Retaliation should be removed.

[Yasai.3549]

But I like it when Eles drop shower and kill themselves.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

It doesn't need to be removed, it just need to be altered to only effect targets in melee range. Targets outside of say 400 range should not be affected by retal. More-so, retal needs to be completely removed from Guardian and given to another class to spam it on their party. Give it to one of the lesser played group/zerg classes like thief. Let them dump it on their party.

[Raizel.1839]

Only after removing stealth.

[Jski.6180]

The way most effect on attk skill are balanced are for them to have cd per person hit much like auras so you dont have endless stun chills or even burns but in anet wisdom retaliation has no cd per hit making it do much more dmg then it should unless anet wants retaliation to do more dmg then active hits.

There needs to be a massive update to retaliation or it will be the best dps skill in the game.

[RedShark.9548]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:It doesn't need to be removed, it just need to be altered to only effect targets in melee range. Targets outside of say 400 range should not be affected by retal. More-so, retal needs to be completely removed from Guardian and given to another class to spam it on their party. Give it to one of the lesser played group/zerg classes like thief. Let them dump it on their party.

Its the only way a melee profession can punish all those ranged classes picking on them. They already take the risk in going melee, why punish them more

@Mokk.2397 said:I've said this before .Retaliation must be removed completely. Retaliation is a seriously broken mechanic and completely unnecessary.There are plenty of penalties for attacking already .Blocks , evades , interrupts , absorption , stealth ,invulnerability and obstructions are enough.

Uh, the more hits you do the less effective are blinds and blocks like aegis, but the more effective reta gets. So its perfectly fine

[Mokk.2397]

@RedShark.9548 said:

Uh, the more hits you do the less effective are blinds and blocks like aegis, but the more effective reta gets. So its perfectly fine

This is not an adequate argument to keep a broken mechanic.You forgot evades , interrupts , absorption , stealth ,invulnerability and obstructions. Aegis is only one possible counter to taking damage .Get rid of retaliation , it's broken .

[RedShark.9548]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

Uh, the more hits you do the less effective are blinds and blocks like aegis, but the more effective reta gets. So its perfectly fine

This is not an adequate argument to keep a broken mechanic.You forgot evades , interrupts , absorption , stealth ,invulnerability and obstructions. Aegis is only one possible counter to taking damage .Get rid of retaliation , it's broken .

Ive never had any problems with reta, sorry dude. I just have another opinion on that.Use lifesteal on crit food and ask your necro to use vampiric presence, there is counterplay to reta, if you dont use it, not my problem.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

Uh, the more hits you do the less effective are blinds and blocks like aegis, but the more effective reta gets. So its perfectly fine

This is not an adequate argument to keep a broken mechanic.You forgot evades , interrupts , absorption , stealth ,invulnerability and obstructions. Aegis is only one possible counter to taking damage .Get rid of retaliation , it's broken .

Ive never had any problems with reta, sorry dude. I just have another opinion on that.Use lifesteal on crit food and ask your necro to use vampiric presence, there is counterplay to reta, if you dont use it, not my problem.

It doesn't even come close to retaliation. The only true counterplay is to stop attacking. It may work fighting randoms, but not organized stacks with perma-retal uptime. One of the big things this game has a problem with is all the passive traits/damage. Well placed/timed attacks should not do more damage to the attacker, yet that is what retaliation does, it rewards the defender for spamming a boon and standing still.

[Yasai.3549]

@avey.4201 said:Wait, you playing Rev, the class who gets healed for not dodging/face tanking damage, and you playing Ele with unblock-able 1 shot capability/and stacking max boons capability, and we're here talking about someones few stacks retaliation?

He probably went into WvW as Staffbackline Weaver, dropped Shower on a zerg which so happen to have a few dudes who stacked and had Retaliation.

Now imagine his 11k HP healthbar get rekt.

OP deserved it.

[RedShark.9548]

@Ubi.4136 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

Uh, the more hits you do the less effective are blinds and blocks like aegis, but the more effective reta gets. So its perfectly fine

This is not an adequate argument to keep a broken mechanic.You forgot evades , interrupts , absorption , stealth ,invulnerability and obstructions. Aegis is only one possible counter to taking damage .Get rid of retaliation , it's broken .

Ive never had any problems with reta, sorry dude. I just have another opinion on that.Use lifesteal on crit food and ask your necro to use vampiric presence, there is counterplay to reta, if you dont use it, not my problem.

It doesn't even come close to retaliation. The only true counterplay is to stop attacking. It may work fighting randoms, but not organized stacks with perma-retal uptime. One of the big things this game has a problem with is all the passive traits/damage. Well placed/timed attacks should not do more damage to the attacker, yet that is what retaliation does, it rewards the defender for spamming a boon and standing still.

