SkyShroud.2865 Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 @"Swagger.1459" said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person and likewise, that doesn't reflect very well about your argument if you have to resolve to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @SkyShroud.2865 said:@"Swagger.1459" said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 And if any of you have a problem with what I’ve said then you are free to take it up with the devs and MO...“Hi,We made a commitment to you in March 2012 that we’d fund GW2 live development through non-pay-to-win microtransactions. We try different ideas, but we always hold true to that commitment.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 @Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/amp/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamurabi.7890 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @"Swagger.1459" said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014That was season 2, the tournament of win trading by JQ and TC. Most of us not in T1 enjoyed this season because it was directly related to Season 1, which was the tournament of Buygate. They wouldn't be called Buygate if their server didn't Pay to Win.We've never had in NA a tournament that actually meant anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 @Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic... Yes, rng, loot boxes, power advantages and gambling... There are many topics to the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 @Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. See, discrediting again.Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right?And btw, the article also wrote about "normalizing" behavior for gambling, you too are already normalized to p2w since you don't even recognize it as p2w.I am not sure if article is helping your arguments or making it look worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. See, discrediting again.Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right?No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.“With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 @Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. See, discrediting again.Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right?No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.“With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol.But how is that related to the article before your's?The only reason they call out loot box on the previous article is because of the RNG nature. The loot boxes has RNG within it, it is same as the gambling system with RNG. It is not because they cares bout p2w, don't use make up laws for your convenience, seriously. If they put p2w without RNG, they won't be violating the gambling regulation.I am very sensitive to this because I trade, I keep up with regulations and regulations are precise and sensitive in their wordings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. See, discrediting again.Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right?No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.“With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol.But how is that related to the article before your's?All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 @Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. See, discrediting again.Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right?No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.“With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol.But how is that related to the article before your's?All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @Israel.7056 said:@"ReaverKane.7598" said:What competitive advantage?Seriously, illustrate where being in a T1 server (assuming you're not blocked by the "server full" algorythm).Who said anything about t1? I didn't. More semi clever moving of the goal posts. Now it's not just winning a matchup but winning the t1 matchup. Clever.The competitive advantages one can get from transferring are myriad and diverse and so appeal differently to different players. For some it's access to an easier matchup or in many cases to an almost guaranteed win, that's the most obvious form of pay to win. But sometimes it's to be paired with guilds they'd rather fight with than against or it's access to better pugs so they can run open and demolish everything in their path every time they play. Sometimes it's to have access to 24/7 coverage so they can k train most of the day. There's something for everyone.Well, if access to the game is P2W, then all games are P2W. I mentioned T1 servers because those are the ones that usually are more attractive in terms of winning or not. Not as a way to "move the goalpost", because you never set a goalpost. But simply looking to what would be the best case scenario.Well, its called what it is... It's a Moderation Fee, a cost imposed on an action that would otherwise be free if it wasn't likely to be abused to prevent such abuse.Lol lovely euphemistic language. It's a fee that siphons money from players when they transfer around. An ingenious way of taxing players for their willingness to pay to win.Syphons... That's alarmistic language. It is a moderating fee, that's what's called. I take it you're American, probably, and unused to free health care, that's what a lot of systems use to prevent people from abusing the system and overtaxing it, they charge a symbolic fee that deters abuse. Exactly the same as this.Transfers, free or paid, are going to be abused no matter what I don't know how anyone could be so naive as to think otherwise and I doubt they were so naive as to think otherwise. There's no price some people won't pay to win.Apparently you don't understand the difference between deterrence and prevention. So basically you prove yourself incompetent in a argument about semantics.If they had been serious about creating a competitive environment they wouldn't have allowed transfers in the first place and they would have moved guilds around manually to try to fill coverage gaps. But that would've taken time and players would've made a big fuss over the imposition and I think they also just realized that they could make a lot more