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ANET balance team should be required to play each class for a day for 2 weeks in pvp.

Kickpuncher.8109

By Kickpuncher.8109
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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text kitten).

Interrupting skills is one of the most skilful things you can do in this game, rewarding the proper timing of limited CC in that way is not unhealthy. The original devs knew this and it's why CI interrupt was always a playable but never strong build. Remember cleansing back then far outstripped condition application so removing the immob was quite easy and there were trade offs because to go so deep into chaos meant either no IP or no damage/anything else tbh.

What isn't healthy is having 20+ CC skills being cycled every 40s. Which is what people have started complaining about recently, the amount of CC around.

Yes the interrupt mechanic itself is skillful but as always it depends on how interrupt rewards are designed and as said old CI was like making Warrior hammer skills instant and range, that would be broken as hell no matter what cds the skills have, when landing one of two of them on a random autoattack is already enough to turn the fight in your favor with zero counterplay. That is what old CI was since game release, it never was healthy or not broken. That is rly simple balance logic, instant range lock down cc should not exist. If you want to play skillful interrupt Mesmer you have to do it without Chaosline in the first place but for sure without old CI and that since game release. That Powermes was still not rly played with it in conquest had other reasons (it still was hardcountered by Thief for example). In duels and WvW it always was a strong, easy to play and broken option.

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Ghostof Luzifer.6159

Ghostof Luzifer.6159

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Ghostof Luzifer.6159" said:to think mirage isnt viable is just delusional. It is hard to pull off that doesnt mean the potential isnt there. Viability isnt defined by how easy something is to play rather by the potential to lead to success.

You're caught up in semantics. Regardless how you want to define "viable", the most you can do in support of your argument that Mirage is currently viable is point to a single: (1) very niche use (portal play), (2) by a top player (Misha), (3) only made possible by fellow top players in a pro mAT comp, (4) that prompted a couple other non-Mirage mains on opposing team to run Mirage only for counter portal play.

Can you honestly say all these stars align for many other Mirage players? Can you honestly say serving as a portal slave represents viable build diversity for players in the other 99% of Conquest situations? More importantly, imagine applying this same standard to every other class and calling them perfectly viable when only the top player of each one can make it work, in a very unique context. I mean, if you think that only 9 or so people should play this game, why not apply the same viability standard to all professions?

I am not caught up in semantics, of course if we just bend the meaning of the words we are using anyhting can be true. But by definition of the word mirage is viable for both ranked and 5v5 organized teamplay. You can make it work if you are good enough. > Can you honestly say all these stars align for many other Mirage players? Can you honestly say serving as a portal slave represents viable build diversity for players in the other 99% of Conquest situations?That doesnt matter! It isnt about what most players can or cant do. It is about the potential of the build. Woould it maybe easier to climb with other buiilds? Yes. Does it matter for the viability question? No, the question that matterss is CAN you climb with it? The answer for this question is yes you can succeed with mirage. Is it therefore viable? Yes. Is it opitmal? No prob not.Also the logic of counterspecing portal not mirage is similar to saying teams are specing revs for their dmg and core necs for their shroud survivability.. Of course, that makes the builds good. Portal is not separable of the build. The current build has portal and it is part of what makes it strong in its role as a bursty roamer. (I am denying the validity of the arguement. I also disagree that portal is the only reason mirage is picked. If mirage had nothing else but portal it wouldnt be worth to pick. Sind even said that mirage has a lot of dmg + good survivability.) Portal is also strong in ranked btw. Fact is that mirage still has a lot of dmg. When you +1 a target you can easily burst them down when combining your burst wisely with your ccs. It also has a lot of ways to escape: stealth, mobility, portal, distortion (twice). The framework of the class is strong enough for players to succeed with. The conclusion therefore is that by definition of the word mirage is viable. It might not be optimal or easy nor do alot of players play the class, but it is viable.

