Last Names of the royal Family.

[Reusterr.6982]

Hi there just something i have never seen come up anywhere is the last names of the monarchs and royal courts in the game there are 3 or was 3 main royal family arks.

1. Ascalon
2. Orr
3. KrytaJust counting the Tyrian royalty.So my question what is King Adelbern last name or Duke Barradin's or Queen Salma's ?Just trying to get more info as for the rl royalty have last names Queen Elizabeth Windsor and her Children get the Mountbatten-Windsor name.just like has the lore for this ever been in the game at all ?

[crepuscular.9047]

@"Reusterr.6982" said:Hi there just something i have never seen come up anywhere is the last names of the monarchs and royal courts in the game there are 3 or was 3 main royal family arks.

1. Ascalon
2. Orr
3. KrytaJust counting the Tyrian royalty.So my question what is King Adelbern last name or Duke Barradin's or Queen Salma's ?Just trying to get more info as for the rl royalty have last names Queen Elizabeth Windsor and her Children get the Mountbatten-Windsor name.just like has the lore for this ever been in the game at all ?

Actually, no, Windsor is not the British royal family's last name, it's just something they provide as their last name when needed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/british-royal-family-surname-last-name-a7519901.htmlthey have no surname til King George V made the call the British Royal Family will be Windsor

this is the same in other countries, i.e. Japan's royal family

[Reusterr.6982]

that a bit of history i missed so i guess no last name in game then do they have a house or something?

[Reusterr.6982]

reading that as a royal you can come up with what ever you want as a name if needed.

[Genesis.8572]

@Reusterr.6982 said:that a bit of history i missed so i guess no last name in game then do they have a house or something?Though Tyrian royals trace their lineage back to King Doric, the Krytan royal line is probably referred to as the Salma Dynasty.

[kasoki.5180]

Royal families usually belong to a "house" and its this house name that is often used as their "last name" in historiography.For example, House of Habsburg or House of Bourbon

So, the question would be, what is the name of Krytan royal house?

[Reusterr.6982]

Yes that is the question.

[Reusterr.6982]

House Doric i guess.

[Genesis.8572]

@"Reusterr.6982" said:House Doric i guess.Doubtful. Probably "House Salma" and the "Salmaic Dynasty" given how Salma was the founding member of the restored Krytan monarchy following the War in Kryta against the White Mantle. Salma was the illegitimate child of King Jadon, who deserted the throne in the face of charr invasion. So while she is a child of King Jadon and a descendant of King Doric, she would also represents a new house or branch.

[Lahmia.2193]

@Genesis.8572 said:

@"Reusterr.6982" said:House Doric i guess.Doubtful. Probably "House Salma" and the "Salmaic Dynasty" given how Salma was the founding member of the restored Krytan monarchy following the War in Kryta against the White Mantle. Salma was the illegitimate child of King Jadon, who deserted the throne in the face of charr invasion. So while she is a child of King Jadon and a descendant of King Doric, she would also represents a new house or branch.

It still tickles me that people hate on the White Mantle and support the monarchy despite the fact that without the White Mantle and the Mursaat, Kryta would be just another Charr land, burnt and barren like Ascalon.

[Kovac.4372]

If the family names don't come from their fiefdoms of origin (Anjou, Habsburg, etc.) then they come from the name of their founding members, either given by historians or starting to be called that way some time after the "house" is established (Arpad, Seljuq, Rurikid, etc.).

Now, considering the small size of the human kingdoms in Tyria, the ruling royal houses might simply be called

• of Kryta
• of Ascalon
• of Orr

In the case of Ascalon, since Adelbern became king through election instead of inheritance (with duke Barradin being the brother of the previous king and direct heir), the family name might be

• Adelbern, Adelbernian

As well as Adelbern holding court in Rin instead of Drascir

• of Rin

...We know that Barradin is the first name of the duke, so the GW1 location "Barradin's Estate" isn't really the name of the location, just a decription. We also don't know what territory his duchy might hold, it is more likely it is simply a titular title (no de jure lands associated).

Arenanet isn't really following feudal rules very well when naming and developing characters of nobility.

...

For example in Elona we have Turai Ossa, founder of the Kournan dynasty and people see his last name as "Ossa" and shrug and don't think twice about it. Except I don't remember where "Ossa" comes from, if it's been explained at all.

It would be more appropriate to name the dynasty "House of Turai" or "of Kourna" than just slapping Ossa as the surname.

...

The Canthan nobility in GW1, the Kurzick Houses probably came the closest to fleshing out a decent system like we had in the real world.

But for the most part, don't even bother figuring these things out for ingame ... the devs didn't really put that much effort in it.