money off paid transfers. Good for them.Yes, and prevent players from joining their friends in what's a social game. And ostracise guilds by moving them out of their communities manually. You're a freaking genius mate! I'd avoid a job in game development if i was you.If gamers weren't lazy bastards, nothing in the server transfer system would entail any kind of advantage, since ideally we'd be spread even. The only reason there's any apparent advantage, which isn't one by the way, is because players are lazy and will cluster on the winning team, instead of carrying their server to victory.It's not an issue of laziness it's an issue of efficiency and humans are very good at identifying efficient paths to victory. Why work hard to win when you can just pay to transfer to win?You say efficient, i say lazy. Pretty much the same. Lazy people are best at identifying the most effective paths, because they're lazy. Not a bad thing, just how the world is.You can't call it P2W, since it was never designed to give an advantage, that advantage is entirely created by the community, and the devs are actively working on ending that advantage, actually.It doesn't matter what it was intended to do. What matters is what it does. Perhaps they were foolish enough to think that people wouldn't pay money just to win easy. I tend to think they're much smarter than that and they just realized an easy way to monetize WvW players.No, it matters, you can't call something Pay to Win if it wasn't designed to be so. You can call it accidentally pay to win. Which it isn't since they've long ago removed all direct advantages to being on a winning server.Also, being on a T1 server brings no inherent advantage at this point. Also, this day and age, being on the #1 server is no different from being in the #12 server in terms of bling, prestige or any other metric. You might have more access to zergs, or you might just have better access to a larger queue and wait times for access to the content.I never said anything about t1. This is more clever moving of the goal posts.You never set a goalpost. You never explained how people "won"... So people you keep accusing of "moving the goalpost" are just trying to figure out how anyone could win at WvW by transfering. And going to a T1 server is probably the only even remotely close to being considered a "win".Although to be frank t1 history is mostly the story of one particularly infamous server that overstacked hard early on and continues to reap the benefits of that to this day. I should know I was there for almost three years.In the US. In EU the overstacked server got to #1 as a medium sized server, then people started gathering on that server, and then toxicity came because the original guilds were getting overrun by others, and eventually most people left that server.Again the question of what one actually wins for winning is not relevant to this discussion. What matters is that one can pay to win.What?If you can't define "winning" you can't say it's pay to win, because you have to establish what winning consists in order to prove it's pay to win. Because if you don't win, it's not pay to win, it's pay to transfer from servers. And so far... And again, you failed to establish what winning is. You basically have no argument, besides a edgewise, and personal interpretation of a very loose term.I don't really see that you have an argument honestly, you haven't made any compelling objections here although presumably you think you have.Well, here's the thing. One of us is wrong, and spamming this thread with the same strawman arguments without even being able to establish a definition or the mechanisms by which you'd constitute "winning" which is pretty much key to your whole argument.Basically your whole argument is comparable to accusing someone of murder without even being able to demonstrate someone died.That said, i'm done "feeding the troll", time to lay you on your belly and pat your back so you can burp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. See, discrediting again.Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right?No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.“With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol.But how is that related to the article before your's?All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings.The confusion is on your part…ME...“There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices”INFO FROM SITE...“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics"EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”...‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS…“Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”"buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”...YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @Vayne.8563 said:@Israel.7056 said:@Vayne.8563 said:Many people can call it what they want. I personally think you're being far too flippant about this. If your definition doesn't capture all the ways in which a phrase is used or in this case the principle characteristics of what is meant by a phrase it's not a very good definition.I believe the OP's definition is far more all encompassing because it captures the principle characteristics of what people mean when they call a game "pay to win."But saving time is very very different from buying power directly.Yes it is and yet it's something that many people (including many of the 'nays' in this thread) seem to see as being part of "pay to win" particularly when the amount of time saved becomes significant in human terms. Saves five minutes? Probably not. Saves thousands of hours? Almost certainly. Everyone I tell that Aion story to agrees with me that it was pay to win and yet all it really amounted to was the other guy saving himself years of time grinding and playing the rng lottery. I think this is because humans recognize that for humans individual time is a form of finite resource and because humans understand time preferences when it comes to obtaining things.What I'm trying to get you to see is that your definition is inadequate because it doesn't properly capture all the ways in which the term is used. "Pay to win" doesn't always involve a direct increase in "personal power" nor does