Why is fear magic a thing?

Daniel Handler.4816 · May 17, 2019

With the Skyscale collection we are reintroduced to air, water, earth, fire, ice, blood, death, spirit, and life magic. And we get three new terms, fear magic, courage magic, and growth magic. Growth makes perfect sense, courage sort of, but fear seems like the odd one out. Fear doesn't have the same representation as any of the other 11. It feels like they only chose it for duality with courage.

Konig Des Todes.2086 · May 17, 2019

Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.

Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Daniel Handler.4816 · May 17, 2019

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

The dialogue was silly. As for Zhaitan perhaps I'm just ignoring the complexity of fear since it is one thing whereas I consider courage to be what the Paragon and descendants use for a variety of effects.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · May 17, 2019

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Daniel Handler.4816 · May 17, 2019

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Konig Des Todes.2086 · May 18, 2019

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

I think you're misconstruing the fear effect with "fear magic".

Amanda Whitemoon.6173 · May 18, 2019

heaving the fear effect be fear magic explaisn for me why my character is affected by it, even if you dont fear what caused the effect

EdwinLi.1284 · May 19, 2019

Any thing can be magic as long it requires use magical energy to create the effects for the magic which then becomes the name of that Magic.

The one thing common about Magic names is that it is often based on the effects of what the magical energy produce such as Fear Magic being magic that focus on putting weak or strong emotional fear into a person no matter their mental condition to override all emotional responses.

Courage magic most likely follow this same concept but it puts a strong emotion of courage/bravery into a person that overrides all other types of emotinal responses so they keep up a strong mental state to prevent negative emotions such as fear and sadness from affecting them when it comes to judgement and actions.

Due to these things I would also say these magic can be name more as Psychology magic as it is designed to use magical energy to influence the behavior of a person no matter their mental state by applying a specific emotion or emotions to override all other types of emotions.

Sykper.6583 · May 19, 2019

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

I think you're misconstruing the fear effect with "fear magic".

It's a bit weird in general, but think of the opposite about 'Courage' and Warrior shouts in general, such as For Great Justice granting Might.

I don't know if the lore in GW is shifting towards words, presences, etc having more magical influence but from an in-game standpoint I can kind of see the connection if I were to stretch it.

Ultimately with the Courage Egg, I think Gorrik was just aiming for maybe inspiration of words in a vain attempt to see if anything works?

Sir Vincent III.1286 · May 20, 2019

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Sir Vincent III.1286 · May 20, 2019

@Sykper.6583 said:
@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

I think you're misconstruing the fear effect with "fear magic".

It's a bit weird in general, but think of the opposite about 'Courage' and Warrior shouts in general, such as For Great Justice granting Might.

I don't know if the lore in GW is shifting towards words, presences, etc having more magical influence but from an in-game standpoint I can kind of see the connection if I were to stretch it.

Ultimately with the Courage Egg, I think Gorrik was just aiming for maybe inspiration of words in a vain attempt to see if anything works?

"fear magic" can be the kind of magic that is mental/emotional manipulation"fear magic" can also be the kind of magic that creates the condition Torment

So my reply to Konig was a misunderstanding on my part, only because he used "fear magic" and I've applied it to a wrong context.

In this case, I do agree that fear magic (torment) is just shadow magic.

Daniel Handler.4816 · May 20, 2019

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

Carlin Sanders.3587 · May 21, 2019

When I think of fear magic I think of what fear does to someone: it gives them doubt, hesitation. living in prolonged periods of fear creates all sorts of mental and emotional problems and in effect can cause someone to wither away. Courage magic, by proxy, would enable opposing effects but if left unchecked can make one reckless and arrogant. Growth would allow one to change and learn, to mold together parts of what they have within along with what they have received from the environment to make a greater whole.

just my two cents.

draxynnic.3719 · May 22, 2019

Given the colour of the fear egg, it's possible that it's pointing towards mesmer magic. The subgroups of mesmer magic (domination, illusion, inspiration) are notably absent from the collection otherwise, and while mesmers don't have the fear condition directly (something I always thought was a bit of an oversight, tbh), a lot of mesmer magic is themed around instilling emotions in the target that causes them to hesitate.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · May 22, 2019

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

When Deadeye uses Fear magic, the effect is Torment.

Daniel Handler.4816 · May 24, 2019

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

When Deadeye uses Fear magic, the effect is Torment.

Deadeye don't have access to torment. Also torment is not fear, it a reaction to mental or physical suffering, something mesmers/necromancers/mallyx can easily do via magic, warrior through injury, and thieves/iboga through venom/poison.

draxynnic.3719 · May 24, 2019

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

When Deadeye uses Fear magic, the effect is Torment.

Deadeye don't have access to torment. Also torment is not fear, it a reaction to mental or physical suffering, something mesmers/necromancers/mallyx can easily do via magic, warrior through injury, and thieves/iboga through venom/poison.

