Mirage Tradeoff

[Koen.1327]

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Xervite.5493" said:Wait I don't get it, why are you people after IH? How different is the espec mirage from its core spec mesmer without IH? I've hardly used mirage but without IH I see no reason to use the spec.

IH is and was the only overperforming thing cmirage gad.they took away EVERYTHING exept it lol. and its still gonna be there, still overperforming.

you mean the clone ambushes on condi mirage are op right? because ih doesnt have anything to do with how strong ambushes are. what ambushes do and how strong they are is only based in the ambush skill design itself. you can just nerf the too strong ambushes either from the mesmer itself or from clones to solve problems with ambush dmg. that is also the reason a clone cap of 2 as a trade-off makes way more sense, since this change rly is directed to the problem mirage has (on condi at least), it reduces the dmg spam from clone ambushes. and the best thing is: it does it without deleting active combo potential you have on power mirage from ambushes/ ih. it only will nerf a bit of gs dmg what is acceptable. but on gs and sword it wasnt the best play to spam 3 clones for their ambush dmg or ambush effect without shattering anyway because on power mirage shatters are still more rewarding than spamming clone ambush dmg which is not that high. on gs it is more the ambush of the mesmer itself could get a bit of a dmg reduction (what will happen with next patch anyway and even better when they also add a dmg redcution to superior complex trait, since sc is what makes split surge from the mirage itself crit spike up to over 10k on a single target sometimes and also lead to insane high dmg spikes from 7k+mw, too high dmg on phantams and mb and that on all mesmer specs not only mirage).

particularly the synergy of deceptive evasion with IH is extremely strong and couldve been targeted a long time ago instead of other nerfs

ih is a dodge trait (adds a reward to the dodge aside from simple evading an attack), all dodge traits need for several reasons to work on each dodge, at least that is how they work on other classes like warrior or engi for example, right?other dodgetraits also dont have a delay on the effect or the need that the player prepares the dodge in a way to make the dodge trait function, an engi/ warrior dodges and the trait effect activates just by pressing dodge, right? their dodge trait works no matter how many adrenaline a warrior has build up before, they work without the engi needs to use another weaponskill before the dodge, right?

now lets look at what ih does without de and without a clone up you have to create BEFORE dodging from using weaponskills: nothing! wowzi! i want that!

so without de ih will be the one and only dodge trait in the game not working on every dodge without preloaded actions from the player. is that fair? that mesmer either has a big delay on the dodgetrait (cannot just dodge when needed because if you dont have a clone up already ih does nothing) or needs to use another trait to make ih work like every other dodge trait in the game? giving up superior complex or ineptitude just to have a dodge trait equally to other dodge traits in the game? what you call good synergy i call a trade-off. but it is ok since mirage has to have that trade-off because of the other strong mechanics it has. but there lit. is nothing to nerf, it is already a trade-off and not a strong synergy.

a strong synergy between a dodge trait and another trait would be when warrior has a trait in defense line like: everytime you hit a target with unblockable dmg you gain protection for x secs - that i call a good synergy because that means everytime warrior hits a target with his dodge trait dmg he also gets protection in addition. that is a plus, that could be nerfed to not have double reward for one dodge (dmg+protection).

now mirage gets another trade-off because some mirage builds are still too strong. fine, no problem. just that the planned trade-off is completely contradicting the mirage nature by overnerfing the resource it needs to even funtion in a skillful way. cool dat!

some dodge traits trigger at beginning, some at the endit wouldn't be "the one and only dodge" that functions at the end - although clone production at landing position is weird af.

ih + de combo has brought nothing but spammy gameplay - nothing fair about thiscould've trashed ih over core traits in the past for healthier gameplay

no you missunderstood, maybe i explained it bad, lets try again: ih doesnt trigger at all without a clone. mirage either uses de in addition so the dodge trait triggers at all on every dodge or they have dodges where they dont have clones up and where ih does straight nothing. or they have to cast a weapon or utility skill to create a clone before dodging. no other dodge trait requised another weaponskill to use before they dodge to trigger the dodge trait, no other dodge trait in the whole game requires to use a second trait to function like every other dodge trait does with only using one trait for it.

when you think ih (with and without de) is only passive then i rly have no words anymore, you then rly didnt understand mirage mechanics in its fundamentals. but it explains why some ppl in ffa arena give me flame whispers about getting "random interrupted" by a daze clone during i was on purpose actively dodging on sword without being pressured just to make the clone hit them right on time by predicting their heal use. they dont even get that they just got actively and tactical outplayed and they dont know how to counterplay that because they have no idea how mirage works. thx i learnd something (no sarcasm), maybe next time when someone got outplayed by my 2 utility skills, roaming +1 squishy powerbuild in duels i will offer help and practise to understand mirage more instead getting sad myself when i get toxic whispers.but on the other side ppl even cry about core powershatter with no pu, without massive use of stealthskills, pure glass cannon when i even give them the ability to fairly fight me by not attacking them out of stealth, so … dunno what to tell or teach those ppl when they even miss basics they could have easily learned already by watching some guides. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

if the one dodge change goes through mirage will be dead anyway so no need to have a dispute over a dead horse i guess, the first what gets impossible are active outplays by using endurance pure offensive because of that overnerfed resource. that is for suuuure the best way to nerf too high passive condi spam on clones during defensive dodges. way better then just nerfing the dmg on the too strong ambushes from clones on condimes right? better butcher the whole spec and all his skill ceiling for it. \o/

its already like that - if you dont equip de it's not triggering ih like you said (although it does if you have phantasm up, or miniature lol)ih would just not work on the clone generated by de, works for everything else (my suggestion)

im not saying ih is only passive, but it's extremely spammy combined with denothing active about the current meta mirage btw- brought to you by ih+de with heavy nerfs to shatter gameplay

[viquing.8254]

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Xervite.5493" said:Wait I don't get it, why are you people after IH? How different is the espec mirage from its core spec mesmer without IH? I've hardly used mirage but without IH I see no reason to use the spec.

