Rampage changes.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Reducing damage by 50% would have been sufficient.

They have been doing this to other warrior CC though. See Full Counter. Even that has counter play, still got a heavy nerf, and yet things like malicious backstab are still allowed to exist.

Watch backbreaker, earthshaker, skull crack, shield bash and bull's charge get the same treatment.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Reducing damage by 50% would have been sufficient.

They have been doing this to other warrior CC though. See Full Counter. Even that has counter play, still got a heavy nerf, and yet things like malicious backstab are still allowed to exist.

Watch backbreaker, earthshaker, skull crack, shield bash and bull's charge get the same treatment.

I donno I've moved from thief to warrior cuz of all the thief nerfs it's just spamming the one or two effective skills over and over now aside from being skill full at map rotations and good reaction timing that's all thief is, atleast on warrior u gotta use all the weapon skills in rotations to be most effective which is a breath if fresh air. If they nerf warrior anymore itl just push me away from the small amount i still play to just out right move on to bdo and forget about this mess of a game lol maybe itl get better tho.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Reducing damage by 50% would have been sufficient.

They have been doing this to other warrior CC though. See Full Counter. Even that has counter play, still got a heavy nerf, and yet things like malicious backstab are still allowed to exist.

Watch backbreaker, earthshaker, skull crack, shield bash and bull's charge get the same treatment.

I donno I've moved from thief to warrior cuz of all the thief nerfs it's just spamming the one or two effective skills over and over now aside from being skill full at map rotations and good reaction timing that's all thief is, atleast on warrior u gotta use all the weapon skills in rotations to be most effective which is a breath if fresh air. If they nerf warrior anymore itl just push me away from the small amount i still play to just out right move on to bdo and forget about this mess of a game lol maybe itl get better tho.

Well then for your reference you used to be able to hit with Full Counter like it does in PvE with 2.0 scalling in WvW/PvP, now it has 0.5 scaling in WvW/PvP. Apparently it was too powerful for the noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it.

[Lighter.5631]

I agree with some people in the thread.They allow other super cheesy one shots on other classes to exist, specially core power mes(one shot from stealth and 5 times more survivable then berserker) yet they are so quick to half the damage of arcing divider.The only thing that keeps berserker playable with the most balance between risk and reward compare to other classes. No ports no stealth and -300 toughness feels like paper. Also being the only possible build that’s semi playable without the need to pick discipline.

It didn’t even take one month I believe for them to completely trash the skill without any compensation in pvp.

gw2 balance team so blatantly favors some classes it's unbelievable, there's no way to explain otherwise.

[Sobx.1758]

I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )
Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

[Fueki.4753]

@"Sobx.1758" said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

The problem is, that the changes are not blanket-nerfing everything, causing the nerfed ones to often underperform in comparison to not nerfed ones.

[Sobx.1758]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

The problem is, that the changes are not blanket-nerfing

everything

, causing the nerfed ones to often underperform in comparison to not nerfed ones.

?Either you didn't understand what I wrote or I didn't understand why you answered this to my post in particular.

Do you understand that there's a difference between a skill that deals high burst single-target dmg and a skill that deals high burst dmg on top of its high utility/hard cc?

[Fueki.4753]

@Sobx.1758 said:

Why use Backstab to compare with a Rampage skill then?Backstab, being a Stealth attack, is using as much high utility (possibly even more) as Rampage uses CC.Removing the damage from the CC skills, while not touching Backstab (and other Stealth Attacks) causes Warrior to underperform in that comparison.

[Sobx.1758]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:

Why use Backstab to compare with a Rampage skill then?

Umm... I didn't and that's my point. Did you read the previous posts?

Backstab, being a Stealth attack, is using as much high utility (possibly even more) as Rampage uses CC.

No, it doesn't, backstab has no utility. Stealth is required to use it, but it's not a part of a skill. By your logic any skill is a hard cc skill, because I can use hard cc before dealing dmg. That's not how it works.

