Mantras

[drgast.1469]

I don't have the hate for them that others seem to, but they need some work. I ran through the story on my Soulbeast first and playing my FB now I'm not sure why the mantras have such long inductions. They automatically effect allies, compared to the SB requiring a trait to do so, but other than that they are almost identical in mechanic. Multiple charges that recharge. The main difference seems to be that mantras last charge have a more powerful version. The penalty (longer recharge + induction) aren't worth using it, however (in PvE at least - I can see PvP how it might be for burst etc).

Suggestions:-Stoic Demeanor -> Leave as is, but add on -> Mantras now give boons when activated (Solace - Protection, Lore - Vigor, Potence - Swiftness, Flame - Retaliation, Truth - Fury, Liberation - Resistance

This way if you combine Stoic Demeanor and Weighty Terms you get reduced recharge and a _little _bit more incentive to use them in combat and not just before.

-Another option is to add to the trait to reduce induction time by 33% or something to make it not such a burden in combat

[Ghotistyx.6942]

Don't know why you're comparing things that are in no way, implied or otherwise, similar.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't see a problem with how they currently work ... it's a tried and tested mechanic. It makes little sense to say Mantras don't work properly at this point.

I'm not sure that it even makes sense to change the part of the mechanics of Mantras that are obviously intended as well ... the induction time is there as a risk/reward. No, don't change it, that 'burden' is part of how Anet measures the overall efficacy of the skill family. Frankly, I love the way they work ... I get the choice to use them with much less restrictions than any other skill.

[Foxraging.1269]

I just dont think that youre using mantras correctly. You're supposed to activate them before combat, and then pace yourself so that you don't use up all of the ammo before it can recharge. Don't use the final charge unless it's an emergency. This way you'll have a steady on demand healing burst.

I never have to reactivate the mantra again until I switch areas because I never use the 3rd charge.

[Xithryl.2807]

@Obtena.7952 said:the induction time is there as a risk/reward.

This is just not true, there is absolutely 0 risk in preparing the mantra's the risk/reward is using that final charge. You don't ever have to choose to activate a mantra or not, and if you are speaking about choosing to activate a mantra after you have already made the risk/reward choice of using the final charge while still in combat... Well that's just a bit much...

The biggest problem with them, is the fact that for the majority of players they are simply a headache, oh you fell into water recharge, oh you swapped maps recharge, oh you entered a new story instance recharge, oh you got DCd in the middle of a boss and now you are back recharge... Its dumb and I can only see them either removing the activation, or changing the way it works with the abilities to not suck.

[Obtena.7952]

There is no risk in preparing the Mantras? That's most definitely wrong. Maybe you think there is no risk in locking up your skill execution to bring up mantras, but there is.

Removing activation to overcome the zone resets, etc... is an overkill solution.

[Xithryl.2807]

@Obtena.7952 said:There is no risk in preparing the Mantras? That's most definitely wrong. Maybe you think there is no risk in locking up your skill execution to bring up mantras, but there is.

Removing activation to overcome the zone resets, etc... is an overkill solution.

First off, I don't see why it can't be both though perhaps I don't get PvP, but I'd imagine they can make it so that they don't reset on map resets with out breaking them in PvP

I can see the induction time being risk/reward if perhaps you couldn't activate them out of combat, but the fact that you are always going to have them up before engaging removes that risk/reward.... So again the risk/reward comes in to play when deciding if you will use that final charge or not THEN the induction time comes into play, you know if you haven't died in the 50 seconds or whatever it is for the CD to finish -_-

When engaging in PvP, can you not activate them before a match starts?

[Brutaly.6257]

@Xithryl.2807 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is no risk in preparing the Mantras? That's most definitely wrong. Maybe you think there is no risk in locking up your skill execution to bring up mantras, but there is.

Removing activation to overcome the zone resets, etc... is an overkill solution.

When engaging in PvP, can you not activate them before a match starts?

The issue is that if you prepe them before the match starts they are reset when the countdown starts. They also reset on death.

This means that on some maps you cant have the mantras up before you reach the center of the map even if you use quickness to prep them.

It is just awful.

When you log in the mantras should be charged

When you zone they should be charged

When you rez they should be charged.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see a problem with how they currently work ... it's a tried and tested mechanic. It makes little sense to say Mantras don't work properly at this point.

Except that have already changed them multiple times, last time being the PoF launch.

We have had the current version for less that a week, what part of that is tried and tested?

[Xithryl.2807]

@Brutaly.6257 said:The issue is that if you prepe them before the match starts they are reset when the countdown starts. They also reset on death.

