Scrapper Patch Notes (3-26-19)

[Manuhell.2759]

@Chaith.8256 said:

Jeez, I don't know what your measurement of 'useless' is for core Engi elites, but Mortar and Elixir X I would not call useless. Mortar and Elixir X beat the hell out of all the Ele elites, for example, and definitely play a big part in PvP fights.

I did not call them useless - that's what i called the turrets in the Supply Crate.I did say that the randomness in the Elixir X is terrible in itself, and it's likely due to having to put a fast and done elite as engineers were among the last professions they worked on. If it wasn't random, let's say they made a transformation made explicitely for engineers and different from those two, i would have nothing against it in principle.And i said that mortar is mediocre because that's just how it is. It has got a ton of fields, fine, but the useful finishers are still gonna be limited (at least it provides a blast finisher with the toolbelt, though). It may be annoying in PvP because you're fighting on relatively small points and you have to stay in the area affected by the shells, but in WvW people would just move out. Still, being a kit, i understand why it's even more difficult to balance out.Besides, when you make comparisons with other classes, you should also remember that engineers' aren't balanced as other classes to start with. We're not the only ones with F-skills, but we're still the only ones with a single weapon set. Our utilities, elite and toolbelts have to contain the same level of strength of a weapon set, utility, elite and class mechanic of other classes, for us to be on par with other classes. If anything, having four weapon sets via attunements, elementalists are like the exact opposite of an engineer.

[maciora.9542]

Damn, it was not too high, our elite skills are useless so they should stay strong!!!

[Iozeph.5617]

What the hell is this? Stockholm syndrome? We're so used to being tossed under the bus around here that we're happy with it whenever it happens? Cower in the corner and hiss at the dissidents among us be quiet, to let community whinge and get whatever they hate playing against stripped from us? Yet again? Seriously. How many times does this have to keep happening?

Why should bulwark gyro or sneak have been touched, and so damnably quick, when so many other professions have no trouble running about with bunker abilities while offering a hell of a lot more pressure at range or melee than we do?

It isn't as though ANet are going to come back around and say, "You know folks, you're right. We've been cruel to you in the past. Here's your turrets back. Here's your pre-nerf HoT hammer damage back. We're sorry, engineers. We'll get those kits competitive. We'll make main hand pistol actually hurt rather thank tickle. We'll make rifle a proper power weapon rather than the good for nothing at conditions and power weapon that it is. Here's weapon swap while we're at it. And you know, as stupidly overdone and face-rollingly bland to play as Holosmith is, here, we'll even make all your other base weapons contribute to Photon Forge readiness." BZZZT! Nope. Sorry. That wet dream isn't coming anywhere near to a happy ending.

This is probably how we're going to be for the next six months or more because the flying, "We never test but our work is done here, BYE!" squad has declared job well done and buggered off.

How is any of this reasonable when most of the good players out there were playing around our bunker abilities without a problem? So we go from being a some of the time mobile bunker and inviso-taxi where everyone had to be coordinated enough to stay within 240 units or get nothing to being what? Once more a glitchy rez and down bot? Best part is bulwark doesn't stack so bringing more than one scrapper is out- not that anyone wants one anymore.

So once again everyone else gets what they want and we get this;

[Vagrant.7206]

@"Iozeph.5617" said:What the hell is this? Stockholm syndrome? We're so used to being tossed under the bus around here that we're happy with it whenever it happens? Cower in the corner and hiss at the dissidents among us be quiet, to let community whinge and get whatever they hate playing against stripped from us? Yet again? Seriously. How many times does this have to keep happening?

Why should bulwark gyro or sneak have been touched, and so damnably quick, when so many other professions have no trouble running about with bunker abilities while offering a hell of a lot more pressure at range or melee than we do?

It isn't as though ANet are going to come back around and say, "You know folks, you're right. We've been cruel to you in the past. Here's your turrets back. Here's your pre-nerf HoT hammer damage back. We're sorry, engineers. We'll get those kits competitive. We'll make main hand pistol actually hurt rather thank tickle. We'll make rifle a proper power weapon rather than the good for nothing at conditions and power weapon that it is. Here's weapon swap while we're at it. And you know, as stupidly overdone and face-rollingly bland to play as Holosmith is, here, we'll even make all your other base weapons contribute to Photon Forge readiness." BZZZT! Nope. Sorry. That wet dream isn't coming anywhere near to a happy ending.

This is probably how we're going to be for the next six months or more because the flying, "We never test but our work is done here, BYE!" squad has declared job well done and buggered off.

How is any of this reasonable when most of the good players out there were playing around our bunker abilities without a problem? So we go from being a some of the time mobile bunker and inviso-taxi where everyone had to be coordinated enough to stay within 240 units or get nothing to being what? Once more a glitchy rez and down bot? Best part is bulwark doesn't stack so bringing more than one scrapper is out- not that anyone wants one anymore.

Slow your roll bucko. Longtime engi main here. I've been here through the turret nerfing, kits gradually falling out of usefulness, condi engi being obliviated, etc.

But bulwark gyro and sneak gyro were unhealthy in competitive game modes. They had every reason to be nerfed, and the nerfs we got were actually gentler than many of us asked for. I'm not here to make my engineer some OP god, I'm here to have fun -- and fun means healthy, competitive gameplay.

Part of the reason we ask for nerfs on specific OP things is because we don't want what happened with turrets to happen again -- where ArenaNet goes overboard in nerfing everything, even things that weren't a problem. If they listen to us as engineer experts, and find us reasonable, then it is unlikely we will end up where elementalists are right now.

[Iozeph.5617]

@Vagrant.7206 said:Slow your roll bucko. Longtime engi main here. I've been here through the turret nerfing, kits gradually falling out of usefulness, condi engi being obliviated, etc.

But bulwark gyro and sneak gyro were unhealthy in competitive game modes. They had every reason to be nerfed, and the nerfs we got were actually gentler than many of us asked for. I'm not here to make my engineer some OP god, I'm here to have fun -- and fun means healthy, competitive gameplay.