Removing the damage from the CC skills, while not touching Backstab (and other Stealth Attacks) causes Warrior to underperform in that comparison.

...no. Just the bare fact that one skill is nerfed and the other isn't doesn't mean the nerfed one "now underperforms". Again, that's not how it works.

To make something clear, I don't think I ever even thought about rampage coefficient needing to be changed to a non-existant one. But currently I'm still not sure that it made it anywhere near bad -pretty sure it's still strong.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"Sobx.1758" said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?

[Fueki.4753]

@"Sobx.1758" said:Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.Your idea of counterplay to stealth is randomly blowing AoEs on cooldown in case their could be a Thief lurking nearby and hoping for a lucky hit?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?

It's an argument over power disparity between a skill that is a prime example of a skill with little to no counter play to a skill that had counter play but gets massively nerfed. I am making no argument in favor of the prior version of Rampage, but this is the Smiter's Boon treatment.

Also backstab is backstab not malicious backstab, but since you mentioned it, they can shadowstep in while in stealth, apply Deadeye's mark and immediately backstab you, so compare that to the former rampage which can be interrupted, blinded, dodged, evaded, blocked, shadow stepped away from, swooped away from, and any or all other forms of disengage/damage mitigation in the 1s that it takes to activate it. But it gets the Smiter's Boon treatment.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?former rampage which can be interrupted, blinded, dodged, evaded, blocked, shadow stepped away from, swooped away from, and any or all other forms of disengage/damage mitigation

And so can the backstab :DIt's pretty funny how you think there was nothing wrong about pre-nerf rampage. Not much to talk about here I guess.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?former rampage which can be interrupted, blinded, dodged, evaded, blocked, shadow stepped away from, swooped away from, and any or all other forms of disengage/damage mitigation

And so can the backstab :DIt's pretty funny how you think there was nothing wrong about pre-nerf rampage. Not much to talk about here I guess.

Except backstab requires stealth, and a good thief will get into stealth and wait to strike when backstab won't be mitigated.

You're also ignoring where I explicitly stated that I am making no argument in favor of the old Rampage.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?former rampage which can be interrupted, blinded, dodged, evaded, blocked, shadow stepped away from, swooped away from, and any or all other forms of disengage/damage mitigation

And so can the backstab :DIt's pretty funny how you think there was nothing wrong about pre-nerf rampage. Not much to talk about here I guess.

Except backstab requires stealth, and a good thief will get into stealth and wait to strike when backstab won't be mitigated.

Yeah, because perma stealth thief builds are super strong. And if you're talking about a mid-fight 2-4 second stealth then, uh, I guess keep doing nothing, whatever you like. :D

You're also ignoring where I explicitly stated that I am making no argument in favor of the old Rampage.

Sure... and yet the fragment of your post I quoted in my previous answer was strictly about the pre-nerf rampage, right? Seems like you're saying you're not making an argument in favor of the old rampage but at the same time you're actually trying to make one. What am I missing here?

Overally if backstab is so kitten broken with no counterplay and it oneshots warriors from out-of-screen stealth while freely shadowstepping in 24/7, then I'm seriously wondering why aren't you playing it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?former rampage which can be interrupted, blinded, dodged, evaded, blocked, shadow stepped away from, swooped away from, and any or all other forms of disengage/damage mitigation

And so can the backstab :DIt's pretty funny how you think there was nothing wrong about pre-nerf rampage. Not much to talk about here I guess.

Except backstab requires stealth, and a good thief will get into stealth and wait to strike when backstab won't be mitigated.

Yeah, because perma stealth thief builds are super strong. And if you're talking about a mid-fight 2-4 second stealth then, uh, I guess keep doing nothing, whatever you like. :D

You're also ignoring where I explicitly stated that I am making no argument in favor of the old Rampage.

Sure... and yet the fragment of your post I quoted in my previous answer was strictly about the pre-nerf rampage, right? Seems like you're

saying

you're not making an argument in favor of the old rampage but at the same time you're actually trying to make one. What am I missing here?

