Thief Doesn't needs BUFFS

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Thanks for clarifying. Our end goal is clearly the same - reduce uninterruptable stealth access. Yours is a good suggestion, but it seems to lack a cooldown. Given that with SA that would give you 4s of stealth, I think a cooldown of 10s would be fair.

sure one could put a cooldown on it, but i think that would again encourage people to use ini for stealth stacking, wich allways works and results in a very defensive play(endurance not used for stealth doesnt mean you dont have that endurance gain :3, but you cant use it offensively for a stealth attack then). yet deadeye should be offensive. but well thats just my opinion, because i know if i want to stealth i will stealth regardless and i dont see stealth stacking overall as such an issue, for what ever reason you dont want see endurance enough of a cost for it.

That goes back to what I said earlier though, 50 endurance is nothing in WvW when the stealth itself is 4s long. Without a cooldown your change merely puts a cast time on it. That's great and all, and would help a little bit, but would not change much on the frequency of near-free stealth access. The biggest cries of frustration in WvW vs. DE is how DE can attack, then disappear for a few seconds, then attack, disappear for a few seconds. Pretty much indefinitely, leaving less of a window of opportunity to attack than Mirages. Adding a cast time is not enough counter-play for the current iteration of DE.

well the window as said above would already be 50% bigger at least cause no more evade into stealth and again just because you dont use it for stealth, doesnt mean you dont have that extra endurance still ready for dodges. do you personally really attack , stealth, attack , stealth etc. more frequently than 1 every 10 seconds? i know i dont weave that fast because why would i? lets say i attack , 3 s reveal, stealth 4s, attack at the end, reveal 3s and then its just 3 more seconds till its ready again now that is if i didnt extend it. and i could just evade for that extra time pretty much if i still invest as much into endurance wich will make my opponent waste more cooldowns and then the rage will not be : ' deadeyes permastealth' but ' permastealth + permaevade'.

endurance gain itself indeed can be considered an issue

in WvW

, but that is for all professions.

IMO 50 endurance is not a low cost for 3s stealth ( remember spvp has lowe endurance gain and most run there without SA) and doesnt warrant a further cooldown.did you play deadeye alot before the rework? it was pretty risky to use kneel to enter stealth against a half decent opponent because it had a casttime.

You get revealed while in Rifle? I fire Spotter's Shot then TRB as stealth is ending if I want to play it safe. Only time I get reveal is if I use Death's Judgement (or backstab, but that's only for trying to 1hit), which isn't really all that frequent. I'll absolutely stealth more frequently than once every 10 seconds, especially against anyone semi-competent. I'm in full Valk, Hidden Killer only lasts 2 seconds.

As for playing DE? I mained DA/Trick/DE before the re-work, Mercy/SS/RFI/SM and Sword/Pistol often used as finisher. The build is still effective, a heck of a lot more fun than SA, though without Unforgiving it's potency has suffered noticeably. I'm back to playing that build mostly now, but still swap to Valk CS/SA/DE when I encounter condi/hybrid Mirages or if I'm relaxing and want to play easy-mode.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

I'm not a big fan of any ideas making stealth or evasion debilitating to the Thief. They are the Thief's defense mechanism and they shouldn't be debilitating. This is the reason why I do not like the idea of stealth on dodge nor the idea of spending init for stealth.

F1 - Stealth, 0.25s CT, 8s CDF2 - Steal (DE: this will remain Steal but also applies Mark) - still instant castF3 - Stolen Items

All stealth from init skills (e.g. CnD) should be removed. All stealth from traits should be removed. Non-init skills that grant stealth will instead remove Revealed debuff (e.g. Blinding Powder will remove Revealed debuff instead of granting stealth). Having one skill to apply stealth will end the stealth stacking plus it would be really easy to balance.

Basically, I just took @MUDse.7623 's and @Turk.5460 's input and put them together and added a bit of my touch to come up with that. I think that would be manageable.

[bq pd.2148]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I'm not a big fan of any ideas making stealth or evasion debilitating to the Thief. They are the Thief's defense mechanism and they shouldn't be debilitating. This is the reason why I do not like the idea of stealth on dodge nor the idea of spending init for stealth.

F1 - Stealth, 0.25s CT, 8s CDF2 - Steal (DE: this will remain Steal but also applies Mark) - still instant castF3 - Stolen Items

All stealth from init skills (e.g. CnD) should be removed. All stealth from traits should be removed. Non-init skills that grant stealth will instead remove Revealed debuff (e.g. Blinding Powder will remove Revealed debuff instead of granting stealth). Having one skill to apply stealth will end the stealth stacking plus it would be really easy to balance.

Basically, I just took @MUDse.7623 's and @Turk.5460 's input and put them together and added a bit of my touch to come up with that. I think that would be manageable.

with that you remove so much stealth, that there wouldnt be any reason to pick SA. you took both and then completely removed even more stealth while saying at the beginnig stealth shouldnt be touched much as a defensive option.

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Thanks for clarifying. Our end goal is clearly the same - reduce uninterruptable stealth access. Yours is a good suggestion, but it seems to lack a cooldown. Given that with SA that would give you 4s of stealth, I think a cooldown of 10s would be fair.

sure one could put a cooldown on it, but i think that would again encourage people to use ini for stealth stacking, wich allways works and results in a very defensive play(endurance not used for stealth doesnt mean you dont have that endurance gain :3, but you cant use it offensively for a stealth attack then). yet deadeye should be offensive. but well thats just my opinion, because i know if i want to stealth i will stealth regardless and i dont see stealth stacking overall as such an issue, for what ever reason you dont want see endurance enough of a cost for it.

That goes back to what I said earlier though, 50 endurance is nothing in WvW when the stealth itself is 4s long. Without a cooldown your change merely puts a cast time on it. That's great and all, and would help a little bit, but would not change much on the frequency of near-free stealth access. The biggest cries of frustration in WvW vs. DE is how DE can attack, then disappear for a few seconds, then attack, disappear for a few seconds. Pretty much indefinitely, leaving less of a window of opportunity to attack than Mirages. Adding a cast time is not enough counter-play for the current iteration of DE.

well the window as said above would already be 50% bigger at least cause no more evade into stealth and again just because you dont use it for stealth, doesnt mean you dont have that extra endurance still ready for dodges. do you personally really attack , stealth, attack , stealth etc. more frequently than 1 every 10 seconds? i know i dont weave that fast because why would i? lets say i attack , 3 s reveal, stealth 4s, attack at the end, reveal 3s and then its just 3 more seconds till its ready again now that is if i didnt extend it. and i could just evade for that extra time pretty much if i still invest as much into endurance wich will make my opponent waste more cooldowns and then the rage will not be : ' deadeyes permastealth' but ' permastealth + permaevade'.

endurance gain itself indeed can be considered an issue

in WvW

, but that is for all professions.