it even necessarily involve a cash shop purchase.When this game launched, Anet said directly PvP was meant to be competitive and on an even footing. WvW was never supposed to be directly 1v1 competitive. That's not how it was designed.Yeah but they didn't detail exactly how uncompetitive it was going to be did they? They left that part vague. And they have wavered on this quite a bit with their development strategies and messaging over the years wouldn't you say?Imagine if they would've originally marketed WvW as "a large scale 24/7 battle where north american players will spend hours fighting hard to get things upgraded only to lose them every single night to players from around the globe with little to no interference due to server stacking and mass transfers, so you better be on the stacked servers if you want to win!!!"Extremely honest but doesn't sound so great.I spent a very long time in TC, which was in Tier 1, against Blackgate and Jade Quarry and we NEVER could field the numbers to fight those guys. Not ever. But not once, ever, did that affect my ability to play WvW as an individual. When I run 1v1 into people, I went about 50/50. You could argue you level faster by being on a stronger server, but how much faster? How much difference? How amorphous is this perceived difference? How much time do you save?Again I think your focus is simply too narrow and individualistic. What those two servers did was to shift the playing field with mass transfers and bought coverage. It's like tilting the proverbial board instead of biasing the results in favor of one person you bias the results in favor of an entire team. You may not have personally cared about winning but I can guarantee you there were many people on my server who did and we beat you guys I think almost every single week for years because of what we did early on with buying coverage. Ultimately we tilted the board so hard in our favor during seasons that it completely compromised the integrity of the game in many people's eyes which is one of the main reasons why my old server in particular is still so widely hated. All I'm trying to get you to see is that there's more ways to bias the results of a game than just "personal power."Even if you saved the gold to buy the transfers, which anyone could do, how much time would you have saved/spent?I have no idea I imagine that would vary depending on the individual. But that's not really the point here. The point is that saving time can be considered pay to win under the right circumstances. I'm trying to show you that your definition doesn't encompass all the ways in which games can be manipulated and/or biased.I'm not sure how you can't see the difference between direct personal power, winning a match because you can buy more potions than someone else, or maybe getting to max level a bit faster because you can buy an XP buff. People weren't calling XP buffs pay to win, so why is taking a bit longer to max out your WvW masteries p2w? People keep shifting the bar. They move it further and further away from the original definition.I absolutely see a difference between those two things but I also think it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges due to the structure of GW2 where there's a level cap and it's easy to get to.So imagine if GW2 had no hard level cap just like a soft cap and imagine if levels past soft cap offered progressively greater stats so that some numbers of levels above soft cap made you a god to everyone below you and then imagine if players could buy xp buffs in the cash shop that would significantly reduce the time it took to level once they got past soft cap but they cost 40 dollars a piece and they could expire so they had to be purchased at some regular interval. Wouldn't you consider that a pay to win scenario?Which waters down what it was intended to mean and therefore makes the phrase more and more meaningless.Yeah you've said this before and perhaps there's some truth to it. But in my view the way words are used over time can change and as different developers find different methods to sell competitive advantages for money so too must the term be allowed to expand to account for all those methods.If you're going to take the word and repurpose it, what word can be used to mean what it originally meant. Originally the term was meant to differentitate legit games from not legit games. Games that sold power directly that didn't really allow people to get that same sort of power just by playing in anything resembling reasonable amount of time. You need a new word for what you're saying because as the defintion "evolves" the word loses it's original function with nothing to replace it. Guild Wars 2 is no Maple Story. It's not a PWI game. It's not selling power in the cash shop. Could you argue that technically you can get an advantage with an experience buff? Sure you can. That's absolutely an advantage. But it's a convenience advantage. It gets you somewhere a bit faster. That's the matter of degree. Calling a game that has such convenience items pay to win means the games that are "really" pay to win can now get away with it.By the definitions some people are attempting you use, I could make an argument for every single MMO on the market being pay to win. I could go into any MMO, change the definition and start labeling. But we all know that ESO and WOW and FF XIV are legit MMOs. I believe most of us know that Guild Wars 2 is a legit MMO. It's not pay to win in the way we used to say games were paid to win.And once you make that change in definition, what do you call the games that force you to pay to play? How are you going to differentiate them from the legit games? Sure language evolves. I used to edit for a living. But that doesn't change the fact that the evolution of language isn't always helpful to communication in general, and terms like pay to win were created to serve a specific purpose. You might as well give up using the term altogether if you're going to move the bar every single time you have to pay money to a game for any reason.We have people that claim that buying expansions in a buy to play game is pay to win. Where does it end? How far do you push the bar? What value is left to the term once you push that