Steal Resistance applies torment, although I'm not sure how that connects to fear. Guild Wars 1 had at least one Torment-like effect that was linked to fear, though.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that, like Confusion, most sources of Torment are magical (and poisons applying Torment may be magical in nature). I wouldn't say that torment = fear magic - since obviously there are nonmagical sources of Torment application and Torment wouldn't be the only form of it, but there could be a connection.

Daniel Handler.4816 · May 25, 2019

@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

When Deadeye uses Fear magic, the effect is Torment.

Deadeye don't have access to torment. Also torment is not fear, it a reaction to mental or physical suffering, something mesmers/necromancers/mallyx can easily do via magic, warrior through injury, and thieves/iboga through venom/poison.

Steal Resistance applies torment, although I'm not sure how that connects to fear. Guild Wars 1 had at least one Torment-like effect that was linked to fear, though.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that, like Confusion,

most

sources of Torment are magical (and poisons applying Torment

may

be magical in nature). I wouldn't say that torment = fear magic - since obviously there are nonmagical sources of Torment application and Torment wouldn't be the only form of it, but there could be a connection.

If fear magic = curses then perhaps. After all fear can't be its only effect, and you could group negative physiological changes and call it fear magic.

And it is because most sources of torment are magical that I think there is no connection. Torment is split across illusions, demonic energy (revenant/scourge), and necromancy. If there was some innate connection you would see it with mesmers, revenants, or the scourge (skills like ghastly breach which mention going into the RoT.)

draxynnic.3719 · May 26, 2019

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

When Deadeye uses Fear magic, the effect is Torment.

Deadeye don't have access to torment. Also torment is not fear, it a reaction to mental or physical suffering, something mesmers/necromancers/mallyx can easily do via magic, warrior through injury, and thieves/iboga through venom/poison.

Steal Resistance applies torment, although I'm not sure how that connects to fear. Guild Wars 1 had at least one Torment-like effect that was linked to fear, though.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that, like Confusion,

most

sources of Torment are magical (and poisons applying Torment

may

be magical in nature). I wouldn't say that torment = fear magic - since obviously there are nonmagical sources of Torment application and Torment wouldn't be the only form of it, but there could be a connection.

If fear magic = curses then perhaps. After all fear can't be its only effect, and you could group negative physiological changes and call it fear magic.

And it is because most sources of torment are magical that I think there is no connection. Torment is split across illusions, demonic energy (revenant/scourge), and necromancy. If there was some innate connection you would see it with mesmers, revenants, or the scourge (skills like ghastly breach which mention going into the RoT.)

Like I said, though, Torment-like effects have been associated with fear in the past. Shameful Fear, an Assassin hex, was a precursor to Torment, as is the effect of the Aspect of Fear in the Deep.

Overall, though, I'd be inclined to point at mesmer. Partly because mesmer magic is otherwise unrepresented in the collection, partly because of the colour associated with the collection (purple = mesmer, when not being used as the colour of evil) and partially because a lot of mesmer hexes in GW1 were themed around instilling an emotion in the target that caused mental distress and/or hindered them from doing something (Arcane Langour, Confusing Images, Conjure Nightmare, Conjure Phantasm, Empathy, Frustration, Guilt, Hypochondria, Images of Remorse, Mistrust, Panic, Recurring Insecurity, Shame, Sum Of All Fears, and Visions of Regret). Given the duality of a lot of the collections, one could hypothesise that courage magic, broadly, deals with magic that promotes emotions that are beneficial to the recipient and promote action, while fear magic broadly deals with magic that promotes emotions that are harmful to the target and inhibit action.

Which mostly brings us back to the mesmer. They don't have the Fear condition specifically (which I've always considered an oversight) but they are probably the profession that makes the strongest use of conditions which apply a punishment that might cause someone to hesitate, whether by discouraging movement (Torment) or skill use (Confusion). In fact, the I think only other professions with access to both are thieves and revs - the former I've generally thought of as being a hybrid using a specialised variant of the mesmer schools of magic anyway, and the latter are a special case due to where their power comes from.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · May 28, 2019

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

When Deadeye uses Fear magic, the effect is Torment.

Deadeye don't have access to torment. Also torment is not fear, it a reaction to mental or physical suffering, something mesmers/necromancers/mallyx can easily do via magic, warrior through injury, and thieves/iboga through venom/poison.

Steal Resistance applies torment, although I'm not sure how that connects to fear. Guild Wars 1 had at least one Torment-like effect that was linked to fear, though.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that, like Confusion,

most

sources of Torment are magical (and poisons applying Torment

may

be magical in nature). I wouldn't say that torment = fear magic - since obviously there are nonmagical sources of Torment application and Torment wouldn't be the only form of it, but there could be a connection.