IH is and was the only overperforming thing cmirage gad.they took away EVERYTHING exept it lol. and its still gonna be there, still overperforming.

you mean the clone ambushes on condi mirage are op right? because ih doesnt have anything to do with how strong ambushes are. what ambushes do and how strong they are is only based in the ambush skill design itself. you can just nerf the too strong ambushes either from the mesmer itself or from clones to solve problems with ambush dmg. that is also the reason a clone cap of 2 as a trade-off makes way more sense, since this change rly is directed to the problem mirage has (on condi at least), it reduces the dmg spam from clone ambushes. and the best thing is: it does it without deleting active combo potential you have on power mirage from ambushes/ ih. it only will nerf a bit of gs dmg what is acceptable. but on gs and sword it wasnt the best play to spam 3 clones for their ambush dmg or ambush effect without shattering anyway because on power mirage shatters are still more rewarding than spamming clone ambush dmg which is not that high. on gs it is more the ambush of the mesmer itself could get a bit of a dmg reduction (what will happen with next patch anyway and even better when they also add a dmg redcution to superior complex trait, since sc is what makes split surge from the mirage itself crit spike up to over 10k on a single target sometimes and also lead to insane high dmg spikes from 7k+mw, too high dmg on phantams and mb and that on all mesmer specs not only mirage).

particularly the synergy of deceptive evasion with IH is extremely strong and couldve been targeted a long time ago instead of other nerfs

ih is a dodge trait (adds a reward to the dodge aside from simple evading an attack), all dodge traits need for several reasons to work on each dodge, at least that is how they work on other classes like warrior or engi for example, right?other dodgetraits also dont have a delay on the effect or the need that the player prepares the dodge in a way to make the dodge trait function, an engi/ warrior dodges and the trait effect activates just by pressing dodge, right? their dodge trait works no matter how many adrenaline a warrior has build up before, they work without the engi needs to use another weaponskill before the dodge, right?

now lets look at what ih does without de and without a clone up you have to create BEFORE dodging from using weaponskills: nothing! wowzi! i want that!

so without de ih will be the one and only dodge trait in the game not working on every dodge without preloaded actions from the player. is that fair? that mesmer either has a big delay on the dodgetrait (cannot just dodge when needed because if you dont have a clone up already ih does nothing) or needs to use another trait to make ih work like every other dodge trait in the game? giving up superior complex or ineptitude just to have a dodge trait equally to other dodge traits in the game? what you call good synergy i call a trade-off. but it is ok since mirage has to have that trade-off because of the other strong mechanics it has. but there lit. is nothing to nerf, it is already a trade-off and not a strong synergy.

a strong synergy between a dodge trait and another trait would be when warrior has a trait in defense line like: everytime you hit a target with unblockable dmg you gain protection for x secs - that i call a good synergy because that means everytime warrior hits a target with his dodge trait dmg he also gets protection in addition. that is a plus, that could be nerfed to not have double reward for one dodge (dmg+protection).

now mirage gets another trade-off because some mirage builds are still too strong. fine, no problem. just that the planned trade-off is completely contradicting the mirage nature by overnerfing the resource it needs to even funtion in a skillful way. cool dat!

some dodge traits trigger at beginning, some at the endit wouldn't be "the one and only dodge" that functions at the end - although clone production at landing position is weird af.

ih + de combo has brought nothing but spammy gameplay - nothing fair about thiscould've trashed ih over core traits in the past for healthier gameplay

Sorry but it's more the fact than they nerf all active way to do damage : shatters, weapon. Because of plethora of whine, to only leave passive clone application as choice to do damage than the opposite....Mean Blinding dissipation and ineptitude were more active, now why will you choose a GM who does 2 confusion during 2 second for 304 damage on skill use on 3 sec CD ???Even by taking MoD and making a rupt gameplay around it it's not worth it....

EDIT : I just read your last post : like you said :

nothing active about the current meta mirage btw- brought to you by ih+de with heavy nerfs to shatter gameplay

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Xervite.5493" said:Wait I don't get it, why are you people after IH? How different is the espec mirage from its core spec mesmer without IH? I've hardly used mirage but without IH I see no reason to use the spec.

IH is and was the only overperforming thing cmirage gad.they took away EVERYTHING exept it lol. and its still gonna be there, still overperforming.

you mean the clone ambushes on condi mirage are op right? because ih doesnt have anything to do with how strong ambushes are. what ambushes do and how strong they are is only based in the ambush skill design itself. you can just nerf the too strong ambushes either from the mesmer itself or from clones to solve problems with ambush dmg. that is also the reason a clone cap of 2 as a trade-off makes way more sense, since this change rly is directed to the problem mirage has (on condi at least), it reduces the dmg spam from clone ambushes. and the best thing is: it does it without deleting active combo potential you have on power mirage from ambushes/ ih. it only will nerf a bit of gs dmg what is acceptable. but on gs and sword it wasnt the best play to spam 3 clones for their ambush dmg or ambush effect without shattering anyway because on power mirage shatters are still more rewarding than spamming clone ambush dmg which is not that high. on gs it is more the ambush of the mesmer itself could get a bit of a dmg reduction (what will happen with next patch anyway and even better when they also add a dmg redcution to superior complex trait, since sc is what makes split surge from the mirage itself crit spike up to over 10k on a single target sometimes and also lead to insane high dmg spikes from 7k+mw, too high dmg on phantams and mb and that on all mesmer specs not only mirage).

particularly the synergy of deceptive evasion with IH is extremely strong and couldve been targeted a long time ago instead of other nerfs

ih is a dodge trait (adds a reward to the dodge aside from simple evading an attack), all dodge traits need for several reasons to work on each dodge, at least that is how they work on other classes like warrior or engi for example, right?other dodgetraits also dont have a delay on the effect or the need that the player prepares the dodge in a way to make the dodge trait function, an engi/ warrior dodges and the trait effect activates just by pressing dodge, right? their dodge trait works no matter how many adrenaline a warrior has build up before, they work without the engi needs to use another weaponskill before the dodge, right?

now lets look at what ih does without de and without a clone up you have to create BEFORE dodging from using weaponskills: nothing! wowzi! i want that!

so without de ih will be the one and only dodge trait in the game not working on every dodge without preloaded actions from the player. is that fair? that mesmer either has a big delay on the dodgetrait (cannot just dodge when needed because if you dont have a clone up already ih does nothing) or needs to use another trait to make ih work like every other dodge trait in the game? giving up superior complex or ineptitude just to have a dodge trait equally to other dodge traits in the game? what you call good synergy i call a trade-off. but it is ok since mirage has to have that trade-off because of the other strong mechanics it has. but there lit. is nothing to nerf, it is already a trade-off and not a strong synergy.

a strong synergy between a dodge trait and another trait would be when warrior has a trait in defense line like: everytime you hit a target with unblockable dmg you gain protection for x secs - that i call a good synergy because that means everytime warrior hits a target with his dodge trait dmg he also gets protection in addition. that is a plus, that could be nerfed to not have double reward for one dodge (dmg+protection).

now mirage gets another trade-off because some mirage builds are still too strong. fine, no problem. just that the planned trade-off is completely contradicting the mirage nature by overnerfing the resource it needs to even funtion in a skillful way. cool dat!

some dodge traits trigger at beginning, some at the endit wouldn't be "the one and only dodge" that functions at the end - although clone production at landing position is weird af.

ih + de combo has brought nothing but spammy gameplay - nothing fair about thiscould've trashed ih over core traits in the past for healthier gameplay

no you missunderstood, maybe i explained it bad, lets try again: ih doesnt trigger at all without a clone. mirage either uses de in addition so the dodge trait triggers at all on every dodge or they have dodges where they dont have clones up and where ih does straight nothing. or they have to cast a weapon or utility skill to create a clone before dodging. no other dodge trait requised another weaponskill to use before they dodge to trigger the dodge trait, no other dodge trait in the whole game requires to use a second trait to function like every other dodge trait does with only using one trait for it.