Dude, its the same for the attacking group, if the defendes can manage do coordinate reta and healing to tank a bomb, your group can coordinate lifesteal and healing to counter reta. This thread is ridicilous. Im about to have a stroke.

[Jski.6180]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

Uh, the more hits you do the less effective are blinds and blocks like aegis, but the more effective reta gets. So its perfectly fine

This is not an adequate argument to keep a broken mechanic.You forgot evades , interrupts , absorption , stealth ,invulnerability and obstructions. Aegis is only one possible counter to taking damage .Get rid of retaliation , it's broken .

Ive never had any problems with reta, sorry dude. I just have another opinion on that.Use lifesteal on crit food and ask your necro to use vampiric presence, there is counterplay to reta, if you dont use it, not my problem.

You would be ok removing cd on aura effects? That IS what your suggesting when your saying retaliation has counter play.

[lodjur.1284]

@RedShark.9548 said:Use lifesteal on crit food and ask your necro to use vampiric presence, there is counterplay to reta, if you dont use it, not my problem.

Both of those things are memeworthily bad tho. Doesn't change that taking 20%+ of dmg from passive sources that are unavoidable is bad.

@RedShark.9548 said:Dude, its the same for the attacking group, if the defendes can manage do coordinate reta and healing to tank a bomb, your group can coordinate lifesteal and healing to counter reta. This thread is ridicilous. Im about to have a stroke.

Passive dmg is still the only thing dumber than the defensive procs.

@RedShark.9548 said:Its the only way a melee profession can punish all those ranged classes picking on them. They already take the risk in going melee, why punish them more

Retal doesn't punish range anymore than melee, it punishes AoE multihits, some are ranged like meteor shower, some are melee like overload air or jalis hammers. It doesn't do anything at all against ranged single target, doing like 2k retal to the ranger rapid firing you for 14k+ doesn't help you at all. Reflects/projectile destruction helps melee, retal does nothing.

Vengeful hammers in particular is extra stupid, because it has built in healing to promote the skillful play of hitting multiple enemies with it, but since everyone has retal it actually hurts you much more than it heals.

[RedShark.9548]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Use lifesteal on crit food and ask your necro to use vampiric presence, there is counterplay to reta, if you dont use it, not my problem.

Both of those things are memeworthily bad tho. Doesn't change that taking 20%+ of dmg from passive sources that are unavoidable is bad.

@RedShark.9548 said:Dude, its the same for the attacking group, if the defendes can manage do coordinate reta and healing to tank a bomb, your group can coordinate lifesteal and healing to counter reta. This thread is ridicilous. Im about to have a stroke.

Passive dmg is still the only thing dumber than the defensive procs.

@RedShark.9548 said:Its the only way a melee profession can punish all those ranged classes picking on them. They already take the risk in going melee, why punish them more

Retal doesn't punish range anymore than melee, it punishes AoE multihits, some are ranged like meteor shower, some are melee like overload air or jalis hammers. It doesn't do anything at all against ranged single target, doing like 2k retal to the ranger rapid firing you for 14k+ doesn't help you at all. Reflects/projectile destruction helps melee, retal does nothing.

Vengeful hammers in particular is extra stupid, because it has built in healing to promote the skillful play of hitting multiple enemies with it, but since everyone has retal it actually hurts you much more than it heals.

It does punish ranged more than melee, because ranged can always cast on their enemies, if we are standing in 1200 range you can still hit me, while i cant with my 130 range. Ontop of that do melees usually not hit as many targets as ranged players (jalis being one of the exceptions, but using it in a meleepush, where warriors bubble all the boons away is the moment to activate it, and most ppl in bubble wont have reta), because their range is very small and mostly in a cone in front of your character, while the classes who "suffer" from reta usually have big red circles that hit alot of ppl.

Rapid fire? Well thats still 10hits, proccing reta, if he uses that recklessly into the zerg with piercing multiple ppl it will still hurt him, which is a good thing.

Anyways, this is an endless discussion because ive never had a problem with reta, even when i played necro and ele, i hate the pirateship meta, so having one more boon to stop that kitten playstyle from being popular is a good thing. You dont like it, i get it, but we are going in circles with this.

Maybe dont go full berserker 12k hp ele. Heal on crit, support from other classes, heck you could even use vampirismus rune if you still need more hp and heal 10% of your hp with every kill. Removing reta will dumb down ranged gameplay even further, one less thing to worry about.