How is this such a hot take?Edit: Mirage currently feels a little like core shatter mesmer used to feel just with condis. Countered by thiefs, bursty, +1portal gameplay, hard to play but worth it if you are good enough, bad in 1v1. I really like that. I used to main mesmer in core with 3k games on memser. I quit shortly before hot and came back shortly before pof and then hated the playstyle of mirage. I swithced classes to holo and war. I am really happy about the changes and I so hope cmc doesnt go back on them. I dont mind if he buffs mesmer a little or nerfs overperforming classes as long as mirage doesnt beccome such a facerole class again.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:to think mirage isnt viable is just delusional. It is hard to pull off that doesnt mean the potential isnt there. Viability isnt defined by how easy something is to play rather by the potential to lead to success.

You're caught up in semantics. Regardless how you want to define "viable", the most you can do in support of your argument that Mirage is currently viable is point to a single: (1) very niche use (portal play), (2) by a top player (Misha), (3) only made possible by fellow top players in a pro mAT comp, (4) that prompted a couple other non-Mirage mains on opposing team to run Mirage only for counter portal play.

Can you honestly say all these stars align for many other Mirage players? Can you honestly say serving as a portal slave represents viable build diversity for players in the other 99% of Conquest situations? More importantly, imagine applying this same standard to every other class and calling them perfectly viable when only the top player of each one can make it work, in a very unique context. I mean, if you think that only 9 or so people should play this game, why not apply the same viability standard to all professions?

I am not caught up in semantics, of course if we just bend the meaning of the words we are using anyhting can be true. But by definition of the word mirage is viable for both ranked and 5v5 organized teamplay. You can make it work if you are good enough. > Can you honestly say all these stars align for many other Mirage players? Can you honestly say serving as a portal slave represents viable build diversity for players in the other 99% of Conquest situations?That doesnt matter! It isnt about what most players can or cant do. It is about the potential of the build. Woould it maybe easier to climb with other buiilds? Yes. Does it matter for the viability question? No, the question that matterss is CAN you climb with it? The answer for this question is yes you can succeed with mirage. Is it therefore viable? Yes. Is it opitmal? No prob not.Also the logic of counterspecing portal not mirage is similar to saying teams are specing revs for their dmg and core necs for their shroud survivability.. Of course, that makes the builds good. Portal is not separable of the build. The current build has portal and it is part of what makes it strong in its role as a bursty roamer. (I am denying the validity of the arguement. I also disagree that portal is the only reason mirage is picked. If mirage had nothing else but portal it wouldnt be worth to pick. Sind even said that mirage has a lot of dmg + good survivability.) Portal is also strong in ranked btw. Fact is that mirage still has a lot of dmg. When you +1 a target you can easily burst them down when combining your burst wisely with your ccs. It also has a lot of ways to escape: stealth, mobility, portal, distortion (twice). The framework of the class is strong enough for players to succeed with. The conclusion therefore is that by definition of the word mirage is viable. It might not be optimal or easy nor do alot of players play the class, but it is viable.

How is this such a hot take?Edit: Mirage currently feels a little like core shatter mesmer used to feel just with condis. Countered by thiefs, bursty, +1portal gameplay, hard to play but worth it if you are good enough, bad in 1v1. I really like that. I used to main mesmer in core with 3k games on memser. I quit shortly before hot and came back shortly before pof and then hated the playstyle of mirage. I swithced classes to holo and war. I am really happy about the changes and I so hope cmc doesnt go back on them. I dont mind if he buffs mesmer a little or nerfs overperforming classes as long as mirage doesnt beccome such a facerole class again.

There is that many stuff i disagree to but i don't want to write wall of text again about why the one dodge change was bad and why there would have been much better ways of nerfing Condimirage (and ONLY Condimirage) to a balanced post patch lvl with higher skill ceiling in the Miragetraitline itself without deleting one dodge and with that skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from the whole traitline and without dumbing down and overnerfing way more skillful and healthy Powermirage as a spin off. Old Condimirage was faceroll because of too op and too passive condi ambushes (from clones) and because of that high passive condi dmg also could spec into also passive and unhealthy Chaosline for even more sustain while not even in need to dodge offensive a single time for any ambush reward because pure defensive dodges were already enough to get high rewards from IH/ condi clone ambushes (means Condimirage avoided to have any opportunity costs in dodgemanagement you have on power builds and are supposed to be there to balance out strong MC and IH/ambush mechanic by itself). All those faceroll aspects still exist, they didn't get solved at all by the one dodge change. Just like EM is not a dodge traits adds any skill ceiling just provides some mostly passive sustain when factanking too many condis. Ofc Mirage now feels more like a core Mesmer because the current meta build simply avoids as much overnerfed but still passive (on condi) Mirage mechanics as possible while keeping the one thing it has to offer (bit more mobility than core even with only one dodge) while compensating the one dodge with using a low skill ceiling weapon (axe) with toxic retargeting mechanic should not exist at all on Mirage.