when you think ih (with and without de) is only passive then i rly have no words anymore, you then rly didnt understand mirage mechanics in its fundamentals. but it explains why some ppl in ffa arena give me flame whispers about getting "random interrupted" by a daze clone during i was on purpose actively dodging on sword without being pressured just to make the clone hit them right on time by predicting their heal use. they dont even get that they just got actively and tactical outplayed and they dont know how to counterplay that because they have no idea how mirage works. thx i learnd something (no sarcasm), maybe next time when someone got outplayed by my 2 utility skills, roaming +1 squishy powerbuild in duels i will offer help and practise to understand mirage more instead getting sad myself when i get toxic whispers.but on the other side ppl even cry about core powershatter with no pu, without massive use of stealthskills, pure glass cannon when i even give them the ability to fairly fight me by not attacking them out of stealth, so … dunno what to tell or teach those ppl when they even miss basics they could have easily learned already by watching some guides. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

if the one dodge change goes through mirage will be dead anyway so no need to have a dispute over a dead horse i guess, the first what gets impossible are active outplays by using endurance pure offensive because of that overnerfed resource. that is for suuuure the best way to nerf too high passive condi spam on clones during defensive dodges. way better then just nerfing the dmg on the too strong ambushes from clones on condimes right? better butcher the whole spec and all his skill ceiling for it. \o/

its already like that - if you dont equip de it's not triggering ih like you said (although it does if you have phantasm up, or miniature lol)ih would just not work on the clone generated by de, works for everything else (my suggestion)

im not saying ih is only passive, but it's extremely spammy combined with denothing active about the current meta mirage btw- brought to you by ih+de with heavy nerfs to shatter gameplay

but that is the point when you change ih/de in a way that de clones do not get mirage cloak and ambush right on creation you sugggest that a mirage has to dodge twice to get a reward out of ih. during all other classes can dodge only one time for the reward of their dodge trait and always get it on each dodge. also you cannot expect the mirage to always use a weaponskill before (what no other class needs to do to make their dodge traits work). i mean how you imagine a fight situation like that? am i supposed to kindly ask my enemie to wait with his big attack until i have created a clone by weapon or utilityskill before i finally can dodge? or should i ask my enemie to pls not kill my de clone with one autoattack before i can dodge a second time to finally give him mirage cloak and ambush? it is just not working like that. you would not be able to make any skillful outplay with ih that way. it would just become what you try to avoid: a pure passive dmg side effect no player can tactically work with. and i have no interest in playing such stuff. its the reason i play power and not condi even tho on condi i could have a way easier life.

the reason why condi mes is op is because the ambush skills from clones on condimes are op. not because of de/ih. but if you want to nerf that dmg you need to rework shatters and condishatter traits and weaponskills back to have more dmg to give other ways to apply dmg for condimesmer. and it seems anet is not willing to do this. once again they more nerfing weapon skills and condis from shatters also in next patch but didnt touch ambushes from condiclones. instead they try to kill condi mirage in a way that kills the whole spec and with that also all the skillful builds mirage has.

clone cap to 2 instead 3 is the best way under this restrictions to nerf condimirage on the right place (reducing passive dmg spam from condi clones) without killing all the resources mirage needs on not op builds to make active and tactical outplays with the ih/ambush mechanic.

the best way would be the 2 clone cap as trade-off for mirage and additionally reduce condi clone dmg and buff condishatters, but since anet does the opposite since serveral patches already and in the next one too it will most likely not happen.

@viquing.8254 said:Mean Blinding dissipation and ineptitude were more active, now why will you choose a GM who does 2 confusion during 2 second for 304 damage on skill use on 3 sec CD ???

not that much more tbh, the synergy between blind on all shatters with ineptitude was so broken and spammy that you lit just spammed most of your shatterbuttons on cd and your target was overloaded with condis. there was a reason ineptitude was used over de/ih even tho ambushes had already the same dmg as today. one reason ofc was that em without any penalty was broken but also ppl were most likely just afraid of playing a build more based on mirage mechanic instead shatters what they did know better from hot times and the meta bois also overestimated the projectile hate at pof release time looking at most condi ambushes are projectiles.

whatever enough history ;) fact is, the blinding ineptitude spam was barely more active (i mean when you say active because you have to press a button than condi mirage clone ambush dmg is active too since you have to press a button to make the clone attack) both mechanics are not skillful because they were/are too spammy because too op in their dmg applications (both spammy but for different reasons). but blinding dissipation doesnt exist anymore so we now can give condi dmg to shatters again and nerf ambushes from clones on condimirage for that.

Even by taking MoD and making a rupt gameplay around it it's not worth it....hey dont you dare to say that! my interrupt support burst powermirage build still works very good in conquest for me (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[Koen.1327]

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

"Leonidrex.5649" said:

"Xervite.5493" said:Wait I don't get it, why are you people after IH? How different is the espec mirage from its core spec mesmer without IH? I've hardly used mirage but without IH I see no reason to use the spec.

IH is and was the only overperforming thing cmirage gad.they took away EVERYTHING exept it lol. and its still gonna be there, still overperforming.

you mean the clone ambushes on condi mirage are op right? because ih doesnt have anything to do with how strong ambushes are. what ambushes do and how strong they are is only based in the ambush skill design itself. you can just nerf the too strong ambushes either from the mesmer itself or from clones to solve problems with ambush dmg. that is also the reason a clone cap of 2 as a trade-off makes way more sense, since this change rly is directed to the problem mirage has (on condi at least), it reduces the dmg spam from clone ambushes. and the best thing is: it does it without deleting active combo potential you have on power mirage from ambushes/ ih. it only will nerf a bit of gs dmg what is acceptable. but on gs and sword it wasnt the best play to spam 3 clones for their ambush dmg or ambush effect without shattering anyway because on power mirage shatters are still more rewarding than spamming clone ambush dmg which is not that high. on gs it is more the ambush of the mesmer itself could get a bit of a dmg reduction (what will happen with next patch anyway and even better when they also add a dmg redcution to superior complex trait, since sc is what makes split surge from the mirage itself crit spike up to over 10k on a single target sometimes and also lead to insane high dmg spikes from 7k+mw, too high dmg on phantams and mb and that on all mesmer specs not only mirage).

particularly the synergy of deceptive evasion with IH is extremely strong and couldve been targeted a long time ago instead of other nerfs

ih is a dodge trait (adds a reward to the dodge aside from simple evading an attack), all dodge traits need for several reasons to work on each dodge, at least that is how they work on other classes like warrior or engi for example, right?other dodgetraits also dont have a delay on the effect or the need that the player prepares the dodge in a way to make the dodge trait function, an engi/ warrior dodges and the trait effect activates just by pressing dodge, right? their dodge trait works no matter how many adrenaline a warrior has build up before, they work without the engi needs to use another weaponskill before the dodge, right?