Part of the reason we ask for nerfs on specific OP things is because we don't want what happened with turrets to happen again -- where ArenaNet goes overboard in nerfing everything, even things that weren't a problem. If they listen to us as engineer experts, and find us reasonable, then it is unlikely we will end up where elementalists are right now.

Not disagreeing in principle. The timing's suspect though. Well they(Bulwark and sneak gyros) might have been in need of adjustment but, if anything, they should have been far to the back of the line behind all the rest of the cheese that's, 'unhealthy in competitive modes,' still out there and you know it. For a short time that was countered. People had to actually apply some critical thought for a change to applied aggression. Now we're back to the same old rubbish. What were we given to make up for that?

Nothing.

An example here -blast gyro could have been made damage immune but otherwise left at fifteen hundred range? It didn't have to be made a well that travels with us with such pitifully short range, it could have simply been made a dodgeable long-ranged knockdown to allow us to gain ground on fleeing/kiting opponents when wielding a hammer. But is that getting fixed? No, and probably because it might actually work and be fun without being overdone.

We've been reasonable. And apparently being reasonable gets you nothing. Or worse, it gets you everything you didn't ask for or want and then you're stuck with that for years at a time and considered, 'In a good place' and left to rot. This, by people who had money and talent for everything under the sun til a while ago- everything except for properly testing changes before release.

Is it any wonder this whole bloody experience/profession is so frustrating?

[Handin.4032]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Iozeph.5617" said:What the hell is this? Stockholm syndrome? We're so used to being tossed under the bus around here that we're happy with it whenever it happens? Cower in the corner and hiss at the dissidents among us be quiet, to let community whinge and get whatever they hate playing against stripped from us? Yet again? Seriously. How many times does this have to keep happening?

Why should bulwark gyro or sneak have been touched, and so damnably quick, when so many other professions have no trouble running about with bunker abilities while offering a hell of a lot more pressure at range or melee than we do?

It isn't as though ANet are going to come back around and say, "You know folks, you're right. We've been cruel to you in the past. Here's your turrets back. Here's your pre-nerf HoT hammer damage back. We're sorry, engineers. We'll get those kits competitive. We'll make main hand pistol actually hurt rather thank tickle. We'll make rifle a proper power weapon rather than the good for nothing at conditions and power weapon that it is. Here's weapon swap while we're at it. And you know, as stupidly overdone and face-rollingly bland to play as Holosmith is, here, we'll even make all your other base weapons contribute to Photon Forge readiness." BZZZT! Nope. Sorry. That wet dream isn't coming anywhere near to a happy ending.

This is probably how we're going to be for the next six months or more because the flying, "We never test but our work is done here, BYE!" squad has declared job well done and buggered off.

How is any of this reasonable when most of the good players out there were playing around our bunker abilities without a problem? So we go from being a some of the time mobile bunker and inviso-taxi where everyone had to be coordinated enough to stay within 240 units or get nothing to being what? Once more a glitchy rez and down bot? Best part is bulwark doesn't stack so bringing more than one scrapper is out- not that anyone wants one anymore.

Slow your roll bucko. Longtime engi main here. I've been here through the turret nerfing, kits gradually falling out of usefulness, condi engi being obliviated, etc.

But bulwark gyro and sneak gyro were unhealthy in competitive game modes. They had every reason to be nerfed, and the nerfs we got were actually gentler than many of us asked for. I'm not here to make my engineer some OP god, I'm here to have fun -- and fun means healthy, competitive gameplay.

Part of the reason we ask for nerfs on specific OP things is because we don't want what happened with turrets to happen again -- where ArenaNet goes overboard in nerfing everything, even things that weren't a problem. If they listen to us as engineer experts, and find us reasonable, then it is unlikely we will end up where elementalists are right now.

Sneak gyro needed a nerf, or really more of a tweak, especially since Pulse is fairly garbage. The 50% nerf though was a knee-jerk reaction. In WvW, in didn't bring about anything unhealthy, but actually quite the opposite. It brought a new game play mechanic than the almost every present same meta that almost all the fight groups and blob-groups use. But that is also why it was nerfed insanely fast: they gave no time to force people to try to learn counter plays. At the end of the day, for WvW, as much as anet might claim to want diverse healthy pvp, every time something is introduced which upsets the long standing meta it gets nerfed fast. Also, I very much doubt many of the anet devs regularly play WvW, so they probably get most of their info from reddit and WvW forum posts, and likely even fewer of those play mainly engi in WvW.

In general engi suffers from a lot of problems, especially with kits. And well, the entire thing call "gadgets" and in WvW turrets. If they insist on greatly nerfing anything engis gets that is a 'gamechanger', then can they do the very bare minimum of going through the rest of engi and making other things more viable? (I doubt it...or they would, people would use engi and it'd get nerfed again!)

[Manuhell.2759]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

Slow your roll bucko. Longtime engi main here. I've been here through the turret nerfing, kits gradually falling out of usefulness, condi engi being obliviated, etc.

Yeah, i was there as well when the turret nerf happened. And people were fine with everything they did. That's the problem. If even the people of this subsection are finewhatever happens, why should the devs bother?

But bulwark gyro and sneak gyro were unhealthy in competitive game modes. They had every reason to be nerfed, and the nerfs we got were actually gentler than many of us asked for. I'm not here to make my engineer some OP god, I'm here to have fun -- and fun means healthy, competitive gameplay.

Bulwark was a bad design change to start with - a big barrier may be unhealthly, but so is being harmed by your allies' errors, and they're fixing only the first one by now. And Sneak Gyro is a stealth skill - that's what makes it unhealthly to start with - but they still decided to give us one and even make it an elite, so it had to give a strong effect to be one. And then they nerfed it, so that it has no point being an elite. Maybe they should have thought about it back when they designed it?It makes as much sense as putting several utilities to defend and protect an area after having designed a game mode based about defending small points. Ah, right, they did that too.Anyway, they didn't need a nerf, they needed a redesign (slight for the Bulwark and a total change for the Sneak). But nerfing some values is fast, cheap and easy. And if people here just accept everything they do, they won't even bother doing a redesign.