IMO 50 endurance is not a low cost for 3s stealth ( remember spvp has lowe endurance gain and most run there without SA) and doesnt warrant a further cooldown.did you play deadeye alot before the rework? it was pretty risky to use kneel to enter stealth against a half decent opponent because it had a casttime.

You get revealed while in Rifle? I fire Spotter's Shot then TRB as stealth is ending if I want to play it safe. Only time I get reveal is if I use Death's Judgement (or backstab, but that's only for trying to 1hit), which isn't really all that frequent. I'll absolutely stealth more frequently than once every 10 seconds, especially against anyone semi-competent. I'm in full Valk, Hidden Killer only lasts 2 seconds.

wow! how can you be that scared in valk - i thought you better.no, not even a competent player is going to kill you in your 2 second vulnerable time currently if you engage them based on what they can throw at you. playing the way you described will just take waay too long for most opponents. with 1 more second and an interruptable stealth access, that will look way different tho.and it could still be done with 10s cooldown. then you just go stealth for 10s+ each time.outside a duell i wonder tho how you kill any half competent player, when you go that defensive about it.As for playing DE? I mained DA/Trick/DE before the re-work, Mercy/SS/RFI/SM and Sword/Pistol often used as finisher. The build is still effective, a heck of a lot more fun than SA, though without Unforgiving it's potency has suffered noticeably. I'm back to playing that build mostly now, but still swap to Valk CS/SA/DE when I encounter condi/hybrid Mirages or if I'm relaxing and want to play easy-mode.yeah see i already played mainly CS+SA before the rework, i know the difference between a frequent interruptable stealth access and stealth on dodge - its HUGE.now paying endurance with 10s cooldown for interruptable stealth is in 2 ways weaker than playing on stealth pre rework (wich was weaker than going for unfogiving btw), the one pre rework had a ammo system and you had no endurance pay. if you pay endurance i dont think a cooldown is right, either or. if you convert endurance for stealth, thats just a conversion not defense out of nowhere, you give something up for that. i want that not to have a cooldown so you can choose to give up all you dodge defense for stealth defense to set your focus there. for some reason you want thieves forced to play on evasion and mobility, because you dont like stealth, that has 0 to do with counterplay or balance just with your fun. making it interruptable is the counterplay needed for most stealth access, a cooldown is not needed as it is just a conversion of defensive resources. i just see that as you are trying to push deadeyes to a playstyle you deem fun to play against, nothing to do with balance.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Touching on what MUDse said, I'm pretty happy that this build uses CS and SA as the traitlines have seen hardly any use for years outside of PvE. It does get boring using the same traitlines for power, condi, hybrid...

And I still don't understand why unforgiving and the other master trait that made steal condis AoE were removed, so much interesting build diversity lost there.

[bq pd.2148]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Touching on what MUDse said, I'm pretty happy that this build uses CS and SA as the traitlines have seen hardly any use for years outside of PvE. It does get boring using the same traitlines for power, condi, hybrid...

And I still don't understand why unforgiving and the other master trait that made steal condis AoE were removed, so much interesting build diversity lost there.

yeah well my first interation of the post was too much of a rant tho, had to change it :3

i just wonder when he askes for that changes for overall stealth duration if he still intends CS+SA to be viable traitchoices still. because from what i read its he has more fun with DA+TR and alreadyy doesnt play CS+SA for fun but when he thinks he needs it for example against evasive condi opponents, cause SE is awesome. now adding a little more counterplay to it with interruptable stealth access is awesome, reducing the amount of stealth tho is just pushing to a complete different playstyle wich has no longer anything to do with balance but fun. i really ask myself if he intends to play CS+SA occaisonally with his proposed changes and how he pictures those fights then or if he just wants to make it a non option because he doesnt like it.

but hey 'worst case' is that it will mean back to daredevil if you want to play with stealth, that one would then be better at weaving stealth, than the elite spec with its mechanic tied to stealth attacks.

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I'm not a big fan of any ideas making stealth or evasion debilitating to the Thief. They are the Thief's defense mechanism and they shouldn't be debilitating. This is the reason why I do not like the idea of stealth on dodge nor the idea of spending init for stealth.

F1 - Stealth, 0.25s CT, 8s CDF2 - Steal (DE: this will remain Steal but also applies Mark) - still instant castF3 - Stolen Items

All stealth from init skills (e.g. CnD) should be removed. All stealth from traits should be removed. Non-init skills that grant stealth will instead remove Revealed debuff (e.g. Blinding Powder will remove Revealed debuff instead of granting stealth). Having one skill to apply stealth will end the stealth stacking plus it would be really easy to balance.

Basically, I just took @MUDse.7623 's and @Turk.5460 's input and put them together and added a bit of my touch to come up with that. I think that would be manageable.

with that you remove so much stealth, that there wouldnt be any reason to pick SA. you took both and then completely removed even more stealth while saying at the beginnig stealth shouldnt be touched much as a defensive option.

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Thanks for clarifying. Our end goal is clearly the same - reduce uninterruptable stealth access. Yours is a good suggestion, but it seems to lack a cooldown. Given that with SA that would give you 4s of stealth, I think a cooldown of 10s would be fair.

sure one could put a cooldown on it, but i think that would again encourage people to use ini for stealth stacking, wich allways works and results in a very defensive play(endurance not used for stealth doesnt mean you dont have that endurance gain :3, but you cant use it offensively for a stealth attack then). yet deadeye should be offensive. but well thats just my opinion, because i know if i want to stealth i will stealth regardless and i dont see stealth stacking overall as such an issue, for what ever reason you dont want see endurance enough of a cost for it.

That goes back to what I said earlier though, 50 endurance is nothing in WvW when the stealth itself is 4s long. Without a cooldown your change merely puts a cast time on it. That's great and all, and would help a little bit, but would not change much on the frequency of near-free stealth access. The biggest cries of frustration in WvW vs. DE is how DE can attack, then disappear for a few seconds, then attack, disappear for a few seconds. Pretty much indefinitely, leaving less of a window of opportunity to attack than Mirages. Adding a cast time is not enough counter-play for the current iteration of DE.

well the window as said above would already be 50% bigger at least cause no more evade into stealth and again just because you dont use it for stealth, doesnt mean you dont have that extra endurance still ready for dodges. do you personally really attack , stealth, attack , stealth etc. more frequently than 1 every 10 seconds? i know i dont weave that fast because why would i? lets say i attack , 3 s reveal, stealth 4s, attack at the end, reveal 3s and then its just 3 more seconds till its ready again now that is if i didnt extend it. and i could just evade for that extra time pretty much if i still invest as much into endurance wich will make my opponent waste more cooldowns and then the rage will not be : ' deadeyes permastealth' but ' permastealth + permaevade'.

endurance gain itself indeed can be considered an issue

in WvW

, but that is for all professions.

IMO 50 endurance is not a low cost for 3s stealth ( remember spvp has lowe endurance gain and most run there without SA) and doesnt warrant a further cooldown.did you play deadeye alot before the rework? it was pretty risky to use kneel to enter stealth against a half decent opponent because it had a casttime.

