestion is not good? i mean you could intterupt then any stealth access of a deadeye , aside from maybe blinding powder that is difficult. or is it just that you want ontop of stealth your dodges to evade attacks ? :3

Being tied to endurance is not a strong argument right now, at least not in WvW where we have +90% endurance regen. This means that one dodge, 4seconds of stealth, is available just about every 5 seconds. Not much of a defensive trade-off, is it? :3

yes you can permastealth with just endurance, if you really use all of it just for stealth wich means you will have pretty much none to actually evade attacks. i think thats fine. better than perma stealth + 1 dodge every 5 seconds to cover your reveal time that ends with an nearly uncounterable stealth access.

edit: being able to dodge 1 every 5 seconds or actually more due to sigils/runes is an overall issue in WvW that should be dealt with if seen as such seperately.

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

We shouldn't base balance on the play style of one player. Limiting the ability to

stack

stealth outside of initiative use would alleviate a large portion of frustrations that people have when playing against us. If you wouldn't notice this change much on your play style, then why try to dissuade the suggestion? :3

pretty simple as then people will complain even more.i want deadeyes to use endurance over ini for stealth because endurance is a defensive resource while ini is mostly offensive. if we are less a threat offensive that might slow the fights down but that wont make it less frustrating. we are frustrating because we can simply enter stealth under pressure, how long we stay there or how is not as important for the opponent as just a little stealth is enough to get out of their reach or even ooc.if we use our endurance however for stealth (not with a dodge, but a skill to convert energy into stealth) then we are easier to pin down when we attack and we still have our ini up wich means we are more likely to attack. if i am in stealth and have stacked some, i obviously wont come out ini starved i will wait the full duration as at the end i will have my ini back. yet i might attack without a dodge ready now, betting on that i dont need one till it is up. i think deadeye is supposed to be an offensive, aggressive spec so energy for stealth over ini for stealth any day.with stealth on weapon swap, what is your opponent going to do, to get his hands on ya? i mean you open from stealth on them, wich usually already fills your malice up. then when they counter pressure just weapon swap wich as said works pretty much under any condition -> execute. dodge can at least be prevented with CC and while standing with immob.and why do you think my suggestion is not good? i mean you could intterupt then any stealth access of a deadeye , aside from maybe blinding powder that is difficult. or is it just that you want ontop of stealth your dodges to evade attacks ? :3

Being tied to endurance is not a strong argument right now, at least not in WvW where we have +90% endurance regen. This means that one dodge, 4seconds of stealth, is available just about every 5 seconds. Not much of a defensive trade-off, is it? :3

yes you can permastealth with just endurance, if you really use all of it just for stealth wich means you will have pretty much none to actually evade attacks. i think thats fine. better than perma stealth + 1 dodge every 5 seconds to cover your reveal time that ends with an nearly uncounterable stealth access

It already is nearly uncounterable stealth access, though. That is why I suggested a change to how stealth is gained. Immobilize isn't much of a counter since we have withdraw, which is uninterruptible on its own. I know my suggestion isn't the best, but our frequent access to stealth without needing to use any offensive resource is a huge problem. If you dodge, then attack right as stealth is running out, then you only net lost 10 endurance, which is recovered in the time you are spending attacking. So really, there is no tradeoff...

IMO an ideal balance patch would change the %damage increase on Malicious Backstab (maybe bleeding and cripple?) and rework Silent Scope to move the stealth elsewhere. Perhaps Death's Retreat?

[Turk.5460]

My other suggestion besides nerfing/reworking Silent Scope was to remove energy sigils and endurance regen food. But the tears from Warriors, Mesmers, and Holosmith's would drown the servers. It doesn't help that energy sigils are exploited by equipping/unequipping siege.

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

We shouldn't base balance on the play style of one player. Limiting the ability to

stack

stealth outside of initiative use would alleviate a large portion of frustrations that people have when playing against us. If you wouldn't notice this change much on your play style, then why try to dissuade the suggestion? :3