Overally if backstab is so kitten broken with no counterplay and it oneshots warriors from out-of-screen stealth while freely shadowstepping in 24/7, then I'm seriously wondering why aren't you playing it.

What I think you are missing is what I mentioned within said post. That there is a disparity, perhaps selective, between what gets nerfed even when it has vast counterplay versus what is allowed to persist that does not have the same amount of counter play.

Anet pushed measures to lower TTK on the one hand, but on the other nerfed strong traits and skills that had ways to play around them. So here we are with FC and Rampage nerfed, and I make no arguement in their prior versions favor other than they had obvious counterplay, but other abilities that are more egregious on the power scale and lack of counterplay remain as they were.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?former rampage which can be interrupted, blinded, dodged, evaded, blocked, shadow stepped away from, swooped away from, and any or all other forms of disengage/damage mitigation

And so can the backstab :DIt's pretty funny how you think there was nothing wrong about pre-nerf rampage. Not much to talk about here I guess.

Except backstab requires stealth, and a good thief will get into stealth and wait to strike when backstab won't be mitigated.

Yeah, because perma stealth thief builds are super strong. And if you're talking about a mid-fight 2-4 second stealth then, uh, I guess keep doing nothing, whatever you like. :D

You're also ignoring where I explicitly stated that I am making no argument in favor of the old Rampage.

Sure... and yet the fragment of your post I quoted in my previous answer was strictly about the pre-nerf rampage, right? Seems like you're

saying

you're not making an argument in favor of the old rampage but at the same time you're actually trying to make one. What am I missing here?

Overally if backstab is so kitten broken with no counterplay and it oneshots warriors from out-of-screen stealth while freely shadowstepping in 24/7, then I'm seriously wondering why aren't you playing it.

What I think you are missing is what I mentioned within said post. That there is a disparity, perhaps selective, between what gets nerfed even when it has vast counterplay versus what is allowed to persist that does not have the same amount of counter play.

Anet pushed measures to lower TTK on the one hand, but on the other nerfed strong traits and skills that had ways to play around them. So here we are with FC and Rampage nerfed, and I make no arguement in their prior versions favor other than they had obvious counterplay, but other abilities that are more egregious on the power scale and lack of counterplay remain as they were.

Ok.It's not a disparity (if you mean that in the context of unfairness in nerfing the dmg?) because these skills do different things. One provides single target burst damage from specific position and literally nothing else; the other one(s) have strong utility and -from what I think/understand- that's the reason their damage got nerfed. Because their utility is already strong enough to not burst people down for free on top of that.

Also all of the counterplays listed by you in that post work against backstab as well. Yes, you can say that if backstab can be counterplayed, then time it better. And that's literally what I'm saying about FC/ramp.

Again, if you're so adamant with your claim about backstab being uncounterable out-of-screen oneshot skill, then why aren't you abusing it? Why isn't everyone abusing it? From what you're saying it's literally a free win against anything. Then lead by example and abuse it until it gets nerfed to be 10 damage out of stealth that does nothing else, because apparently that's the skill equivalent to FC/rampage. This whole comparison you(?) brought up is insane to me.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?former rampage which can be interrupted, blinded, dodged, evaded, blocked, shadow stepped away from, swooped away from, and any or all other forms of disengage/damage mitigation

And so can the backstab :DIt's pretty funny how you think there was nothing wrong about pre-nerf rampage. Not much to talk about here I guess.

Except backstab requires stealth, and a good thief will get into stealth and wait to strike when backstab won't be mitigated.

Yeah, because perma stealth thief builds are super strong. And if you're talking about a mid-fight 2-4 second stealth then, uh, I guess keep doing nothing, whatever you like. :D

You're also ignoring where I explicitly stated that I am making no argument in favor of the old Rampage.

