Trickster

Antipode.7830 · February 7, 2020

Does anyone see this trait gaining more value in WvW?

Bountiful Theft is going to remove 2 boons instead of 3, and it looks like the CD reduction of Trickster should bring the increases on skills like Roll for Initiative and Withdraw back down to more or less what they are now. I could see playing S/P in the future using a Sigil of Absorption on pistol and taking Trickster to keep CDs low.

I know a lot is changing, and it's going to be difficult o sort out what is/isn't good at this point, but the tradeoff seems a lot more attractive than it used to. Or is that just me?

Sir Vincent III.1286 · February 7, 2020

This is nothing new. Typically, the CDR is just the bonus. Trickster is taken to have a reliable access against conditions.

Jugglemonkey.8741 · February 7, 2020

Yeah, I was thinking of doing something similar OP.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:This is nothing new. Typically, the CDR is just the bonus. Trickster is taken to have a reliable access against conditions.

Yeah, it's not new, but in the past bountiful theft has had greater value. Depending on how boons are nerfed on other classes, I can see the two traits being equally valuable after the patch if you're using any combination of rending shade, absorption sigil or larcenous strike.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · February 8, 2020

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:Yeah, I was thinking of doing something similar OP.
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:This is nothing new. Typically, the CDR is just the bonus. Trickster is taken to have a reliable access against conditions.

Yeah, it's not new, but in the past bountiful theft has had greater value. Depending on how boons are nerfed on other classes, I can see the two traits being equally valuable after the patch if you're using any combination of rending shade, absorption sigil or larcenous strike.

I agree. In the past, bountiful has greater value. However, ever since ArenaNet made a power creep of condition damage, I started taking Trickster over bountiful. But the change to Shadow Arts made me abandon both. With S/D, I don't need bountiful and with Concealing restoration+Shadow Embrace, I don't need Trickster.

kash.9213 · February 8, 2020

All of Bountiful Theft is nice though even down to two boons. I like Pressure Striking also though especially combined with some stuff and I definitely would feel more free to use it more often if I know I can squeeze the interrupts out of people but if I can't I'd just stick with BT for the same reason I go with Havoc over Impacting more often.

Yasai.3549 · February 8, 2020

Bountiful Theft can rip only 1 Boon and still be a better pick in most cases, if only to steal Stability.

Infact, it may even be stronger now that Stability generation is being nerfed across the board.

Jugglemonkey.8741 · February 8, 2020

@Yasai.3549 said:Bountiful Theft can rip only 1 Boon and still be a better pick in most cases, if only to steal Stability.
Infact, it may even be stronger now that Stability generation is being nerfed across the board.

That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.

Antipode.7830 · February 8, 2020

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere?

And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though.

Sindrener.1592 · February 8, 2020

@Antipode.7830 said:
@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere?

And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft

without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyi

babazhook.6805 · February 8, 2020

@Yasai.3549 said:Bountiful Theft can rip only 1 Boon and still be a better pick in most cases, if only to steal Stability.
Infact, it may even be stronger now that Stability generation is being nerfed across the board.

I think we have to see this play out for a while first. . A number of sources of interrupts on thief have been hit such as PI ,Impact strike and Bandits defense. If those less used application of interrupts/stuns drop and having a stability rip not as important. Obviously SOH remains and you would want that stability rip there but will that be enough on its own if other sources less used?

Jugglemonkey.8741 · February 8, 2020

@bluri.2653 said:
@Antipode.7830 said:
@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere?

And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft

without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyi

That's a good point as well. Honestly I've run bountiful theft for that long I forget what it's like not having it sometimes, so while I plan to try trickster for the CD reduction post patch I may not stick with it either.

Jugglemonkey.8741 · February 8, 2020

@babazhook.6805 said:
@Yasai.3549 said:Bountiful Theft can rip only 1 Boon and still be a better pick in most cases, if only to steal Stability.
Infact, it may even be stronger now that Stability generation is being nerfed across the board.

I think we have to see this play out for a while first. . A number of sources of interrupts on thief have been hit such as PI ,Impact strike and Bandits defense. If those less used application of interrupts/stuns drop and having a stability rip not as important. Obviously SOH remains and you would want that stability rip there but will that be enough on its own if other sources less used?

It depends really. If you're going with S/D and rending shade, you probably don't need bountiful theft as larcenous strike is unblockable (aegis) and neither skill is dependent on interrupts, so stability on the opponent doesn't really matter so much. If you're going S/P with absorption sigil, you might need bountiful theft much more just to create an opening on stab heavy opponents. If access to stab is lower across the board, you might be better off simply waiting out the stability and spiking after, that's what you have to do already with pulsing stab like balanced stance on warrior for instance. A lot is going to depend on how the other classes react to the nerfs, and how the meta shakes out. Thinking primarily from a WvW roaming perspective here.

Antipode.7830 · February 10, 2020

I played around with an interrupt-heavy build this weekend. BT was absolutely necessary with how much stability exists at the moment. It's the only reason I could make it work, honestly. In smaller engagements, focusing on locking an enemy down hard worked out really well, particularly against characters with heavy sustain that can usually kite several people for a long time. Getting an interrupt felt finicky, but I used Distracting Daggers to double down on the idea, and it was fun.

I'm going to give S/D SA a go this week. Any recommendation on utilities and generally how to play stealth S/D?

kash.9213 · February 10, 2020

@Antipode.7830 said:I played around with an interrupt-heavy build this weekend. BT was absolutely necessary with how much stability exists at the moment. It's the only reason I could make it work, honestly. In smaller engagements, focusing on locking an enemy down hard worked out really well, particularly against characters with heavy sustain that can usually kite several people for a long time. Getting an interrupt felt finicky, but I used Distracting Daggers to double down on the idea, and it was fun.
I'm going to give S/D SA a go this week. Any recommendation on utilities and generally how to play stealth S/D?