Im a fan of reta, doesnt need to be removed, getting hit for 15k in 1 hit is much worse. Bye.

[lodjur.1284]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:Use lifesteal on crit food and ask your necro to use vampiric presence, there is counterplay to reta, if you dont use it, not my problem.

Both of those things are memeworthily bad tho. Doesn't change that taking 20%+ of dmg from passive sources that are unavoidable is bad.

@RedShark.9548 said:Dude, its the same for the attacking group, if the defendes can manage do coordinate reta and healing to tank a bomb, your group can coordinate lifesteal and healing to counter reta. This thread is ridicilous. Im about to have a stroke.

Passive dmg is still the only thing dumber than the defensive procs.

@RedShark.9548 said:Its the only way a melee profession can punish all those ranged classes picking on them. They already take the risk in going melee, why punish them more

Retal doesn't punish range anymore than melee, it punishes AoE multihits, some are ranged like meteor shower, some are melee like overload air or jalis hammers. It doesn't do anything at all against ranged single target, doing like 2k retal to the ranger rapid firing you for 14k+ doesn't help you at all. Reflects/projectile destruction helps melee, retal does nothing.

Vengeful hammers in particular is extra stupid, because it has built in healing to promote the skillful play of hitting multiple enemies with it, but since everyone has retal it actually hurts you much more than it heals.

It does punish ranged more than melee, because ranged can always cast on their enemies, if we are standing in 1200 range you can still hit me, while i cant with my 130 range. Ontop of that do melees usually not hit as many targets as ranged players (jalis being one of the exceptions, but using it in a meleepush, where warriors bubble all the boons away is the moment to activate it, and most ppl in bubble wont have reta), because their range is very small and mostly in a cone in front of your character, while the classes who "suffer" from reta usually have big red circles that hit alot of ppl.

There's more than zerging.

There's no specific class that suffers from retal, everyone in my group has arcdps and retal is never below 15% dmg taken (except for our healer which obviously takes very little retal dmg). This is with noone playing ranged.

On the contrary our outgoing retal dmg is between 2-4%, depending a bit on the fight. This number doesn't go up when fighting stuff like staff eles or rangers.

Rapid fire? Well thats still 10hits, proccing reta, if he uses that recklessly into the zerg with piercing multiple ppl it will still hurt him, which is a good thing.

Unrealistic situation. You wouldn't bring LB ranger to a zerg. On just 1 target the retal dmg is insignificant even from 10 hits.

Anyways, this is an endless discussion because ive never had a problem with reta, even when i played necro and ele, i hate the pirateship meta, so having one more boon to stop that kitten playstyle from being popular is a good thing. You dont like it, i get it, but we are going in circles with this.

It doesn't affect pirateshipping one bit.

Maybe dont go full berserker 12k hp ele. Heal on crit, support from other classes, heck you could even use vampirismus rune if you still need more hp and heal 10% of your hp with every kill. Removing reta will dumb down ranged gameplay even further, one less thing to worry about.

I almost only play tanky melee builds, I don't get instagibbed by it, it just adds up to 20-30% of my dmg taken anyway

We play with a support, we play around retal, doesn't change the fact that taking 20-30% of all your dmg passively is beyond stupid.

Vampirism runes are a joke.Heal on crit is a joke.

Removing retal wouldn't dumb down ranged. It would only make it slightly harder to beat people just by being more people in the area.

If you only zerg you literally wouldn't notice retaliation going away.

Im a fan of reta, doesnt need to be removed, getting hit for 15k in 1 hit is much worse. Bye.

Just cause something else is bad, doesn't make retal good. Falling and breaking your leg still sucks, even if hitting your head and dying would be worse.

I mean I would be 100% okay with adding a minimum range of like 600/900 to it and increasing the damage by 500%, then it would be a deterrent for range attacks, but I doubt that's ever happening

[Revolution.5409]

It would be enough to make it less shareable.

[Syrus.2174]

I don't agree on the range limit for retaliation. At first I was thinking it might be a good idea, but as already pointed out, melee classes already suffer enough punishment. The same would also go for retaliation being avoidable by going out of sight. In my opinion the boon is just overall an unnecessary and gameplay hurting mechanic, which rewards thing that should be punished instead. Just like people complain about having skills that heal on damage taken, rewarding face tanking instead of dodging and evading.

