ANet™: Split Danger Time!

[Levetty.1279]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.Wrong it was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.Not when most people liked the change.With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.You are confusing numbers with mechanics and even then only Staff Phantasm really got worse.

Just realise that I am talking about PvP and you seem to have no idea about it. I have not heard

a single person

who prefers any Mesmer meta post-rework to core shatter or condi chrono meta. The class worked perfectly fine back then (again, PvP). You cannot just turn around and say "they remembered to finish class after beta". You are just wrong.Except as people are telling you the overwhelming response to the changes were positive. You don't get to troll and just declare people wrong because you don't like that they finally finished the class off. The one trick shatter builds still work just as well, they never kept phantasms up attacking a target because they were shattering and the fact that they can still kill proves that clone generation isn't a problem.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Swordsman, staff, focus - all those lost dps with the change, numbers not mechanics.

As for DT, a split should've been made.Swordsman does slightly less damage against a moving foe and a lot more damage against a foe you manage to lock down, focus went weird but its a damage increase against single targets. They could easily change Staff and Focus phantasms without reverting the phantasms changes.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

^ What Levetty said.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.Wrong it was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.Not when most people liked the change.With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.You are confusing numbers with mechanics and even then only Staff Phantasm really got worse.

Just realise that I am talking about PvP and you seem to have no idea about it. I have not heard

a single person

who prefers any Mesmer meta post-rework to core shatter or condi chrono meta. The class worked perfectly fine back then (again, PvP). You cannot just turn around and say "they remembered to finish class after beta". You are just wrong.Except as people are telling you the overwhelming response to the changes were positive. You don't get to troll and just declare people wrong because you don't like that they finally finished the class off. The one trick shatter builds still work just as well, they never kept phantasms up attacking a target because they were shattering and the fact that they can still kill proves that clone generation isn't a problem.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Swordsman, staff, focus - all those lost dps with the change, numbers not mechanics.

As for DT, a split should've been made.Swordsman does slightly less damage against a moving foe and a lot more damage against a foe you manage to lock down, focus went weird but its a damage increase against single targets. They could easily change Staff and Focus phantasms without reverting the phantasms changes.

Not true, swordsman was one of the hardest hitting phantasms and just the poke animation, faster damage than this one, focus with the right pull did the sameish damage as rangers whirling defense, again faster damage - more dps.And I'll mention again the conversion time, pre rework you could shatter right after the attack, heck since they counted as an illusion you could use stuff such as a traited jaunt (SD) to create a clone right of the bat, post rework is a mess, shattering became much slower.For pve purposes it's fine, for pvp it was not only a huge nerf, it was a source of visual clutter.If I had to chose only one thing to undone on mesmer - it surely would be the phantasm rework.

[Quadox.7834]

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.Wrong it was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.Not when most people liked the change.With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.You are confusing numbers with mechanics and even then only Staff Phantasm really got worse.

Just realise that I am talking about PvP and you seem to have no idea about it. I have not heard

a single person

who prefers any Mesmer meta post-rework to core shatter or condi chrono meta. The class worked perfectly fine back then (again, PvP). You cannot just turn around and say "they remembered to finish class after beta". You are just wrong.Except as people are telling youAs I said I am talking about PvP, and outside the Mesmer forums I don't think I've heard a single PvP Mesmer call the rework good. Some call it bad and some adapt and forget/ignore. But I know that the Mesmer forums is mostly PvE and players in gold or below (nothing wrong with that).the overwhelming response to the changes were positive.Don't know how you drew this conclusion but even if true, this is likely because any change feels refreshing and exiting at first. In fact, I was initially on the positive side as I said in my thread "Phantasm rework bad for PvP in hindsight?" over a year ago. Of course after years of slow development and lackluster balance patches one gets exited by reworks.You don't get to troll and just declare people wrong because you don't like that they finally finished the class off.Hypocrite. This is exactly what you are doing. And this has

nothing

to do with "finishing the class off" - no need to act willfully ignorant.The one trick shatter builds still work just as well, they never kept phantasms up attacking a target because they were shattering and the fact that they can still kill proves that clone generation isn't a problem.The problem is not that you can't keep a phantasm up forever anymore, but about speed of getting shatters off, about illusion management, about increased visual noise, about options. As we've talked about.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Swordsman, staff, focus - all those lost dps with the change, numbers not mechanics.

As for DT, a split should've been made.Swordsman does slightly less damage against a moving foe and a lot more damage against a foe you manage to lock down, focus went weird but its a damage increase against single targets. They could easily change Staff and Focus phantasms without reverting the phantasms changes.Sword is terrible, focus is better vs single target (esp) but lost the synergy with focus pull. I don't mind redesigned phantasms and it is unrelated to the mechanics rework but slow-attacking phantasms like staff and focus exacerbate the problems of the phantasm mechanics rework.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If not, I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess. And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.

[Quadox.7834]

@"EpicTurtle.8571" said:It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1Rework was still fresh and exciting at that early point. Tiny sample size. Skewed to only Mesmer forum regulars (I didn't even vote there because I guess this was at the point when I had quit due to Mesmer being boring). Again, I am talking about PvP only (and above a certain level of experience / skill where the differences are even noticed).