pretty simple as then people will complain even more.i want deadeyes to use endurance over ini for stealth because endurance is a defensive resource while ini is mostly offensive. if we are less a threat offensive that might slow the fights down but that wont make it less frustrating. we are frustrating because we can simply enter stealth under pressure, how long we stay there or how is not as important for the opponent as just a little stealth is enough to get out of their reach or even ooc.if we use our endurance however for stealth (not with a dodge, but a skill to convert energy into stealth) then we are easier to pin down when we attack and we still have our ini up wich means we are more likely to attack. if i am in stealth and have stacked some, i obviously wont come out ini starved i will wait the full duration as at the end i will have my ini back. yet i might attack without a dodge ready now, betting on that i dont need one till it is up. i think deadeye is supposed to be an offensive, aggressive spec so energy for stealth over ini for stealth any day.with stealth on weapon swap, what is your opponent going to do, to get his hands on ya? i mean you open from stealth on them, wich usually already fills your malice up. then when they counter pressure just weapon swap wich as said works pretty much under any condition -> execute. dodge can at least be prevented with CC and while standing with immob.and why do you think my suggestion is not good? i mean you could intterupt then any stealth access of a deadeye , aside from maybe blinding powder that is difficult. or is it just that you want ontop of stealth your dodges to evade attacks ? :3

Being tied to endurance is not a strong argument right now, at least not in WvW where we have +90% endurance regen. This means that one dodge, 4seconds of stealth, is available just about every 5 seconds. Not much of a defensive trade-off, is it? :3

yes you can permastealth with just endurance, if you really use all of it just for stealth wich means you will have pretty much none to actually evade attacks. i think thats fine. better than perma stealth + 1 dodge every 5 seconds to cover your reveal time that ends with an nearly uncounterable stealth access

It already

is

nearly uncounterable stealth access, though. That is why I suggested a change to how stealth is gained. Immobilize isn't much of a counter since we have withdraw, which is uninterruptible on its own. I know my suggestion isn't the best, but our frequent access to stealth without needing to use any offensive resource is a huge problem.

IMO an ideal balance patch would change the %damage increase on Malicious Backstab (maybe bleeding and cripple?) and rework Silent Scope to move the stealth elsewhere. Perhaps Death's Retreat?

i know it IS already nearly uncounterable tho more than your suggestion and with my suggestion you could even interrupt it!without the damage on malicious backstab i dont think i would use it unless i need it for stealth. but as said earlier in other threads i would like malicious backstab to have a tell tied to it preferably visual + audio so you can react to it like to DJ but to then give a reason to use it over DJ, maybe making malicious backstab easier to use like a little inbuild gap closer, because as DE we lack steal and like 99% of the cases i see core/DD use backstab thats with steal, sometimes with another teleport but rarely walking up.

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

We shouldn't base balance on the play style of one player. Limiting the ability to

stack

stealth outside of initiative use would alleviate a large portion of frustrations that people have when playing against us. If you wouldn't notice this change much on your play style, then why try to dissuade the suggestion? :3

pretty simple as then people will complain even more.i want deadeyes to use endurance over ini for stealth because endurance is a defensive resource while ini is mostly offensive. if we are less a threat offensive that might slow the fights down but that wont make it less frustrating. we are frustrating because we can simply enter stealth under pressure, how long we stay there or how is not as important for the opponent as just a little stealth is enough to get out of their reach or even ooc.if we use our endurance however for stealth (not with a dodge, but a skill to convert energy into stealth) then we are easier to pin down when we attack and we still have our ini up wich means we are more likely to attack. if i am in stealth and have stacked some, i obviously wont come out ini starved i will wait the full duration as at the end i will have my ini back. yet i might attack without a dodge ready now, betting on that i dont need one till it is up. i think deadeye is supposed to be an offensive, aggressive spec so energy for stealth over ini for stealth any day.with stealth on weapon swap, what is your opponent going to do, to get his hands on ya? i mean you open from stealth on them, wich usually already fills your malice up. then when they counter pressure just weapon swap wich as said works pretty much under any condition -> execute. dodge can at least be prevented with CC and while standing with immob.and why do you think my suggestion is not good? i mean you could intterupt then any stealth access of a deadeye , aside from maybe blinding powder that is difficult. or is it just that you want ontop of stealth your dodges to evade attacks ? :3

Being tied to endurance is not a strong argument right now, at least not in WvW where we have +90% endurance regen. This means that one dodge, 4seconds of stealth, is available just about every 5 seconds. Not much of a defensive trade-off, is it? :3

yes you can permastealth with just endurance, if you really use all of it just for stealth wich means you will have pretty much none to actually evade attacks. i think thats fine. better than perma stealth + 1 dodge every 5 seconds to cover your reveal time that ends with an nearly uncounterable stealth access

It already

is

nearly uncounterable stealth access, though. That is why I suggested a change to how stealth is gained. Immobilize isn't much of a counter since we have withdraw, which is uninterruptible on its own. I know my suggestion isn't the best, but our frequent access to stealth without needing to use any offensive resource is a huge problem.