The problem with melees being unable to cope with ranged classes needs to be handled with other measures than a broken boon that hurts some while not others, pratically speaking. More personal (as in, one target) reflects or projectile blocks maybe, though the overall projectile hate is already insane, as I had to find out when I tried a stupid Engineer mortar kind-of build. Retaliation doesn't fix the melee problem per se though, it only makes attacking at all, if you don't have a healer present, pointless and deadly. You can't use sneaky tactics and maneuvering to get around the enemy zerg, ambushing them with a bomb when they aren't paying attention, and pull out when they finally notice you, without taking insane retaliation damage - if they have people spamming that boon, making this kind of game play impossible. And all just because of one passive effect.It takes away from how the enemy has to watch their rear, as any such action turns into pure suicide.

And people proclaiming "don't run full berserker" - even if I were, which I am not, it would not matter in the slightest. A full bomb may not obliterate you completely by just retaliation damage, but you will definitely end up with very, very low HP if the bomb drops well - which is the intention after all. Worse even if the enemy stays in the bombs, and yes, I did have times where I went down even with counterhealing after a perfectly executed bomb. You say, stop attacking - but why, when the enemy is not actively targeting me, should there be a passive effect that makes that necessary? You could just go a step further than and say "stop fighting at all", because at that point fighting back becomes pointless. And another step further, saying "stop playing", because if fighting back is pointless when not bringing the perfect setup, why even play the game if attacking the enemy at all guarantees defeat by the mere action of causing damage, by merely taking the chance of doing some harm to fight off a potentially superior enemy?

It turns WvW into a game of watching the enemy zerg flip objectives without ability to push back, making the game boring for both sides. And all just because some people just do not want to part with one broken mechanic, a simple passive boon with little value elsewhere in the game.

Do tell me, how does it improve the gameplay, in your opinion?I don't see how it specifically helps melee characters. It doesn't force me into melee, it doesn't help them not get hit. It only harms the attacker - but for such, you could just as well run a super tank-bot build with lots of toughness, health and healing and troll the enemy into killing themselves...

[Nup.4591]

Retaliation as a boon is okay. Thorns damage has always been a thing in a lot of games. It's mainly a thing for tanks to counter squishy dps players.It's presence in wvw zergs however is just unfun.

My solution: make it unsharable. This way, it won't be a whole zerg with retal where you kill yourself on by meteor storming it. You might hit the few guards with retal a couple times with the multi hits, but it won't instakill you, like a full zerg with retal would.

And if you compare it to the herald hammer bomb, it would also be more fair. They would get around the same amount of damage from retal as the weaver. As they would hit the few targets with retal about the same. A little less ofcourse, but meteor storm IS a multi hit AoE

Asside from that, classes with the retal boon in smaller scale fights, 1v1 2v2 etc. Won't notice much difference.

So, keep retal, but make it unsharable. ((Or highly limited. Like sharing it with one targeted ally or something))

[Bish.8627]

I was running a burn Guardian for a while that focussed on melting groups not paying attention, say for example crowded round a cata not dpsing the walls. Very useful on a server with not a lot of population at times. I alone could hold back a group by spamming burns. The one thing effective against me was retaliation. If more than a few players have it, with like 14k health it could down me within 4 seconds no joke, and as what I mostly used was AOE, there wasn't much I could do against it other than stop, heal and go again, which gives them time to react to me.

I saw ret as a kind of gatekeeper to a potentially broken build, one guy able to destroy an entire group with 8-12k burn ticks, being thwarted by ret so I can't spam.

[b k.1648]

@lodjur.1284 said:Unrealistic situation. You wouldn't bring LB ranger to a zerg. On just 1 target the retal dmg is insignificant even from 10 hits.

You'd be surprised how many people do.

[DaFishBob.6518]

Retaliation is a power based yet unaffected by toughness and protection.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Yasai.3549 said:But I like it when Eles drop shower and kill themselves.

They need to observe when target has retaliation or not.... they dont want to...

But... with the boon stack n spam.. we all have all boons constantly.

Imo some boons need to be short effects just like quickness is.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:But I like it when Eles drop shower and kill themselves.

They need to observe when target has retaliation or not.... they dont want to...

But... with the boon stack n spam.. we all have all boons constantly.

Imo some boons need to be short effects just like quickness is.

When surfing Zergs that is really hard to do. In smaller scale, there is no good excuse.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

Remove the lazy boon. If the problem it addressed was mindless multi hit skills, address those instead of continuously adding counter upon counter upon counter to the game. It's just kicking the can down the road.

Retaliation needs to go, plain and simple.

[Biermeister.4678]

Retal needs to be a casting skill with a cool down

[Virdo.1540]

tbh it should get an rework. Classes with many weaker hits get tons more damage than for example warriors which do 15k hits, or deadeyes etc.

The damage should be calculated by the received damage, not just "200 per hit.

maybe like 15% of the received damage or so.