You get revealed while in Rifle? I fire Spotter's Shot then TRB as stealth is ending if I want to play it safe. Only time I get reveal is if I use Death's Judgement (or backstab, but that's only for trying to 1hit), which isn't really all that frequent. I'll absolutely stealth more frequently than once every 10 seconds, especially against anyone semi-competent. I'm in full Valk, Hidden Killer only lasts 2 seconds.

wow! how can you be that scared in valk - i thought you better.no, not even a competent player is going to kill you in your 2 second vulnerable time currently if you engage them based on what they can throw at you. playing the way you described will just take waay too long for most opponents.

From what I've seen with accounts on both NA and EU, NA roamers are far more capable than EU, sometimes you gotta play it safe when fighting opponents with brains :3

@MUDse.7623 said:i just see that as you are trying to push deadeyes to a playstyle you deem fun to play against, nothing to do with balance.

I see right through your posts whenever these discussions come up. Your entire stance on this is not wanting to lose how easy it is to perma-stealth while still retaining all resources. Literally every counter-argument you have is "Oh this will make me even more powerful." (I bet someone could suggest that all Rifle Skills be nerfed by 50% damage, and you would still try to say that that change would make you more potent and "others would complain." Just stop.) If that were truly the case, then you wouldn't be diehard arguing against any and every mild suggestion that reduces stealth access. You don't know more than me, I'm not saying I know more than you, but there is no information you have that I don't regarding DE. I've played the stealth-builds with DE extensively - I know how super easy mode it is, and I know when to reflect and say...yeah this needs to change. They are not challenging builds in the slightest, and easily defeat every other profession with minimal effort and incredible room for error. Seriously, SA/DE can make more mistakes than any other profession/build and still come out on top - something is wrong here.

It's ok if you're not a good fighter outside of stealth, practice makes perfect! :3

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I'm not a big fan of any ideas making stealth or evasion debilitating to the Thief. They are the Thief's defense mechanism and they shouldn't be debilitating. This is the reason why I do not like the idea of stealth on dodge nor the idea of spending init for stealth.

F1 - Stealth, 0.25s CT, 8s CDF2 - Steal (DE: this will remain Steal but also applies Mark) - still instant castF3 - Stolen Items

All stealth from init skills (e.g. CnD) should be removed. All stealth from traits should be removed. Non-init skills that grant stealth will instead remove Revealed debuff (e.g. Blinding Powder will remove Revealed debuff instead of granting stealth). Having one skill to apply stealth will end the stealth stacking plus it would be really easy to balance.

Basically, I just took @MUDse.7623 's and @Turk.5460 's input and put them together and added a bit of my touch to come up with that. I think that would be manageable.

with that you remove so much stealth, that there wouldnt be any reason to pick SA. you took both and then completely removed even more stealth while saying at the beginnig stealth shouldnt be touched much as a defensive option.

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Thanks for clarifying. Our end goal is clearly the same - reduce uninterruptable stealth access. Yours is a good suggestion, but it seems to lack a cooldown. Given that with SA that would give you 4s of stealth, I think a cooldown of 10s would be fair.

sure one could put a cooldown on it, but i think that would again encourage people to use ini for stealth stacking, wich allways works and results in a very defensive play(endurance not used for stealth doesnt mean you dont have that endurance gain :3, but you cant use it offensively for a stealth attack then). yet deadeye should be offensive. but well thats just my opinion, because i know if i want to stealth i will stealth regardless and i dont see stealth stacking overall as such an issue, for what ever reason you dont want see endurance enough of a cost for it.

That goes back to what I said earlier though, 50 endurance is nothing in WvW when the stealth itself is 4s long. Without a cooldown your change merely puts a cast time on it. That's great and all, and would help a little bit, but would not change much on the frequency of near-free stealth access. The biggest cries of frustration in WvW vs. DE is how DE can attack, then disappear for a few seconds, then attack, disappear for a few seconds. Pretty much indefinitely, leaving less of a window of opportunity to attack than Mirages. Adding a cast time is not enough counter-play for the current iteration of DE.

well the window as said above would already be 50% bigger at least cause no more evade into stealth and again just because you dont use it for stealth, doesnt mean you dont have that extra endurance still ready for dodges. do you personally really attack , stealth, attack , stealth etc. more frequently than 1 every 10 seconds? i know i dont weave that fast because why would i? lets say i attack , 3 s reveal, stealth 4s, attack at the end, reveal 3s and then its just 3 more seconds till its ready again now that is if i didnt extend it. and i could just evade for that extra time pretty much if i still invest as much into endurance wich will make my opponent waste more cooldowns and then the rage will not be : ' deadeyes permastealth' but ' permastealth + permaevade'.

endurance gain itself indeed can be considered an issue

in WvW

, but that is for all professions.

IMO 50 endurance is not a low cost for 3s stealth ( remember spvp has lowe endurance gain and most run there without SA) and doesnt warrant a further cooldown.did you play deadeye alot before the rework? it was pretty risky to use kneel to enter stealth against a half decent opponent because it had a casttime.

You get revealed while in Rifle? I fire Spotter's Shot then TRB as stealth is ending if I want to play it safe. Only time I get reveal is if I use Death's Judgement (or backstab, but that's only for trying to 1hit), which isn't really all that frequent. I'll absolutely stealth more frequently than once every 10 seconds, especially against anyone semi-competent. I'm in full Valk, Hidden Killer only lasts 2 seconds.

wow! how can you be that scared in valk - i thought you better.no, not even a competent player is going to kill you in your 2 second vulnerable time currently if you engage them based on what they can throw at you. playing the way you described will just take waay too long for most opponents.

From what I've seen with accounts on both NA and EU, NA roamers are

far

more capable than EU, sometimes you gotta play it safe when fighting opponents with brains :3

if you say so. with brain you know that you can play alot more aggressive as you know then every possible way they can pressure you and avoid it with just your range, sometimes projectile block, immob, some CC or the ones that really deal damage you just onehit with a backstab. but probablly all here are just noobs and you have hard life over there :3

@MUDse.7623 said:i just see that as you are trying to push deadeyes to a playstyle you deem fun to play against, nothing to do with balance.