In WvW I use SA with DE and Drd mirror builds, the Drd build has s/d for now.-S/D still feels like natural movement for me but I learned to Left Mouse change target or to de-target in dead space so that Flanking Strike stays as tight as I want and in the direction I need. I also combine jump dodge with it in places with bad pathing like SMC but don't do that unless you get what I'm saying. Care with Shadowstep and Infiltrator's Strike in places like that also, they can get you killed.-I like connecting CnD to Steal, especially with SA/Rending Shade.-Good you don't sleep on Dancing Dagger.Not sure your game mode but Utility really is just taking what you need for that day and that match/matchup. In WvW, Scorpion Wire can get people with range of, or pulled down, to where you can close distance and lock them up or kill and s/d has a good blink in/out range to match. You might want to take Assassins Signet or something solid like that though, especially in spvp but then you're probably on a different build there.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · February 11, 2020

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@bluri.2653 said:
@Antipode.7830 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere?

And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft

without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyi

That's a good point as well. Honestly I've run bountiful theft for that long I forget what it's like not having it sometimes, so while I plan to try trickster for the CD reduction post patch I may not stick with it either.

The CDR won't be worth it. I doubt you'd be healing often after the patch.

Jugglemonkey.8741 · February 12, 2020

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@bluri.2653 said:
@Antipode.7830 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere?

And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft

without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyi

That's a good point as well. Honestly I've run bountiful theft for that long I forget what it's like not having it sometimes, so while I plan to try trickster for the CD reduction post patch I may not stick with it either.

The CDR won't be worth it. I doubt you'd be healing often after the patch.

Yeah. Tbh I'll probably end up keeping bountiful theft and swap to hide in shadows for the heal, since I'm already using that on a few builds for the cleanse and I'm usually running the cdr trait for that too.

babazhook.6805 · February 12, 2020

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@bluri.2653 said:
@Antipode.7830 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere?

And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft

without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyi

That's a good point as well. Honestly I've run bountiful theft for that long I forget what it's like not having it sometimes, so while I plan to try trickster for the CD reduction post patch I may not stick with it either.

The CDR won't be worth it. I doubt you'd be healing often after the patch.

Trickster will still be worth it if one using 3 tricks. 2 is probably not enough to make it worthwhile.

This suggests a core build for the most part as you are not taking the DRD and DE utilities if you want three tricks. If I have Daggerstrom, withdraw and RFI in use I will stick with Trickster. Indeed of all the classes of utilities , Tricks are the only one I can see using in every slot.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · February 12, 2020

@babazhook.6805 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@bluri.2653 said:
@Antipode.7830 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere?

And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft

without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyi

That's a good point as well. Honestly I've run bountiful theft for that long I forget what it's like not having it sometimes, so while I plan to try trickster for the CD reduction post patch I may not stick with it either.

The CDR won't be worth it. I doubt you'd be healing often after the patch.

Trickster will still be worth it if one using 3 tricks. 2 is probably not enough to make it worthwhile.

This suggests a core build for the most part as you are not taking the DRD and DE utilities if you want three tricks. If I have Daggerstrom, withdraw and RFI in use I will stick with Trickster. Indeed of all the classes of utilities , Tricks are the only one I can see using in every slot.

Daggerstorm is getting nerfed so you are practically taking Trickster for one utility skill, RFI.

If you want to reduce recharge of your utilities and not be limited to Trickery based skills, you're better off investing in Improvisation and effectively make all your utility skills have 20s CD.

The CDR from Trickster has always been just a bonus, not the main reason to take it, at least for me. I take it for cleanse, but with the new SA, it's no longer necessary.

felix.2386 · February 12, 2020

boutiful is for burst and ganks to take objectives, ofc trickster is more suited for prolonged fight where theres no objective, so u can cheese to victory specially combining withdraw with shadow art, that's WvW ofc

babazhook.6805 · February 13, 2020

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@bluri.2653 said:
@Antipode.7830 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere?

And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft

without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyi

That's a good point as well. Honestly I've run bountiful theft for that long I forget what it's like not having it sometimes, so while I plan to try trickster for the CD reduction post patch I may not stick with it either.

The CDR won't be worth it. I doubt you'd be healing often after the patch.

Trickster will still be worth it if one using 3 tricks. 2 is probably not enough to make it worthwhile.

This suggests a core build for the most part as you are not taking the DRD and DE utilities if you want three tricks. If I have Daggerstrom, withdraw and RFI in use I will stick with Trickster. Indeed of all the classes of utilities , Tricks are the only one I can see using in every slot.

Daggerstorm is getting nerfed so you are practically taking Trickster for one utility skill, RFI.

If you want to reduce recharge of your utilities and not be limited to Trickery based skills, you're better off investing in Improvisation and effectively make all your utility skills have 20s CD.

The CDR from Trickster has always been just a bonus, not the main reason to take it, at least for me. I take it for cleanse, but with the new SA, it's no longer necessary.

I would disagree. If in an s/d build I would still want trickster. I am not stealthing a lot in that build. I am not too worried about stability as I am not built to interrupt. Trait withdraw/RFI/Sw and you have all the cleanses you need.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · February 13, 2020

@babazhook.6805 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:
@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
@bluri.2653 said:
@Antipode.7830 said:
@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:That's a good point as well. It depends on the boon priority lists for all the skills you plan on using, last I looked at it it wasn't really consistent which boons got stolen first when comparing sources of boonrip sadly.