IMO an ideal balance patch would change the %damage increase on Malicious Backstab (maybe bleeding and cripple?) and rework Silent Scope to move the stealth elsewhere. Perhaps Death's Retreat?

i know it IS already nearly uncounterable tho more than your suggestion and with my suggestion you could even interrupt it!without the damage on malicious backstab i dont think i would use it unless i need it for stealth. but as said earlier in other threads i would like malicious backstab to have a tell tied to it preferably visual + audio so you can react to it like to DJ but to then give a reason to use it over DJ maybe, maybe malicious backstab easier to use like a little inbuild gap closer, because as DE we lack steal and like 99% of the cases i see core/DD use backstab thats with steal, sometimes with another teleport but rarely walking up.

Even if it were changed to weapon swap and truly be uninterruptable, I wouldn't have the duration changed. Meaning it would still overall be less stacking of stealth due to the 10s cooldown on weapon swaps. Which would force us to use other means to maintain stealth - this would be healthy for competitive game modes.

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

We shouldn't base balance on the play style of one player. Limiting the ability to

stack

stealth outside of initiative use would alleviate a large portion of frustrations that people have when playing against us. If you wouldn't notice this change much on your play style, then why try to dissuade the suggestion? :3

pretty simple as then people will complain even more.i want deadeyes to use endurance over ini for stealth because endurance is a defensive resource while ini is mostly offensive. if we are less a threat offensive that might slow the fights down but that wont make it less frustrating. we are frustrating because we can simply enter stealth under pressure, how long we stay there or how is not as important for the opponent as just a little stealth is enough to get out of their reach or even ooc.if we use our endurance however for stealth (not with a dodge, but a skill to convert energy into stealth) then we are easier to pin down when we attack and we still have our ini up wich means we are more likely to attack. if i am in stealth and have stacked some, i obviously wont come out ini starved i will wait the full duration as at the end i will have my ini back. yet i might attack without a dodge ready now, betting on that i dont need one till it is up. i think deadeye is supposed to be an offensive, aggressive spec so energy for stealth over ini for stealth any day.with stealth on weapon swap, what is your opponent going to do, to get his hands on ya? i mean you open from stealth on them, wich usually already fills your malice up. then when they counter pressure just weapon swap wich as said works pretty much under any condition -> execute. dodge can at least be prevented with CC and while standing with immob.and why do you think my suggestion is not good? i mean you could intterupt then any stealth access of a deadeye , aside from maybe blinding powder that is difficult. or is it just that you want ontop of stealth your dodges to evade attacks ? :3

Being tied to endurance is not a strong argument right now, at least not in WvW where we have +90% endurance regen. This means that one dodge, 4seconds of stealth, is available just about every 5 seconds. Not much of a defensive trade-off, is it? :3

yes you can permastealth with just endurance, if you really use all of it just for stealth wich means you will have pretty much none to actually evade attacks. i think thats fine. better than perma stealth + 1 dodge every 5 seconds to cover your reveal time that ends with an nearly uncounterable stealth access

It already

is

nearly uncounterable stealth access, though. That is why I suggested a change to how stealth is gained. Immobilize isn't much of a counter since we have withdraw, which is uninterruptible on its own. I know my suggestion isn't the best, but our frequent access to stealth without needing to use any offensive resource is a huge problem.

IMO an ideal balance patch would change the %damage increase on Malicious Backstab (maybe bleeding and cripple?) and rework Silent Scope to move the stealth elsewhere. Perhaps Death's Retreat?

i know it IS already nearly uncounterable tho more than your suggestion and with my suggestion you could even interrupt it!without the damage on malicious backstab i dont think i would use it unless i need it for stealth. but as said earlier in other threads i would like malicious backstab to have a tell tied to it preferably visual + audio so you can react to it like to DJ but to then give a reason to use it over DJ maybe, maybe malicious backstab easier to use like a little inbuild gap closer, because as DE we lack steal and like 99% of the cases i see core/DD use backstab thats with steal, sometimes with another teleport but rarely walking up.