If fear magic = curses then perhaps. After all fear can't be its only effect, and you could group negative physiological changes and call it fear magic.

And it is because most sources of torment are magical that I think there is no connection.

Torment is split across illusions, demonic energy (revenant/scourge), and necromancy.

If there was some innate connection you would see it with mesmers, revenants, or the scourge (skills like ghastly breach which mention going into the RoT.)

Thief gain access to Torment through Shadow magic.

Daniel Handler.4816 · May 29, 2019

@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

When Deadeye uses Fear magic, the effect is Torment.

Deadeye don't have access to torment. Also torment is not fear, it a reaction to mental or physical suffering, something mesmers/necromancers/mallyx can easily do via magic, warrior through injury, and thieves/iboga through venom/poison.

Steal Resistance applies torment, although I'm not sure how that connects to fear. Guild Wars 1 had at least one Torment-like effect that was linked to fear, though.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that, like Confusion,

most

sources of Torment are magical (and poisons applying Torment

may

be magical in nature). I wouldn't say that torment = fear magic - since obviously there are nonmagical sources of Torment application and Torment wouldn't be the only form of it, but there could be a connection.

If fear magic = curses then perhaps. After all fear can't be its only effect, and you could group negative physiological changes and call it fear magic.

And it is because most sources of torment are magical that I think there is no connection. Torment is split across illusions, demonic energy (revenant/scourge), and necromancy. If there was some innate connection you would see it with mesmers, revenants, or the scourge (skills like ghastly breach which mention going into the RoT.)

Like I said, though, Torment-like effects have been associated with fear in the past. Shameful Fear, an Assassin hex, was a precursor to Torment, as is the effect of the Aspect of Fear in the Deep.

Overall, though, I'd be inclined to point at mesmer. Partly because mesmer magic is otherwise unrepresented in the collection, partly because of the colour associated with the collection (purple = mesmer, when not being used as the colour of evil) and partially because a lot of mesmer hexes in GW1 were themed around instilling an emotion in the target that caused mental distress and/or hindered them from doing something (Arcane Langour, Confusing Images, Conjure Nightmare, Conjure Phantasm, Empathy, Frustration, Guilt, Hypochondria, Images of Remorse, Mistrust, Panic, Recurring Insecurity, Shame, Sum Of All Fears, and Visions of Regret). Given the duality of a lot of the collections, one could hypothesise that courage magic, broadly, deals with magic that promotes emotions that are beneficial to the recipient and promote action, while fear magic broadly deals with magic that promotes emotions that are harmful to the target and inhibit action.

Which mostly brings us back to the mesmer. They don't have the Fear condition specifically (which I've always considered an oversight) but they are probably the profession that makes the strongest use of conditions which apply a punishment that might cause someone to hesitate, whether by discouraging movement (Torment) or skill use (Confusion). In fact, the I think only other professions with access to both are thieves and revs - the former I've generally thought of as being a hybrid using a specialised variant of the mesmer schools of magic anyway, and the latter are a special case due to where their power comes from.

Those hexes may not have persisted into gw2, but their attributes have. A Mesmer's torment and confusion are part of illusion magic, not fear magic.

Also the guardian is confirmed to have combined ritualists, monks, and paragons. Spirit and life were previously known, it seems probable courage is what they took from leadership/command/motivation. Because of this, and the fact they actually have the fear effect, I think fear magic goes with necromancers. It also completes the dualities of:

blood-spirit
death-life
fear-courage

Daniel Handler.4816 · May 29, 2019

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

When Deadeye uses Fear magic, the effect is Torment.

Deadeye don't have access to torment. Also torment is not fear, it a reaction to mental or physical suffering, something mesmers/necromancers/mallyx can easily do via magic, warrior through injury, and thieves/iboga through venom/poison.

Steal Resistance applies torment, although I'm not sure how that connects to fear. Guild Wars 1 had at least one Torment-like effect that was linked to fear, though.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that, like Confusion,

most

sources of Torment are magical (and poisons applying Torment

may

be magical in nature). I wouldn't say that torment = fear magic - since obviously there are nonmagical sources of Torment application and Torment wouldn't be the only form of it, but there could be a connection.

If fear magic = curses then perhaps. After all fear can't be its only effect, and you could group negative physiological changes and call it fear magic.

And it is because most sources of torment are magical that I think there is no connection.

Torment is split across illusions, demonic energy (revenant/scourge), and necromancy.

If there was some innate connection you would see it with mesmers, revenants, or the scourge (skills like ghastly breach which mention going into the RoT.)

Thief gain access to Torment through Shadow magic.

Deadeye: "mastery of shadow magic" also deadeye, no torment.

draxynnic.3719 · May 29, 2019

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Daniel Handler.4816 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.
Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"