List of unresolved plot threads

[castlemanic.3198]

Thanks for those clarifications, really helps solidify the aspects of lore i'm confused with.

[Crystal Black.8190]

What happened to Subject Alpha after it escaped? Is it out there hunting dragon minions and consuming energy like a kind of mini elder dragon?

[JayMack.8295]

Have they confirmed or denied either way for Subject Alpha? I was always under the impression we killed it.

Suppose since they've left it vague enough, they could bring it back whenever they wanted.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

When you "kill" Subject Alpha, it splits into many Alpha's Essence. One of them remains green, buffed with Determined, and flees while the rest literally wander about doing nothing waiting for players to kill them. Regardless of which path it is.

Subject Alpha escaped, albeit severely wounded. I've always wanted them to follow up with that. It would be an awesome plot if Subject Alpha recovered, became more intelligent and adopted its own name to become a threat once more. It was the first potential "future threat of a foe with five/all six draconic energies in it", but then with Season 3 and now Kralkatorrik that theme has kind of been done a bit too heavily to make Alpha's return awesome in that regard.

[Zaklex.6308]

At one point in time the Wizards Tower was slated to become another dungeon, but of course that was before it was decided there would me no more dungeons and the dungeon team was split up amongst other teams within Anet...and no, it was only at the concept point I believe, though the portal was briefly there at the gate, which is how you would have reached the entrance(through the large wooden gate at the end of the road).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Never heard of such a thing, besides that portal was actually to lead to a scrapped zone where D'Alessio Seaboard was in GW1 (and this zone included the Dominion of Winds' eastern wall, as well as Claw Island). Said zone was still found in the gw.dat at release, like Lake Doric's original scrapped zone.

Side note: the portals found in Sparkfly Fen and Mount Maelstrom (Judgement Rock) were also leading to scrapped zones, which were to be mostly underwater content.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Side note: the portals found in Sparkfly Fen and Mount Maelstrom (Judgement Rock) were also leading to scrapped zones, which were to be mostly underwater content.They really hate underwater content don't they?

But really, the guy from the floating castle they can't talk about.

[TeeracK.3601]

I want to know why the Order of Whispers and the Order of Shadows broke up. It would also be nice if the Master of Whispers could try doing literally anything in the lore considering they are master of whispers...

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@TeeracK.3601 said:I want to know why the Order of Whispers and the Order of Shadows broke up. It would also be nice if the Master of Whispers could try doing literally anything in the lore considering they are master of whispers...As I recall, its mentioned they split because the OoW was focused mainly on the Elder Dragons, while the OoS was focused mainly on fighting Joko and trying to Free Elona from his rule.

[Yitsul.8342]

If I may add one....

PoF Spoilers!

! What will Divinity's Reach do with the Balthazar Road, plaza, and waypoint now that he's dead?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Yitsul.8342 said:If I may add one....

PoF Spoilers!

! What will Divinity's Reach do with the Balthazar Road, plaza, and waypoint now that he's dead?Nothing, since him being alive or not has nothing to do with why they named it such.

[castlemanic.3198]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Yitsul.8342 said:If I may add one....

PoF Spoilers!

! What will Divinity's Reach do with the Balthazar Road, plaza, and waypoint now that he's dead?Nothing, since him being alive or not has nothing to do with why they named it such.

There's more than simply that going into the question

! For example, the very idea that Balthazar is no longer one of the six. How does humanity as a whole react to that fact, while also having the question of "If balthazar has been replaced, who replaced him and how do we worship that person?" However, the human gods have abandoned Tyria and their domains as well, seemingly having moved on to another world where they hope to transplant humans onto eventually. While there would normally be huge lore implications for everything that happened, up to and including his death, Divinity's Reach and the human's hounds of Balthazar elite won't change, DR because it's stuck in time and hounds of Balthazar because it's a skill that players have gotten accustomed to.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

Balthazar seemingly getting replaced really wouldn't change anything because said being who replaced them never showed themselves, or made their presence known, so while he/she may have Balthazar's power, he/she was never one of the human gods, because humans never worshiped them. Likewise, people already knew that the human gods left Tyria, and The Mists, some time ago, so that isn't exactly a big revelation.

All that would realistically happen is that the temple would try to push the notion that we should remember Balthazar for who he was before, not how he died, and would still continue to worship him as one of the Six, because he was one of the six gods who actually was involved in human affairs, while this new "sixth" hasn't.