And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.That is your opinion. Also, I know that they will never ever revert the phantasm rework but there are steps that can be taken to lessen the negative impact (rework/remove Chronophantasma for example). Here is an example of a complaint by another user.I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess.No idea what that means.And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.Wrong. Off the top of my head: Waiting for multiple berzerker attacks for more dps was a real thing. Shattering phantasms before they finish their attack+aftercast was a real thing, for example for slow moving/attacking phantasms (especially on chrono with superspeed shatter trait), or for avoiding cleave (getting value), or for stunbreaking a CCd phantasm. Keeping track of illusions was a real thing (a con for some, but for me and others this was a display of skill and awareness on part of good Mesmers). I may have forgotten some in this list because it was so long ago. Some more in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33167/phantasm-rework-bad-for-pvp-in-hindsight which I guess you already read. But sure the rework is good if you consider not accidentally shattering phantasms as QoL and you want the profession to have less options and to "play itself".

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"EpicTurtle.8571" said:It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

Rework was still fresh and exciting at that early point. Tiny sample size. Skewed to only Mesmer forum regulars (I didn't even vote there because I guess this was at the point when I had quit due to Mesmer being boring). Again, I am talking about PvP only (and above a certain level of experience / skill where the differences are even noticed).

And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.That is your opinion. Also, I know that they will

never ever

revert the phantasm rework but there are steps that can be taken to lessen the negative impact (rework/remove Chronophantasma for example).

Here

is an example of a complaint by another user.I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess.No idea what that means.And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.Wrong. Off the top of my head: Waiting for multiple berzerker attacks for more dps was a real thing. Shattering phantasms before they finish their attack+aftercast was a real thing, for example for slow moving/attacking phantasms (especially on chrono with superspeed shatter trait), or for avoiding cleave (getting value), or for stunbreaking a CCd phantasm. Keeping track of illusions was a real thing (a con for some, but for me and others this was a display of skill and awareness on part of good Mesmers). I may have forgotten some in this list because it was so long ago. Some more in

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33167/phantasm-rework-bad-for-pvp-in-hindsight

which I guess you already read. But sure the rework is good if you consider not accidentally shattering phantasms as QoL and you want the profession to have less options and to "play itself".

And your response to 'most people' was your very anecdotal, "WELL IVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE SAY THEY LIKE IT". I doubt much has changed.

Aside from the multiple berserker attacks everything else you listed still fits in to 'maybe one attack and then shatter'. Don't gatekeep 'good Mesmers' behind your false concept. And less options only really applies to PvP and even then only if one subscribes to your perspective.

I'm going to bow out of this one. There's not much point to it.

[Quadox.7834]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

Rework was still fresh and exciting at that early point. Tiny sample size. Skewed to only Mesmer forum regulars (I didn't even vote there because I guess this was at the point when I had quit due to Mesmer being boring). Again, I am talking about PvP only (and above a certain level of experience / skill where the differences are even noticed).

And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.That is your opinion. Also, I know that they will

never ever

revert the phantasm rework but there are steps that can be taken to lessen the negative impact (rework/remove Chronophantasma for example).

Here

is an example of a complaint by another user.I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess.No idea what that means.And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.Wrong. Off the top of my head: Waiting for multiple berzerker attacks for more dps was a real thing. Shattering phantasms before they finish their attack+aftercast was a real thing, for example for slow moving/attacking phantasms (especially on chrono with superspeed shatter trait), or for avoiding cleave (getting value), or for stunbreaking a CCd phantasm. Keeping track of illusions was a real thing (a con for some, but for me and others this was a display of skill and awareness on part of good Mesmers). I may have forgotten some in this list because it was so long ago. Some more in

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33167/phantasm-rework-bad-for-pvp-in-hindsight

which I guess you already read. But sure the rework is good if you consider not accidentally shattering phantasms as QoL and you want the profession to have less options and to "play itself".

And your response to 'most people' was your very anecdotal, "WELL IVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE SAY THEY LIKE IT". I doubt much has changed.Well I think people have gotten used to it at this point certainly. You are right, this point leads nowhere.

Aside from the multiple berserker attacks everything else you listed still fits in to 'maybe one attack and then shatter'.Simplifying all of that into "maybe one attack and then shatter" is akin to simplifying Guild Wars 2 combat into "wait for CDs and press buttons".Don't gatekeep 'good Mesmers' behind your false conceptI didn't. I specifically said

but for me

this was a display of skill and awareness. And I've seen others lament that illusion management is "gone" for Mesmer. But I acknowledge that you don't care for it, for instance.And less options only really applies to PvP and even then only if one subscribes to your perspective.I have stated that I am only talking about PvP. I don't think less options only applies "if one subscribes to your perspective" because unless I am missing something the rework simply did close more options for Phantasms and shatters than it opened. However you can of course still have the opinion that the rework was a net positive, for example in QoL or in more fun PvE rotations and so on.