Even if it were changed to weapon swap and truly be uninterruptable, I wouldn't have the duration changed. Meaning it would still overall be less stacking of stealth due to the 10s cooldown on weapon swaps.

i know less stacking from that source. but is stacking truely the issue people have with deadeye? them being long stealthed by that? as said there is soo many sources of stealth, you could even delete that trait and i could permastealth. what people have an issue with IMO is a frequent uninterruptable stealth access. before the rework DE was more or less seen as only a threat to noobs and we already had as easy permastealth. but we only had one uninterruptable stealth access in blinding powder. they could keep us visible with pressure, that is what i think currently lacks and you want to buff that. i mean i can totally screw up and i know once i manage to get in stealth the rest is easy, just a few seconds are enough and your change would take a time to get used to but it would certainly be a huge buff to my deadeye one that people will complain about ALOT.

there is IMO only one place where using endurance only stealth stacking is currently an issue and that is hiding in keeps, because that way you leave 0 tells visually and audio for your opponent. you can stealth by other means without visual tell but hiding audio is the actuall issue. for that the skill i mentioned earlier to convert endurance into stealth could make a sound based on its name etc. if it actually is something like i said 'hold your breath' then one could hear a sound of breathing in.

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

We shouldn't base balance on the play style of one player. Limiting the ability to

stack

stealth outside of initiative use would alleviate a large portion of frustrations that people have when playing against us. If you wouldn't notice this change much on your play style, then why try to dissuade the suggestion? :3

pretty simple as then people will complain even more.i want deadeyes to use endurance over ini for stealth because endurance is a defensive resource while ini is mostly offensive. if we are less a threat offensive that might slow the fights down but that wont make it less frustrating. we are frustrating because we can simply enter stealth under pressure, how long we stay there or how is not as important for the opponent as just a little stealth is enough to get out of their reach or even ooc.if we use our endurance however for stealth (not with a dodge, but a skill to convert energy into stealth) then we are easier to pin down when we attack and we still have our ini up wich means we are more likely to attack. if i am in stealth and have stacked some, i obviously wont come out ini starved i will wait the full duration as at the end i will have my ini back. yet i might attack without a dodge ready now, betting on that i dont need one till it is up. i think deadeye is supposed to be an offensive, aggressive spec so energy for stealth over ini for stealth any day.with stealth on weapon swap, what is your opponent going to do, to get his hands on ya? i mean you open from stealth on them, wich usually already fills your malice up. then when they counter pressure just weapon swap wich as said works pretty much under any condition -> execute. dodge can at least be prevented with CC and while standing with immob.and why do you think my suggestion is not good? i mean you could intterupt then any stealth access of a deadeye , aside from maybe blinding powder that is difficult. or is it just that you want ontop of stealth your dodges to evade attacks ? :3

Being tied to endurance is not a strong argument right now, at least not in WvW where we have +90% endurance regen. This means that one dodge, 4seconds of stealth, is available just about every 5 seconds. Not much of a defensive trade-off, is it? :3

yes you can permastealth with just endurance, if you really use all of it just for stealth wich means you will have pretty much none to actually evade attacks. i think thats fine. better than perma stealth + 1 dodge every 5 seconds to cover your reveal time that ends with an nearly uncounterable stealth access

It already

is

nearly uncounterable stealth access, though. That is why I suggested a change to how stealth is gained. Immobilize isn't much of a counter since we have withdraw, which is uninterruptible on its own. I know my suggestion isn't the best, but our frequent access to stealth without needing to use any offensive resource is a huge problem.

IMO an ideal balance patch would change the %damage increase on Malicious Backstab (maybe bleeding and cripple?) and rework Silent Scope to move the stealth elsewhere. Perhaps Death's Retreat?

i know it IS already nearly uncounterable tho more than your suggestion and with my suggestion you could even interrupt it!without the damage on malicious backstab i dont think i would use it unless i need it for stealth. but as said earlier in other threads i would like malicious backstab to have a tell tied to it preferably visual + audio so you can react to it like to DJ but to then give a reason to use it over DJ maybe, maybe malicious backstab easier to use like a little inbuild gap closer, because as DE we lack steal and like 99% of the cases i see core/DD use backstab thats with steal, sometimes with another teleport but rarely walking up.