@bravan.3876 said:That some classes are way too tanky atm is rly common sense and that roaming +1 builds suffer in effectiveness from that (not only Thief) is undenyable too. That doesn't change the fact that Mirage needs to be babysitted by Rev/ Thief to not be perma dead. Having good synergy from some utilities only Mesmer has to offer on a roaming build (portal, boon rip, what are all core abilities btw) with some decent condi dmg to support Rev/ Thief dmg also doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change was utterly garbage for the whole spec. The moment you don't need 3 synergized roaming classes to kill something tanky and boonspammy and ppl have to decide what 1-2 roamer they want to have in their team it is either Condimirage only because of portal with the other roamer needs to babysit it or just Rev+ Thief/ double Rev can roam independent without the need to be babysitted and peeled for all time, what maybe has more value in terms of fast rotation and fast +1 than portal. We will see that when the bunker and boonspam stuff finally will get nerfed in a proper way. Atm one Mirage is just lucky it can be babysitted by 2 other roamers, even being the best of those classes in the game, while they need and can 3v1 ppl.And Powermirage will not be seen at all even though it is the way more skilled and healthier playstyle should be made viable instead overkilling it to make a way easier and less healthy condiplaystyle less op while not even solving the issues making it op in the first place. Instead of the one dodge change what contradicts basic game design of skillful not spammy dodgemanagement just as contradicting the Mirage mechanic itself, they simply should have reworked condi ambushes what would have had the same effect on condi playstyle but with adding skill ceiling to Condimirage instead overnerfing and dumbing down every power playstyle as a spin off for no reason.

Also when using your simple and minimum definition of viable (what is not rly fitting for gaming as already explained, scroll up if you want to know) then everything is viable, for certain in ranked with random teams and even in ATs when you are able to dedicate 2 other players to babysit and carry a build that then has 1-2 good abilities (boon rip, portal, not even Mirage specific abilities) to offer when staying alive that hard protected in a team that dominated that hard anyway. Still as mentioned several times already, the semi viability when very specific and a lot of circumstances make it work, is not even the relevant factor for analyzing the one dodge change. It is a bad change because it dumbs down the Miragetraitline without even solving the issues of the traitline (it only avoids the exisiting issues by pressuring Mirages out of Mirage mechanics like IH with too passive condi ambushes and still passive and braindead Chaosline, while condiambushes are still wrong designed, still op and passive by itself just like Chaosline is still passive, low skill ceiling and unhealthy) while also overkilling way more skillful and healthy power playstyle for no reason.

To nerf Condimirage (and ONLY Condimirage) in a way that adds skill ceiling to condiplaystyle (Condimirage still only get passive stuff out of that traitline, condiambushes are still wrong desinged and for that 100% passive, EM is just another more passive dodge trait is chosen instead, the new condiburst build is not hard to play, only that it is now a roamer with portal instead a simple side node bot makes it a little bit more skilled) and without unnecessary dumbing down and overnerfing Powermirage, all Anet needs to do is to give the dodge back and rework condi ambushes instead. It would have the exact same effect than the one dodge change but without all the unnecessary high costs for the traitline in terms of lower skill ceiling, less tactical deepness and less mechanical complexity and without the spin off overnerf to power builds.

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dikkejonko.5803

dikkejonko.5803

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"Kickpuncher.8109" said:Cause it sure feels like ANET balance team is solely going off of metrics and numbers and not playing their own game.

While losing time playing the game if you can ask the "knowledgeable community" what needs a nerf and what needs a buff.