I see right through your posts whenever these discussions come up. Your entire stance on this is not wanting to lose how easy it is to perma-stealth while still retaining all resources. Literally every counter-argument you have is "Oh this will make me even more powerful." If that were

truly

the case, then you wouldn't be diehard arguing against any and

every

mild suggestion that reduces stealth access. You don't know more than me, I'm not saying I know more than you, but there is no information you have that I don't regarding DE. I've played the stealth-builds with DE extensively - I know how super easy mode it is, and I know when to reflect and say...yeah this needs to change. They are not challenging builds in the slightest, and easily defeat every other profession with minimal effort and

incredible room for error

. Seriously, SA/DE can make more mistakes than any other profession/build and still come out on top - something is wrong here.

yes stealth heavy builds are the .. i wouldnt call it easy because then again some new thief will feel offened, but id say safest builds to play for an experienced player. because you can pick your fights, wich means you wont ever die because your opponent was good, you only will die because you were bad in one way or another. <- this is only for solo maybe duo play obvioulsy in WvW. in spvp/PvE there is no point playing stealth heavy, its just plain stupid.

but i think you didnt understand my point.

your right that i dont see permastealth as big of an issue as others . i still didnt see one reason till today why in any mode permastealth itself is unbalanced, most complains are from WvW were it becomes an issue as the mode itself is not played competitive due to population inbalanced, lack of rewards etc. this means people set other goal for competition the game then is not balanced around. but that doesnt mean that permastealth is not balanced for WvW.

permastealth itself already means that it is not starving resources or it wouldnt be permanent.

there are a ton of options to gain stealth, a ton more than needed to permastealth. limiting a resource for stealth (like putting a cooldown on endurance to stealth conversion), doesnt increase the overall resource cost for stealth it just means the thief will use another resources for it. increasing the cost would be if the endurance / stealth seconds would be increased.

i think i understand the intention of yours, why you would want a cooldown (increase visible time), but i think it wont lead to the desired result just quite the contratry a cooldown to how often you can reliably enter stealth will increase the stealth time as you wont be suddenly able to sustain longer visibly so you will wait longer in stealth till you can safely engage.

at least we agree that we need a counterplay on entering stealth. but i think the thief shouldnt be pushed to remain longer in stealth with a cooldown. its not about the ease or not , yeah maybe it will be harder to play but it wont be less annoying for the opponent if you stealth now at minimum 10-15s. if the thief leaves stealth quickly again, him entering stealth is not really an issue.

long stealth when malice is already up is an issue but not because of the long stealth, but because it is soo easy to keep the malice and high malice is too much of a threat. one could make malice to decay or reset when the target is not hit (with any attack not just ini hits) for maybe 10? seconds. this would give the thief a reason to frequently leave stealth and allow counterplay better than a cooldown on the reliable stealth entering.

It's ok if you're not a good fighter outside of stealth, practice makes perfect! :3

i can handle myself just fine without stealth, no worries. yet i personally think that in WvW, wich i mainly play, for solo it is most important to pick the fights for wich stealth is just the best. i mean i could use mobility but if i wanted to race i would play a racing game. if numbers wouldnt matter in a fight, then there wouldnt be a reason to use stealth. basically the only reason i play with stealth is beacuse of larger groups and maybe a little cause of elusive builds - they are just alot easier to kill with stealth as they wont spamm their evade/mobility/stealth when they dont know that you are going to kill them or when your going to hit, saves alot of nerves.i regularly invest way too much gold into other builds and professions and play them a while just to realize at some point that without stealth while solo there will be fights that i will 100% lose (due to numbers) and that i cannot avoid, wich are not fun obviously.as for thieves IMO playing with mobility and instant reflexes are much bigger training wheels for 1 vs 1 fights than stealth :3

[Turk.5460]

Either you're being willfully ignorant of the counterplay increased visibile time would open up, or you're once again (called it!) trying to make it seem like a nerf will be some sort of outlandish buff - it's showing that you're afraid of losing the easy and frequent stealth access. No matter how much A DE visible for longer is much more prone to counterplay than one that is visible for less - you can't spin this any other way. More visible time means more time to be revealed, CC'd, counter-bursted, interrupted. There is literally no logical way you can argue against that. What are you so afraid of? You said it yourself that you'd adapt :3

As for It seems like we have very different opponents, because a Thief staying in stealth longer, but at the cost of needing to be visible for longer will absolutely not be more aggravating to their opponent. It sounds like your enemies seem to just stand there and wait for you to attack, where as competent opponents will simply leave the area until mark disappears. Stealth DE has no chase outside of a single shadowstep. And if they don't want to do that, they will run around sporadically, which will greatly hinder your chances of a successful m7 backstab :3

Forgive me if I don't believe that is anywhere near your opinion on 1v1's at all. With perma stealth vs. mobility and ...instant reflexes? (really? there is literally 1 build outside incredibly obscure once-a-month encounters that uses this) is just far-fetched. I know firsthand that perma stealth is far more of a crutch, and so do you. :3

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:Either you're being willfully ignorant of the counterplay increased visibile time would open up, or you're once again (called it!) trying to make it seem like a nerf will be some sort of outlandish buff - it's showing that you're afraid of losing the easy and frequent stealth access. No matter how much A DE visible for longer is much more prone to counterplay than one that is visible for less - you can't spin this any other way. More visible time means more time to be revealed, CC'd, counter-bursted, interrupted. There is literally no logical way you can argue against that. What are you so afraid of? You said it yourself that you'd adapt :3

As for It seems like we have very different opponents, because a Thief staying in stealth longer, but at the cost of needing to be visible for longer will absolutely not be more aggravating to their opponent. It sounds like your enemies seem to just stand there and wait for you to attack, where as competent opponents will simply leave the area until mark disappears. Stealth DE has no chase outside of a single shadowstep. And if they don't want to do that, they will run around sporadically, which will greatly hinder your chances of a successful m7 backstab :3

Your opinion on 1v1's with stealth vs. mobility and ...instant reflexes? (really?) is just far-fetched. I know firsthand that perma stealth is far more of a crutch, and so do you. :3

i edited again above post during your answer.anyway no i understand that the thief has to be more visible in X time for counterplay. yet i dont think a cooldown to entering stealth reliably (no that is not a buff) will do that. either the thief needs more staying power so he will or remaining in stealth needs to make them less deadly in my edit above youll see how i would go about that.

i dunno i can burst a stealth reliant thief with many builds, one with instant reflexes is pretty hard to kill and most of them run away once it tiggers only to return when its ready again. i obviously dont talk about a duel 1 vs 1 as dueling is not a mode.

edit: bolded part in your commet i think is the issue, that you really think the thief will be longer visible :3

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Either you're being willfully ignorant of the counterplay increased visibile time would open up, or you're

once again

(called it!) trying to make it seem like a nerf will be some sort of outlandish buff - it's showing that you're afraid of losing the easy and frequent stealth access. No matter how much A DE visible for longer is much more prone to counterplay than one that is visible for less - you can't spin this any other way. More visible time means more time to be revealed, CC'd, counter-bursted, interrupted. There is literally

no logical way

you can argue against that. What are you so afraid of? You said it yourself that you'd adapt :3

As for It seems like we have very different opponents, because a Thief staying in stealth longer, but at the cost of needing to be visible for longer will

absolutely not

be more aggravating to their opponent. It sounds like your enemies seem to just stand there and wait for you to attack, where as competent opponents will simply leave the area until mark disappears. Stealth DE has no chase outside of a single shadowstep. And if they don't want to do that, they will run around sporadically, which will

greatly

hinder your chances of a successful m7 backstab :3

Your opinion on 1v1's with stealth vs. mobility and ...instant reflexes? (really?) is just far-fetched. I know firsthand that perma stealth is far more of a crutch, and so do you. :3

i edited again above post.anyway no i understand that the thief has to be more visible in X time for counterplay. yet i dont think a cooldown to entering stealth reliably (no that is not a buff) will do that. either the thief needs more staying power so he will or remaining in stealth needs to make them less deadly in my edit above youll see how i would go about that.

i dunno i can burst a stealth reliant thief with many builds, one with instant reflexes is pretty hard to kill and most of them run away once it tiggers only to return when its ready again. i obviously dont talk about a duel 1 vs 1 as dueling is not a mode.