now lets look at what ih does without de and without a clone up you have to create BEFORE dodging from using weaponskills: nothing! wowzi! i want that!

so without de ih will be the one and only dodge trait in the game not working on every dodge without preloaded actions from the player. is that fair? that mesmer either has a big delay on the dodgetrait (cannot just dodge when needed because if you dont have a clone up already ih does nothing) or needs to use another trait to make ih work like every other dodge trait in the game? giving up superior complex or ineptitude just to have a dodge trait equally to other dodge traits in the game? what you call good synergy i call a trade-off. but it is ok since mirage has to have that trade-off because of the other strong mechanics it has. but there lit. is nothing to nerf, it is already a trade-off and not a strong synergy.

a strong synergy between a dodge trait and another trait would be when warrior has a trait in defense line like: everytime you hit a target with unblockable dmg you gain protection for x secs - that i call a good synergy because that means everytime warrior hits a target with his dodge trait dmg he also gets protection in addition. that is a plus, that could be nerfed to not have double reward for one dodge (dmg+protection).

now mirage gets another trade-off because some mirage builds are still too strong. fine, no problem. just that the planned trade-off is completely contradicting the mirage nature by overnerfing the resource it needs to even funtion in a skillful way. cool dat!

some dodge traits trigger at beginning, some at the endit wouldn't be "the one and only dodge" that functions at the end - although clone production at landing position is weird af.

ih + de combo has brought nothing but spammy gameplay - nothing fair about thiscould've trashed ih over core traits in the past for healthier gameplay

no you missunderstood, maybe i explained it bad, lets try again: ih doesnt trigger at all without a clone. mirage either uses de in addition so the dodge trait triggers at all on every dodge or they have dodges where they dont have clones up and where ih does straight nothing. or they have to cast a weapon or utility skill to create a clone before dodging. no other dodge trait requised another weaponskill to use before they dodge to trigger the dodge trait, no other dodge trait in the whole game requires to use a second trait to function like every other dodge trait does with only using one trait for it.

when you think ih (with and without de) is only passive then i rly have no words anymore, you then rly didnt understand mirage mechanics in its fundamentals. but it explains why some ppl in ffa arena give me flame whispers about getting "random interrupted" by a daze clone during i was on purpose actively dodging on sword without being pressured just to make the clone hit them right on time by predicting their heal use. they dont even get that they just got actively and tactical outplayed and they dont know how to counterplay that because they have no idea how mirage works. thx i learnd something (no sarcasm), maybe next time when someone got outplayed by my 2 utility skills, roaming +1 squishy powerbuild in duels i will offer help and practise to understand mirage more instead getting sad myself when i get toxic whispers.but on the other side ppl even cry about core powershatter with no pu, without massive use of stealthskills, pure glass cannon when i even give them the ability to fairly fight me by not attacking them out of stealth, so … dunno what to tell or teach those ppl when they even miss basics they could have easily learned already by watching some guides. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

if the one dodge change goes through mirage will be dead anyway so no need to have a dispute over a dead horse i guess, the first what gets impossible are active outplays by using endurance pure offensive because of that overnerfed resource. that is for suuuure the best way to nerf too high passive condi spam on clones during defensive dodges. way better then just nerfing the dmg on the too strong ambushes from clones on condimes right? better butcher the whole spec and all his skill ceiling for it. \o/

its already like that - if you dont equip de it's not triggering ih like you said (although it does if you have phantasm up, or miniature lol)ih would just not work on the clone generated by de, works for everything else (my suggestion)

im not saying ih is only passive, but it's extremely spammy combined with denothing active about the current meta mirage btw- brought to you by ih+de with heavy nerfs to shatter gameplay

but that is the point when you change ih/de in a way that de clones do not get mirage cloak and ambush right on creation you sugggest that a mirage has to dodge twice to get a reward out of ih. during all other classes can dodge only one time for the reward of their dodge trait and always get it on each dodge. also you cannot expect the mirage to always use a weaponskill before (what no other class needs to do to make their dodge traits work). i mean how you imagine a fight situation like that? am i supposed to kindly ask my enemie to wait with his big attack until i have created a clone by weapon or utilityskill before i finally can dodge? or should i ask my enemie to pls not kill my de clone with one autoattack before i can dodge a second time to finally give him mirage cloak and ambush? it is just not working like that. you would not be able to make any skillful outplay with ih that way. it would just become what you try to avoid: a pure passive dmg side effect no player can tactically work with. and i have no interest in playing such stuff. its the reason i play power and not condi even tho on condi i could have a way easier life.

the reason why condi mes is op is because the ambush skills from clones on condimes are op. not because of de/ih. but if you want to nerf that dmg you need to rework shatters and condishatter traits and weaponskills back to have more dmg to give other ways to apply dmg for condimesmer. and it seems anet is not willing to do this. once again they more nerfing weapon skills and condis from shatters also in next patch but didnt touch ambushes from condiclones. instead they try to kill condi mirage in a way that kills the whole spec and with that also all the skillful builds mirage has.

clone cap to 2 instead 3 is the best way under this restrictions to nerf condimirage on the right place (reducing passive dmg spam from condi clones) without killing all the resources mirage needs on not op builds to make active and tactical outplays with the ih/ambush mechanic.

the best way would be the 2 clone cap as trade-off for mirage and additionally reduce condi clone dmg and buff condishatters, but since anet does the opposite since serveral patches already and in the next one too it will most likely not happen.

ok true, another way was nerfing condi ambushes

as for trade offs, i'd even go 1 clone if it can create any unique style to mirageor desert distortion baseline on f4 (1 sec distortion like chrono)

im not a fan of 1 dodge bar they plan to implement, neither dodge on stun which is still a thing

[viquing.8254]

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@viquing.8254 said:Mean Blinding dissipation and ineptitude were more active, now why will you choose a GM who does 2 confusion during 2 second for 304 damage on skill use on 3 sec CD ???

not that much more tbh, the synergy between blind on all shatters with ineptitude was so broken and spammy that you lit just spammed most of your shatterbuttons on cd and your target was overloaded with condis. there was a reason ineptitude was used over de/ih even tho ambushes had already the same dmg as today. one reason ofc was that em without any penalty wa :3 s broken but also ppl were most likely just afraid of playing a build more based on mirage mechanic instead shatters what they did know better from hot times and the meta bois also overestimated the projectile hate at pof release time locking at most condi ambushes are projectiles.

whatever enough history ;) fact is, the blinding ineptitude spam was barely more active (i mean when you say active because you have to press a button than condi mirage clone ambush dmg is active too since you have to press a button to make the clone attack) both mechanics are not skillful because they were/are too spammy because too op in their dmg applications (both spammy but for different reasons). but blinding dissipation doesnt exist anymore so we now can give condi dmg to shatters again and nerf ambushes from clones on condimirage for that.Be in melee using shatter is more active than pewpewting from range with clone auto imo, even taking into acount the spammable old version, the damage alone from this combo wasn't that high.