Even if it were changed to weapon swap and truly be uninterruptable, I wouldn't have the duration changed. Meaning it would still overall be less stacking of stealth due to the 10s cooldown on weapon swaps.

i know less stacking from that source. but is stacking truely the issue people have with deadeye? them being long stealthed by that? as said there is soo many sources of stealth, you could even delete that trait and i could permastealth. what people have an issue with IMO is a frequent uninterruptable stealth access. before the rework DE was more or less seen as only a threat to noobs and we already had as easy permastealth. but we only had one uninterruptable stealth access in blinding powder. they could keep us visible with pressure, that is what i think currently lacks and you want to buff that. i mean i can totally screw up and i know once i manage to get in stealth the rest is easy, just a few seconds are enough and your change would take a time to get used to but it would certainly be a huge buff to my deadeye one that people will complain about ALOT.

Yes. Stacking and frequency of stealth application - specifically uninterruptable - is the biggest issue I hear about. If you delete that trait and you permastealth, then one can stand in your smoke field and counter your permastealth, because you certainly aren't going to get 3 leaps through BP or 4 leaps through SC if an enemy is strafing back and forth in your smoke field. On top of that, you're now going to be low on initiative if you wanted to attack, which is a fair trade-off. And i guarantee you would not have a better time with a 10s cooldown on Sniper's Cover. Because if it really was a huge buff to your DE, then you would already be playing that way. Meaning it wouldn't actually be a buff, now would it? Life for you would continue as usual soo... :3

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:If anything needs changing it's stealth on dodge. Deal with that and everything else just sorts itself out.

I agree, and I think the trait should be changed to

stealth on weapon swap

- with a 8s cooldown to give incentive to use Runes of the Warrior perhaps? With things like Energy Sigil and Energy Regen Food coupled with SA meld with shadows, stealth on dodge creates extremely non-interactive gameplay. (though I'm all for removing energy sigil and endurance regen food anyway).

putting it on a cooldown system.. we had that already can be done but why would you put it on weapon swap? i mean with the ini system the weapon swap for thief is devalued, putting the stealth here will just kick it out of use for most parts because people wont swap just for the stealth, that would be super clunky.tho hey weapon swap at least works while CCed :3

I don't think it should be as accessible as it is right now as

uninterruptible

stealth access. At least with smoke fields and leaps there are windows of opportunity to:A.) Interrupt the smoke fieldB.) Interrupt the leapC.) Stand in the smoke field and either deny further stacks (or at least deny 1 or 2 depending on how fast the DE can re position) or get the DE to reveal himself.

The current ease of stealth access is far overtuned and can stand to be shaved, perma stealth backstab was fun to play for a while, now it's just boring and non-engaging - this was especially true after I made a build with all Valkyrie and Hidden Killer. I only swap to it now when I encounter those super insecure condi or hybrid Mirages who also trait reflect on dodge, or when there are no 1v1's to be found anywhere on any BL.but weaponswap is like one of the least denyable things in the game so its even stronger than on dodge. and i think it costing endurance is good, but the way endurance is spent for stealth doesnt have to be a dodge that is uninterruptable. thats why i made the above suggestion :3

Weaponswap can't be spammed

spamming is only usefull for stacking. but the only importan uninterruptable stealth is the one on entering stealth. after that it doesnt matter and we got enough sources then.with weapon swap basically however you engage the deadeye he can stealth anyway. and i personally dont need to restealth more than 1 against most in a 1 vs 1 if at all.

We shouldn't base balance on the play style of one player. Limiting the ability to

stack

stealth outside of initiative use would alleviate a large portion of frustrations that people have when playing against us. If you wouldn't notice this change much on your play style, then why try to dissuade the suggestion? :3

pretty simple as then people will complain even more.i want deadeyes to use endurance over ini for stealth because endurance is a defensive resource while ini is mostly offensive. if we are less a threat offensive that might slow the fights down but that wont make it less frustrating. we are frustrating because we can simply enter stealth under pressure, how long we stay there or how is not as important for the opponent as just a little stealth is enough to get out of their reach or even ooc.if we use our endurance however for stealth (not with a dodge, but a skill to convert energy into stealth) then we are easier to pin down when we attack and we still have our ini up wich means we are more likely to attack. if i am in stealth and have stacked some, i obviously wont come out ini starved i will wait the full duration as at the end i will have my ini back. yet i might attack without a dodge ready now, betting on that i dont need one till it is up. i think deadeye is supposed to be an offensive, aggressive spec so energy for stealth over ini for stealth any day.with stealth on weapon swap, what is your opponent going to do, to get his hands on ya? i mean you open from stealth on them, wich usually already fills your malice up. then when they counter pressure just weapon swap wich as said works pretty much under any condition -> execute. dodge can at least be prevented with CC and while standing with immob.and why do you think my suggestion is not good? i mean you could intterupt then any stealth access of a deadeye , aside from maybe blinding powder that is difficult. or is it just that you want ontop of stealth your dodges to evade attacks ? :3