No single player can counter-bursted me into downstate after I engage on them in my SA DE build. It just doesn't happen. This is because the ones that have the burst damage available to do so don't have the HP to withstand my opener. Anyone who can survive the opener doesn't have the damage to counter-burst before I can stealth and wait out their passive/protection.

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Either you're being willfully ignorant of the counterplay increased visibile time would open up, or you're

once again

(called it!) trying to make it seem like a nerf will be some sort of outlandish buff - it's showing that you're afraid of losing the easy and frequent stealth access. No matter how much A DE visible for longer is much more prone to counterplay than one that is visible for less - you can't spin this any other way. More visible time means more time to be revealed, CC'd, counter-bursted, interrupted. There is literally

no logical way

you can argue against that. What are you so afraid of? You said it yourself that you'd adapt :3

As for It seems like we have very different opponents, because a Thief staying in stealth longer, but at the cost of needing to be visible for longer will

absolutely not

be more aggravating to their opponent. It sounds like your enemies seem to just stand there and wait for you to attack, where as competent opponents will simply leave the area until mark disappears. Stealth DE has no chase outside of a single shadowstep. And if they don't want to do that, they will run around sporadically, which will

greatly

hinder your chances of a successful m7 backstab :3

Your opinion on 1v1's with stealth vs. mobility and ...instant reflexes? (really?) is just far-fetched. I know firsthand that perma stealth is far more of a crutch, and so do you. :3

i edited again above post.anyway no i understand that the thief has to be more visible in X time for counterplay. yet i dont think a cooldown to entering stealth reliably (no that is not a buff) will do that. either the thief needs more staying power so he will or remaining in stealth needs to make them less deadly in my edit above youll see how i would go about that.

i dunno i can burst a stealth reliant thief with many builds, one with instant reflexes is pretty hard to kill and most of them run away once it tiggers only to return when its ready again. i obviously dont talk about a duel 1 vs 1 as dueling is not a mode.

No single player can counter-bursted me into downstate after I engage on them in my SA DE build. It just doesn't happen. This is because the ones that have the burst damage available to do so

don't have the HP to withstand my opener.

Anyone who can survive the opener doesn't have the damage to counter-burst before I can stealth and wait out their passive/protection.

that is correct. they cannot burst you, as they cant burst me.i said above its more 'trainin wheels than SA' because you kept saying how easy it is.a newish thief even on SA wont run around in permastealth, they will stealth infight but you can CC + burst them with many builds as they often lack the reaction to break it yet an acro thief will get auto saved and than panic run away. running is usually the first thing a thief learns.thats also the reason why when people complain to me about my build they admit that they usually kill most other deadeyes they see.SA deadeye is not easy, its safe in an experienced hand - thats a huge difference.

anyway what do you say to malice decay/reset as incentive to leave stealth as said above rather than a cooldown on the endurance to stealth converstion skill?and do you understand why a cooldown wont make the thief remain longer visible but only longer stealthed between each visible time and therefor overall less visible?

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Either you're being willfully ignorant of the counterplay increased visibile time would open up, or you're

once again

(called it!) trying to make it seem like a nerf will be some sort of outlandish buff - it's showing that you're afraid of losing the easy and frequent stealth access. No matter how much A DE visible for longer is much more prone to counterplay than one that is visible for less - you can't spin this any other way. More visible time means more time to be revealed, CC'd, counter-bursted, interrupted. There is literally

no logical way

you can argue against that. What are you so afraid of? You said it yourself that you'd adapt :3

As for It seems like we have very different opponents, because a Thief staying in stealth longer, but at the cost of needing to be visible for longer will

absolutely not

be more aggravating to their opponent. It sounds like your enemies seem to just stand there and wait for you to attack, where as competent opponents will simply leave the area until mark disappears. Stealth DE has no chase outside of a single shadowstep. And if they don't want to do that, they will run around sporadically, which will

greatly

hinder your chances of a successful m7 backstab :3

Your opinion on 1v1's with stealth vs. mobility and ...instant reflexes? (really?) is just far-fetched. I know firsthand that perma stealth is far more of a crutch, and so do you. :3

i edited again above post.anyway no i understand that the thief has to be more visible in X time for counterplay. yet i dont think a cooldown to entering stealth reliably (no that is not a buff) will do that. either the thief needs more staying power so he will or remaining in stealth needs to make them less deadly in my edit above youll see how i would go about that.

i dunno i can burst a stealth reliant thief with many builds, one with instant reflexes is pretty hard to kill and most of them run away once it tiggers only to return when its ready again. i obviously dont talk about a duel 1 vs 1 as dueling is not a mode.

No single player can counter-bursted me into downstate after I engage on them in my SA DE build. It just doesn't happen. This is because the ones that have the burst damage available to do so

don't have the HP to withstand my opener.

Anyone who can survive the opener doesn't have the damage to counter-burst before I can stealth and wait out their passive/protection.

that is correct. they cannot burst you, as they cant burst me.i said above its more 'trainin wheels than SA' because you kept saying how easy it is.a newish thief even on SA wont run around in permastealth, they will stealth infight but you can CC + burst them with many builds as they often lack the reaction to break it yet an acro thief will get auto saved and than panic run away. running is usually the first thing a thief learns.thats also the reason why when people complain to me about my build the admit that they usually kill any other deadeye they see.SA deadeye is not easy, its safe in an experienced hand - thats a huge difference.

anyway what do you say to malice decay/reset as incentive to leave stealth as said above rather than a cooldown on the endurance to stealth converstion skill?and do you understand why a cooldown wont make the thief remain longer visible but only longer stealthed between each visible time and therefor overall less visible?

Malice shouldn't decay, though I firmly believe it should be consumed if the sneak attack misses.

A cooldown on using endurance as a resource to enter stealth will make a DE need to use other expendable options with longer cooldowns to get into stealth. If they blow a skill such as Shadow Meld, then that's a charge gone, needing 45s to come back. If they don't use shadow meld, then they may use their stolen ability, which is also limited and bound to the recharge of Mark. If they don't use either of those, the only other option is smoke field + leap. That means either using almost all initiative from Rifle, or having to swap to D/P. If they're in D/P, then their offensive ability is limited to Malicious Backstab (and a counterable smoke field/leap), which is moderately easy to avoid if your opponent is already aware they are in a fight.