[castlemanic.3198]

The humans on Tyria only had guesswork to go on, with prayers not being responded to and the like. That instance with Kormir is the first lore explanation that we've had of the gods moving entirely away from Tyria and abandoning their domains, on top of the fact that the priestess of Kormir in the epilogue (if you chose the sunspears) mentions even her faith being shaken by the idea that Kormir and the other gods have abandoned them to their fate. So clearly, this is news, so much so that even the priestess herself says she'd rather talk about something else and about not telling others about the fact that the gods abandoned them.

We also have precedence of a previously beloved god who people had stopped worshipping because of his actions that threatened tyria as a whole, Abaddon, so clearly humans wouldn't just go on with just praying to Balthazar and worshipping him 'as he was'. All knowledge of Abaddon was hidden away, statues torn down, books burned etc. so much so that nobody would even remember that there were, once upon a time, six gods instead of five. This is even happening now, as there's a basket over the head of Balthazar in Amnoon at the temple of the six, showing that even while Balthazar was alive, humans were actively harboring ill will against him and were trying to hide his visage so as not to acknowledge him. After his death, there's literally no reason to keep worshipping Balthazar.

We also don't know if someone replaced Balthazar, we can only assume so. Like we've both mentioned, there's no knowledge of who replaced Balthazar or even if that was the case, only that his divinity was stripped from him. So humans, who know the story of Abaddon, how he was worshipped, fell from grace and then replaced, will wonder if there was someone else to replace Balthazar, naturally so because the knowledge of Abaddon is no longer a secret.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@castlemanic.3198 said:The humans on Tyria only had guesswork to go on, with prayers not being responded to and the like.Untrue, the gods told humanity they were leaving as far back as Nightfall.

@castlemanic.3198 said:We also have precedence of a previously beloved god who people had stopped worshipping because of his actions that threatened tyria as a whole, AbaddonAlso untrue. As stated back in Nightfall, the reason why people stopped worshiping Abbadon is because the gods went on a systematic campaign to remove every bit of knowledge about Abbadon's existence from written and known record. The Gods actively purged Abbadon from history, which is why he was forgotten. No such godly campaign took place in Balthazar's case.

@castlemanic.3198 said:We also don't know if someone replaced Balthazar, we can only assume so.Again untrue. Kormir explicitly states Balthazar is no longer one of the Six after Rytlok tries to correct Kas by saying they are "The Five" now that Balthazar is gone. We know, for a fact, there are still 6, and Balthazar isn't one of them.

[castlemanic.3198]

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Untrue, the gods told humanity they were leaving as far back as Nightfall.

So why is it news to the priestess of Kormir that the gods have abandoned Tyria and their domains entirely?

EDIT: Correction:

It was Second Spear Nayrim:

Commander:Speaking of Kormir...

Second Spear Nayrim: Shh—quiet. Kasmeer told me, but we don't want everyone to know...yet. I'm still wresting with the fact that she's gone. That they're all gone. That the gods would leave us...

But Priestess Karima also has some words for us:

I'm only doing what is right and necessary. It's what Kormir would have wanted. Yes, Kasmeer told me that our goddess has left. Please, don't ask me how I feel about it.

Also untrue. As stated back in Nightfall, the reason why people stopped worshiping Abbadon is because the gods went on a systematic campaign to remove every bit of knowledge about Abbadon's existence from written and known record. The Gods actively purged Abbadon from history, which is why he was forgotten. No such godly campaign took place in Balthazar's case.

While fair, it doesn't prevent the fact that people are already doing stuff like putting the basket over Balthazar's head in the temple of the six in Amnoon. So again, there's no reason to continue worshipping Balthazar after his death if he's inspired this much animosity and has threatened the world with destruction (by proxy of Elder Dragon death). He'll continue to have his worshippers, even after his death (we have lore precedence for this, the priest of Abaddon in Siren's Landing), but that doesn't mean he'll continuously be worshipped lore wise by the entirety of humanity.

Again untrue. Kormir explicitly states Balthazar is no longer one of the Six after Rytlok tries to correct Kas by saying they are "The Five" now that Balthazar is gone. We know, for a fact, there are still 6, and Balthazar isn't one of them.