I mean I guess in this case I can see where the claim of a risk/reward comes in to play, but I still don't agree with it. Because there is still no question on if you want the mantras active or not, the question then becomes if you take the skills at all or not, and no developer wants skills to be ignored due to poor design.

[juno.1840]

Charge the quickness mantra first and then use the quickness to charge your other mantras 50% faster! Kidding aside, the quickness mantra is amazing for pretty much everything.

I like the combat play-style of the mantras. I think the penalty of using the 3rd, and final charge is well thought out.

The only thing I would like is to have the mantra's to recharge automatically when out of combat if they are off cool-down.

[TrippyDroppings.6735]

Honestly I can't believe people find activating a skill so much of a pain. Switching a map, dying or even logging in of course you should have to prepare them. That is the whole idea. I guess I can kind of understand wanting map hopping to not effect it, but it really isn't a pain. The fact of the matter is, mantras are skills that you prepare before a fight and if you use the charges up mid-fight you then have a cooldown and the cast time to deal with, that is the mechanic of mantras and it should never change. If you don't like that then just don't use them. honestly. Quite frankly if the biggest complaint you have with them is, "I have to click it when I load into a map or die." Then they have done a great job.

Personally I wish their radius was at least 240-300 all around, but hey they aren't that hard to work with.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but everytime I see someone complaining that they have to activate their skill when referring to mantras it is just comical.

If Anet happens to read this, good job. I have been a Guardian main since release and wanted mantras for years now. Really happy with what we got.

As for the OP, I think gaining a boon on preparation would be nice, but I honestly don't think it is needed.

[Xithryl.2807]

@TrippyDroppings.6735 said:Honestly I can't believe people find activating a skill so much of a pain. Switching a map, dying or even logging in of course you should have to prepare them. That is the whole idea. I guess I can kind of understand wanting map hopping to not effect it, but it really isn't a pain. The fact of the matter is, mantras are skills that you prepare before a fight and if you use the charges up mid-fight you then have a cooldown and the cast time to deal with, that is the mechanic of mantras and it should never change. If you don't like that then just don't use them. honestly. Quite frankly if the biggest complaint you have with them is, "I have to click it when I load into a map or die." Then they have done a great job.

Don't forget that simply going too far into the water flips them off as well, and yes the map swapping is the biggest problem and the reason you understand that one, is probably because you see that as a bit tedious.. Well that basically sums up the activation as a whole, its just tedious, it barely adds anything to the game, and it for sure doesn't add anything worthwhile. Its just fluff at that point.

As for them doing a "great job" on these abilities, they have done well, but not great.. The fact that there are so many complaints around with how bad the activation time is proves that. While I'm totally against these mantras having a very dumb activation time that resets every time you change a dang map, plus a bunch of other ways... The bug that is setting off the final charge when you clearly have more charges is a bigger issue overall. Here's hoping they fix that sooner rather than later, and maybe allow mantras to stay active on map changes.

[dhupp.8103]

Having roamed in WvW as condi FB all week for my diamond chests I can say that I personally find the mantra playstyle both engaging and satisfying. Injecting the decision making component of utilizing final mantra charges in dueling and skirmish situations is a welcomed complexity and really makes for more dynamic fights.

[Xithryl.2807]

@dhupp.8103 said:Injecting the decision making component of utilizing final mantra charges in dueling and skirmish situations is a welcomed complexity and really makes for more dynamic fights.

See this I agree with, utilizing the final charge of a mantra is where risk/reward comes in to play.

[phor.7952]

@Xithryl.2807 said:See this I agree with, utilizing the final charge of a mantra is where risk/reward comes in to play.And the cooldown handles that on its own, right? We don't really need the prep time to get that risk/reward.

But since Mantras drastically increase the possible APM compared to our other actives, perhaps they added the preparation mechanic to deter players from taking too many mantras? After all, if you've only got a couple of them then ~5 seconds prep-time isn't going to make or break many situations.If you take 5 mantras? Then sure, 15 seconds could seem unreasonable. But maybe it's supposesd to feel that way.

[Xithryl.2807]

@phor.7952 said:

@Xithryl.2807 said:See this I agree with, utilizing the final charge of a mantra is where risk/reward comes in to play.And the cooldown handles that on its own, right? We don't really need the prep time to get that risk/reward.

But since Mantras drastically increase the possible APM compared to our other actives, perhaps they added the preparation mechanic to deter players from taking too many mantras? After all, if you've only got a couple of them then ~5 seconds prep-time isn't going to make or break many situations.If you take 5 mantras? Then sure, 15 seconds could seem unreasonable. But maybe it's supposesd to feel that way.