Part of the reason we ask for nerfs on specific OP things is because we don't want what happened with turrets to happen again -- where ArenaNet goes overboard in nerfing everything, even things that weren't a problem. If they listen to us as engineer experts, and find us reasonable, then it is unlikely we will end up where elementalists are right now.They do overboard because they know there won't be any issue in doing so. Engineers historically have always been one of the less used classes. If making a few engineers unhappy by nerfing turrets to the floor makes all the other people happy, that's what they'll do. And what they did. And people here didn't even bother much when such things happened, anyway. They were more busy with greater issues, like the kit packs...

[Prinzsecond.4863]

@"Manuhell.2759" said:Then i guess the Elixir S is even more elite, since it comes with two ways out of pinch situations in a single slot, an invulnerability and a stealth. Without any additional cooldown used on the engineer's part (those combo finishers don't come for free). And can even have a lower cooldown on the invisibility, with roughly the same uptime.

No it does not, elixir S invul just avoids Spikes, but does not give you any time to breath/heal/escape or similar (except you are within 3s of a tower or Keep). No it does not have a lower cooldown, it has the same cooldown. If traited you can also argue to trait the 3s-on-dodge CD reduce then you are also at ~30s for the elite CD. And yes it has "roughly" the same uptime, but only roughly. Elite has 1.5s more stealth and abilities to extend it even further. And it has a bigger radius for allies and it does not make any activation Sound.

And most of those weapon skills also inflict damage, so you risk to blow out your stealth in doing so. The shield doesn't, but...using magnetic inversion for that is kinda wasteful, in my opinion.

That is exactly what makes the elite cool. Engineer Play always required a high skill Level. Finding the right time during that 5s smoke field to apply any jump/blast finisher without doing damage is not easy, but rewards you with much higher escape chances. Love such things. Also you have to decide which skills you want to use for that and which you want to safe up in case it does not work out.

No, it's just that our core elite skills happen to be underwhelming, for several reasons.Supply Crate itself is terrible, cause the turrets are useless. Essentially it's just a long cooldown area stun. I wouldn't bother with it if it wasn't for the toolbelt.Elixir X is a relic of its time (a skill used just to recycle other elites cause the engineer was like the last class they worked on). Being a random transformation out of two is terrible in itself, but at least the toolbelt is nice.Mortar is just mediocre, other kits are outright better. It could use a rework to put charges on some of the skills and adjust them, maybe. The toolbelt can be useful, though.Sneak Gyro was good for the single thing it did - a long stealth for small parties - but is now utterly mediocre, and the toolbelt is still bad as before.Is it still usable? Sure, sometimes it can help even if it stealths for far less time. But is it a good elite? No, it doesn't even qualify as one for what it does.

Have to disagree here too. I love all our elite skills, especially mortar kit in Close range combats and the supply crate for the full condi-cleanse + heal + stun + snare + blind + local condi pressure. If any of those elites are made stronger, a lot of our utilities should be weakened or engi will just become OP.

[Chaith.8256]

Super disappointed in the reactions of Engi mains here towards receiving the most reasonable of nerfs.

• They balanced these skills fast, yes, no kidding. This is purely a good thing unless you felt entitled to rampage for a while.

• Sneak Gyro is so nerfed! Not really. Try using Rocket Charge/blasts in it, you can get a 15s stealth because leaping/blasting actually applies better stacks of stealth than the pulsing ones. The ability actually makes more sense now.

• Bulwark will still be on everyone's bar even when giving 33% less barrier.. I currently am not happy with this skill being better solo because of the damage transfer, but that's a gripe with the early March patch, not the late March one. Until they hotfix, feel free to have fun with game breaking double barrier btw.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Chaith.8256 said:

• They balanced these skills fast, yes, no kidding. This is purely a good thing unless you felt entitled to rampage for a while.Reaper has buffed deathly chill for ~8 months, wrecking complete havoc in WvW and singlehandedly being responsible for shifting to a toxic zerg condition meta no one like and is forcing Anet to balance toward better condition cleansing... which still cant keep up with dc and people getting instakilled by 40+ stacks of bleeding. It is finally nerfed by Anet 1 week after no one plays Reaper anymore... because the vastly superior Scourge was released with barriers and boonconversion up the kitten

Scrapper has good stealth and barrier for two weeks, everybody panics

Its is quite amusing really, cant deny that.

[Manuhell.2759]

@"Prinzsecond.4863" said:

No it does not, elixir S invul just avoids Spikes, but does not give you any time to breath/heal/escape or similar (except you are within 3s of a tower or Keep). No it does not have a lower cooldown, it has the same cooldown. If traited you can also argue to trait the 3s-on-dodge CD reduce then you are also at ~30s for the elite CD. And yes it has "roughly" the same uptime, but only roughly. Elite has 1.5s more stealth and abilities to extend it even further. And it has a bigger radius for allies and it does not make any activation Sound.

That elixir S invul is still infinitely more useful than the area reveal. There shouldn't even be a discussion there.And those dodges (sure, feel free to waste them just to lower the cooldown) and finishers to extend the stealth further don't come for free. It's something you have to waste after already having used an elite skill. And given the stealth stacks cap you aren't even getting the full 3s, you get around 2s at most. Meaning, that elixir s toolbelt is still better than 2 blast finishers in that regard (and doesn't deal damage, so you won't risk being revealed in doing so).

That is exactly what makes the elite cool. Engineer Play always required a high skill Level. Finding the right time during that 5s smoke field to apply any jump/blast finisher without doing damage is not easy, but rewards you with much higher escape chances. Love such things. Also you have to decide which skills you want to use for that and which you want to safe up in case it does not work out.

No, that's just you grasping at straws to defend a terrible skill. You're using an elite skill and you even have to use other skills to add 2s of stealth each (you aren't getting the full duration due to the stealth stack caps, so it's bad even in doing that). You have to waste additional skills because an elite skill isn't good enough to do the single thing it's supposed to do. Assuming you've got those skills to waste to begin with, as many of those would already have seen use during the fight - we already got other fields to use them with.Supply drop turrets may be bad, but at least the Med Pack Drop is nice. I can't even say that with the Sneak Gyro, the toolbelt is just horrible.