So do you now understand that a cooldown on endurance as a resource for stealth will eventually leave a DE exhausted of stealth options to continue re-stealthing? This would reward opponents who actually counter-pressure the DE properly and stick with them. They're not going to stop attacking and stand still once you re-stealth, they'll run around, try to predict your path, AoE, do things that will often require you to dodge, which further limits access to stealth.

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Either you're being willfully ignorant of the counterplay increased visibile time would open up, or you're

once again

(called it!) trying to make it seem like a nerf will be some sort of outlandish buff - it's showing that you're afraid of losing the easy and frequent stealth access. No matter how much A DE visible for longer is much more prone to counterplay than one that is visible for less - you can't spin this any other way. More visible time means more time to be revealed, CC'd, counter-bursted, interrupted. There is literally

no logical way

you can argue against that. What are you so afraid of? You said it yourself that you'd adapt :3

As for It seems like we have very different opponents, because a Thief staying in stealth longer, but at the cost of needing to be visible for longer will

absolutely not

be more aggravating to their opponent. It sounds like your enemies seem to just stand there and wait for you to attack, where as competent opponents will simply leave the area until mark disappears. Stealth DE has no chase outside of a single shadowstep. And if they don't want to do that, they will run around sporadically, which will

greatly

hinder your chances of a successful m7 backstab :3

Your opinion on 1v1's with stealth vs. mobility and ...instant reflexes? (really?) is just far-fetched. I know firsthand that perma stealth is far more of a crutch, and so do you. :3

i edited again above post.anyway no i understand that the thief has to be more visible in X time for counterplay. yet i dont think a cooldown to entering stealth reliably (no that is not a buff) will do that. either the thief needs more staying power so he will or remaining in stealth needs to make them less deadly in my edit above youll see how i would go about that.

i dunno i can burst a stealth reliant thief with many builds, one with instant reflexes is pretty hard to kill and most of them run away once it tiggers only to return when its ready again. i obviously dont talk about a duel 1 vs 1 as dueling is not a mode.

No single player can counter-bursted me into downstate after I engage on them in my SA DE build. It just doesn't happen. This is because the ones that have the burst damage available to do so

don't have the HP to withstand my opener.

Anyone who can survive the opener doesn't have the damage to counter-burst before I can stealth and wait out their passive/protection.

that is correct. they cannot burst you, as they cant burst me.i said above its more 'trainin wheels than SA' because you kept saying how easy it is.a newish thief even on SA wont run around in permastealth, they will stealth infight but you can CC + burst them with many builds as they often lack the reaction to break it yet an acro thief will get auto saved and than panic run away. running is usually the first thing a thief learns.thats also the reason why when people complain to me about my build the admit that they usually kill any other deadeye they see.SA deadeye is not easy, its safe in an experienced hand - thats a huge difference.

anyway what do you say to malice decay/reset as incentive to leave stealth as said above rather than a cooldown on the endurance to stealth converstion skill?and do you understand why a cooldown wont make the thief remain longer visible but only longer stealthed between each visible time and therefor overall less visible?

Malice shouldn't decay, though I firmly believe it should be consumed if the sneak attack misses.

A cooldown on using endurance as a resource to enter stealth will make a DE need to use other expendable options

with longer cooldowns

to get into stealth. If they blow a skill such as Shadow Meld, then that's a charge gone, needing 45s to come back. If they don't use shadow meld, then they may use their stolen ability, which is also limited and bound to the recharge of Mark. If they don't use either of those, the only other option is smoke field + leap. That means either using

almost all

initiative from Rifle, or having to swap to D/P. If they're in D/P, then their offensive ability is limited to Malicious Backstab (and a counterable smoke field/leap), which is moderately easy to avoid if your opponent is already aware they are in a fight.

So do you now understand that a cooldown on

endurance as a resource

for stealth will eventually leave a DE exhausted of stealth options to continue re-stealthing? This would reward opponents who actually counter-pressure the DE properly and stick with them. They're not going to stop attacking and stand still once you re-stealth, they'll run around, try to predict your path, AoE, do things that will often require you to dodge, which further limits access to stealth.

yes it will cost other resources. but the deadeye still wont leave stealth for longer when he doesnt feel it is safe to do so. it wont reward people for counter pressuring with a chance for killing as the deadeye will just play more defensively, they also wont leave if they think they have a good chance to kill the deadeye so you just need to minimally give them the illusion your going to commit. and once malice is up you just need to wait for an opportune moment to hit easy.the weaker you make it, the more defensive it has to play, wich will be annoying. pre rework de on stealth was laughed at because they had to play too defensive against decent opponents wich didnt make them less of an annoyance tho.i think pushing the deadeye to play offensive is a much better way to get your option for counterplay than reducing their defensive options. the 'best' you can get in reducing defensive options is make them unviable against good players and still an annoyance for everyone. yet when they have to play aggressive -visible- to be able to kill better players, wouldnt that be better? it would at least keep it viable to play with stealth.

currently i can attack, go stealth 30 seconds, onehit. you see you blame me for wanting to keep options to stealth - what is you excuse to want malice kept without attacking your opponent?

[Turk.5460]

@MUDse.7623 said:the weaker you make it, the more defensive it has to play, wich will be annoying.

No matter how many times you say this it won't magically make it true. You base your assumption on speculation, whereas I base my disagreement on experience - It wasn't more annoying to play against before the rework,I know this because I fought against it - and it certainly wouldn't be more annoying if stealth access gets balanced.

@MUDse.7623 said:currently i can attack, go stealth 30 seconds, onehit. you see you blame me for wanting to keep options to stealth - what is you excuse to want malice kept without attacking your opponent?

I never said anything to that effect. I said it shouldn't decay - if you want elaboration on that, just ask. It would allow for multiple M7 procs. If M7 were given a cooldown, then sure, malice decay would be alright.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I'm not a big fan of any ideas making stealth or evasion debilitating to the Thief. They are the Thief's defense mechanism and they shouldn't be debilitating. This is the reason why I do not like the idea of stealth on dodge nor the idea of spending init for stealth.

F1 - Stealth, 0.25s CT, 8s CDF2 - Steal (DE: this will remain Steal but also applies Mark) - still instant castF3 - Stolen Items

All stealth from init skills (e.g. CnD) should be removed. All stealth from traits should be removed. Non-init skills that grant stealth will instead remove Revealed debuff (e.g. Blinding Powder will remove Revealed debuff instead of granting stealth). Having one skill to apply stealth will end the stealth stacking plus it would be really easy to balance.

Basically, I just took @MUDse.7623 's and @"Turk.5460" 's input and put them together and added a bit of my touch to come up with that. I think that would be manageable.

with that you remove so much stealth, that there wouldnt be any reason to pick SA. you took both and then completely removed even more stealth while saying at the beginnig stealth shouldnt be touched much as a defensive option.

SA should be redesigned also.