Perhaps, but then I'd imagine risk/reward coming to to play with activating them if you couldn't have them all active at the same time.

I mean maybe they are using the activation time as a means to deter players from going full mantras, either way I think allowing them to stay active on map change will help a ton with all the complaints.

[Mikau.6920]

They need to increase the cone range to at least 450 and the radius to 180 to be at least viable. Now is just impossible to hit any ally and the offensive ones aren't interesting to use.

Also, have too much cast time. The cast time should be at least the same as Mesmer ones and with some type of effect when preparing. The Mantra related trait is very weak and the Stoic Demeanor is useless (I believe they had some intent to use in combination with the mantra trait).

[Obtena.7952]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see a problem with how they currently work ... it's a tried and tested mechanic. It makes little sense to say Mantras don't work properly at this point.

Except that have already changed them multiple times, last time being the PoF launch.

We have had the current version for less that a week, what part of that is tried and tested?

The part where you use them and they work and make sense the way they work. maybe if you want to be more specific, we can talk about what you think doesn't work on them. I think they make lots of sense mechanically. The only issue is how they reset with map changes, etc... that's not a "they don't make sense and don't work" problem, that's an implementation issue.

[phor.7952]

The mantra related trait [Weighty Terms] is actually pretty decent.It affects the charge recovery, so you can use your mantras every ~9.5 seconds instead of every 12 (or every 12 seconds on the elite instead of 15 seconds).If it weren't for the 12 second internal cooldown on [Liberator's Vow], I'd probably be using [Weighty Terms] in my build.

[Wonderz ZX.7943]

I find that when you stop to think how powerful the mantras can actually be if they were a one off, which they practically can be, the full recharge time doesn't seem that bad. Consider Potence as a one off: Quickness 8s, Might 18 stacks for ~10s. Or when you compare the heal mantra Solace to Signet of Resolve, Solace heals for just a tad less instantly and gives you 3 blocks for a cool down that is 5s shorter.

The way Mantras are now you could burst them to do greatly help you turn the edge in a fight or pace yourself for more a longer battle or lots of opponents.

[Sylvyn.4750]

@TrippyDroppings.6735 said:Honestly I can't believe people find activating a skill so much of a pain. Switching a map, dying or even logging in of course you should have to prepare them. That is the whole idea. I guess I can kind of understand wanting map hopping to not effect it, but it really isn't a pain. The fact of the matter is, mantras are skills that you prepare before a fight and if you use the charges up mid-fight you then have a cooldown and the cast time to deal with, that is the mechanic of mantras and it should never change. If you don't like that then just don't use them. honestly. Quite frankly if the biggest complaint you have with them is, "I have to click it when I load into a map or die." Then they have done a great job.

Personally I wish their radius was at least 240-300 all around, but hey they aren't that hard to work with.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but everytime I see someone complaining that they have to activate their skill when referring to mantras it is just comical.

If Anet happens to read this, good job. I have been a Guardian main since release and wanted mantras for years now. Really happy with what we got.

As for the OP, I think gaining a boon on preparation would be nice, but I honestly don't think it is needed.

I can understand logging off or dying, sure, recharge necessary. However, as others have mentioned, taking a quick underwater dip resets them, too, which is very inconvenient in WvW as there are plenty of water barriers to cross and you may be pursuing or being pursued at the time, so losing immediate access to some of your skills could be fatal. And map changes...what if your friendlies in WvW pull the emergency waypoint at home keep while you are on a different map? You arrive with uncharged mantras and if the invaders have already broken into inner, good luck trying to charge mantras as you get bombed by a variety of CCs. For PvErs, charging is an inconvenience, for WvWers, lives are on the line.

[Sylvyn.4750]

Here's another issue...not only do they reset when you have one of the above events occur, but they will sometimes, not always, go on cooldown, so you're waiting for them to first go off cooldown before you can charge them.

[TrippyDroppings.6735]

Haven't actually managed to go into WvW yet unfortunately so didn't know about the water issue. I imagine they will sort it so if you have them underwater it won't do it anymore such as sigil stacks.

Map hopping in WvW though, I get what you mean but as far as I know isn't that how it has always been for mantras (mesmer ones) Genuine question as I haven't played much of the profession.

Hopefully the bugs get sorted out as soon as possible, maybe then people will calm down a bit.

[RabbitUp.8294]

Map hopping is a lot worse on pvp and fractals, were you will be changing maps every 5 minutes.

They should just code them to be automatically casted and ready when you change a map, it's an empty choice that doesn't contribute to gameplay, beside to annoy you.