Have to disagree here too. I love all our elite skills, especially mortar kit in Close range combats and the supply crate for the full condi-cleanse + heal + stun + snare + blind + local condi pressure. If any of those elites are made stronger, a lot of our utilities should be weakened or engi will just become OP.

Sure, if you are forced to stay on a point like in PvP, those fields from the mortar may be useful. In WvW there is no reason to do so and people will just move out. Funny you mention its best use in close combat, though, given it's the kit with the highest range we've got - and so slow at hitting that people just move out before the shells land.And those turrets from the elite may as well not exist in WvW, given how fast they die (and it's not like they do much in the little span they're alive, anyway). It's good for the toolbelt, but the turrets of the main skill have been underwhelming since the turret nerf.

@Chaith.8256 said:Super disappointed in the reactions of Engi mains here towards receiving the most reasonable of nerfs.I guess we have a different definition of reasonable. I don't find having elite skills as good or worse that utility skills reasonable. I agree with the bulwark, though, albeit i would rather see that skill changed.

• They balanced these skills fast, yes, no kidding. This is purely a good thing unless you felt entitled to rampage for a while.If they wrote that they plan to make additional changes and redesign the Sneak Gyro i would have nothing against it. What will likely happen is that they'll just leave them at that, though.

• Sneak Gyro is so nerfed! Not really. Try using Rocket Charge/blasts in it, you can get a 15s stealth because leaping/blasting actually applies better stacks of stealth than the pulsing ones. The ability actually makes more sense now.Yep, let's waste additional skills to do what an elite skill focused on doing a single thing is supposed to do, and even get only a limited benefit from the stealth stacks because of the caps, all while using damaging skills that can end up revealing us and make the elite skill and the finishers used moot, on the assumption that those skills weren't already used up during the fight of course. Seems like a fine plan.

• Bulwark will still be on everyone's bar even when giving 33% less barrier.. I currently am not happy with this skill being better solo because of the damage transfer, but that's a gripe with the early March patch, not the late March one. Until they hotfix, feel free to have fun with game breaking double barrier btw.I would rather have them get rid of the damage transfer and make it pulse barriers at the user and allies (with lower values compared to now, of course). But since it isn't an issue in PvP, i doubt they'll bother changing it. They'll just slap nerfs until they deem it fine.

[Chaith.8256]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

• They balanced these skills fast, yes, no kidding. This is purely a good thing unless you felt entitled to rampage for a while.
  Reaper has buffed deathly chill for ~8 months, wrecking complete havoc in WvW and singlehandedly being responsible for shifting to a toxic zerg condition meta no one like and is forcing Anet to balance toward better condition cleansing... which still cant keep up with dc and people getting instakilled by 40+ stacks of bleeding. It is finally nerfed by Anet 1 week after no one plays Reaper anymore... because the vastly superior Scourge was released with barriers and boonconversion up the kitten

Scrapper has good stealth and barrier for two weeks, everybody panics

Its

is

quite amusing really, cant deny that.

Nobody really losing their minds for a couple days and counting with Bulwark Gyro applying double barrier instead of the quoted 33% nerf. It's not as if the entire population is trying to lose their minds complaining Engi into the dirt, or as it hasn't had its time to shine outside of WvW for the last 1.5yrs.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

@Manuhell.2759 said:

That elixir S invul is still infinitely more useful than the area reveal. There shouldn't even be a discussion there.And those dodges (sure, feel free to waste them just to lower the cooldown) and finishers to extend the stealth further don't come for free. It's something you have to waste after already having used an elite skill. And given the stealth stacks cap you aren't even getting the full 3s, you get around 2s at most. Meaning, that elixir s toolbelt is still better than 2 blast finishers in that regard (and doesn't deal damage, so you won't risk being revealed in doing so).

We can discuss this 10x back an forth, it won't Change anything. The sneak gyro is much more useful than the elixir s toolbelt. Dodges are not wasted, they are to be used. If you have a fight and don't use any dodge for 45s then you also won't have a reason for escaping at all. The stacks cap yes, but if you average the blast use in the middle of the pulses, you have max. 3 more 1.5s stacks on your finishers, so almost no Duration loss at all.

No, that's just you grasping at straws to defend a terrible skill. You're using an elite skill and you even have to use other skills to add 2s of stealth each (you aren't getting the full duration due to the stealth stack caps, so it's bad even in doing that). You have to waste additional skills because an elite skill isn't good enough to do the single thing it's supposed to do. Assuming you've got those skills to waste to begin with, as many of those would already have seen use during the fight - we already got other fields to use them with.

Take rocket boots: great Combo with sneak gyro to escape when used at the right time.Take rocket Charge from hammer: many ppl spam AOE damage to invisible foes. Great Combo for Evasion of those while getting more stealth to escapeJump Rifle: used to gain distance (or Close distance, but then don't use stealth), use it after sneak gyro at the right time to escape with 10.5s of invisibility.Comboing is the main Thing of engineers, it does not matter if elite or Utility.

Supply drop turrets may be bad, but at least the Med Pack Drop is nice. I can't even say that with the Sneak Gyro, the toolbelt is just horrible.

I have revealed mesmers, rangers, engies and thieves so many times with that skill, this toolbelt skill is just great.

Sure, if you are forced to stay on a point like in PvP, those fields from the mortar may be useful. In WvW there is no reason to do so and people will just move out. Funny you mention its best use in close combat, though, given it's the kit with the highest range we've got - and so slow at hitting that people just move out before the shells land.

Just because it has range does not mean that it has to be used at range. And also in WvW, yes, the enemy may move out, giving you time for heal. Also freeze field is a CC etc. I don't want to list the obvious stuff here.

Just leave our elites as they are, they offer so much cool Utility for so many builds and situations.

[Manuhell.2759]

@Prinzsecond.4863 said:

We can discuss this 10x back an forth, it won't Change anything. The sneak gyro is much more useful than the elixir s toolbelt. Dodges are not wasted, they are to be used. If you have a fight and don't use any dodge for 45s then you also won't have a reason for escaping at all. The stacks cap yes, but if you average the blast use in the middle of the pulses, you have max. 3 more 1.5s stacks on your finishers, so almost no Duration loss at all.