Even by taking MoD and making a rupt gameplay around it it's not worth it....hey dont you dare to say that! my interrupt support burst powermirage build still works very good in conquest for me (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻I was talking about MoD + ineptitude combo. <3

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@Koen.1327 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

"Leonidrex.5649" said:

"Xervite.5493" said:Wait I don't get it, why are you people after IH? How different is the espec mirage from its core spec mesmer without IH? I've hardly used mirage but without IH I see no reason to use the spec.

IH is and was the only overperforming thing cmirage gad.they took away EVERYTHING exept it lol. and its still gonna be there, still overperforming.

you mean the clone ambushes on condi mirage are op right? because ih doesnt have anything to do with how strong ambushes are. what ambushes do and how strong they are is only based in the ambush skill design itself. you can just nerf the too strong ambushes either from the mesmer itself or from clones to solve problems with ambush dmg. that is also the reason a clone cap of 2 as a trade-off makes way more sense, since this change rly is directed to the problem mirage has (on condi at least), it reduces the dmg spam from clone ambushes. and the best thing is: it does it without deleting active combo potential you have on power mirage from ambushes/ ih. it only will nerf a bit of gs dmg what is acceptable. but on gs and sword it wasnt the best play to spam 3 clones for their ambush dmg or ambush effect without shattering anyway because on power mirage shatters are still more rewarding than spamming clone ambush dmg which is not that high. on gs it is more the ambush of the mesmer itself could get a bit of a dmg reduction (what will happen with next patch anyway and even better when they also add a dmg redcution to superior complex trait, since sc is what makes split surge from the mirage itself crit spike up to over 10k on a single target sometimes and also lead to insane high dmg spikes from 7k+mw, too high dmg on phantams and mb and that on all mesmer specs not only mirage).

particularly the synergy of deceptive evasion with IH is extremely strong and couldve been targeted a long time ago instead of other nerfs

ih is a dodge trait (adds a reward to the dodge aside from simple evading an attack), all dodge traits need for several reasons to work on each dodge, at least that is how they work on other classes like warrior or engi for example, right?other dodgetraits also dont have a delay on the effect or the need that the player prepares the dodge in a way to make the dodge trait function, an engi/ warrior dodges and the trait effect activates just by pressing dodge, right? their dodge trait works no matter how many adrenaline a warrior has build up before, they work without the engi needs to use another weaponskill before the dodge, right?

now lets look at what ih does without de and without a clone up you have to create BEFORE dodging from using weaponskills: nothing! wowzi! i want that!

so without de ih will be the one and only dodge trait in the game not working on every dodge without preloaded actions from the player. is that fair? that mesmer either has a big delay on the dodgetrait (cannot just dodge when needed because if you dont have a clone up already ih does nothing) or needs to use another trait to make ih work like every other dodge trait in the game? giving up superior complex or ineptitude just to have a dodge trait equally to other dodge traits in the game? what you call good synergy i call a trade-off. but it is ok since mirage has to have that trade-off because of the other strong mechanics it has. but there lit. is nothing to nerf, it is already a trade-off and not a strong synergy.

a strong synergy between a dodge trait and another trait would be when warrior has a trait in defense line like: everytime you hit a target with unblockable dmg you gain protection for x secs - that i call a good synergy because that means everytime warrior hits a target with his dodge trait dmg he also gets protection in addition. that is a plus, that could be nerfed to not have double reward for one dodge (dmg+protection).

now mirage gets another trade-off because some mirage builds are still too strong. fine, no problem. just that the planned trade-off is completely contradicting the mirage nature by overnerfing the resource it needs to even funtion in a skillful way. cool dat!

some dodge traits trigger at beginning, some at the endit wouldn't be "the one and only dodge" that functions at the end - although clone production at landing position is weird af.

ih + de combo has brought nothing but spammy gameplay - nothing fair about thiscould've trashed ih over core traits in the past for healthier gameplay

no you missunderstood, maybe i explained it bad, lets try again: ih doesnt trigger at all without a clone. mirage either uses de in addition so the dodge trait triggers at all on every dodge or they have dodges where they dont have clones up and where ih does straight nothing. or they have to cast a weapon or utility skill to create a clone before dodging. no other dodge trait requised another weaponskill to use before they dodge to trigger the dodge trait, no other dodge trait in the whole game requires to use a second trait to function like every other dodge trait does with only using one trait for it.

when you think ih (with and without de) is only passive then i rly have no words anymore, you then rly didnt understand mirage mechanics in its fundamentals. but it explains why some ppl in ffa arena give me flame whispers about getting "random interrupted" by a daze clone during i was on purpose actively dodging on sword without being pressured just to make the clone hit them right on time by predicting their heal use. they dont even get that they just got actively and tactical outplayed and they dont know how to counterplay that because they have no idea how mirage works. thx i learnd something (no sarcasm), maybe next time when someone got outplayed by my 2 utility skills, roaming +1 squishy powerbuild in duels i will offer help and practise to understand mirage more instead getting sad myself when i get toxic whispers.but on the other side ppl even cry about core powershatter with no pu, without massive use of stealthskills, pure glass cannon when i even give them the ability to fairly fight me by not attacking them out of stealth, so … dunno what to tell or teach those ppl when they even miss basics they could have easily learned already by watching some guides. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

if the one dodge change goes through mirage will be dead anyway so no need to have a dispute over a dead horse i guess, the first what gets impossible are active outplays by using endurance pure offensive because of that overnerfed resource. that is for suuuure the best way to nerf too high passive condi spam on clones during defensive dodges. way better then just nerfing the dmg on the too strong ambushes from clones on condimes right? better butcher the whole spec and all his skill ceiling for it. \o/

its already like that - if you dont equip de it's not triggering ih like you said (although it does if you have phantasm up, or miniature lol)ih would just not work on the clone generated by de, works for everything else (my suggestion)

im not saying ih is only passive, but it's extremely spammy combined with denothing active about the current meta mirage btw- brought to you by ih+de with heavy nerfs to shatter gameplay

but that is the point when you change ih/de in a way that de clones do not get mirage cloak and ambush right on creation you sugggest that a mirage has to dodge twice to get a reward out of ih. during all other classes can dodge only one time for the reward of their dodge trait and always get it on each dodge. also you cannot expect the mirage to always use a weaponskill before (what no other class needs to do to make their dodge traits work). i mean how you imagine a fight situation like that? am i supposed to kindly ask my enemie to wait with his big attack until i have created a clone by weapon or utilityskill before i finally can dodge? or should i ask my enemie to pls not kill my de clone with one autoattack before i can dodge a second time to finally give him mirage cloak and ambush? it is just not working like that. you would not be able to make any skillful outplay with ih that way. it would just become what you try to avoid: a pure passive dmg side effect no player can tactically work with. and i have no interest in playing such stuff. its the reason i play power and not condi even tho on condi i could have a way easier life.