[Castigator.3470]

@"Genesis.8572" said:Doubtful. Probably "House Salma" and the "Salmaic Dynasty" given how Salma was the founding member of the restored Krytan monarchy following the War in Kryta against the White Mantle. Salma was the illegitimate child of King Jadon, who deserted the throne in the face of charr invasion. So while she is a child of King Jadon and a descendant of King Doric, she would also represents a new house or branch.

Salma was actually a legitimate child as far as King Jadon was concerned. He recognized her and made royal dispensations to her mother, who was likely bound by her office as priestess, to remain in a temple and couldn't move to Lion's Arch, which later turned out to be a good thing, as it allowed Salma to gather loyalists and avoid the White Mantle, who would likely have attempted to get rid of her. Unfortunately, Jadon ran away when the charr invaded.

White Mantle Propaganda:The Pretender, known as “Princess” Salma among traitors and heathens, persists in her illegitimate claim to the throne of Kryta. The daughter of a disgraced priestess, Salma now leads nothing more than a pack of outlaws and rebels lurking in the woods.

The White Mantle and True Government of Kryta advise all citizens that Salma and her cohorts are heavily armed and should be considered dangerous. Speaking with or aiding her in any way is an act of High Sedition.Also, Kryta may practise cognatic inheritance, which would allow both female and male children as candidates for the throne. Likely Primogeniture, as it's predictable and straightforward.

@Lahmia.2193 saidIt still tickles me that people hate on the White Mantle and support the monarchy despite the fact that without the White Mantle and the Mursaat, Kryta would be just another Charr land, burnt and barren like Ascalon.Well, you're correct on the charr land part, but at the time of the White Mantle assault, the Krytan Army was already beaten, so there was no need to burn the land.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Name?Doric.Last name?Doric.And what's your name?Mazdak.Mazdak Mazdak?Nah, Mazdak Doric.Okay, okay, how many Dorics are there between the two of you?Three, there's Doric Doric, and Mazdak Doric.

In more seriousness, I'm surprised no one brought up our fabled Krytan family of Oswald Thorn, his brother Ewan Thorn, and his son Edrick Thorn. Though supposedly the Thorn line was killed off... The crown given to Oz's cousin... maybe his cousin was also a Thorn? But so far, Thorn is the only royal surname we actually have as far as I remember.

@Genesis.8572 said:

@Reusterr.6982 said:that a bit of history i missed so i guess no last name in game then do they have a house or something?Though Tyrian royals trace their lineage back to King Doric, the Krytan royal line is probably referred to as the Salma Dynasty.

The Krytan royal family after Jadon (e.g., Salma to Jennah) is, but before then it wasn't.

I guess that means Jennah's last name is Salma?

Beade Salma, Edair Salma, Emilane Salma, and Rodrick Salma?

@Lahmia.2193 said:It still tickles me that people hate on the White Mantle and support the monarchy despite the fact that without the White Mantle and the Mursaat, Kryta would be just another Charr land, burnt and barren like Ascalon.To be fair, the White Mantle everyone hates came about after that event, as beforehand they were a charity group that had a lot of people who cared more about the well-being of the community rather than power or servitude to the Unseen Ones. Then the mursaat killed those nice guys and took Saul away.

[Genesis.8572]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The Krytan royal family after Jadon (e.g., Salma to Jennah) is, but before then it wasn't.I have not said otherwise.

I guess that means Jennah's last name is Salma?

Beade Salma, Edair Salma, Emilane Salma, and Rodrick Salma?"Salma" is probably not a surname. It does likely represents a House or Dynasty name.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@"Kovac.4372" said:

For example in Elona we have Turai Ossa, founder of the Kournan dynasty and people see his last name as "Ossa" and shrug and don't think twice about it. Except I don't remember where "Ossa" comes from, if it's been explained at all.

It would be more appropriate to name the dynasty "House of Turai" or "of Kourna" than just slapping Ossa as the surname.From what we've heard, Ossa is the surname that Turai was born with. He didn't start out (as far as we know) as royalty or the like, so tracing the origin of his surname probably wouldn't be any easier for him than for any other commoner, but I wouldn't say his decision not to set it aside is 'just slapping it on'.

Also, Kryta may practise cognatic inheritance, which would allow both female and male children as candidates for the throne. Likely Primogeniture, as it's predictable and straightforward.

SoS has some interesting implications here. If memory serves, King Baede didn't designate which of his four children would succeed him until he was on his deathbed, and he picked one of the younger ones. The way they spoke of it, there was no assumption that the eldest would be the one to get the throne.