You're the one that brought out the dodge trait to say that you can lower the cooldown a lot on it. Either you use them to dodge the proper attacks (and don't take much advantage of the trait) or you waste them even on minor attacks to properly lower that cooldown, so make your mind on that.And given that most of those finishers deal damage, no, you don't have the luxury to time those exactly. You'll have to use them when the situation permits it.

Take rocket boots: great Combo with sneak gyro to escape when used at the right time.

Rocket boots are a good mobility skill even by themselves, though. Chances are you didn't need to use both of them together to begin with. And if you do, you're still using both an utility and an elite to do so. The opportunity cost is hardly worthwhile.

Take rocket Charge from hammer: many ppl spam AOE damage to invisible foes. Great Combo for Evasion of those while getting more stealth to escapeJump Rifle: used to gain distance (or Close distance, but then don't use stealth), use it after sneak gyro at the right time to escape with 10.5s of invisibility.

They could have been used in other ways to begin with (to heal while dealing damage, for example). And you use them for stealth, you still risk hitting people if they move in the area after you've casted those skills. It may work if there weren't many enemies around to start with, though.

Comboing is the main Thing of engineers, it does not matter if elite or Utility.

Combo finishers, especially the good ones, are still limited in number. Slapping a combo field on a weak skill doesn't make it good. It's just a weak skill that requires other skills to be good.

I have revealed mesmers, rangers, engies and thieves so many times with that skill, this toolbelt skill is just great.

So there truly is a defence force for anything, huh. It's the most situational skill ingame, and it can even be randomly blocked by aegis and such. Even when it hits, the enemy is likely near enough to do whatever he meant to do. And it's deemed great. Hah.

Just because it has range does not mean that it has to be used at range.

I don't even need to comment this, i guess. Our only 1500 range kit and it isn't meant to be used at range. Ok.

And also in WvW, yes, the enemy may move out, giving you time for heal. Also freeze field is a CC etc. I don't want to list the obvious stuff here.

Yep, it's not like enemies have got ranged skills. Guess they'll just wait there until the field goes away.

Just leave our elites as they are, they offer so much cool Utility for so many builds and situations.

It's more like we use them only because we can't put an utility on their slot. Since they aren't elite at all as far as their power goes.

[Handin.4032]

@Prinzsecond.4863 said:

@"Manuhell.2759" said:

That elixir S invul is still infinitely more useful than the area reveal. There shouldn't even be a discussion there.And those dodges (sure, feel free to waste them just to lower the cooldown) and finishers to extend the stealth further don't come for free. It's something you have to waste after already having used an elite skill. And given the stealth stacks cap you aren't even getting the full 3s, you get around 2s at most. Meaning, that elixir s toolbelt is still better than 2 blast finishers in that regard (and doesn't deal damage, so you won't risk being revealed in doing so).

We can discuss this 10x back an forth, it won't Change anything. The sneak gyro is much more useful than the elixir s toolbelt. Dodges are not wasted, they are to be used. If you have a fight and don't use any dodge for 45s then you also won't have a reason for escaping at all. The stacks cap yes, but if you average the blast use in the middle of the pulses, you have max. 3 more 1.5s stacks on your finishers, so almost no Duration loss at all.

No, that's just you grasping at straws to defend a terrible skill. You're using an elite skill and you even have to use other skills to add 2s of stealth each (you aren't getting the full duration due to the stealth stack caps, so it's bad even in doing that). You have to waste additional skills because an elite skill isn't good enough to do the single thing it's supposed to do. Assuming you've got those skills to waste to begin with, as many of those would already have seen use during the fight - we already got other fields to use them with.

Take rocket boots: great Combo with sneak gyro to escape when used at the right time.Take rocket Charge from hammer: many ppl spam AOE damage to invisible foes. Great Combo for Evasion of those while getting more stealth to escapeJump Rifle: used to gain distance (or Close distance, but then don't use stealth), use it after sneak gyro at the right time to escape with 10.5s of invisibility.Comboing is the main Thing of engineers, it does not matter if elite or Utility.

Supply drop turrets may be bad, but at least the Med Pack Drop is nice. I can't even say that with the Sneak Gyro, the toolbelt is just horrible.

I have revealed mesmers, rangers, engies and thieves so many times with that skill, this toolbelt skill is just great.

Sure, if you are forced to stay on a point like in PvP, those fields from the mortar may be useful. In WvW there is no reason to do so and people will just move out. Funny you mention its best use in close combat, though, given it's the kit with the highest range we've got - and so slow at hitting that people just move out before the shells land.

Just because it has range does not mean that it has to be used at range. And also in WvW, yes, the enemy may move out, giving you time for heal. Also freeze field is a CC etc. I don't want to list the obvious stuff here.

Just leave our elites as they are, they offer so much cool Utility for so many builds and situations.

Just to randomly ask: What game mode do you mostly play? And how do you play it? (I.e. pvp, Wvw roamer, Wvw raid fight, etc?) I ask not to attack, just because it sets the point of view of how skills are used and seen.

The problem with the Pulse detect in large WvW fights is that is basically useless. The range is small enough that by the time you reveal you're in range of high damage skills. Furthermore, it can be randomly blocked or dodged. It can be situationally useful when fighting mesmers, rangers, engies, thieves, etc who have stealth but aren't using any mobility. Catching a mirage will be difficult unless they're brainless because of the evades and mobility if they want to truly run away.

The turrets in supply drop need a massive buff for group WvW play, or just remove them and make it a crap ton of health packs instead. They add nothing to WvW play beyond tiny fights while roaming.

The long standing issue with balancing the game is the fact there is large scale (50v50+) and small scale(1v1-5v5) pvp, even in WvW. Engi's in particular have had things nerfed and not-buffed to keep along with power creep which have rendered huge amounts of our skills useless. In WvW, basically all utility turrets, most of the kits, most of the gadgets are either super situational or near useless. So it has pigeon-holed specific builds. Sadly, anet has (and always has had) a self-fulfilling prophecy with engi. They don't keep it competitive in pvp and allow lots of the utils and weapons to become useless, then go "oh, there's few engis so we won't push for a lot of development time for it". Honestly, the rework to gyros was great. But a better rework would be to go through all the kits and util skills and the pistol and make sure they're on-par with all the other skills.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

You're right, should have mentioned that^^

WvW solo roaming and smallscale, no zerging. Sometimes PvP.