• it should improve both stealth and shadowstep (e.g. giving shadowstep evade frame).
• it should either reduce CD, reset CD, and/or extend stealth time for F1 stealth.
• For example, a successful stealth attack will reduce the F1 stealth CD by 50%.
• Another example, a successful stealth attack has a chance to make the next F1 stealth instant cast.
• Shadow Meld should be an SA's GM trait that reads; "Stealth skill removes revealed. Stealth has 2 charges, but CD is now at 25s"
• CiS and SR should be just one trait
• Meld with Shadows grants evade on Shadowstep in addition to extending stealth
• Last Refuge and Concealed Defeat deleted forever

These are just some examples.

There are so many things they can improve in SA by making F1 as Stealth and also making shadowstep special for Thief.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I'm not a big fan of any ideas making stealth or evasion debilitating to the Thief. They are the Thief's defense mechanism and they shouldn't be debilitating. This is the reason why I do not like the idea of stealth on dodge nor the idea of spending init for stealth.

F1 - Stealth, 0.25s CT, 8s CDF2 - Steal (DE: this will remain Steal but also applies Mark) - still instant castF3 - Stolen Items

All stealth from init skills (e.g. CnD) should be removed. All stealth from traits should be removed. Non-init skills that grant stealth will instead remove Revealed debuff (e.g. Blinding Powder will remove Revealed debuff instead of granting stealth). Having one skill to apply stealth will end the stealth stacking plus it would be really easy to balance.

Basically, I just took @MUDse.7623 's and @"Turk.5460" 's input and put them together and added a bit of my touch to come up with that. I think that would be manageable.

with that you remove so much stealth, that there wouldnt be any reason to pick SA. you took both and then completely removed even more stealth while saying at the beginnig stealth shouldnt be touched much as a defensive option.

SA should be redesigned also.

• it should improve both stealth and shadowstep (e.g. giving shadowstep evade frame).
• it should either reduce CD, reset CD, and/or extend stealth time for F1 stealth.
• For example, a successful stealth attack will reduce the F1 stealth CD by 50%.
• Another example, a successful stealth attack has a chance to make the next F1 stealth instant cast.
• Shadow Meld should be an SA's GM trait that reads; "Stealth skill removes revealed. Stealth has 2 charges, but CD is now at 25s"
• CiS and SR should be just one trait
• Meld with Shadows grants evade on Shadowstep in addition to extending stealth
• Last Refuge and Concealed Defeat deleted forever

These are just some examples.

There are so many things they can improve in SA by making F1 as Stealth and also making shadowstep special for Thief.

AKA how to make SA overpowered and make Acrobatics have no purpose given the evasion added to SA.Most of the SA traits just need the old treatment that IoS got to prevent abuse of stacking stealth, and then need to be buffed accordingly to make entering stealth mid-combat (and leaving it) more valuable, rather than just incentive to camp invisibility.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I'm not a big fan of any ideas making stealth or evasion debilitating to the Thief. They are the Thief's defense mechanism and they shouldn't be debilitating. This is the reason why I do not like the idea of stealth on dodge nor the idea of spending init for stealth.

F1 - Stealth, 0.25s CT, 8s CDF2 - Steal (DE: this will remain Steal but also applies Mark) - still instant castF3 - Stolen Items

All stealth from init skills (e.g. CnD) should be removed. All stealth from traits should be removed. Non-init skills that grant stealth will instead remove Revealed debuff (e.g. Blinding Powder will remove Revealed debuff instead of granting stealth). Having one skill to apply stealth will end the stealth stacking plus it would be really easy to balance.

Basically, I just took @MUDse.7623 's and @"Turk.5460" 's input and put them together and added a bit of my touch to come up with that. I think that would be manageable.

with that you remove so much stealth, that there wouldnt be any reason to pick SA. you took both and then completely removed even more stealth while saying at the beginnig stealth shouldnt be touched much as a defensive option.

SA should be redesigned also.

• it should improve both stealth and shadowstep (e.g. giving shadowstep evade frame).
• it should either reduce CD, reset CD, and/or extend stealth time for F1 stealth.
• For example, a successful stealth attack will reduce the F1 stealth CD by 50%.
• Another example, a successful stealth attack has a chance to make the next F1 stealth instant cast.
• Shadow Meld should be an SA's GM trait that reads; "Stealth skill removes revealed. Stealth has 2 charges, but CD is now at 25s"
• CiS and SR should be just one trait
• Meld with Shadows grants evade on Shadowstep in addition to extending stealth
• Last Refuge and Concealed Defeat deleted forever

These are just some examples.

There are so many things they can improve in SA by making F1 as Stealth and also making shadowstep special for Thief.

AKA how to make SA overpowered and make Acrobatics have no purpose given the evasion added to SA.

How is evasion on shadowstep makes it overpowered? IMO, it's something that should have been part of shadowstep in the first place.

You basically just ignored everything in Acro just so you can call this iteration of SA OP.

Most of the SA traits just need the old treatment that IoS got to prevent abuse of stacking stealth, and then need to be buffed accordingly to make entering stealth mid-combat (and leaving it) more valuable, rather than just incentive to camp invisibility.

Just add more band-aid. Ok.

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:the weaker you make it, the more defensive it has to play, wich will be annoying.

No matter how many times you say this it won't magically make it true. You base your assumption on speculation, whereas I base my disagreement on experience - It wasn't more annoying to play against before the rework,

I know this because I fought against it

- and it certainly wouldn't be more annoying if stealth access gets balanced.

thats awesome that you fought against it, i fought as it and can asure you that i wasnt much easier to kill aside from that i didnt run HK+valk back then. the difference was that i wasnt as deadly beacause no malicious backstab, the DJ was also slower and blockable but IMO overall a little easier to apply as no stealth requirement.that depends on the deadeye running it how they will change their playstyle after a significant nerf to one thing.if you want to play it safe you still will be able to play it safe, you can also keep repeating that reducing one access will magically get your opponent out of stealth - it wont if they want to remain inside. if i think right now that i cant sustain longer than 3s visibly, i also wont be visible longer after a change. because why would i? you still cant force me and ontop you give me less incentive to get visible. i base my 'assumption' on both my experience and knowing how i would fight with such a change.

i just think if they have to fight more aggressive, more visibly to have access to their high damage execute then that will mean they are either no threat at all and can be ignored or you can counterplay it. right now they can stealth for ages and still onehit you unless you 'run away', wich is a reaction most simply dont want to do to survive, they might do it if nothing will happen in that fight, but not because they have to, to survive against a target that wont show its face. this you should know by now if you truely used any version of stealthy deadeye for a while.