Actually:

Lady Kasmeer Meade: I-please excuse me, Goddess. Perhaps I wasn't clear-we can't hope to defeat Balthazar without the aid of the Six.Rytlock Brimstone: Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six.Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.

Kormir was directly correcting what Rytlock was saying, that Balthazar was one of the Six. There's enough ambiguity to wonder if he's been replaced at all. I'm with you that the likeliest case is that Balthazar was replaced, but we don't have 100% confirmation of such just yet.

[RyuDragnier.9476]

If Balthazar has been replaced by another, I would guess the one character the gods would be willing to take from GW1 to fit that role (if they replaced them before said character actually died) would be the player character. They fought in numerous wars and battles, destroyed the Titans, and helped stop Nightfall by killing Abaddon. I can think of no other worthy of being ascended to the God of War.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@TeeracK.3601 said:I want to know why the Order of Whispers and the Order of Shadows broke up. It would also be nice if the Master of Whispers could try doing literally anything in the lore considering they are master of whispers...As I recall, its mentioned they split because the OoW was focused mainly on the Elder Dragons, while the OoS was focused mainly on fighting Joko and trying to Free Elona from his rule.

Not just their focus (Elder Dragons and Central Tyria politics versus Joko, Mouth of Torment, and Elonian politics), but also methodology. The odd thing though, to me, is that the group who didn't follow the original Orders' purpose took the name Whispers. Well, hindsight thoughts and all I bet. I do find it odd they split the two for lore, when there was no real reason to.

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Yitsul.8342 said:If I may add one....

PoF Spoilers!

! What will Divinity's Reach do with the Balthazar Road, plaza, and waypoint now that he's dead?Nothing, since him being alive or not has nothing to do with why they named it such.

There's more than simply that going into the question

! For example, the very idea that Balthazar is no longer one of the six. How does humanity as a whole react to that fact, while also having the question of "If balthazar has been replaced, who replaced him and how do we worship that person?" However, the human gods have abandoned Tyria and their domains as well, seemingly having moved on to another world where they hope to transplant humans onto eventually. While there would normally be huge lore implications for everything that happened, up to and including his death, Divinity's Reach and the human's hounds of Balthazar elite won't change, DR because it's stuck in time and hounds of Balthazar because it's a skill that players have gotten accustomed to.

Nothing, not for lore reasons but design reasons. Divinity's Reach is simply "stuck in time" in 1325 AE, when Balthazar was - to all human knowledge, not actuality - one of the Six.

We might get a reference from future interactions with Anise or some other NPC going "we're renaming that area" but it won't be visible to players no doubt.

@castlemanic.3198 said:We also have precedence of a previously beloved god who people had stopped worshipping because of his actions that threatened tyria as a whole, Abaddon, so clearly humans wouldn't just go on with just praying to Balthazar and worshipping him 'as he was'. All knowledge of Abaddon was hidden away, statues torn down, books burned etc. so much so that nobody would even remember that there were, once upon a time, six gods instead of five. This is even happening now, as there's a basket over the head of Balthazar in Amnoon at the temple of the six, showing that even while Balthazar was alive, humans were actively harboring ill will against him and were trying to hide his visage so as not to acknowledge him. After his death, there's literally no reason to keep worshipping Balthazar.

You're conflating the actions of the Six (removing knowledge of Abaddon) with the actions of humans. Humans would have stilled worshiped Abaddon (as evident by the fact humans did in cults, and even now we're getting renewed churches of Abaddon to "worship him as he was, not as he became"). Abaddon worship died out due to the gods' actions, which are not occurring this time around.

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Untrue, the gods told humanity they were leaving as far back as Nightfall.

So why is it news to the priestess of Kormir that the gods have abandoned Tyria and their domains entirely?

You're once more conflating two different things. Humanity knew why the gods went silent - they left Tyria in mortal hands. But what they didn't know is what the gods were doing. They had thought (and for a while, rightly so) that the gods were still watching over them, and believed (wrongfully so) that the gods would step in should things become too dire. Now they know that the gods are neither watching over them nor will they ever step in.

That's the difference.

Also, the gods hadn't abandoned their own domains until recently as well.

@castlemanic.3198 said:Kormir was directly correcting what Rytlock was saying, that Balthazar was one of the Six. There's enough ambiguity to wonder if he's been replaced at all. I'm with you that the likeliest case is that Balthazar was replaced, but we don't have 100% confirmation of such just yet.