Being tied to endurance is not a strong argument right now, at least not in WvW where we have +90% endurance regen. This means that one dodge, 4seconds of stealth, is available just about every 5 seconds. Not much of a defensive trade-off, is it? :3

yes you can permastealth with just endurance, if you really use all of it just for stealth wich means you will have pretty much none to actually evade attacks. i think thats fine. better than perma stealth + 1 dodge every 5 seconds to cover your reveal time that ends with an nearly uncounterable stealth access

It already

is

nearly uncounterable stealth access, though. That is why I suggested a change to how stealth is gained. Immobilize isn't much of a counter since we have withdraw, which is uninterruptible on its own. I know my suggestion isn't the best, but our frequent access to stealth without needing to use any offensive resource is a huge problem.

IMO an ideal balance patch would change the %damage increase on Malicious Backstab (maybe bleeding and cripple?) and rework Silent Scope to move the stealth elsewhere. Perhaps Death's Retreat?

i know it IS already nearly uncounterable tho more than your suggestion and with my suggestion you could even interrupt it!without the damage on malicious backstab i dont think i would use it unless i need it for stealth. but as said earlier in other threads i would like malicious backstab to have a tell tied to it preferably visual + audio so you can react to it like to DJ but to then give a reason to use it over DJ maybe, maybe malicious backstab easier to use like a little inbuild gap closer, because as DE we lack steal and like 99% of the cases i see core/DD use backstab thats with steal, sometimes with another teleport but rarely walking up.

Even if it were changed to weapon swap and truly be uninterruptable, I wouldn't have the duration changed. Meaning it would still overall be less stacking of stealth due to the 10s cooldown on weapon swaps.

i know less stacking from that source. but is stacking truely the issue people have with deadeye? them being long stealthed by that? as said there is soo many sources of stealth, you could even delete that trait and i could permastealth. what people have an issue with IMO is a frequent uninterruptable stealth access. before the rework DE was more or less seen as only a threat to noobs and we already had as easy permastealth. but we only had one uninterruptable stealth access in blinding powder. they could keep us visible with pressure, that is what i think currently lacks and you want to buff that. i mean i can totally screw up and i know once i manage to get in stealth the rest is easy, just a few seconds are enough and your change would take a time to get used to but it would certainly be a huge buff to my deadeye one that people will complain about ALOT.

Yes. Stacking and frequency of stealth application - specifically uninterruptable - is the biggest issue I hear about. If you delete that trait and you permastealth, then one can stand in your smoke field and counter your permastealth, because you certainly aren't going to get 3 leaps through BP or 4 leaps through SC if an enemy is strafing back and forth in your smoke field. On top of that, you're now going to be low on initiative if you wanted to attack, which is a fair trade-off. And i guarantee you would not have a better time with a 10s cooldown on Sniper's Cover. Because if it really

was

a huge buff to your DE, then you would

already

be playing that way. Meaning it wouldn't actually be a buff, now would it? Life for you would continue as usual soo... :3

what do you mean i would play that way? i actually stealth alot with combo. but i think the most crucial part about stealthing is entering stealth. thats the only reason i had blinding powder with me pre rework as it is uninterruptable, after that is easy.frequent uninteruptable stealth access is the issue, yet for access 10s is not much considering you then spent at least 4s in stealth and its not like they could more frequently interrupt / CC you on range so you can else just use a utility/stolen skill etc.yes people can just by walking in get you out of stealth when you stack with heartseeker, but i mean in most cases just invisible opponents can do that if you see them, you wont plant it infront of their feet. and i am not sure in what instance people need an option to get you out of stealth if you intent to stay there longer? because in no competitive mode can you achieve anything while remaining in stealth.if a deadeye on stealth is the only thief form that cant pick his fights ( thats basically what no stacking would do), then it will be inferior in any competitive mode, because that is the quality that give the thief a reason to be picked. take that away from the deadeye and hes complete trash. but giving more options to counterplay and actually catch a deadeye that engaged in a fight with you, that surely is needed. for that we need to remove frequent uninterruptable stealth access. with my suggestion the only uninterruptable one would be on 32-40s cd, wich is then enough time for the target to recover or if the thief decides to engage again with it on cd to kill the thief. within 10s your target wont be ready.you put the focus on the stacking, reducing that in worst cast will make a deadeye instead of stacking stealth use a little and just run with that stealth and get away like they do with pretty much any other thief build => not much changed for the target. i put the focus on stealth entering because if that is weakend, then we have better options to counterplay and actually kill the thief - that is what people complain about. i played all day today and died 3 times in highly outnumbered fights because i got too greedy, yet got tons of kills while outnumbered and those deaths could also have been avoided on my part, nothing my opponents could have done. if they can counterplay my stealth access most of the cases, then i would die more frequent. still wouldnt be fun to fight me i guess but at least they got a chance to kill me without me failing terribly. your suggestion would have prevented all 3 of those deaths, as all was when i used my shadowstep for stomping and then continued fighting without a stunbreak to get CCedd to death. with your suggestion that would not have been an issue for me