Playing power or condi as core, scrapper, holo. As always, some builds are good against others, some are bad (rock-paper-scissors), but all in all I feel like being quite competitive against all other classes, and I don't see a Need to further improve our elite skills.

I also agree that we have some useless skills, like our Utility turrets. Still love the gyro rework as you do^^, which is kinda the Topic of this thread. Sorry for the arguement-spamming before.

[Manuhell.2759]

I primarily use the scrapper in large WvW fights, along with the guild. Mainly as a minstrel healer/cleanser (and in that regard, the new purge gyro is pretty useful).And i agree as well that the rework was good - they were really bad before after all.Even if some redesign, like the bulwark, have some glaring issues - too strong when alone, possibly harmful when in large groups. It's something i hope they'll work off.And Sneak...well, i've already said what i think about it. I would rather see it deleted and replaced by something else.

[Handin.4032]

@"Manuhell.2759" said:I primarily use the scrapper in large WvW fights, along with the guild. Mainly as a minstrel healer/cleanser (and in that regard, the new purge gyro is pretty useful).And i agree as well that the rework was good - they were really bad before after all.Even if some redesign, like the bulwark, have some glaring issues - too strong when alone, possibly harmful when in large groups. It's something i hope they'll work off.And Sneak...well, i've already said what i think about it. I would rather see it deleted and replaced by something else.

At the very least, what I would love is a rework of Pulse. Either make it work like the Warclaw "Sniff" but have it pulse (i.e. it doesn't cause Revealed but it makes on map and is unblockable/evadable. Or change it so the revealed is a bit more useful (because it's blockable/evadable and small radius, it's fairly situational). In the end, Sneak Gyro will likely constantly get nerfed until it is no longer used: it will always be a source of QQ since it's a form of stealth that is AoE mobile.

[coro.3176]

@Handin.4032 said:

@"Manuhell.2759" said:I primarily use the scrapper in large WvW fights, along with the guild. Mainly as a minstrel healer/cleanser (and in that regard, the new purge gyro is pretty useful).And i agree as well that the rework was good - they were really bad before after all.Even if some redesign, like the bulwark, have some glaring issues - too strong when alone, possibly harmful when in large groups. It's something i hope they'll work off.And Sneak...well, i've already said what i think about it. I would rather see it deleted and replaced by something else.

At the very least, what I would love is a rework of Pulse. Either make it work like the Warclaw "Sniff" but have it pulse (i.e. it doesn't cause Revealed but it makes on map and is unblockable/evadable. Or change it so the revealed is a bit more useful (because it's blockable/evadable and small radius, it's fairly situational). In the end, Sneak Gyro will likely constantly get nerfed until it is no longer used: it will

always

be a source of QQ since it's a form of stealth that is AoE mobile.

It's 1200! That's probably the largest radius for an aoe skill in the whole game. How much larger do you want?

[Handin.4032]

@coro.3176 said:

@Handin.4032 said:

@"Manuhell.2759" said:I primarily use the scrapper in large WvW fights, along with the guild. Mainly as a minstrel healer/cleanser (and in that regard, the new purge gyro is pretty useful).And i agree as well that the rework was good - they were really bad before after all.Even if some redesign, like the bulwark, have some glaring issues - too strong when alone, possibly harmful when in large groups. It's something i hope they'll work off.And Sneak...well, i've already said what i think about it. I would rather see it deleted and replaced by something else.

At the very least, what I would love is a rework of Pulse. Either make it work like the Warclaw "Sniff" but have it pulse (i.e. it doesn't cause Revealed but it makes on map and is unblockable/evadable. Or change it so the revealed is a bit more useful (because it's blockable/evadable and small radius, it's fairly situational). In the end, Sneak Gyro will likely constantly get nerfed until it is no longer used: it will

always

be a source of QQ since it's a form of stealth that is AoE mobile.

It's 1200! That's probably the largest radius for an aoe skill in the whole game. How much larger do you want?

It's a non-damaging AoE skill. Think of the 2 scenarios you will tend to use it:

1. A stealthed opponent/group is coming at you and you pop it. By the time it hits them (if it isn't blocked or evaded) they're easily within attack range anyways. At that point you reveal them maybe with enough time to pop a block or something, but 900-1200 range is fairly common in range burst (i.e. engi rifle, mesmer great sword, scourge sandshroud is 900, necro well is 900 and marks 1200, ranger and thief range is 1200, etc). If it's a group, they can cover that 1200 range easily before your group can do much to counter from the Revealed itself.
2. You're trying to get a roamer running away. Now, this is especially worse with mounts. You can look at two of the typical stealthy-roaming classes: thief and mirage (heck, throw in Holo!). In all those cases, their mobility is high enough so that if they stealth, they can cover that range relatively quickly. If they can drop combat, they can mount and run away fast anyways. For mirage, can use blink or sword leap. For Holo, rocket boots or sword leap. For thief, teleport, sb teleport, leaps, etc.

You say 1200 is large for an aoe skill - BUT it's also a non-damaging aoe skill. For reference: Meteor shower (probably biggest spike AoE) has a 360 radius but a 1200 range. In terms of doing it's job: i.e. a way to Detect (hence Detection Pulse) stealthed enemies before they can attack you (prompting them to Reveal themselves). If you add in the fact that it can be blocked or evaded (or invuln skills) then it makes that even worse. You can imagine the common way Mirages initiate with Mirage thrust. That is a 600 range leap. They stealth, blink, dodge (which gives evade) and mirage thrust to stun. That middle evade would likely negate your Detection Pulse anyways. The skill is ALSO affected the BLINDED. So, for instance, if you're fighting a mesmer and they use Prestige to stealth away from you and you hit detection pulse quickly too bad - blinded! If you wait to clear, their mobility is enough they're likely out of range anyways. Similar for thief. Now, engi has a counter to this: Utility Goggles. But, then you have to take Utility Goggles. You could take Reactive Lenses, but then you have to sacrifice either Static Discharge or Power Wrench.