"knowledgeable community" with 1million opinions all contradicting eachother. yes

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dikkejonko.5803

dikkejonko.5803

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@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

look this guy can't fathom that for everyone they please they displease others. These are forums of a game what do you expect dude, people talking bout the great weather?

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text kitten).

Interrupting skills is one of the most skilful things you can do in this game, rewarding the proper timing of limited CC in that way is not unhealthy. The original devs knew this and it's why CI interrupt was always a playable but never strong build. Remember cleansing back then far outstripped condition application so removing the immob was quite easy and there were trade offs because to go so deep into chaos meant either no IP or no damage/anything else tbh.

What isn't healthy is having 20+ CC skills being cycled every 40s. Which is what people have started complaining about recently, the amount of CC around.

Yes the interrupt mechanic itself is skillful but as always it depends on how interrupt rewards are designed and as said old CI was like making Warrior hammer skills instant and range, that would be broken as hell no matter what cds the skills have, when landing one of two of them on a random autoattack is already enough to turn the fight in your favor with zero counterplay. That is what old CI was since game release, it never was healthy or not broken. That is rly simple balance logic, instant range lock down cc should not exist. If you want to play skillful interrupt Mesmer you have to do it without Chaosline in the first place but for sure without old CI and that since game release. That Powermes was still not rly played with it in conquest had other reasons (it still was hardcountered by Thief for example). In duels and WvW it always was a strong, easy to play and broken option.

That's your opinion but you're factually wrong while being inaccurate to boot.It was an immobilise which could be cleansed and everyone had a plethora of cleanses back then and many of them could stunbreak to boot.It was only ranged and instant with mantra of distraction, which had a 20s recharge, almost 3s cast and 5s between activation. Everything else on the interrupt build had a cast or travel time at range.You say it yourself and even worded it perfectly "That is rly simple balance logic, instant range lock down cc should not exist." your problem was the instant ranged CC which is never guaranteed to proc CI. You should try figuring this out if it's not a problem with all the other CC skills but only with 1.

Further evidence that it wasn't broken comes from it never having been picked in any meta build pre PoF even when they used chaos trait line, even when only using 2 stealth abilities it was always better to take 3s extra stealth and some random boons over CI because it was easily nullified by "just cleanse" and stab was on so many builds making interrupts hard to get.Edit: Forgot to add, you don't counter interrupt builds with auto attacks. If people proc interrupt traits off your autos you're playing wrong.This was actually the same problem with PI, the problem with PI was largely not the damage, it was that thief always had CC ready to proc it thanks to headshot being so fast, ranged and such a low cost vs value for the thief. Oh look history repeated itself when mesmer had enough CC to match their rate of CC.Finally we have this classic where the top shatter mesmer fought the top CI mesmer, something Rylock has even said he hates how this video starts talking about the results of this clash of build. Face it, CI was never broken.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text kitten).

Interrupting skills is one of the most skilful things you can do in this game, rewarding the proper timing of limited CC in that way is not unhealthy. The original devs knew this and it's why CI interrupt was always a playable but never strong build. Remember cleansing back then far outstripped condition application so removing the immob was quite easy and there were trade offs because to go so deep into chaos meant either no IP or no damage/anything else tbh.

What isn't healthy is having 20+ CC skills being cycled every 40s. Which is what people have started complaining about recently, the amount of CC around.

Yes the interrupt mechanic itself is skillful but as always it depends on how interrupt rewards are designed and as said old CI was like making Warrior hammer skills instant and range, that would be broken as hell no matter what cds the skills have, when landing one of two of them on a random autoattack is already enough to turn the fight in your favor with zero counterplay. That is what old CI was since game release, it never was healthy or not broken. That is rly simple balance logic, instant range lock down cc should not exist. If you want to play skillful interrupt Mesmer you have to do it without Chaosline in the first place but for sure without old CI and that since game release. That Powermes was still not rly played with it in conquest had other reasons (it still was hardcountered by Thief for example). In duels and WvW it always was a strong, easy to play and broken option.