Sure... and yet the fragment of your post I quoted in my previous answer was strictly about the pre-nerf rampage, right? Seems like you're

saying

you're not making an argument in favor of the old rampage but at the same time you're actually trying to make one. What am I missing here?

Overally if backstab is so kitten broken with no counterplay and it oneshots warriors from out-of-screen stealth while freely shadowstepping in 24/7, then I'm seriously wondering why aren't you playing it.

What I think you are missing is what I mentioned within said post. That there is a disparity, perhaps selective, between what gets nerfed even when it has vast counterplay versus what is allowed to persist that does not have the same amount of counter play.

Anet pushed measures to lower TTK on the one hand, but on the other nerfed strong traits and skills that had ways to play around them. So here we are with FC and Rampage nerfed, and I make no arguement in their prior versions favor other than they had obvious counterplay, but other abilities that are more egregious on the power scale and lack of counterplay remain as they were.

Ok.It's not a disparity (if you mean that in the context of unfairness in nerfing the dmg?) because these skills do different things. One provides single target burst damage from specific position and literally nothing else; the other one(s) have strong utility and -from what I think/understand- that's the reason their damage got nerfed. Because their utility is already strong enough to not burst people down for free on top of that.

Also all of the counterplays listed by you in that post work against backstab as well. Yes, you can say that if backstab can be counterplayed, then time it better. And that's literally what I'm saying about FC/ramp.

I think this is one of those cases where you and I will just end up in a circular back and forth at this point.

Again, if you're so adamant with your claim about backstab being uncounterable out-of-screen oneshot skill, then why aren't you abusing it? Why isn't everyone abusing it? From what you're saying it's literally a free win against anything. Then lead by example and abuse it until it gets nerfed to be 10 damage out of stealth that does nothing else, because apparently that's the skill equivalent to FC/rampage. This whole comparison you(?) brought up is insane to me.

Maybe I like to Warrior better than Thief? That's how preferences work. Same as anybody else.

[Sobx.1758]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?former rampage which can be interrupted, blinded, dodged, evaded, blocked, shadow stepped away from, swooped away from, and any or all other forms of disengage/damage mitigation

And so can the backstab :DIt's pretty funny how you think there was nothing wrong about pre-nerf rampage. Not much to talk about here I guess.

Except backstab requires stealth, and a good thief will get into stealth and wait to strike when backstab won't be mitigated.

Yeah, because perma stealth thief builds are super strong. And if you're talking about a mid-fight 2-4 second stealth then, uh, I guess keep doing nothing, whatever you like. :D

You're also ignoring where I explicitly stated that I am making no argument in favor of the old Rampage.

Sure... and yet the fragment of your post I quoted in my previous answer was strictly about the pre-nerf rampage, right? Seems like you're

saying

you're not making an argument in favor of the old rampage but at the same time you're actually trying to make one. What am I missing here?

Overally if backstab is so kitten broken with no counterplay and it oneshots warriors from out-of-screen stealth while freely shadowstepping in 24/7, then I'm seriously wondering why aren't you playing it.

What I think you are missing is what I mentioned within said post. That there is a disparity, perhaps selective, between what gets nerfed even when it has vast counterplay versus what is allowed to persist that does not have the same amount of counter play.

Anet pushed measures to lower TTK on the one hand, but on the other nerfed strong traits and skills that had ways to play around them. So here we are with FC and Rampage nerfed, and I make no arguement in their prior versions favor other than they had obvious counterplay, but other abilities that are more egregious on the power scale and lack of counterplay remain as they were.

Ok.It's not a disparity (if you mean that in the context of unfairness in nerfing the dmg?) because these skills do different things. One provides single target burst damage from specific position and literally nothing else; the other one(s) have strong utility and -from what I think/understand- that's the reason their damage got nerfed. Because their utility is already strong enough to not burst people down for free on top of that.

Also all of the counterplays listed by you in that post work against backstab as well. Yes, you can say that if backstab can be counterplayed, then time it better. And that's literally what I'm saying about FC/ramp.