bar. Create another word, if you want, or complain about the situation without using a term that has other meanings that completely invalidates the argument for at least a percentage of the populous. I see all current business models for games as "legit." As long as people are voluntarily spending their money I think it's totally fine. The only time I would take issue with a company over their business model would be if they were intentionally misrepresenting their business model to their customers. But if people know what they're getting into going in and they still choose to spend their money then I think that's perfectly legit.I just fundamentally agree with the ops definition and I value logical consistency so I have to agree with his initial proposition about paid transfers. I suppose one could try to split the different variants of "pay to win" into separate more specific terms like "pay for statistical power" and "pay for significantly greater likelihood of team victory" and "pay for gigantic efficiency boost" things like that. Dunno if they would catch on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 BTW, "winning doesn't matter" is not a fact. It's simply a subjective opinion. I also hold it as a very low value, but some in this thread are trying to enforce this belief in spite of what the developers literally designed the game mode for. By this logic, why shouldn't I go into Keep and waste all the supply on rams in the keep? Why shouldn't I follow commanders and dump useless siege? It doesn't matter anyways, in this version of the game I made up. It's a little thing called respect. Yes, I think PPT is dumb, and I may even tell people that, but I shouldn't go out and ruin their gameplay if they go out and play the game as it was intended, and God forbid, actually want to preserve it. I'll throw out an actual fact. There are some people who still believe it's real. And I don't see why their opinion counts less than what people on a forum think. If you get run over by 50 people, most people would not regard that as "winning" on their part. But, the game does.... No matter what people think, you are dead and have to be res'd or respawned. No amount of goodwill can change that.But of course, if you want to move the goalposts for fun (heh, is this the new argument meta?) then I would love to argue from the less material and more subjective concept of the WvW experience. Of course, even with that, there's quite a few concrete facts of guilds mass transferring and bandwagoning; which is a lot of effort for achieving something that doesn't matter. But it is more concrete than anything else that's being tossed out. Why do people escape dead tiers, if the score doesn't matter? Unless you assume all these people are stupid.... well actually I would not argue with you on that. Oh btw, I'm helping a friend transfer, and now I'm not p2w'ing. Probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 @Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. See, discrediting again.Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right?No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.“With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol.But how is that related to the article before your's?All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings.The confusion is on your part…ME...“There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices”INFO FROM SITE...“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics"EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”...‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS…“Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”"buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”...YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments.Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages.Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng""a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbcKeyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng"Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really?I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long no RNG is involved using cash, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation.Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. See, discrediting again.Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right?No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.“With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol.But how is that related to the article before your's?All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings.The confusion is on your part…ME...“There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices”INFO FROM SITE...“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics"EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”...‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS…“Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”"buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”...YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments.Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages.Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng""a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbcKeyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng"Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really?I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long no RNG is involved using cash, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation.Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term?I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”.Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities...Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackle various issues and topics...1-RNG lootboxes.2- Pay to win items.3- Gambling Issues. What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”.Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 @Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. See, discrediting again.Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right?No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.“With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol.But how is that related to the article before your's?All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings.The confusion is on your part…ME...