That's your opinion but you're factually wrong while being inaccurate to boot.It was an immobilise which could be cleansed and everyone had a plethora of cleanses back then and many of them could stunbreak to boot.It was only ranged and instant with mantra of distraction, which had a 20s recharge, almost 3s cast and 5s between activation. Everything else on the interrupt build had a cast or travel time at range.You say it yourself and even worded it perfectly "That is rly simple balance logic,
instant range lock down cc
should not exist." your problem was the instant ranged CC which is never guaranteed to proc CI. You should try figuring this out if it's not a problem with all the other CC skills but only with 1.

Further evidence that it wasn't broken comes from it never having been picked in any meta build pre PoF even when they used chaos trait line, even when only using 2 stealth abilities it was always better to take 3s extra stealth and some random boons over CI because it was easily nullified by "just cleanse" and stab was on so many builds making interrupts hard to get.Edit: Forgot to add, you don't counter interrupt builds with auto attacks. If people proc interrupt traits off your autos you're playing wrong.This was actually the same problem with PI, the problem with PI was largely not the damage, it was that thief always had CC ready to proc it thanks to headshot being so fast, ranged and such a low cost vs value for the thief. Oh look history repeated itself when mesmer had enough CC to match their rate of CC.Finally we have this classic where the top shatter mesmer fought the top CI mesmer, something Rylock has even said he hates how this video starts talking about the results of this clash of build. Face it, CI was never broken.

As said Mantra always was instant and it doesn't matter how much cd it has when hitting one or to random interupts on autoattacks with an insatnt range interrupt tool is enough to win the fight. The interrupt reward always was too strong, broken enough to reward a simple lucky random autoattack interrupt with a win. When hitting autoattacks is enough to win a fight then there is zero counterplay to it, except of just not fighing it and running away. When you want skillful reactive and with that balanced interrupt playstyle that needs to hit specific keyskills to be rewarding enough, then you need an instant interrupt tool like Mantra otherwise you cannot interrupt fast-cast keyskills on purpose without having godlike reflexes and NASA connection. Means all interrupt traits needs to be balanced around an instant interupt tool. That was not given for old CI. Only when interrupting needs to hit keyskills to be a real danger, means the opponent can cover those keyskills and bait interrupt skills by stowing etc. means can coutner to be itnerupted on keyskills in different way instead need to hide every simple autoattack (what means not attacking at all and just leaving) then MoD has coutnerplay, otherwise not.Daze+immob is also more than a simple lock down stun because it needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to be countered. So even when not instant and ranged it would still be very problematic. Immob on interrupt is just a bad consept in general.But we can agree to disagree here.

Did Rylock duel Helseth mirror shatter after that to prove how he then would win easy? Sry but Rylock lost a MU he was heavily favored (because in particular Powermes got countered hard by old CI if not countered with an stealth heavy build to not be easy interupted on every well telepraphed skill and telepraphed autoattack when oneshotting out of stealth). Rylock without Chaoline carry would have been an even easier kill for Helseth.

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text kitten).

Interrupting skills is one of the most skilful things you can do in this game, rewarding the proper timing of limited CC in that way is not unhealthy. The original devs knew this and it's why CI interrupt was always a playable but never strong build. Remember cleansing back then far outstripped condition application so removing the immob was quite easy and there were trade offs because to go so deep into chaos meant either no IP or no damage/anything else tbh.

What isn't healthy is having 20+ CC skills being cycled every 40s. Which is what people have started complaining about recently, the amount of CC around.

Yes the interrupt mechanic itself is skillful but as always it depends on how interrupt rewards are designed and as said old CI was like making Warrior hammer skills instant and range, that would be broken as hell no matter what cds the skills have, when landing one of two of them on a random autoattack is already enough to turn the fight in your favor with zero counterplay. That is what old CI was since game release, it never was healthy or not broken. That is rly simple balance logic, instant range lock down cc should not exist. If you want to play skillful interrupt Mesmer you have to do it without Chaosline in the first place but for sure without old CI and that since game release. That Powermes was still not rly played with it in conquest had other reasons (it still was hardcountered by Thief for example). In duels and WvW it always was a strong, easy to play and broken option.