I think this is one of those cases where you and I will just end up in a circular back and forth at this point.

Yeaaah, seems like it :p

There's some unofficial news about a big patch they're planning on (not sure if it's both for wvw and pvp) and anet says they're looking into reducing hard cc skills' dmg on a bigger scale. On the other hand there's also something about reducing 'big instantanious damage'. So lets see what they'll do with that.

Again, if you're so adamant with your claim about backstab being uncounterable out-of-screen oneshot skill, then why aren't you abusing it? Why isn't everyone abusing it? From what you're saying it's literally a free win against anything. Then lead by example and abuse it until it gets nerfed to be 10 damage out of stealth that does nothing else, because apparently that's the skill equivalent to FC/rampage. This whole comparison you(?) brought up is insane to me.

Maybe I like to Warrior better than Thief? That's how preferences work. Same as anybody else.

That's fine, it is a good enough reason. But I also think that you didn't really play thief too much and your idea about uncounterable easy backstab oneshots is pretty one-sided. I easly might be wrong though and maybe you've tried it, kept one-shotting people and still didn't like it. Seems to me that if what you're claiming was true, it would be abused way more than it is now (if it even is abused atm). w/e, we can agree to disagree.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Sobx.1758 said:Yeaaah, seems like it :p

There's some unofficial news about a big patch they're planning on (not sure if it's both for wvw and pvp) and anet says they're looking into reducing hard cc skills' dmg on a bigger scale. On the other hand there's also something about reducing 'big instantanious damage'. So lets see what they'll do with that.

Well, ramping down damage across the board is fine, I just don't want it to feel lop sided. If they do lower damage across the board I wonder if they will do the same with condi and boons? We might get to a point where the base chasis of the classes starts to matter a great deal more than they do now.

Maybe I like to Warrior better than Thief? That's how preferences work. Same as anybody else.

That's fine, it is a good enough reason. But I also think that you didn't really play thief too much and your idea about uncounterable easy backstab oneshots is pretty one-sided. I easly might be wrong though and maybe you've tried it, kept one-shotting people and still didn't like it. Seems to me that if what you're claiming was true, it would be abused way more than it is now (if it even is abused atm). w/e, we can agree to disagree.

I play every class. I've never liked how glassy thief felt, but it is one of those classes that if you play it well you can set up your victory prior to the first attack hitting. Memebeast is very similar in that regard, and yes I do very much enjoy pew pewing it out on my Soulbeast when I dust her off. But, I've always preferred Warrior even in GW1. Just more of my jam.

[RedShark.9548]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?former rampage which can be interrupted, blinded, dodged, evaded, blocked, shadow stepped away from, swooped away from, and any or all other forms of disengage/damage mitigation

And so can the backstab :DIt's pretty funny how you think there was nothing wrong about pre-nerf rampage. Not much to talk about here I guess.

Except backstab requires stealth, and a good thief will get into stealth and wait to strike when backstab won't be mitigated.

Yeah, because perma stealth thief builds are super strong. And if you're talking about a mid-fight 2-4 second stealth then, uh, I guess keep doing nothing, whatever you like. :D

You're also ignoring where I explicitly stated that I am making no argument in favor of the old Rampage.

Sure... and yet the fragment of your post I quoted in my previous answer was strictly about the pre-nerf rampage, right? Seems like you're

saying

you're not making an argument in favor of the old rampage but at the same time you're actually trying to make one. What am I missing here?

Overally if backstab is so kitten broken with no counterplay and it oneshots warriors from out-of-screen stealth while freely shadowstepping in 24/7, then I'm seriously wondering why aren't you playing it.

What I think you are missing is what I mentioned within said post. That there is a disparity, perhaps selective, between what gets nerfed even when it has vast counterplay versus what is allowed to persist that does not have the same amount of counter play.

Anet pushed measures to lower TTK on the one hand, but on the other nerfed strong traits and skills that had ways to play around them. So here we are with FC and Rampage nerfed, and I make no arguement in their prior versions favor other than they had obvious counterplay, but other abilities that are more egregious on the power scale and lack of counterplay remain as they were.

