Retaliation should be removed.

[claytonmorby.3751]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:But I like it when Eles drop shower and kill themselves.

They need to observe when target has retaliation or not.... they dont want to...

But... with the boon stack n spam.. we all have all boons constantly.

Imo some boons need to be short effects just like quickness is.

When surfing Zergs that is really hard to do. In smaller scale, there is no good excuse.

In smaller scale retal isn't an issue, because it doesn't do near as much damage.

[claytonmorby.3751]

What I think is wild is the ICDs they've added to near everything over the years but retaliation seems to have avoided that.

[Syrus.2174]

@Bish.8627 said:I was running a burn Guardian for a while that focussed on melting groups not paying attention, say for example crowded round a cata not dpsing the walls. Very useful on a server with not a lot of population at times. I alone could hold back a group by spamming burns. The one thing effective against me was retaliation. If more than a few players have it, with like 14k health it could down me within 4 seconds no joke, and as what I mostly used was AOE, there wasn't much I could do against it other than stop, heal and go again, which gives them time to react to me.

I saw ret as a kind of gatekeeper to a potentially broken build, one guy able to destroy an entire group with 8-12k burn ticks, being thwarted by ret so I can't spam.

Well, for that one build it is a gatekeeper in some way. But the usual and appropiate defense against a condi-spammer build like the burn guardian is condi-cleanse and focussing down the usually rather squishy guard applying those conditions. Now, whether a single person should be able to hold back a whole group is another question, personally I think if they just avoid your AEs and focus you, there would not be a problem, even if they lack condition cleansing - it still doesn't justify having a no-brainer boon take care of the work for them, that just means they don't even have to work to counter you, instead continuing to play badly, staying in your AEs while watching you wittle yourself to death on their retaliation.

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:But I like it when Eles drop shower and kill themselves.

They need to observe when target has retaliation or not.... they dont want to...

But... with the boon stack n spam.. we all have all boons constantly.

Imo some boons need to be short effects just like quickness is.

It is nigh impossible to figure out whether or not any target in a blob of players has the boon on themselves or not. Especially if the zerg stacks well and not to mention the amount of boons around and how subpar the UI element for the boons is. Too many uninteresting boons and such on that list, too much movement of the different icons as boons drop off and new ones are added and so on. All other boons just buff the enemy in some way, this one though kills you, especially in groups...

[Yasai.3549]

@"Virdo.1540" said:tbh it should get an rework. Classes with many weaker hits get tons more damage than for example warriors which do 15k hits, or deadeyes etc.

The damage should be calculated by the received damage, not just "200 per hit.

maybe like 15% of the received damage or so.

That would develop alot of bad unhealthy bunker builds.The only thing stopping Retaliation from being an actual fielded build right now is that it scales to Power, and poorly.

The only thing which Retaliation really counters is multihit abuse, such as pew pew rangers, Axe 5s and the occasional idiot StaffEle which drops Meteor on a bunch of people.

It's already possible to build such a build, with a Condi Herald for example.The Condi pressure will burn up the opponent's heals/regens while any counter attacks will trigger Retaliation to chip away at their health.

All they need is to trait Retribution instead of Salvation for the Retaliation on Dodge roll.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Syrus.2174 said:

@Bish.8627 said:I was running a burn Guardian for a while that focussed on melting groups not paying attention, say for example crowded round a cata not dpsing the walls. Very useful on a server with not a lot of population at times. I alone could hold back a group by spamming burns. The one thing effective against me was retaliation. If more than a few players have it, with like 14k health it could down me within 4 seconds no joke, and as what I mostly used was AOE, there wasn't much I could do against it other than stop, heal and go again, which gives them time to react to me.

I saw ret as a kind of gatekeeper to a potentially broken build, one guy able to destroy an entire group with 8-12k burn ticks, being thwarted by ret so I can't spam.

Well, for that one build it is a gatekeeper in some way. But the usual and appropiate defense against a condi-spammer build like the burn guardian is condi-cleanse and focussing down the usually rather squishy guard applying those conditions. Now, whether a single person should be able to hold back a whole group is another question, personally I think if they just avoid your AEs and focus you, there would not be a problem, even if they lack condition cleansing - it still doesn't justify having a no-brainer boon take care of the work for them, that just means they don't even have to work to counter you, instead continuing to play badly, staying in your AEs while watching you wittle yourself to death on their retaliation.

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:But I like it when Eles drop shower and kill themselves.

They need to observe when target has retaliation or not.... they dont want to...

But... with the boon stack n spam.. we all have all boons constantly.

Imo some boons need to be short effects just like quickness is.

It is nigh impossible to figure out whether or not any target in a blob of players has the boon on themselves or not. Especially if the zerg stacks well and not to mention the amount of boons around and how subpar the UI element for the boons is. Too many uninteresting boons and such on that list, too much movement of the different icons as boons drop off and new ones are added and so on. All other boons just buff the enemy in some way, this one though kills you, especially in groups...

The everything is boon or condi effect, it’s more than proven that gw1 boon stance condi hex shout etc system was defacto a superior gameplay when using class mechanics a easier to balance since was impossible to stack most stuff, gw1 also had counters for everything.

Issue is there’s no limit imposed, maybe condi and boon need those limits.I talk condi cause is the counterpart to boon system, as much debufing effect should make more sense.....

[Syrus.2174]

At this point the rebalance update was released and many things were changed and reworked.Retaliation was not affected by the patch.

---

Three more nice examples after the patch, even dug out my dragonhunter.

The last one was actually against only two enemies and not a zerg.

I really disagree with retaliation dominating the damage taken like this.Repeating myself over and over again isn't very helpful, but I felt it necessary to point out these cases, to show how broken this mechanic is.

[LetoII.3782]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Retal is fine, games doesn't need further dumbing down.

A passive response to facetanking attacks isn't as dumbed down as it gets? It might be tactical if it was somewhat limited by cooldowns, but blobs with 100% uptime?