It is one of those skills that sounds decent in 'theory' (given when it was mode in HoT), but when you actually look at it's function for what it was meant to do, it really is very situational and relies moreso on your opponent messing up than anything else. This is why I had mentioned making it something akin to a pulsing "Sniff", or making it so it isn't affected by blinded, blocking, evading or invuln.

[coro.3176]

@Handin.4032 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Handin.4032 said:

@"Manuhell.2759" said:I primarily use the scrapper in large WvW fights, along with the guild. Mainly as a minstrel healer/cleanser (and in that regard, the new purge gyro is pretty useful).And i agree as well that the rework was good - they were really bad before after all.Even if some redesign, like the bulwark, have some glaring issues - too strong when alone, possibly harmful when in large groups. It's something i hope they'll work off.And Sneak...well, i've already said what i think about it. I would rather see it deleted and replaced by something else.

At the very least, what I would love is a rework of Pulse. Either make it work like the Warclaw "Sniff" but have it pulse (i.e. it doesn't cause Revealed but it makes on map and is unblockable/evadable. Or change it so the revealed is a bit more useful (because it's blockable/evadable and small radius, it's fairly situational). In the end, Sneak Gyro will likely constantly get nerfed until it is no longer used: it will

always

be a source of QQ since it's a form of stealth that is AoE mobile.

It's 1200! That's probably the largest radius for an aoe skill in the whole game. How much larger do you want?

It's a

non-damaging

AoE skill. Think of the 2 scenarios you will tend to use it:

1. A stealthed opponent/group is coming at you and you pop it. By the time it hits them (if it isn't blocked or evaded) they're easily within attack range anyways. At that point you reveal them maybe with enough time to pop a block or something, but 900-1200 range is fairly common in range burst (i.e. engi rifle, mesmer great sword, scourge sandshroud is 900, necro well is 900 and marks 1200, ranger and thief range is 1200, etc). If it's a group, they can cover that 1200 range easily before your group can do much to counter from the Revealed itself.
2. You're trying to get a roamer running away. Now, this is especially worse with mounts. You can look at two of the typical stealthy-roaming classes: thief and mirage (heck, throw in Holo!). In all those cases, their mobility is high enough so that if they stealth, they can cover that range relatively quickly. If they can drop combat, they can mount and run away fast anyways. For mirage, can use blink or sword leap. For Holo, rocket boots or sword leap. For thief, teleport, sb teleport, leaps, etc.

You say 1200 is large for an aoe skill - BUT it's also a non-damaging aoe skill. For reference: Meteor shower (probably biggest spike AoE) has a 360 radius but a 1200 range. In terms of doing it's job: i.e. a way to

Detect

(hence Detection Pulse) stealthed enemies before they can attack you (prompting them to Reveal themselves). If you add in the fact that it can be blocked or evaded (or invuln skills) then it makes that even worse. You can imagine the common way Mirages initiate with Mirage thrust. That is a 600 range leap. They stealth, blink, dodge (which gives

evade

) and mirage thrust to stun. That middle evade would likely negate your Detection Pulse anyways. The skill is

ALSO

affected the BLINDED. So, for instance, if you're fighting a mesmer and they use Prestige to stealth away from you and you hit detection pulse quickly too bad - blinded! If you wait to clear, their mobility is enough they're likely out of range anyways. Similar for thief. Now, engi has a counter to this: Utility Goggles. But, then you have to take Utility Goggles. You could take Reactive Lenses, but then you have to sacrifice either Static Discharge or Power Wrench.

It is one of those skills that sounds decent in 'theory' (given when it was mode in HoT), but when you actually look at it's function for what it was meant to do, it really is very situational and relies moreso on your opponent messing up than anything else. This is why I had mentioned making it something akin to a pulsing "Sniff", or making it so it isn't affected by blinded, blocking, evading or invuln.

Honestly, I just don't agree. I use it all the time both roaming and in zergs, and it's great. They even buffed it recently by making it faster and reducing the aftercast.

Here are just a few situations where it's useful:

• completely negating Shadow Refuge - if a Thief uses SR and you catch them with Detection Pulse, they are usually dead. They were relying on SR to stealth them long enough for some other cooldown to be up and they are usually surprised that something that didn't physically hit them has just unstealthed them.
• countering other Scrappers' Sneak Gyro - this is expected more often because Scrappers know how other Scrappers work, but it's still a useful play.
• countering a Veil or Sneak Gyro stealth push. If I see a group of enemies stealthing up a short distance away from my group I'll Sneak Gyro, Rocket Boots ahead to where I think they'll be, then Detection Pulse to reveal their movement so my group isn't caught completely off guard.
• revealing players going for a stealth res

[Handin.4032]

@coro.3176 said:

@Handin.4032 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Handin.4032 said:

@"Manuhell.2759" said:I primarily use the scrapper in large WvW fights, along with the guild. Mainly as a minstrel healer/cleanser (and in that regard, the new purge gyro is pretty useful).And i agree as well that the rework was good - they were really bad before after all.Even if some redesign, like the bulwark, have some glaring issues - too strong when alone, possibly harmful when in large groups. It's something i hope they'll work off.And Sneak...well, i've already said what i think about it. I would rather see it deleted and replaced by something else.

At the very least, what I would love is a rework of Pulse. Either make it work like the Warclaw "Sniff" but have it pulse (i.e. it doesn't cause Revealed but it makes on map and is unblockable/evadable. Or change it so the revealed is a bit more useful (because it's blockable/evadable and small radius, it's fairly situational). In the end, Sneak Gyro will likely constantly get nerfed until it is no longer used: it will

always

be a source of QQ since it's a form of stealth that is AoE mobile.

It's 1200! That's probably the largest radius for an aoe skill in the whole game. How much larger do you want?