the reason why condi mes is op is because the ambush skills from clones on condimes are op. not because of de/ih. but if you want to nerf that dmg you need to rework shatters and condishatter traits and weaponskills back to have more dmg to give other ways to apply dmg for condimesmer. and it seems anet is not willing to do this. once again they more nerfing weapon skills and condis from shatters also in next patch but didnt touch ambushes from condiclones. instead they try to kill condi mirage in a way that kills the whole spec and with that also all the skillful builds mirage has.

clone cap to 2 instead 3 is the best way under this restrictions to nerf condimirage on the right place (reducing passive dmg spam from condi clones) without killing all the resources mirage needs on not op builds to make active and tactical outplays with the ih/ambush mechanic.

the best way would be the 2 clone cap as trade-off for mirage and additionally reduce condi clone dmg and buff condishatters, but since anet does the opposite since serveral patches already and in the next one too it will most likely not happen.

ok true, another way was nerfing condi ambushes

as for trade offs, i'd even go 1 clone if it can create any unique style to mirageor desert distortion baseline on f4 (1 sec distortion like chrono)

im not a fan of 1 dodge bar they plan to implement, neither dodge on stun which is still a thing

nah one clone would rly be too less. make it cap on 2 and then just wait how balance patch turned out when going life, and when condimirage rly should still have too much dmg we can nerf ambushes from clones on condibuilds. sadly the passive playstyle will still exist even when not op anymore. because for a more active playstyle they would need to buff shatters for condi dmg again and nerf clones even more to change the relation between shatter dmg vs clone dmg. and that just as much as shattering clones is more rewarding over let them live and dodge purely defensive, just like it is on powermirage already.

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Jazz.4639" said:

@viquing.8254 said:Mean Blinding dissipation and ineptitude were more active, now why will you choose a GM who does 2 confusion during 2 second for 304 damage on skill use on 3 sec CD ???

not that much more tbh, the synergy between blind on all shatters with ineptitude was so broken and spammy that you lit just spammed most of your shatterbuttons on cd and your target was overloaded with condis. there was a reason ineptitude was used over de/ih even tho ambushes had already the same dmg as today. one reason ofc was that em without any penalty wa :3 s broken but also ppl were most likely just afraid of playing a build more based on mirage mechanic instead shatters what they did know better from hot times and the meta bois also overestimated the projectile hate at pof release time locking at most condi ambushes are projectiles.

whatever enough history ;) fact is, the blinding ineptitude spam was barely more active (i mean when you say active because you have to press a button than condi mirage clone ambush dmg is active too since you have to press a button to make the clone attack) both mechanics are not skillful because they were/are too spammy because too op in their dmg applications (both spammy but for different reasons). but blinding dissipation doesnt exist anymore so we now can give condi dmg to shatters again and nerf ambushes from clones on condimirage for that.Be in melee using shatter is more active than pewpewting from range with clone auto imo, even taking into acount the spammable old version, the damage alone from this combo wasn't that high.

true thats why i said more active but still not that much more skillful from being too spammy (sure a bit more skillful yes yes grin)

Even by taking MoD and making a rupt gameplay around it it's not worth it....hey dont you dare to say that! my interrupt support burst powermirage build still works very good in conquest for me (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻I was talking about MoD + ineptitude combo. <3

oopsi sry <3 (me starting emotional shut down immediately)

[Simonoly.4352]

The OP suggests a far more sensible choice for a Mirage trade-off than what is planned for the balance patch. Mirage would have less damage than base Mesmer, but has greater personal survivability. It reminds me of how Thief has greater engage range through steal, but Daredevil simply has more dodges.

[Moradorin.6217]

First, I have not seen a single mirage with what I would call oppressive condi pressure from a mirage in many patches. I dont agree that they are "broken" at this point.

I see 1 shot gameplay as the least counter-able cheese play ever. no matter the "skill" required. I dont mind it being around, but seriously 1shot from invis is NOT health for combat if you want play to be counterable, nuff said

What I have seen is power builds of other classes that can basically laugh off any amount of conditions as they do massive crits over and over with little risk. THe only way to get them is to use skilled well timed play and get the right damage in at the right time. Otherwise condi mirage lacks the actual damage and pressure to move people like war, thief, ele off a cap let alone get a kill without wasting half the match.

I have also seen plenty of Fire brands and ele that CAN lay down crazy amounts of condi damage in less than a second that is VERY hard to counter.

I have also been able to throw that fire back onto my active target with Arcane thievery which IS SKILLED play required tracking what opponent is doing and very tightly timed skills. Similarly well timed interupts to stop heals, bursts, etc to get time for condi pressure to build IS SKILLED PLAY.

Using mobility, and clones, interupts, distortion in and keeping them all timed to not get instagibbed by a bursty warrior, thief, etc IS SKILLED PLAY.

Reducing the amount of clones will reduce the playability overall and just dumb down finding the real mesmer for noobs which ISNT PROMOTING SKILLED PLAY. Its NOT hard to learn to pick out the mesmer. People are just lazy and would rather complain.

What I think would be a better solution is to recalculate how damage is applied from ambushes and balance it. I dont see why giving 1 less clone would achieve anything. For instance if the goal was to reduce ambush damage potencial by 1/3 why not just do that so its "balanced" and leave the 3 clones. This idea really seems random to me and doesnt seem necessary for adusting ambush damage. Mirage doesnt do kitten for damage without ambush.

That said, Im enjoying the thread and I feel like people are trying to save mesmer which is my goal too though I suspect its a lost cause because I lack in faith in Anet at this point.

Also I think IH should be made baseline mirage and the 3GMs should be redone/replaced.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@"Moradorin.6217" said:I have also been able to throw that fire back onto my active target with Arcane thievery which IS SKILLED play required tracking what opponent is doing and very tightly timed skills. Similarly well timed interupts to stop heals, bursts, etc to get time for condi pressure to build IS SKILLED PLAY.

Using mobility, and clones, interupts, distortion in and keeping them all timed to not get instagibbed by a bursty warrior, thief, etc IS SKILLED PLAY.

I cant tell if this condi mirage "SKILLED PLAY" is a joke or not.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@"Moradorin.6217" said:I have also been able to throw that fire back onto my active target with Arcane thievery which IS SKILLED play required tracking what opponent is doing and very tightly timed skills. Similarly well timed interupts to stop heals, bursts, etc to get time for condi pressure to build IS SKILLED PLAY.