Ok.It's not a disparity (if you mean that in the context of unfairness in nerfing the dmg?) because these skills do different things. One provides single target burst damage from specific position and literally nothing else; the other one(s) have strong utility and -from what I think/understand- that's the reason their damage got nerfed. Because their utility is already strong enough to not burst people down for free on top of that.

Also all of the counterplays listed by you in that post work against backstab as well. Yes, you can say that if backstab can be counterplayed, then time it better. And that's literally what I'm saying about FC/ramp.

I think this is one of those cases where you and I will just end up in a circular back and forth at this point.

Yeaaah, seems like it :p

There's some unofficial news about a big patch they're planning on (not sure if it's both for wvw and pvp) and anet says they're looking into reducing hard cc skills' dmg on a bigger scale. On the other hand there's also something about reducing 'big instantanious damage'. So lets see what they'll do with that.

Again, if you're so adamant with your claim about backstab being uncounterable out-of-screen oneshot skill, then why aren't you abusing it? Why isn't everyone abusing it? From what you're saying it's literally a free win against anything. Then lead by example and abuse it until it gets nerfed to be 10 damage out of stealth that does nothing else, because apparently that's the skill equivalent to FC/rampage. This whole comparison you(?) brought up is insane to me.

Maybe I like to Warrior better than Thief? That's how preferences work. Same as anybody else.

That's fine, it is a good enough reason. But I also think that you didn't really play thief too much and your idea about uncounterable easy backstab oneshots is pretty one-sided. I easly might be wrong though and maybe you've tried it, kept one-shotting people and still didn't like it. Seems to me that if what you're claiming was true, it would be abused way more than it is now (if it even is abused atm). w/e, we can agree to disagree.

To be fair it does feel cheesy that thief doesnt get revealed after a missed backstab attempt.Seeing a single evade note on the screen feels so good, but thieves are still in stealth and get a second chance for it...Even when blocked. Youd think that hammering a dagger into a shield would reveal you instantly lol

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I love when people constantly cry about too much damage in the game but at any sign of dmg nerf they declare anet bias against x class and the class becoming unplayable. (there's a tiny possibility those are different people, but I don't care enough to check :( )

Comparing bursty FC or rampage to backstab isn't exactly a perfect fit either considering additional things those skills do, which most probably is also a reason for the nerfs -not the isolated damage, but the damage on top of crapton of utility.Aaaand calling people "noobs that kept letting themselves get killed by it" while at the same time complaining about backstab is ironic to me but ok :D

You kind of evading the point that a Backstab can come from off screen with you being unaware of it happening where as FC is something that the opponent has to proc for you, and is dodgeable. Even Rampage can be kitted or blinded, and is what most people do to mitigate it. Things like Backstab don't have that counterplay other than Defy Pain if you have it traited, or a twitchy finger on Endure Pain.

I'm not evading anything about it, at least not intentionally. How many times have you been hit with an "off screen backstab" this week? This month? Not to mention you can't be hit with "offscreen" malicious backstab, because you need to be marked/hit before stealth to actually gain malice. Also stealth gives invisibility, not invulnerability/stability. You can hit your aoes easier than thief can hit his backstab. FC "needs to be procced" if you use it with a bad timing, otherwise it's pretty much already procced on use.

Anyways -are you trying to tell me nothing was wrong with rampage in its previous form? And are you saying that it's useless -or even close to useless- now?former rampage which can be interrupted, blinded, dodged, evaded, blocked, shadow stepped away from, swooped away from, and any or all other forms of disengage/damage mitigation

And so can the backstab :DIt's pretty funny how you think there was nothing wrong about pre-nerf rampage. Not much to talk about here I guess.

Except backstab requires stealth, and a good thief will get into stealth and wait to strike when backstab won't be mitigated.