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:but giving more options to counterplay and actually catch a deadeye that engaged in a fight with you, that surely is needed. for that we need to remove frequent uninterruptable stealth access.

This is literally what I have been saying from the beginning, and also that my suggestion was not set in stone, as I said it wasn't a great solution, merely a placeholder for something better.

@MUDse.7623 said:with my suggestion the only uninterruptable one would be on 32-40s cd, wich is then enough time for the target to recover or if the thief decides to engage again with it on cd to kill the thief. within 10s your target wont be ready.

I must have missed that, what did you suggest?

@MUDse.7623 said:you put the focus on the stacking

No, I put the focus on uninterruptable access to stealth. We only swapped to talking about stealth stacking because you seemed surprised to hear that it was a problem. You started to put the focus into other areas and then came back and claimed that my focus was yours the whole time? Don't be that guy.

Let me ask you this outright:Do you think DE is overtuned right now?If yes, what areas need to be looked at besides Malicious Backstab?

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:but giving more options to counterplay and actually catch a deadeye that engaged in a fight with you, that surely is needed. for that we need to remove frequent uninterruptable stealth access.

This is literally what I have been saying from the beginning, and also that my suggestion was not set in stone, as I said it wasn't a great solution, merely a placeholder for something better.

@MUDse.7623 said:with my suggestion the only uninterruptable one would be on 32-40s cd, wich is then enough time for the target to recover or if the thief decides to engage again with it on cd to kill the thief. within 10s your target wont be ready.

I must have missed that, what did you suggest?

@MUDse.7623 said:you put the focus on the stacking

No, I put the focus on uninterruptable access to stealth. We only swapped to talking about stealth stacking because you seemed surprised to hear that it was a problem. You started to put the focus into other areas and then came back and claimed that my focus was yours the whole time? Don't be that guy.

i said instead of the stealth on that trait(dunno might change that trait to something completely differnt for all i care) give us an f3 that uses 50 endurance for 3s stealth, with a cast time of id say 1/4s, debateable if maybe 1/2 and as said above a deadeye voiceline so enemies might know your around like with kneel and mark.this would cause several changes to the current form:

• you have to decide if you use endurance for stealth or for an evade (if i wasnt valk i sometimes wouldnt want to stealth to not get revealed so i can avoid an attack, fill the last malice and then stealth instead of stealthing early and having to wait for either stealth or reveal to wear off)
• you stealth faster than current on dodge wich makes it better for offence
• you dont move like with dodge now so you can use it on edges/pillars etc
• when you currently leave stealth and are revealed 3s then you can dodge after ~2s and end in stealth, with the change you would be vulnerable for all the 3s.(+50% buff for our opponents)

as for your last part, your suggestion counteracts more the stealth stacking than the uninterruptable access to stealth, thats what i meant.

edit: -with this suggestion- as a replacement for stealth on silent scope one could split the m7 trait as IMO it is a little overloaded and get the ini refund (5 without m7 and 7 with m7) to the crit chance on silent scope and keep the buffs + 2 extra malice in grandmaster, that way users of BQoBK wouldnt be 'forced' to pick trickery and/or mercy for ini.

[Turk.5460]

Thanks for clarifying. Our end goal is clearly the same - reduce uninterruptable stealth access. Yours is a good suggestion, but it seems to lack a cooldown. Given that with SA that would give you 4s of stealth, I think a cooldown of 10s would be fair.