“There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices”INFO FROM SITE...“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics"EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”...‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS…“Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”"buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”...YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments.Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages.Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng""a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbcKeyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng"Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really?I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long no RNG is involved using cash, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation.Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term?I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”.Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities...Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics...1-RNG lootboxes.2- Pay to win items.3- Gambling Issues. What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”.Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler.The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting.Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w.Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking.Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w?Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@Swagger.1459 said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person.The term “pay to win” is known among the gaming community as buying power advantages over those that didn’t. Period. YOU are the distorting the meaning by injecting “intangible assets” to the term “pay to win”...Anet created server transfers so in essence YOU are implying, and others have stated, that Anet created a means to scam players of money through a game mechanic. Wrong.You want to get technical with “pay to win”? There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices and gambling addictions in games... They are trying to prevent game companies from hooking, or scamming, players into buying power/gear/stat... advantages only sold via cash shops... So you throwing around the term “pay to win” here automatically has a negative tone and connotation, whether you understand or not. You know, I know I will get this much rejection in a gw2 bias but I do also want to see how much rejection is that.Furthermore, if you put this in a non-gw2 bias forums, people will agree gw2 too has p2w elements. So, which community are you referring to?You mean this one? Read the comment about gw2 is technically p2w.https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/8dnmjx/mmorpg_not_p2w_list/I already say before, it isn't about how much advantage you can get, it is about the very fact that you can even gain advantage itself is considered as p2w. To you, all those advantages are insignificant therefore you rule p2w out. Even If I did say you can buy items via monetary means, you will argue it as low gear cap because to you, you not looking at advantage, you are looking at literally "win". Coincidentally, even in heavy p2w games, even if you do get a so-called "win" gears, it doesn't mean you the only one that has it so your argument is pretty weak at this point, afterall, you need to actually win right? I mean draw doesn't count. You see how weak your definition is? If I change the perspective even just a little, your definition break apart.The thing is no one is able to show me a weakness in my definition. If you can show me how spending actually resulted in disadvantage over other players, then you can break my definition. I say you are right.You claim there are lawmakers on p2w, please point us the source. That is a very big claim. I do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship but to say they care about p2w? really? Show me the source of your claims.Start learning about this topic...https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/9201386Maybe you need to actually read? I did say " do know there are some talks about RNG and gambling relationship" but it doesn't nesscary means they care about "p2w". They only care about RNG that looks like gambling because that is a grey area since it can overlap online gambling regulation, afterall, it involve money and rng too. That is a very big difference you know?You tweaking logic really hard here now.You should spend more time reading and educating yourself on this pay to win topic. See, discrediting again.Not to forget, you skip most part of the post in my other reply. You can't really hold up a proper argument, right?No, you are just not paying attention or bothering to read... https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/266264-ea-admits-defeat-unlocks-battlefront-2-heroes-removes-pay-win-mechanics“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics, with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.“With these new updates, which started going live this week, the entire progression process has been revamped. Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”Here the thing, it even write "significant" and "advantage". But, if it isn't "significant", then, they wouldn't have removed it. Lol.But how is that related to the article before your's?All you are doing is distorting the term “pay to win” here. Spend more time reading so you can actually understand this topic, and what you are implying by throwing around the “pay to win” label. I edited the post because as I post, I find out that you are easily confused over actual wordings.The confusion is on your part…ME...“There are lawmakers in countries who are trying to stop cash store pay to win practices”INFO FROM SITE...“The problems started when EA decided to create an alternate revenue stream for itself based solely on loot crates and pay-to-win mechanics"EA SOLD ITEMS (Starcards) ONLY AVAILABLE BY CASH THAT GAVE “access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”...