I would disagree, personally. But then we're nitpicking over the meaning of a metaphorical speaker.

But there's more than that one line. There's also the nature of the gods' power, and the fact that they didn't simply strip Abaddon of power. Their actions with Abaddon shows that they need a living vessel for the magic, otherwise they could have just done the same as with Balthazar if Balthazar's divinity didn't get put into a successor.

@RyuDragnier.9476 said:If Balthazar has been replaced by another, I would guess the one character the gods would be willing to take from GW1 to fit that role (if they replaced them before said character actually died) would be the player character. They fought in numerous wars and battles, destroyed the Titans, and helped stop Nightfall by killing Abaddon. I can think of no other worthy of being ascended to the God of War.

Koss.

:smile:

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Not just their focus (Elder Dragons and Central Tyria politics versus Joko, Mouth of Torment, and Elonian politics), but also methodology. The odd thing though, to me, is that the group who didn't follow the original Orders' purpose took the name Whispers. Well, hindsight thoughts and all I bet. I do find it odd they split the two for lore, when there was no real reason to.I would assume it was because the OoW had the larger portion of resources and manpower, and thus, could claim the right of being the "true" natural evolution of the group, which meant they had the right to keep the original name.

As for the split, i think it will come up later in Living World Season 4. With the Pact still recovering from the ass kicking Mordremoth gave them, having this "separate" but still kinda the same, faction in Elona, helping us deal with Joko and Kralkatorik, makes sense as a narrative device to explain why we are getting the level of help we are getting. The OoW is likely still too depleted to help, so we get the OoS helping us instead!

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

whoops double post

[castlemanic.3198]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Yitsul.8342 said:If I may add one....

PoF Spoilers!

! What will Divinity's Reach do with the Balthazar Road, plaza, and waypoint now that he's dead?Nothing, since him being alive or not has nothing to do with why they named it such.

There's more than simply that going into the question

! For example, the very idea that Balthazar is no longer one of the six. How does humanity as a whole react to that fact, while also having the question of "If balthazar has been replaced, who replaced him and how do we worship that person?" However, the human gods have abandoned Tyria and their domains as well, seemingly having moved on to another world where they hope to transplant humans onto eventually. While there would normally be huge lore implications for everything that happened, up to and including his death, Divinity's Reach and the human's hounds of Balthazar elite won't change, DR because it's stuck in time and hounds of Balthazar because it's a skill that players have gotten accustomed to.

Nothing, not for lore reasons but design reasons. Divinity's Reach is simply "stuck in time" in 1325 AE, when Balthazar was - to all human knowledge, not actuality - one of the Six.

We

might

get a reference from future interactions with Anise or some other NPC going "we're renaming that area" but it won't be visible to players no doubt.

I'm curious why this was addressed, since in the very thing you quoted I mentioned nothing would happen in Divinity's Reach because it was stuck in time.

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Untrue, the gods told humanity they were leaving as far back as Nightfall.

So why is it news to the priestess of Kormir that the gods have abandoned Tyria and their domains entirely?

You're once more conflating two different things. Humanity knew why the gods went silent - they left Tyria in mortal hands. But what they didn't know is what the gods were doing. They had thought (and for a while, rightly so) that the gods were still watching over them, and believed (wrongfully so) that the gods would step in should things become too dire. Now they know that the gods are neither watching over them nor will they ever step in.

That's the difference.

Also, the gods hadn't abandoned their own domains until recently as well.

Yeah i guess I messed up there.

@castlemanic.3198 said:Kormir was directly correcting what Rytlock was saying,

that Balthazar was one of the Six

. There's enough ambiguity to wonder if he's been replaced at all. I'm with you that the likeliest case is that Balthazar was replaced, but we don't have 100% confirmation of such just yet.

I would disagree, personally. But then we're nitpicking over the meaning of a metaphorical speaker.

But there's more than that one line. There's also the nature of the gods' power, and the fact that they didn't simply strip Abaddon of power. Their actions with Abaddon shows that they

need

a living vessel for the magic, otherwise they could have just done the same as with Balthazar if Balthazar's divinity didn't get put into a successor.

That is a fair point.

Also, skipped over some stuff cause Sajuuk already corrected me on them.

EDIT: That last point actually leads to another question in my mind, which I can come up with answers for but I still think it's an interesting point to address.