On Jennah's surname- the only time we've heard her family named, it was as the 'Salmaic Dynasty' in SoS. '-ic' possibly being the key suffix- it doesn't sound like they've taken Salma as a surname, just chosen her as the defining ancestor of their lineage.

As far as I'm aware, the Krytan system doesn't use the term (or structure) 'house'. Unless I'm missing something somewhere, that's limited to the Kurzicks off in Cantha.

[Castigator.3470]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:In more seriousness, I'm surprised no one brought up our fabled Krytan family of Oswald Thorn, his brother Ewan Thorn, and his son Edrick Thorn. Though supposedly the Thorn line was killed off... The crown given to Oz's cousin... maybe his cousin was also a Thorn? But so far, Thorn is the only royal surname we actually have as far as I remember.

If the Tyrian humans function like the slavic, or islamic dynasties, then yes, they are named after a prominent ancestor.For instance, the House Kotromanić traces their ancestry back to Kotroman, who is mentioned in an old chronicle in Dubrovnik as Kotroman the Goth, but not much is known about him besides the name.House Premyslovci is named after the legendary Premysl the Ploughman, who married the daughter of vojvode Krok. This legend ties back to the time of forefather czech, who is seen as the legendary father to the czech people.Though Doric himself, would likely not refer to himself as Doric of House Doric, since he established it to begin with, but refer to one of his ancestors, provided he knows of a prominent ancestor. Otherwies he could use a patronym, which is still custom in russia.

[Kovac.4372]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@"Kovac.4372" said:

For example in Elona we have Turai Ossa, founder of the Kournan dynasty and people see his last name as "Ossa" and shrug and don't think twice about it. Except I don't remember where "Ossa" comes from, if it's been explained at all.

It would be more appropriate to name the dynasty "House of Turai" or "of Kourna" than just slapping Ossa as the surname.From what we've heard, Ossa is the surname that Turai was born with. He didn't start out (as far as we know) as royalty or the like, so tracing the origin of his surname probably wouldn't be any easier for him than for any other commoner, but I wouldn't say his decision not to set it aside is 'just slapping it on'.

For Turai Ossa, yes, he was born with it or got it in his life, doesn't matter. HE can keep it. But his descendants shouldn't. There is no reason why Varesh would be Varesh Ossa. That's what I mean by just slapping it on.

A real world example would be Ragnar Lothbrok ... HE would be Lothbrok, but that would not become the family name. In the TV show Vikings, they just slap it on to his sons anyway - Bjorn Lothbrok, from example. When it should be Bjorn Ragnarson, as is the custom.

We in the western world are accustomed to the name-surname format ... but it doesn't work like that in the GW setting, and it shouldn't, because it didn't work like that in the real world as well up until relatively recent history.

So while Turai would be Turai Ossa ... Varesh would be Varesh of House Turai (or something similar)

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:As far as I'm aware, the Krytan system doesn't use the term (or structure) 'house'. Unless I'm missing something somewhere, that's limited to the Kurzicks off in Cantha.

It doesn't have to have the term "House" in use like it does for the Kurzicks. When talking about royal families they can all be referred to as "Houses".

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Kovac.4372 said:

We in the western world are accustomed to the name-surname format ... but it doesn't work like that in the GW setting, and it shouldn't, because it didn't work like that in the real world as well up until relatively recent history.

As far as we've seen, though, it does. Varesh Ossa is an Ossa because her ancestor Turai was an Ossa. Logan Thackery is a Thackery because his ancestor Kieran was a Thackery. Lawson Marriner is a Marriner because that's the name his grandfather Cobiah took. Whether it's an anachronism or not (and there's an argument to be had whether the concept of social anachronisms can even apply to fantasy settings), it is how ANet has established human cultures work, at least in the cases where we can trace descent between two individuals with known surnames. There aren't many examples, granted, but surnames aren't used for the vast majority of major human characters.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Kovac.4372 said:We in the western world are accustomed to the name-surname format ... but it doesn't work like that in the GW setting, and it shouldn't, because it didn't work like that in the real world as well up until relatively recent history.

Whether it is a recent thing for us or not isn't really relevant. As Aaron points out, we actually do see dozens of examples of surnames passing down among humans from Tyria and Elona. On top of the Ossas and the Thackerays, we also see the descendants of four henchmen from Prophecies in DR with said henchmen's last names.

Norn names function much like Nordic names except that which parent their named after is after the more famous, not necessarily the father. Hence Braham Eirsson. Only when they get a tale of their own do they chose their own name - Braham honestly could have picked a new name by now, with the death of Mordremoth and the cracking of the tooth.

AFAIK, aside from Kurzick houses which the main family use as a surname, we don't see Canthan surnames used over generations.