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:Thanks for clarifying. Our end goal is clearly the same - reduce uninterruptable stealth access. Yours is a good suggestion, but it seems to lack a cooldown. Given that with SA that would give you 4s of stealth, I think a cooldown of 10s would be fair.

sure one could put a cooldown on it, but i think that would again encourage people to use ini for stealth stacking, wich allways works and results in a very defensive play(endurance not used for stealth doesnt mean you dont have that endurance gain :3, but you cant use it offensively for a stealth attack then). yet deadeye should be offensive. but well thats just my opinion, because i know if i want to stealth i will stealth regardless and i dont see stealth stacking overall as such an issue (because it is countered by like every mode itself, when too exessive), for what ever reason you dont want see endurance enough of a cost for it. stealth stacking is just a tool to pick fights, same as mobility. yet people see someone stealthing as a greater issue than someone running away. even in keeps and towers people guard it for hours if they know i am in, sometimes i can then just jump out with them seeing it, come back 2 min later build a cata and noone bothers. its not more powerful or whatever its just in peoples mind something.

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Thanks for clarifying. Our end goal is clearly the same - reduce uninterruptable stealth access. Yours is a good suggestion, but it seems to lack a cooldown. Given that with SA that would give you 4s of stealth, I think a cooldown of 10s would be fair.

sure one could put a cooldown on it, but i think that would again encourage people to use ini for stealth stacking, wich allways works and results in a very defensive play(endurance not used for stealth doesnt mean you dont have that endurance gain :3, but you cant use it offensively for a stealth attack then). yet deadeye should be offensive. but well thats just my opinion, because i know if i want to stealth i will stealth regardless and i dont see stealth stacking overall as such an issue, for what ever reason you dont want see endurance enough of a cost for it.

That goes back to what I said earlier though, 50 endurance is nothing in WvW when the stealth itself is 4s long. Without a cooldown your change merely puts a cast time on it. That's great and all, and would help a little bit, but would not change much on the frequency of near-free stealth access. The biggest cries of frustration in WvW vs. DE is how DE can attack, then disappear for a few seconds, then attack, disappear for a few seconds. Pretty much indefinitely, leaving less of a window of opportunity to attack than Mirages. Adding a cast time is not enough counter-play for the current iteration of DE.

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Thanks for clarifying. Our end goal is clearly the same - reduce uninterruptable stealth access. Yours is a good suggestion, but it seems to lack a cooldown. Given that with SA that would give you 4s of stealth, I think a cooldown of 10s would be fair.

sure one could put a cooldown on it, but i think that would again encourage people to use ini for stealth stacking, wich allways works and results in a very defensive play(endurance not used for stealth doesnt mean you dont have that endurance gain :3, but you cant use it offensively for a stealth attack then). yet deadeye should be offensive. but well thats just my opinion, because i know if i want to stealth i will stealth regardless and i dont see stealth stacking overall as such an issue, for what ever reason you dont want see endurance enough of a cost for it.

That goes back to what I said earlier though, 50 endurance is nothing in WvW when the stealth itself is 4s long. Without a cooldown your change merely puts a cast time on it. That's great and all, and would help a little bit, but would not change much on the frequency of near-free stealth access. The biggest cries of frustration in WvW vs. DE is how DE can attack, then disappear for a few seconds, then attack, disappear for a few seconds. Pretty much indefinitely, leaving less of a window of opportunity to attack than Mirages. Adding a cast time is not enough counter-play for the current iteration of DE.

well the window as said above would already be 50% bigger at least cause no more evade into stealth and again just because you dont use it for stealth, doesnt mean you dont have that extra endurance still ready for dodges. do you personally really attack , stealth, attack , stealth etc. more frequently than 1 every 10 seconds? i know i dont weave that fast because why would i? lets say i attack , 3 s reveal, stealth 4s, attack at the end, reveal 3s and then its just 3 more seconds till its ready again now that is if i didnt extend it. and i could just evade for that extra time pretty much if i still invest as much into endurance wich will make my opponent waste more cooldowns and then the rage will not be : ' deadeyes permastealth' but ' permastealth + permaevade'. endurance gain itself indeed can be considered an issue in WvW , but that is for all professions.IMO 50 endurance is not a low cost for 3s stealth ( remember spvp has lowe endurance gain and most run there without SA) and doesnt warrant a further cooldown.did you play deadeye alot before the rework? it was pretty risky to use kneel to enter stealth against a half decent opponent because it had a casttime.