Why didn't they contain Balthazar like they contained Abaddon? Or conversely, why didn't they strip Abaddon of his divinity like they did with Balthazar.

The immediate thought behind why they didn't contain Balthazar was that they were leaving their domains, which means the work they would have done could possibly be undone by that action alone, so it makes more sense to strip his divinity (and still contain him). But for Abaddon, was he simply too powerful to have his divinity stripped or something? Or is this a case of different writers, different stories.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@castlemanic.3198 said:Why didn't they contain Balthazar like they contained Abaddon? Or conversely, why didn't they strip Abaddon of his divinity like they did with Balthazar.

The immediate thought behind why they didn't contain Balthazar was that they were leaving their domains, which means the work they would have done could possibly be undone by that action alone, so it makes more sense to strip his divinity (and still contain him). But for Abaddon, was he simply too powerful to have his divinity stripped or something? Or is this a case of different writers, different stories.Abbadon was contained the way he was because they didn't have a vessel to move his power into. Balthazar needed far less because most of his power was taken from him and seemingly moved into a new host.

Or, more simply, they couldn't find anyone they felt was worthy of Abbadon's power at the time, while they apparently felt they had a worthy vessel for Balthazar's power.

[castlemanic.3198]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:Why didn't they contain Balthazar like they contained Abaddon? Or conversely, why didn't they strip Abaddon of his divinity like they did with Balthazar.

The immediate thought behind why they didn't contain Balthazar was that they were leaving their domains, which means the work they would have done could possibly be undone by that action alone, so it makes more sense to strip his divinity (and still contain him). But for Abaddon, was he simply too powerful to have his divinity stripped or something? Or is this a case of different writers, different stories.Abbadon was contained the way he was because they didn't have a vessel to move his power into. Balthazar needed far less because most of his power was taken from him and seemingly moved into a new host.

Or, more simply, they couldn't find anyone they felt was worthy of Abbadon's power at the time, while they apparently felt they had a worthy vessel for Balthazar's power.

You know, I feel like that should have been obvious to me.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@castlemanic.3198 said:That last point actually leads to another question in my mind, which I can come up with answers for but I still think it's an interesting point to address.

Why didn't they contain Balthazar like they contained Abaddon? Or conversely, why didn't they strip Abaddon of his divinity like they did with Balthazar.

The immediate thought behind why they didn't contain Balthazar was that they were leaving their domains, which means the work they would have done could possibly be undone by that action alone, so it makes more sense to strip his divinity (and still contain him). But for Abaddon, was he simply too powerful to have his divinity stripped or something? Or is this a case of different writers, different stories.

They did contain Balthazar. He was imprisoned - presumably within the Fissure of Woe given the background of that cinematic (both have a lot of chains from the sky). But it was Balthazar who forged Abaddon's chains, so the chains that were used on Balthazar likely were of much weaker quality.

The only real question is why didn't they strip Abaddon of his divinity? The most obvious answer, which I want to say was said by Jeff Grubb at one point, was that they needed a worthy successor. This implies they had such for Balthazar at the time.

[draxynnic.3719]

The idea that they might have ascended the GW1 player character is an interesting one, and if the identity of the new God of War is deliberately to be kept a mystery, then it does open up the door for that. On the other hand, it would require that it be kept a mystery indefinitely.

Now, when it comes to Balthazar's worshippers...

My expectation is that they'll split. There'll be some that continue to honour his memory and/or claim he was in the right all along, similar to (and, possibly, somewhat foreshadowed by) that priest of Abaddon in Siren's Landing. Over time, however, Balthazar worship will probably diminish and become regarded more of a morality tale than a deity to be worshiped.

Assuming that no new holder of the mantle is revealed (and that humans don't go full-on atheist, which would be a shame from a lore perspective but it wouldn't surprise me the way the story is going), then I expect that the domains once associated with Balthazar will drift to other gods. We saw something similar in GW1 during Abaddon's absence: aspects that would otherwise have been associated with Abaddon became attributed to other gods instead, primarily Grenth. Kormir might end up filling the same spot in the absence of a formal god of war: as a leader of a military organisation in life, she's a good fit, and since that military organisation was, after all, the Sunspears, she may even end up becoming the deity that is invoked by fire elementalists as well, similar to how Grenth was the patron of water elementalists in GW1's time even though the domain of water still technically belonged to Abaddon.