[Kovac.4372]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Kovac.4372 said:

We in the western world are accustomed to the name-surname format ... but it doesn't work like that in the GW setting, and it shouldn't, because it didn't work like that in the real world as well up until relatively recent history.

Varesh Ossa is an Ossa because her ancestor Turai was an Ossa. Logan Thackery is a Thackery because his ancestor Kieran was a Thackery. Lawson Marriner is a Marriner because that's the name his grandfather Cobiah took.

I thought I explained the Varesh situation perfectly with the Bjorn Lothbrok example.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Whether it is a recent thing for us or not isn't really relevant. As Aaron points out, we actually do see dozens of examples of surnames passing down among humans from Tyria and Elona. On top of the Ossas and the Thackerays, we also see the descendants of four henchmen from Prophecies in DR with said henchmen's last names.

The "Ossa" dynasty are royals, higher nobility. The others you mentioned are commoner names.

In medieval Europe we know what the naming rules were for nobility, but for commoners there were no rules at all. There were many ways one could get a surname, but that surname wouldn't always stick throughout the generations. This is because there was poor record keeping for the most part, and unless you were part of a well to do family, it was unlikely you'd keep a family tree and have the same surname your ancestor 5 generations ago had, if he had any.

It wasn't until 1804 with the Napoleonic Code that record keeping improved and everyone had to start keeping to family names.

So if we were to draw parallels into Tyria, it seems the only reason some characters of the same family line have the same surname is to notify the player who that character is and where they come from. Realistically it is very unlikely we'd see Thackerays in GW2 if there were Thackerays in GW1 ... or at least they wouldn't be the same family line.

....

But assuming there is advanced record keeping in Tyria, that would STILL not mean that same naming rules applied to both royalty/nobility and commoners ... and this thread is about discussing the royal family names. Thackerays and the like don't fall into this category.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Bjorn Lothbrok is a pretty poor example since Bordic names are typically very different than other European naming style, royalty or not. And same with generally drawing parallels to our own history; ArenaNet may take inspiration from here and there, but they're not going to (and certainly didn't) mirror Tyria's history to Earth's history. One extreme parallel would be sewer systems, which have existed in Tyria and Cantha for centuries, yet for us they didn't become a common thing until the mid 1800s.

We know for a fact that Kurzicks, at the very least, had advanced record keeping of family names per this. That said, there is no rule to say that commoners-turned-royalty would go by different rules.

And it should be noted that, technically, the Ossa family were not royalty. Not after Turai's son, Kunai Ossa, at least, as the three provinces divided again and the Ossa line was "degraded" from the title of King to the title of Warmarshal. Two generations of royalty probably wouldn't affect how a family line that began as commoners and ended as nobility would treat their family name. Especially since proclaiming ties to being an Ossa was, until Joko's rise, a bit of an honor. People would want to show they're related to the King of United Elona that overcame the evil lich lord that threatened the world as they knew it.

[Castigator.3470]

@"Kovac.4372" said:It wasn't until 1804 with the Napoleonic Code that record keeping improved and everyone had to start keeping to family names.

Surnames existed well before the 1800s. They go as far back as ancient rome.As for germany, try 1500s, where the common man started using surnames, likely because the population had expanded so much. The nobility had already been using their house names for much longer. It's more that the Corsican general decided to keep track of what already existed for hundreds of years.

[Athrenn.9468]

@"Kovac.4372" said:We know that Barradin is the first name of the duke, so the GW1 location "Barradin's Estate" isn't really the name of the location, just a decription. We also don't know what territory his duchy might hold, it is more likely it is simply a titular title (no de jure lands associated).

How do we know that Barradin isn't the duke's surname? There's also a Barradin Family Urn and a Barradin Family Crest, not "Barradin's Family" but The Barradin Family. Althea's full name could have been Lady Althea Barradin and perhaps we've just never been told the duke's first name.

[Reusterr.6982]

@Athrenn.9468 said:

@"Kovac.4372" said:We know that Barradin is the first name of the duke, so the GW1 location "Barradin's Estate" isn't really the name of the location, just a decription. We also don't know what territory his duchy might hold, it is more likely it is simply a titular title (no de jure lands associated).

How do we know that Barradin isn't the duke's surname? There's also a

Barradin Family Urn

and a

Barradin Family Crest

, not "Barradin's Family" but

The

Barradin Family. Althea's full name could have been Lady Althea Barradin and perhaps we've just never been told the duke's first name.

it does sound more like a last name.

[Castigator.3470]

@"Reusterr.6982" said:it does sound more like a last name.

Could be both, something like Barradin VIII Barradinić. Ascalon did have people named Labowski.