Yeah, because perma stealth thief builds are super strong. And if you're talking about a mid-fight 2-4 second stealth then, uh, I guess keep doing nothing, whatever you like. :D

You're also ignoring where I explicitly stated that I am making no argument in favor of the old Rampage.

Sure... and yet the fragment of your post I quoted in my previous answer was strictly about the pre-nerf rampage, right? Seems like you're

saying

you're not making an argument in favor of the old rampage but at the same time you're actually trying to make one. What am I missing here?

Overally if backstab is so kitten broken with no counterplay and it oneshots warriors from out-of-screen stealth while freely shadowstepping in 24/7, then I'm seriously wondering why aren't you playing it.

What I think you are missing is what I mentioned within said post. That there is a disparity, perhaps selective, between what gets nerfed even when it has vast counterplay versus what is allowed to persist that does not have the same amount of counter play.

Anet pushed measures to lower TTK on the one hand, but on the other nerfed strong traits and skills that had ways to play around them. So here we are with FC and Rampage nerfed, and I make no arguement in their prior versions favor other than they had obvious counterplay, but other abilities that are more egregious on the power scale and lack of counterplay remain as they were.

Ok.It's not a disparity (if you mean that in the context of unfairness in nerfing the dmg?) because these skills do different things. One provides single target burst damage from specific position and literally nothing else; the other one(s) have strong utility and -from what I think/understand- that's the reason their damage got nerfed. Because their utility is already strong enough to not burst people down for free on top of that.

Also all of the counterplays listed by you in that post work against backstab as well. Yes, you can say that if backstab can be counterplayed, then time it better. And that's literally what I'm saying about FC/ramp.

I think this is one of those cases where you and I will just end up in a circular back and forth at this point.

Yeaaah, seems like it :p

There's some unofficial news about a big patch they're planning on (not sure if it's both for wvw and pvp) and anet says they're looking into reducing hard cc skills' dmg on a bigger scale. On the other hand there's also something about reducing 'big instantanious damage'. So lets see what they'll do with that.

Again, if you're so adamant with your claim about backstab being uncounterable out-of-screen oneshot skill, then why aren't you abusing it? Why isn't everyone abusing it? From what you're saying it's literally a free win against anything. Then lead by example and abuse it until it gets nerfed to be 10 damage out of stealth that does nothing else, because apparently that's the skill equivalent to FC/rampage. This whole comparison you(?) brought up is insane to me.

Maybe I like to Warrior better than Thief? That's how preferences work. Same as anybody else.

That's fine, it is a good enough reason. But I also think that you didn't really play thief too much and your idea about uncounterable easy backstab oneshots is pretty one-sided. I easly might be wrong though and maybe you've tried it, kept one-shotting people and still didn't like it. Seems to me that if what you're claiming was true, it would be abused way more than it is now (if it even is abused atm). w/e, we can agree to disagree.

To be fair it does feel cheesy that thief doesnt get revealed after a missed backstab attempt.Seeing a single evade note on the screen feels so good, but thieves are still in stealth and get a second chance for it...Even when blocked. Youd think that hammering a dagger into a shield would reveal you instantly lol

Maybe that will make it into whatever this big update will be?

[Fueki.4753]

@RedShark.9548 said:To be fair it does feel cheesy that thief doesnt get revealed after a missed backstab attempt.Seeing a single evade note on the screen feels so good, but thieves are still in stealth and get a second chance for it...Even when blocked. Youd think that hammering a dagger into a shield would reveal you instantly lol

This problem could be solved if the use of any skill during stealth removed stealth, not only successful attacks.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:To be fair it does feel cheesy that thief doesnt get revealed after a missed backstab attempt.Seeing a single evade note on the screen feels so good, but thieves are still in stealth and get a second chance for it...Even when blocked. Youd think that hammering a dagger into a shield would reveal you instantly lol

This problem could be solved if the use of

any

skill during stealth removed stealth, not only successful attacks.

Kind of makes sense that using a skill would break stealth.