That's your opinion but you're factually wrong while being inaccurate to boot.It was an immobilise which could be cleansed and everyone had a plethora of cleanses back then and many of them could stunbreak to boot.It was only ranged and instant with mantra of distraction, which had a 20s recharge, almost 3s cast and 5s between activation. Everything else on the interrupt build had a cast or travel time at range.You say it yourself and even worded it perfectly "That is rly simple balance logic,
instant range lock down cc
should not exist." your problem was the instant ranged CC which is never guaranteed to proc CI. You should try figuring this out if it's not a problem with all the other CC skills but only with 1.

Further evidence that it wasn't broken comes from it never having been picked in any meta build pre PoF even when they used chaos trait line, even when only using 2 stealth abilities it was always better to take 3s extra stealth and some random boons over CI because it was easily nullified by "just cleanse" and stab was on so many builds making interrupts hard to get.Edit: Forgot to add, you don't counter interrupt builds with auto attacks. If people proc interrupt traits off your autos you're playing wrong.This was actually the same problem with PI, the problem with PI was largely not the damage, it was that thief always had CC ready to proc it thanks to headshot being so fast, ranged and such a low cost vs value for the thief. Oh look history repeated itself when mesmer had enough CC to match their rate of CC.Finally we have this classic where the top shatter mesmer fought the top CI mesmer, something Rylock has even said he hates how this video starts talking about the results of this clash of build. Face it, CI was never broken.

As said Mantra always was instant and it doesn't matter how much cd it has when hitting one or to random interupts on autoattacks with an insatnt range interrupt tool is enough to win the fight. The interrupt reward always was too strong, broken enough to reward a simple lucky random autoattack interrupt with a win. When hitting autoattacks is enough to win a fight then there is zero counterplay to it, except of just not fighing it and running away. When you want skillful reactive and with that balanced interrupt playstyle that needs to hit specific keyskills to be rewarding enough, then you need an instant interrupt tool like Mantra otherwise you cannot interrupt fast-cast keyskills on purpose without having godlike reflexes and NASA connection. Means all interrupt traits needs to be balanced around an instant interupt tool. That was not given for old CI. Only when interrupting needs to hit keyskills to be a real danger, means the opponent can cover those keyskills and bait interrupt skills by stowing etc. means can coutner to be itnerupted on keyskills in different way instead need to hide every simple autoattack (what means not attacking at all and just leaving) then MoD has coutnerplay, otherwise not.Daze+immob is also more than a simple lock down stun because it needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to be countered. So even when not instant and ranged it would still be very problematic. Immob on interrupt is just a bad consept in general.But we can agree to disagree here.

Did Rylock duel Helseth mirror shatter after that to prove how he then would win easy? Sry but Rylock lost a MU he was heavily favored (because in particular Powermes got countered hard by old CI if not countered with an stealth heavy build to not be easy interupted on every well telepraphed skill and telepraphed autoattack when oneshotting out of stealth). Rylock without Chaoline carry would have been an even easier kill for Helseth.

I'm ignoring the first part for both our sake and just say I disagree with your premise as outlined previously.

As far as I know Helseth played his normal power shatter which likely was exactly as you see in the video, though wouldn't use moa and essentially have no elite. Helseth at that point and I believe even now duels on the build he will use in team play because there's no point for him to learn to counter something if he'd normally not play it or it has components that would make him weaker to his team in 5v5. Why did Helseth win? He knew how to fight interrupt builds by covering your casts and not to spam skills, other classes would use stab and cleanses to reduce CI effectiveness. Rylock lost because it was a weaker build and had real trade offs for taking CI, something condi mirage didn't have because ambush skills gave so much extra damage baseline.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text kitten).

Interrupting skills is one of the most skilful things you can do in this game, rewarding the proper timing of limited CC in that way is not unhealthy. The original devs knew this and it's why CI interrupt was always a playable but never strong build. Remember cleansing back then far outstripped condition application so removing the immob was quite easy and there were trade offs because to go so deep into chaos meant either no IP or no damage/anything else tbh.

What isn't healthy is having 20+ CC skills being cycled every 40s. Which is what people have started complaining about recently, the amount of CC around.