It's a

non-damaging

AoE skill. Think of the 2 scenarios you will tend to use it:

1. A stealthed opponent/group is coming at you and you pop it. By the time it hits them (if it isn't blocked or evaded) they're easily within attack range anyways. At that point you reveal them maybe with enough time to pop a block or something, but 900-1200 range is fairly common in range burst (i.e. engi rifle, mesmer great sword, scourge sandshroud is 900, necro well is 900 and marks 1200, ranger and thief range is 1200, etc). If it's a group, they can cover that 1200 range easily before your group can do much to counter from the Revealed itself.
2. You're trying to get a roamer running away. Now, this is especially worse with mounts. You can look at two of the typical stealthy-roaming classes: thief and mirage (heck, throw in Holo!). In all those cases, their mobility is high enough so that if they stealth, they can cover that range relatively quickly. If they can drop combat, they can mount and run away fast anyways. For mirage, can use blink or sword leap. For Holo, rocket boots or sword leap. For thief, teleport, sb teleport, leaps, etc.

You say 1200 is large for an aoe skill - BUT it's also a non-damaging aoe skill. For reference: Meteor shower (probably biggest spike AoE) has a 360 radius but a 1200 range. In terms of doing it's job: i.e. a way to

Detect

(hence Detection Pulse) stealthed enemies before they can attack you (prompting them to Reveal themselves). If you add in the fact that it can be blocked or evaded (or invuln skills) then it makes that even worse. You can imagine the common way Mirages initiate with Mirage thrust. That is a 600 range leap. They stealth, blink, dodge (which gives

evade

) and mirage thrust to stun. That middle evade would likely negate your Detection Pulse anyways. The skill is

ALSO

affected the BLINDED. So, for instance, if you're fighting a mesmer and they use Prestige to stealth away from you and you hit detection pulse quickly too bad - blinded! If you wait to clear, their mobility is enough they're likely out of range anyways. Similar for thief. Now, engi has a counter to this: Utility Goggles. But, then you have to take Utility Goggles. You could take Reactive Lenses, but then you have to sacrifice either Static Discharge or Power Wrench.

It is one of those skills that sounds decent in 'theory' (given when it was mode in HoT), but when you actually look at it's function for what it was meant to do, it really is very situational and relies moreso on your opponent messing up than anything else. This is why I had mentioned making it something akin to a pulsing "Sniff", or making it so it isn't affected by blinded, blocking, evading or invuln.

Honestly, I just don't agree. I use it all the time both roaming and in zergs, and it's great. They even buffed it recently by making it faster and reducing the aftercast.

Here are just a few situations where it's useful:

• completely negating Shadow Refuge - if a Thief uses SR and you catch them with Detection Pulse, they are usually dead. They were relying on SR to stealth them long enough for some other cooldown to be up and they are usually surprised that something that didn't physically hit them has just unstealthed them.If a thief does this, then you don't really need pulse to do the same thing since the thief is doing something wrong... Heck, when thieves used to do this ages ago you could just throw grenades there and kill them.
• countering other Scrappers' Sneak Gyro - this is expected more often because Scrappers know how other Scrappers work, but it's still a useful play.
• countering a Veil or Sneak Gyro stealth push. If I see a group of enemies stealthing up a short distance away from my group I'll Sneak Gyro, Rocket Boots ahead to where I think they'll be, then Detection Pulse to reveal their movement so my group isn't caught completely off guard.
• revealing players going for a stealth resAre the zergs you're fighting against unorganized pugs or not comped? Almost every group I play against, if they saw a scrapper rocket boot towards them they'd be stunlocked faster than you can say "Free bag!". In pushes, boons should be pumped enough Reveal tends to only get 1-3 people because of Aegis (since front line is typically more boon-heavy). I still use it almost push of an enemy, and sure - you might be able to spot them when they're at 900 or so. But that's well within the range of almost all their spike for any comped group. As for the rocket boots... you can do the exact thing with a 'sniff'. At most doing that you only reveal 5 people anyways, and any comped group will adjust.

Detection Pulse is situationally decent, and that's mostly when people are already not doing something right or being oblivious. But it seems like we disagree on that! I've never liked it in the years of playing scrapper since it's so easily countered by just a bit of thought.

[Obtena.7952]

@Iozeph.5617 said:Why should bulwark gyro or sneak have been touched, and so damnably quick, when so many other professions have no trouble running about with bunker abilities while offering a hell of a lot more pressure at range or melee than we do?

Because (as normal), how one class gets balanced is not influenced by what other classes do. Furthermore, the faster that the class gets it's changed, the faster it can get more. Maybe you want to be the class that gets no attention for 8 months?

The bottomline is that the changes were completely reasonable and actually almost exactly the changes that some of the more astute players predicted were needed.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Handin.4032" said:Are the zergs you're fighting against unorganized pugs or not comped? Almost every group I play against, if they saw a scrapper rocket boot towards them they'd be stunlocked faster than you can say "Free bag!". In pushes, boons should be pumped enough Reveal tends to only get 1-3 people because of Aegis (since front line is typically more boon-heavy). I still use it almost push of an enemy, and sure - you might be able to spot them when they're at 900 or so. But that's well within the range of almost all their spike for any comped group. As for the rocket boots... you can do the exact thing with a 'sniff'. At most doing that you only reveal 5 people anyways, and any comped group will adjust.

Detection Pulse is situationally decent, and that's mostly when people are already not doing something right or being oblivious. But it seems like we disagree on that! I've never liked it in the years of playing scrapper since it's so easily countered by just a bit of thought.But... the sneak gyro can actually stealth you so how do they see you, lol?

I havent had any problems revealing organized guilds that stack to stealth (even guilds that's made it their mantra and does it every push with blasting stealth fields). The range on the detection pulse is very good and if stealth doesnt get you near, you still got the bulwark, bubble, protection and heals to sustain attacks. Rocket boots are pretty redundant when your regular feet are enough. If they are already stealthed they will also reveal themselves if they attack you so they are unlikely to do that.

Sniff doesnt show you stealthed players btw.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

@Dawdler.8521 said:Rocket boots are pretty redundant when your regular feet are enough. If they are already stealthed they will also reveal themselves if they attack you so they are unlikely to do that.

I think the rocket boots are to get close to the stealthed Group as fast as possible before the enemy moves too much. But agree, due to the 1200 radius it probably won't be necessary to use them for the reveal, in the end an area of 2400 Units is covered, which is quite cool.