‘with players who purchased loot crates with real money gaining a significant advantage over those who opted to just play the game.’EA CHANGED THE CASH ONLY “PAY TO WIN” STARCARDS…“Star Cards, which give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities will only be earned through gameplay”"buffs, weapons, or capabilities" EARNED THROUGH GAMEPLAY not cash shop “pay to win”...YOU are distorting the phrase "pay to win". Lawmakers are not trying to change mmos so they don't have server transfers for "intangible assets". Lawmakers are trying to regulate mmos selling "access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities" only obtainable through a cash purchase. Selectively quoting article convenience for you is the problem with your arguments.Of particular focus in this uproar has been the "loot box" mechanism. In exchange for paid crystals or for credits earned during game play, players can buy "crates" that randomly grant advantages.Your own source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/pay-to-win-gaming-features-look-like-gambling/9201386Keyword: "Randomly" aka "gambling" aka "rng""a Star Wars themed online casino designed to lure kids into spending money."Your own source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/22/from-belgium-to-hawaii-potential-battlefront-2-loot-box-legislation-would-be-complicated/#6e966da77cbcKeyword: "online casino designed" aka "gambling" aka "rng"Yet again, you conveniently interpreting the laws in your own way to suit your argument. Really?I am saying this once again. In the eyes of laws, as long no RNG is involved using cash, you are not running a casino like game, you do not require a gambling license to function, you do not require players to be at approved age. This doesn't say anything about p2w against the law or does the lawmakers want to regulate the p2w market. EA game simply infringed existing regulation or should I more precisely say, a grey area of gambling regulation.Furthermore, back at your own definition, you still have yet to reply my other posts, can you stop beating about the bush and come to term?I don’t know if the English used could be plainer or simpler... “Pay to win” is considered items you can only get through CASH that “give access to various buffs, weapons, or capabilities”.Paying for a server transfer does not give your characters access to personal stat buffs, special weapons or special capabilities...Also, lawmakers are attempting to tackling various issues and topics...1-RNG lootboxes.2- Pay to win items.3- Gambling Issues. What you need to do is start doing your own research on google to inform yourself of the issues being raised. Yes, there are lawmakers who are trying to regulate online gaming to address gaming addiction, gambling addition and to counter the sense that online gamers, particularly younger children and teens, must spend cash to make sure their special character can progress or keep a competitive advantage... aka “pay to win”.Read and absorb the words of others out there talking about the issues. It will help you understand what “pay to win” actually means outside of what you think it means, or what you are trying to apply the phrase to. I have the same opinion on you. I don't know how english can be any simpler.The article did not once define what p2w is. They only wrote what they think is p2w in that game. Whatever you wrote is your own definition, not what wrote on the article which is why you gave such a micro quoting.Again, they did not care about p2w. What they are concern of is the rng aspect of p2w.Lastly, again, I ask you to reply my post which question about your p2w. Let me rephrase it in the way I understood your thinking.Why do you not see items and options which can provide an advantage even if it is insignificant one, obtainable via monetary means (even if it can be grinded), a non p2w?Or maybe I should ask, why you don't even see it as a form of advantage?Look up the topic and educate yourself. Read and absorb various articles on the matter to gain a clear understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 @SkyShroud.2865 said:@"Swagger.1459" said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person and likewise, that doesn't reflect very well about your argument if you have to resolve to this.Well no, because it's not. You're complaining about this, well then 80 level boosts (which many games have now) should be considered pay to win, because in order to do well in WvW you have to be level 80 and have everything unlocked. You can get to 80 instantly on some people, but you have play through the game to get to 80 on another. Pretty sure most 80s will be most 40th level characters, thus you could call the 80th level boost, which is just a shortcut, a pay to win mechanic, but most don't. Instead we're calling a server transfer a mechanic.And you're not winning instantly by that mechanic. You can't just open your wallet and instantly win. No matter what server you're on. The biggest, most dominant servers are closed anyway and have been for ages. You can't transfer to Blackgate for example, so I don't know how you think pay to win applies in this case.Everyone has to level their own character up. Some people may go faster, but they're not going instantly or even much faster. Pay to win simply has a different definition than you're using to most people. That's why no one has ever brought this up before. Add to this the fact that the people MOST aggrieved by free server transfers would be the WvW crowd. The very playerbase you're claiming is pay to win if you charge for server transfers. In this particular instance the WvW playerbase actually wants paid server transfers to prevent cheating and spying and instant band wagon hopping which would destroy WvW altogether. Nope, not pay to win. Nothing you can do instantly by paying. Your side winning has very little to do with the game over all. At one time it had almost nothing to do with it, now you'll get some pips faster, but that's it. How anyone can say this is pay to win is beyond me and if it was, we'd have seen this argument long before now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamurabi.7890 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 @Vayne.8563 said:@SkyShroud.2865 said:@"Swagger.1459" said:This is the last time winning meant something...