I'm going to bow out of this one. There's not much point to it.Nor is there to anything, especially anything on this forum. But we do it anyway! :)

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

Rework was still fresh and exciting at that early point. Tiny sample size. Skewed to only Mesmer forum regulars (I didn't even vote there because I guess this was at the point when I had quit due to Mesmer being boring). Again, I am talking about PvP only (and above a certain level of experience / skill where the differences are even noticed).

And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.That is your opinion. Also, I know that they will

never ever

revert the phantasm rework but there are steps that can be taken to lessen the negative impact (rework/remove Chronophantasma for example).

Here

is an example of a complaint by another user.I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess.No idea what that means.And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.Wrong. Off the top of my head: Waiting for multiple berzerker attacks for more dps was a real thing. Shattering phantasms before they finish their attack+aftercast was a real thing, for example for slow moving/attacking phantasms (especially on chrono with superspeed shatter trait), or for avoiding cleave (getting value), or for stunbreaking a CCd phantasm. Keeping track of illusions was a real thing (a con for some, but for me and others this was a display of skill and awareness on part of good Mesmers). I may have forgotten some in this list because it was so long ago. Some more in

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33167/phantasm-rework-bad-for-pvp-in-hindsight

which I guess you already read. But sure the rework is good if you consider not accidentally shattering phantasms as QoL and you want the profession to have less options and to "play itself".

And your response to 'most people' was your very anecdotal, "WELL IVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE SAY THEY LIKE IT". I doubt much has changed.Well I think people have gotten used to it at this point certainly. You are right, this point leads nowhere.

Aside from the multiple berserker attacks everything else you listed still fits in to 'maybe one attack and then shatter'.Simplifying all of that into "maybe one attack and then shatter" is akin to simplifying Guild Wars 2 combat into "wait for CDs and press buttons".Don't gatekeep 'good Mesmers' behind your false conceptI didn't. I specifically said

but for me

this was a display of skill and awareness. And I've seen others lament that illusion management is "gone" for Mesmer. But I acknowledge that you don't care for it, for instance.And less options only really applies to PvP and even then only if one subscribes to your perspective.I have stated that I am only talking about PvP. I don't think less options only applies "if one subscribes to your perspective" because unless I am missing something the rework simply did close more options for Phantasms and shatters than it opened. However you can of course still have the opinion that the rework was a net positive, for example in QoL or in more fun PvE rotations and so on.

I'm going to bow out of this one. There's not much point to it.Nor is there to anything, especially anything on this forum. But we do it anyway! :)

Fair enough, apologies if I came off arrogant or hostile.

[Quadox.7834]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

Rework was still fresh and exciting at that early point. Tiny sample size. Skewed to only Mesmer forum regulars (I didn't even vote there because I guess this was at the point when I had quit due to Mesmer being boring). Again, I am talking about PvP only (and above a certain level of experience / skill where the differences are even noticed).

And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.That is your opinion. Also, I know that they will

never ever

revert the phantasm rework but there are steps that can be taken to lessen the negative impact (rework/remove Chronophantasma for example).

Here

is an example of a complaint by another user.I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess.No idea what that means.And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.Wrong. Off the top of my head: Waiting for multiple berzerker attacks for more dps was a real thing. Shattering phantasms before they finish their attack+aftercast was a real thing, for example for slow moving/attacking phantasms (especially on chrono with superspeed shatter trait), or for avoiding cleave (getting value), or for stunbreaking a CCd phantasm. Keeping track of illusions was a real thing (a con for some, but for me and others this was a display of skill and awareness on part of good Mesmers). I may have forgotten some in this list because it was so long ago. Some more in

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33167/phantasm-rework-bad-for-pvp-in-hindsight

which I guess you already read. But sure the rework is good if you consider not accidentally shattering phantasms as QoL and you want the profession to have less options and to "play itself".

And your response to 'most people' was your very anecdotal, "WELL IVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE SAY THEY LIKE IT". I doubt much has changed.Well I think people have gotten used to it at this point certainly. You are right, this point leads nowhere.

Aside from the multiple berserker attacks everything else you listed still fits in to 'maybe one attack and then shatter'.Simplifying all of that into "maybe one attack and then shatter" is akin to simplifying Guild Wars 2 combat into "wait for CDs and press buttons".Don't gatekeep 'good Mesmers' behind your false conceptI didn't. I specifically said

but for me

this was a display of skill and awareness. And I've seen others lament that illusion management is "gone" for Mesmer. But I acknowledge that you don't care for it, for instance.And less options only really applies to PvP and even then only if one subscribes to your perspective.I have stated that I am only talking about PvP. I don't think less options only applies "if one subscribes to your perspective" because unless I am missing something the rework simply did close more options for Phantasms and shatters than it opened. However you can of course still have the opinion that the rework was a net positive, for example in QoL or in more fun PvE rotations and so on.

I'm going to bow out of this one. There's not much point to it.Nor is there to anything, especially anything on this forum. But we do it anyway! :)

Fair enough, apologies if I came off arrogant or hostile.

Same