Yes the interrupt mechanic itself is skillful but as always it depends on how interrupt rewards are designed and as said old CI was like making Warrior hammer skills instant and range, that would be broken as hell no matter what cds the skills have, when landing one of two of them on a random autoattack is already enough to turn the fight in your favor with zero counterplay. That is what old CI was since game release, it never was healthy or not broken. That is rly simple balance logic, instant range lock down cc should not exist. If you want to play skillful interrupt Mesmer you have to do it without Chaosline in the first place but for sure without old CI and that since game release. That Powermes was still not rly played with it in conquest had other reasons (it still was hardcountered by Thief for example). In duels and WvW it always was a strong, easy to play and broken option.

That's your opinion but you're factually wrong while being inaccurate to boot.It was an immobilise which could be cleansed and everyone had a plethora of cleanses back then and many of them could stunbreak to boot.It was only ranged and instant with mantra of distraction, which had a 20s recharge, almost 3s cast and 5s between activation. Everything else on the interrupt build had a cast or travel time at range.You say it yourself and even worded it perfectly "That is rly simple balance logic,
instant range lock down cc
should not exist." your problem was the instant ranged CC which is never guaranteed to proc CI. You should try figuring this out if it's not a problem with all the other CC skills but only with 1.

Further evidence that it wasn't broken comes from it never having been picked in any meta build pre PoF even when they used chaos trait line, even when only using 2 stealth abilities it was always better to take 3s extra stealth and some random boons over CI because it was easily nullified by "just cleanse" and stab was on so many builds making interrupts hard to get.Edit: Forgot to add, you don't counter interrupt builds with auto attacks. If people proc interrupt traits off your autos you're playing wrong.This was actually the same problem with PI, the problem with PI was largely not the damage, it was that thief always had CC ready to proc it thanks to headshot being so fast, ranged and such a low cost vs value for the thief. Oh look history repeated itself when mesmer had enough CC to match their rate of CC.Finally we have this classic where the top shatter mesmer fought the top CI mesmer, something Rylock has even said he hates how this video starts talking about the results of this clash of build. Face it, CI was never broken.

As said Mantra always was instant and it doesn't matter how much cd it has when hitting one or to random interupts on autoattacks with an insatnt range interrupt tool is enough to win the fight. The interrupt reward always was too strong, broken enough to reward a simple lucky random autoattack interrupt with a win. When hitting autoattacks is enough to win a fight then there is zero counterplay to it, except of just not fighing it and running away. When you want skillful reactive and with that balanced interrupt playstyle that needs to hit specific keyskills to be rewarding enough, then you need an instant interrupt tool like Mantra otherwise you cannot interrupt fast-cast keyskills on purpose without having godlike reflexes and NASA connection. Means all interrupt traits needs to be balanced around an instant interupt tool. That was not given for old CI. Only when interrupting needs to hit keyskills to be a real danger, means the opponent can cover those keyskills and bait interrupt skills by stowing etc. means can coutner to be itnerupted on keyskills in different way instead need to hide every simple autoattack (what means not attacking at all and just leaving) then MoD has coutnerplay, otherwise not.Daze+immob is also more than a simple lock down stun because it needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to be countered. So even when not instant and ranged it would still be very problematic. Immob on interrupt is just a bad consept in general.But we can agree to disagree here.

Did Rylock duel Helseth mirror shatter after that to prove how he then would win easy? Sry but Rylock lost a MU he was heavily favored (because in particular Powermes got countered hard by old CI if not countered with an stealth heavy build to not be easy interupted on every well telepraphed skill and telepraphed autoattack when oneshotting out of stealth). Rylock without Chaoline carry would have been an even easier kill for Helseth.

I'm ignoring the first part for both our sake and just say I disagree with your premise as outlined previously.

As far as I know Helseth played his normal power shatter which likely was exactly as you see in the video, though wouldn't use moa and essentially have no elite. Helseth at that point and I believe even now duels on the build he will use in team play because there's no point for him to learn to counter something if he'd normally not play it or it has components that would make him weaker to his team in 5v5. Why did Helseth win? He knew how to fight interrupt builds by covering your casts and not to spam skills, other classes would use stab and cleanses to reduce CI effectiveness. Rylock lost because it was a weaker build and had real trade offs for taking CI, something condi mirage didn't have because ambush skills gave so much extra damage baseline.