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Spring_Tournament_2014We are now in 2018. The system is changing anyway and servers are going away. This thread is moot, and nothing except an unnecessary gripe and postering to paint Anet as some shady game company that offers transfers to “siphon” money for players... And no, sorry, Anet doesn’t get rich off of wvw players transferring... everything pve side creates the greatest portion of income. Just because along the way some players used the server transfer option as a way to stack servers doesn’t equate to “pay to win”... you “win” nothing now, there is no “super cool heroes” tournament competition coded into the game where players claim themselves the ultimate champion. Sure, if you’re the type of person who needs to feel special about being #1 in a match up then more power to ya... But the reward systems added makes sure that all players, regardless of place, get rewarded. Just because some of you want to distort what the phrase “pay to win” means, doesn’t mean that distortion is true... It’s silly to try to get overly technical and inject some philosophical meanings to things, and it’s essentially an effort to make Anet look bad.Let me know when I can buy better gear stats than ascended quality on the gemstone, and items that keep my character from dying, so I can have clear power advantages by forking over cash... Then we can have this “pay to win” argument... Sad. Your argument is fixated only on tangible assets. However, my definition include intangible assets. I don't think it don't make sense we don't see eye to eye.Also, you are using fallacy to discredit the topic, that is unbecoming of a person and likewise, that doesn't reflect very well about your argument if you have to resolve to this.Well no, because it's not. You're complaining about this, well then 80 level boosts (which many games have now) should be considered pay to win, because in order to do well in WvW you have to be level 80 and have everything unlocked. You can get to 80 instantly on some people, but you have play through the game to get to 80 on another. Pretty sure most 80s will be most 40th level characters, thus you could call the 80th level boost, which is just a shortcut, a pay to win mechanic, but most don't. Instead we're calling a server transfer a mechanic.And you're not winning instantly by that mechanic. You can't just open your wallet and instantly win. No matter what server you're on. The biggest, most dominant servers are closed anyway and have been for ages. You can't transfer to Blackgate for example, so I don't know how you think pay to win applies in this case.Everyone has to level their own character up. Some people may go faster, but they're not going instantly or even much faster. Pay to win simply has a different definition than you're using to most people. That's why no one has ever brought this up before. Add to this the fact that the people MOST aggrieved by free server transfers would be the WvW crowd. The very playerbase you're claiming is pay to win if you charge for server transfers. In this particular instance the WvW playerbase actually wants paid server transfers to prevent cheating and spying and instant band wagon hopping which would destroy WvW altogether. Nope, not pay to win. Nothing you can do instantly by paying. Your side winning has very little to do with the game over all. At one time it had almost nothing to do with it, now you'll get some pips faster, but that's it. How anyone can say this is pay to win is beyond me and if it was, we'd have seen this argument long before now.How can you instantly get a 50 player guild made up of veterans who play WvW to cover your server's OCX time zone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 @"Vayne.8563" said:And you're not winning instantly by that mechanic. You can't just open your wallet and instantly win. No matter what server you're on. Does the competitive advantage have to be a 100 percent guarantee of victory or can it just be a significantly increased chance of victory than would otherwise have been the case?Let's say I decide to pay to transfer from a server that's currently losing most of its matchups to a server that's currently dominating almost all of its matchups. I haven't bought a 100 percent chance of victory but I have bought a much greater chance of victory than I had beforehand.I suspect, based on the stance you've taken thus far, that you will say something like "well your team may win but you don't individually win." Am I correct in my assumption? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate.3927 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 @Israel.7056 said:@"Vayne.8563" said:And you're not winning instantly by that mechanic. You can't just open your wallet and instantly win. No matter what server you're on. Does the competitive advantage have to be a 100 percent guarantee of victory or can it just be a significantly increased chance of victory than would otherwise have been the case?Let's say I decide to pay to transfer from a server that's currently losing most of its matchups to a server that's currently dominating almost all of its matchups. I haven't bought a 100 percent chance of victory but I have bought a much greater chance of victory than I had beforehand.I suspect, based on the stance you've taken thus far, that you will say something like "well your team may win but you don't individually win." Am I correct in my assumption?I'm not the person you're quoting, but I'm on the side that feels paid server transfers is not P2W. If you can reach T1 and stay there the only thing you will get is boredom since no 1 and 2 will always fight each other and it's just the 3rd server rotating and probably not being able to match no 1 and 2 in terms of raw numbers. So really its a 1v1 fight forever with the third server acting as a minor distraction. For me winning is about having fun. Whether I win/lose the fight as long as I had fun, that is winning. So it's preferable for my server to move up and down and get varied matchups from week to week. It doesn't really matter where you/your server are officially ranked if you're just bored the entire time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.