Using mobility, and clones, interupts, distortion in and keeping them all timed to not get instagibbed by a bursty warrior, thief, etc IS SKILLED PLAY.

I cant tell if this condi mirage "SKILLED PLAY" is a joke or not.

Let me guess you play Firebrand or are one of the people that just want to kill off Mesmer for what ever reason?

In what way can you argue that managing to be in the correct position and direction while moving around to avoid auto spam and other attacks as you are set on fire w 3+ stacks to actually get AT to land at the right moment to remove the fire before your 16k HP are gone and you are downed and stick it to your opponent without getting killed is some how not skilled play. I would love to hear your explanation and also why you think that is somehow OP, oppressive or better than what other similar classes have. Please don't bother responding if all you have is meaningless sarcasm without any actual input.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Moradorin.6217You fight warrior as condi mes, for 30s you dodge every single attack, interrupt his dash away, punish after every hard CC.after doing that for 30s nonstop, you win.war : REEE broken mirage monkeyyou fight warrior, in span of 1,2s he hits you with bulls+ arcing+gs3. you die.war : trash mirage cant even play broken spec 4head lululuu

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:I have also been able to throw that fire back onto my active target with Arcane thievery which IS SKILLED play required tracking what opponent is doing and very tightly timed skills. Similarly well timed interupts to stop heals, bursts, etc to get time for condi pressure to build IS SKILLED PLAY.

Using mobility, and clones, interupts, distortion in and keeping them all timed to not get instagibbed by a bursty warrior, thief, etc IS SKILLED PLAY.

I cant tell if this condi mirage "SKILLED PLAY" is a joke or not.

Let me guess you play Firebrand or are one of the people that just want to kill off Mesmer for what ever reason?

In what way can you argue that managing to be in the correct position and direction while moving around to avoid auto spam and other attacks as you are set on fire w 3+ stacks to actually get AT to land at the right moment to remove the fire before your 16k HP are gone and you are downed and stick it to your opponent without getting killed is some how not skilled play. I would love to hear your explanation and also why you think that is somehow OP, oppressive or better than what other similar classes have. Please don't bother responding if all you have is meaningless sarcasm without any actual input.

I play all classes in pvp/wvw except necro, but ok... It is very easy to use mirage defense and mobility to kite endlessly, and it takes far less skill than other classes to survive. Mirage defense can still be used if you make repeated mistakes and play poorly since you have instant cast mobility/teleports, evades, and invuln that can be used while casting or cced. Arcane thievery does not take skill to use effectively. Its 1200 range, unblockable, and transfers 3 condis/boons so you dont really need to worry about cover condis or cover boons. Timing interrupts on mirage is far easier than most classes. Take MoD and you have an instant cast 1200 range aoe daze, which again, you can use effectively even if you play poorly since it requires no setup aside from charging it ooc. Condi mirage is one of the easiest, lowest effort, most passive and boring classes that holds your hand through every poor decision you make in a fight. I said i didnt know if you were joking because i honestly didnt think there were any people left who think mirage class design is acceptable in what is supposed to be a competitive game.

[Tulkas.2576]

GS and Sword Ambush attacks are some of the most enjoyable abilities in the game for me.I'd be happy with 2 clones. I'd be fine with some sort of IH nerf. I'm down with doing no damage while distorted from shatter. I'm okay with damage and burst nerfs. I have no problems with any of those things, or any of the other current Mirage nerfs.But 1 dodge means I ambush half the time and that really sounds like a nerf to fun for me.It will also make the transition from PVE to PvP much more jarring. Damage modifiers are totally fine to switch between game modes. Cooldowns less so, but still OK, especially if it's only a few seconds each way. Charges are tolerable (looking at you Jaunt). But 1 Dodge, especially when your damage relies on dodging will be really janky.I get that Condi Mirage can be annoying as hell, but I felt that Power Mirage was actually in a decent place currently (and most importantly for me) it was an absolute blast to play.I really feel like 2 clone cap would stop Condi Mirage from being so frustrating for people and I would still enjoy power mirage with 2 clones (not quite as much as currently but that's OK)I'd still like to be able to dodge while stunned (it usually costs you an ambush attack, so it's not 100% free to use) but if you need to take that away in lieu of 1 dodge then go ahead.Also, if you're feeling extra nice, put that 3rd charge back on Jaunt please.

[Felipe.1807]

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:It's seems that their method of balancing mirage is to ignore the busted mechanics and instead just nerf it to the ground until it is unplayable. While that may seem lazy, a lot of PvP focused games like SMITE or dota have done this in the past when a champion has toxic unfun mechanics they just nerf it to oblivion so that it can never be meta.

I'd rather they just rework it to something akin to GW1 mesmer.

LoL too, Akali, Irelia, Kalista, Azir...the list goes on of unhealthy high skill floor/High skill ceilign champs that just get unstoupable when people learn how to play them, so Riot is forced too nerf them to the ground, but thanks to their broken kits, number nerfs actually dosent affect them to much at the highest skill level...and this is LoL, a game that is pure PvP, I really dont expect that a MMO to have any kind of balance when even games like that struggle...they rather keep the unhealthy mechanic cause is the champion/class "identity" then to remove it/rework it

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Felipe.1807 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:It's seems that their method of balancing mirage is to ignore the busted mechanics and instead just nerf it to the ground until it is unplayable. While that may seem lazy, a lot of PvP focused games like SMITE or dota have done this in the past when a champion has toxic unfun mechanics they just nerf it

to oblivion

so that it can never be meta.

I'd rather they just rework it to something akin to GW1 mesmer.

LoL too, Akali, Irelia, Kalista, Azir...the list goes on of unhealthy high skill floor/High skill ceilign champs that just get unstoupable when people learn how to play them, so Riot is forced too nerf them to the ground, but thanks to their broken kits, number nerfs actually dosent affect them to much at the highest skill level...and this is LoL, a game that is pure PvP, I really dont expect that a MMO to have any kind of balance when even games like that struggle...they rather keep the unhealthy mechanic cause is the champion/class "identity" then to remove it/rework it

100% no.unlike this shit ass game riot does semicompetent at balancing.at its worst stats the hardest champions in lol can still be played to their full potential.I hate cT with my whole heart, lol would be so much better if he never graced us with bullshit design champions that he released.they dont fit the game

the biggest difference is that.1 the game ( lol has actually good players in it ) and I dont say "good" I mean REALLY good, not the clowns we have here. No real competition means people cant learn.2 the game has balance team -> shit gets balanced, they are bad at their job but someone does it, its better then nothing3 they have statistics -> winrates, playrates. graphs. when chapion wins, is it good against hight elo or low elo. how many people play it. what kind of people play it, are those 1tricks that only play that 1 hero? or are those people that just metaslave.

to put lol into gw2 perspective.if I never played lol or gw2. and just started them both.I would reach top 250 in GW2 ( propably top 1% ) before I would reach silver ( top 80% )pvp here is a farce

[Felipe.1807]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:It's seems that their method of balancing mirage is to ignore the busted mechanics and instead just nerf it to the ground until it is unplayable. While that may seem lazy, a lot of PvP focused games like SMITE or dota have done this in the past when a champion has toxic unfun mechanics they just nerf it

to oblivion

so that it can never be meta.