overall i think our balance goals simply differ. i want to keep balance close to mode design and would prefer a change in the mode if one wants a different balance. with that it currently IMO doesnt make sense to solo roam in WvW with anything but a build that can pick its fights - therefor stealth or VERY mobile. stealth however has ontop that IMO it is better than mobility for picking fights, it also gives the option to better scout etc. so in my view a stealthy thief is the only one that should be running solo. in small group 2-3 it is advised to take at least 1 mesmer as that increases your options and obviously when the game was played competitive with full maps during the entire match, then you would be able to organise more groups of different sizes for different purpose. here the deadeyes wont be able to fight groups, because you know stomping is an issue. if the only other ones running solo are also thieves or highly mobile builds, then thats fairly balanced. the one that then would be an issue is permastealth daredevil as the elite is pretty strong in outnumbered fights as it denys a rez. that is what i think deadeyes balance is mainly about currently, that decent opponents wont let the deadeye finish one of them. one could obviously argue to remove that role entirely from WvW, so that no class is efficient solo anymore.the main problem WvW has is that the matches are too long wich makes population balancing impossible. with that the mode is not competitvely played by its design, instead people start using different goals. this also leads to pretty much any profession thinking they should have a fair chance in solo roaming encounters, wich is not what they are designed about.now balancing can either cater to how people play, wich i think would be wrong or cater to the design of the mode. if they decide as WvW is not played competitive to remove its competitive aspects , points, matchmaking etc. and make it more or less like 3 factions that dont fight round based but for momentary -not sure about the word for that- dominance? over a certain area then one could balance it differently more encounter based.i think my suggestion to enter stealth and a malice decay/reset when not attacking for too long would make deadeyes less oppressive without hurting the role in the mode. because right now you can hardly prevent them from stealthing and when they stealth no matter how long they remain a huge threat. making a stealthed based deadeye rather weak in a 1 vs 1 encounter wich i feel is what you want, then they have less options to punish people for stepping out of their role and running solo. IMO by design a deadeye should be in advantage in a 1 vs 1 fight in WvW. it doesnt have to be too oppressive but they should be in advantage. i think we simply disagree here and so there is no point in further talking in circles. i understand you point, you understand mine i hope.

@MUDse.7623 said:currently i can attack, go stealth 30 seconds, onehit. you see you blame me for wanting to keep options to stealth - what is you excuse to want malice kept without attacking your opponent?

I never said anything to that effect. I said it shouldn't decay - if you want elaboration on that, just ask. It would allow for multiple M7 procs. If M7 were given a cooldown, then sure, malice decay would be alright.

yeah that would be an issue if the decay or reset happend too fast. thats why i said if you dont attack your target for 10 seconds, if thats not enough maybe 15s. by that time the deadeye could aswell drop mark and get his m7 proc again but the target will remain too long in danger of a onehit if the deadeye doesnt drop the mark and just waits in stealth.

[Ferus.3165]

deadeye is not even the biggest problem, wvw is crawling with daredevils right now. That spec is so braindead to play everyone is jumping on that bandwagon...and the 4.25 sec invul on 72 sec cd while gaining max movement speed and dealing extreme dmg up close doesn't help either (yes daggerstorm)and with improvisation the chance is quite big that you can immediately use it again after a steal and that is super obnoxious.d/p daredevil is basicly immune to everything but the middle of big zerg fights right now...too much invis, too much mobility, too much utility (bandits defense??? what even is that broken skill and even though it is so broken not every daredevil even takes that skill because there are so many of them that strong lol) and all that ontop of the top notch burst and dps this class brings... Like there is no downtime to anything, you can make one mistake after another and you will still live because you simply shadowstep away or go invis or evade for 10 seconds straight lol. The best thing is that thieve can still contest points while using daggerstorm :D.

[Alatar.7364]

@Ferus.3165 said:

and the 4.25 sec invul on 72 sec cd while gaining max movement speed and dealing extreme dmg up close doesn't help either (yes daggerstorm)and with improvisation the chance is quite big that you can immediately use it again after a steal and that is super obnoxious.d/p daredevil is basicly immune to everything but the middle of big zerg fights right now...

Does anybody actually take Trickster over Bountiful Theft?... Especially in a mode where Thief picks up the fight and is not forced to fight every few seconds like in PvP....Also, is it me or are you trying to make it look like Improvisation almost always resets the skill, so people who don't know what you're talking about actually believe that nonsense?

[Ferus.3165]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Ferus.3165 said:

and the 4.25 sec invul on 72 sec cd while gaining max movement speed and dealing extreme dmg up close doesn't help either (yes daggerstorm)and with improvisation the chance is quite big that you can immediately use it again after a steal and that is super obnoxious.d/p daredevil is basicly immune to everything but the middle of big zerg fights right now...

Does anybody actually take

Trickster

over

Bountiful Theft

?... Especially in a mode where Thief picks up the fight and is not forced to fight every few seconds like in PvP....Also, is it me or are you trying to make it look like

Improvisation

almost always resets the skill, so people who don't know what you're talking about actually believe that nonsense?

i don't know how many people really take trickster, but many thiefs i've come across run improvisation and you realise it very quickly when they cast daggerstorm 2 times in a row, and not the stolen warrior skill. Ofc it does not reset those skills everytime, but every 20 sec you get a chance of what 1/6? to recharge your ultimate... but yeah daggerstorm is just the tip of the iceberg...

[Kallist.5917]

Honestly, I would agree, we dont need a buff. We need a mechanical overhaul/reimagining. Something to bring us better inline with the balance of the game while keeping the class fun to play. The way it is right, you don't really bring much to a group that another class couldnt.

[babazhook.6805]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Ferus.3165 said:

and the 4.25 sec invul on 72 sec cd while gaining max movement speed and dealing extreme dmg up close doesn't help either (yes daggerstorm)and with improvisation the chance is quite big that you can immediately use it again after a steal and that is super obnoxious.d/p daredevil is basicly immune to everything but the middle of big zerg fights right now...

Does anybody actually take

Trickster

over

Bountiful Theft

?... Especially in a mode where Thief picks up the fight and is not forced to fight every few seconds like in PvP....Also, is it me or are you trying to make it look like

Improvisation

almost always resets the skill, so people who don't know what you're talking about actually believe that nonsense?

I like trickster in my d/p staff daredevil build. I trait up withdraw , RFI and daggerstorm with Scorpion wire the other slot flexible. This allows me to forgo EA as I generally get enough cleanses off the Trick utilities. I find with the ease with which Boons reapplied it harder to make a significant impact stealing the same. SW used to be subpar because of the misses , but with two uses in a very short period of time , it a very nice cleanse. (Acro/Tr/DD).

[NuhDah.9812]

Edit delete

[Turk.5460]

@Ferus.3165 said:deadeye is not even the biggest problem, wvw is crawling with daredevils right now. That spec is so braindead to play everyone is jumping on that bandwagon...

I'm in T1/T2 NA and I see more core Thieves than Daredevils. Roaming used to be almost exclusively Thieves, Mesmers, and Rangers. Right now I actually see Holosmith the most while roaming, followed closely by SoulBeast. Daredevil is pretty rare, even Reaper sees more play during T1/2 (5PM-10PM PST) in roaming.