I'd rather they just rework it to something akin to GW1 mesmer.

LoL too, Akali, Irelia, Kalista, Azir...the list goes on of unhealthy high skill floor/High skill ceilign champs that just get unstoupable when people learn how to play them, so Riot is forced too nerf them to the ground, but thanks to their broken kits, number nerfs actually dosent affect them to much at the highest skill level...and this is LoL, a game that is pure PvP, I really dont expect that a MMO to have any kind of balance when even games like that struggle...they rather keep the unhealthy mechanic cause is the champion/class "identity" then to remove it/rework it

100% no.unlike this kitten kitten game riot does semicompetent at balancing.at its worst stats the hardest champions in lol can still be played to their full potential.I hate cT with my whole heart, lol would be so much better if he never graced us with kitten design champions that he released.they dont fit the game

I know, this was literally what I said "so Riot is forced too nerf them to the ground, but thanks to their broken kits, number nerfs actually dosent affect them to much at the highest skill level" stuff like extremlly low winrate Ryze still being picked in worlds, Akali, Irelia, Aatrox being close to permaban/pick in competitive games a few patches ago, in fact I guess Akali still have that status, even if she got like what, 50% of her kit change or reworked and nerfed allready...Pantheon actually being 100% pick/ban at last worlds...Aphelios/Senna/Sett/Qiyana being either completelly broken or overstated, Akali after so many nerfs still being one of the highest ban rate champs, that never gonna get the nerf that it deserves cause sell more skins then 20 champs together, Sona/Soraka top...Riot really fails to try to balance the game, I dont think that theres single LoL player from Iron to Challenger that will say that the game is any close of being balanced...GW2 is a MMO, PvP is not their focus...LoL is 100% a PvP game, and even they cant balance for shit, every new/reworked champion get powercreeped, mobility, damage, CC...its actually worse then GW2 with HoT and PoF. Comparing Qiyana with Zed or Talon(all assassin type champions) is really disgusting the level of powercreep.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Felipe.1807 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:It's seems that their method of balancing mirage is to ignore the busted mechanics and instead just nerf it to the ground until it is unplayable. While that may seem lazy, a lot of PvP focused games like SMITE or dota have done this in the past when a champion has toxic unfun mechanics they just nerf it

to oblivion

so that it can never be meta.

I'd rather they just rework it to something akin to GW1 mesmer.

LoL too, Akali, Irelia, Kalista, Azir...the list goes on of unhealthy high skill floor/High skill ceilign champs that just get unstoupable when people learn how to play them, so Riot is forced too nerf them to the ground, but thanks to their broken kits, number nerfs actually dosent affect them to much at the highest skill level...and this is LoL, a game that is pure PvP, I really dont expect that a MMO to have any kind of balance when even games like that struggle...they rather keep the unhealthy mechanic cause is the champion/class "identity" then to remove it/rework it

100% no.unlike this kitten kitten game riot does semicompetent at balancing.at its worst stats the hardest champions in lol can still be played to their full potential.I hate cT with my whole heart, lol would be so much better if he never graced us with kitten design champions that he released.they dont fit the game

I know, this was literally what I said "so Riot is forced too nerf them to the ground, but thanks to their broken kits, number nerfs actually dosent affect them to much at the highest skill level" stuff like extremlly low winrate Ryze still being picked in worlds, Akali, Irelia, Aatrox being close to permaban/pick in competitive games a few patches ago, in fact I guess Akali still have that status, even if she got like what, 50% of her kit change or reworked and nerfed allready...Pantheon actually being 100% pick/ban at last worlds...Aphelios/Senna/Sett/Qiyana being either completelly broken or overstated, Akali after so many nerfs still being one of the highest ban rate champs, that never gonna get the nerf that it deserves cause sell more skins then 20 champs together, Sona/Soraka top...Riot really fails to try to balance the game, I dont think that theres single LoL player from Iron to Challenger that will say that the game is any close of being balanced...GW2 is a MMO, PvP is not their focus...LoL is 100% a PvP game, and even they cant balance for kitten, every new/reworked champion get powercreeped, mobility, damage, CC...its actually worse then GW2 with HoT and PoF. Comparing Qiyana with Zed or Talon(all assassin type champions) is really disgusting the level of powercreep.

those champions are not nerfed to the ground. they are fine, players just need to be semi-good at them.lowest of the low rank takes more effort then it takes to play in plat in GW2.akali and aphelios have broken kits, those are the only 2, others are fine with number changes.and I 100% disagree, LoL is VERY well balanced game in comparison to most games.Ill give you example, Mirage lost 50% of its damage on staff -> community still whines.Kassadin lost 5 move speed ( this is less then 2% movespeed ) -> and his winrate went down by 1,5%All developers have to do in gw2 is remove safety nets, and give reward for proper and skillfull use of skills, and PUNISH for doing it improperly.This is not the case, I can look at thief as he wasted 5 dodges into nothing, and I cant catch him anyways becouse he still has 3 more.All classes have this issue, you could compleatly remove heroic ability from thief, grey it out and made it unusable, and it would not make much of a difference.meanwhile increasing damage by 5% from 1 skill of 4, pushes champions winrate from 49% to 51,5% in leage.

[Tulkas.2576]

I just wanted to comment on my previous comment.I misunderstood the change to endurance. I was imagining it more as a 100% increase to the cost of dodging rather than just reducing the amount of endurance we can store. Now that I am rethinking it, dodging will still cost 50 endurance and we will still have the same amount of vigor/endurance recovery, so we will technically be able to ambush almost as often.This seems less evil to me than what I was first imagining. Still don't like it, but not as bad as I thought.

How about we get endurance reduced by 25 to start with an see how that goes? We can still bank a bit of endurance, but we can't dodge twice in a row.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Tulkas.2576" said:I just wanted to comment on my previous comment.I misunderstood the change to endurance. I was imagining it more as a 100% increase to the cost of dodging rather than just reducing the amount of endurance we can store. Now that I am rethinking it, dodging will still cost 50 endurance and we will still have the same amount of vigor/endurance recovery, so we will technically be able to ambush almost as often.This seems less evil to me than what I was first imagining. Still don't like it, but not as bad as I thought.

How about we get endurance reduced by 25 to start with an see how that goes? We can still bank a bit of endurance, but we can't dodge twice in a row.

right now you are negotiating with terrorists.let them have the one dodge and let them play their "OP" mirageand we would remove the -50% nerf streak, meme value is too highhttps://imgur.com/q80HKRu