We disagree here. Ci Chaos was insanely favored over standard power shatter in duels, Rylock lost because he got outskilled hard by Helseth, that is what i think. And if you cannot come up with mirrror build duels of these players then showing clearly more wins on Rylocks side then we will never know who is right i guess. I barely remember Rylock, he doesn't play since ages if i am not mistaken but when i remember him right i would even more bet on the outskilled not out-build part.I agree that Condimirage had other stuff in addtion made it even more oppressive (passive clone dmg from ambushes).

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text kitten).

Interrupting skills is one of the most skilful things you can do in this game, rewarding the proper timing of limited CC in that way is not unhealthy. The original devs knew this and it's why CI interrupt was always a playable but never strong build. Remember cleansing back then far outstripped condition application so removing the immob was quite easy and there were trade offs because to go so deep into chaos meant either no IP or no damage/anything else tbh.

What isn't healthy is having 20+ CC skills being cycled every 40s. Which is what people have started complaining about recently, the amount of CC around.

Yes the interrupt mechanic itself is skillful but as always it depends on how interrupt rewards are designed and as said old CI was like making Warrior hammer skills instant and range, that would be broken as hell no matter what cds the skills have, when landing one of two of them on a random autoattack is already enough to turn the fight in your favor with zero counterplay. That is what old CI was since game release, it never was healthy or not broken. That is rly simple balance logic, instant range lock down cc should not exist. If you want to play skillful interrupt Mesmer you have to do it without Chaosline in the first place but for sure without old CI and that since game release. That Powermes was still not rly played with it in conquest had other reasons (it still was hardcountered by Thief for example). In duels and WvW it always was a strong, easy to play and broken option.

That's your opinion but you're factually wrong while being inaccurate to boot.It was an immobilise which could be cleansed and everyone had a plethora of cleanses back then and many of them could stunbreak to boot.It was only ranged and instant with mantra of distraction, which had a 20s recharge, almost 3s cast and 5s between activation. Everything else on the interrupt build had a cast or travel time at range.You say it yourself and even worded it perfectly "That is rly simple balance logic,
instant range lock down cc
should not exist." your problem was the instant ranged CC which is never guaranteed to proc CI. You should try figuring this out if it's not a problem with all the other CC skills but only with 1.

Further evidence that it wasn't broken comes from it never having been picked in any meta build pre PoF even when they used chaos trait line, even when only using 2 stealth abilities it was always better to take 3s extra stealth and some random boons over CI because it was easily nullified by "just cleanse" and stab was on so many builds making interrupts hard to get.Edit: Forgot to add, you don't counter interrupt builds with auto attacks. If people proc interrupt traits off your autos you're playing wrong.This was actually the same problem with PI, the problem with PI was largely not the damage, it was that thief always had CC ready to proc it thanks to headshot being so fast, ranged and such a low cost vs value for the thief. Oh look history repeated itself when mesmer had enough CC to match their rate of CC.Finally we have this classic where the top shatter mesmer fought the top CI mesmer, something Rylock has even said he hates how this video starts talking about the results of this clash of build. Face it, CI was never broken.

As said Mantra always was instant and it doesn't matter how much cd it has when hitting one or to random interupts on autoattacks with an insatnt range interrupt tool is enough to win the fight. The interrupt reward always was too strong, broken enough to reward a simple lucky random autoattack interrupt with a win. When hitting autoattacks is enough to win a fight then there is zero counterplay to it, except of just not fighing it and running away. When you want skillful reactive and with that balanced interrupt playstyle that needs to hit specific keyskills to be rewarding enough, then you need an instant interrupt tool like Mantra otherwise you cannot interrupt fast-cast keyskills on purpose without having godlike reflexes and NASA connection. Means all interrupt traits needs to be balanced around an instant interupt tool. That was not given for old CI. Only when interrupting needs to hit keyskills to be a real danger, means the opponent can cover those keyskills and bait interrupt skills by stowing etc. means can coutner to be itnerupted on keyskills in different way instead need to hide every simple autoattack (what means not attacking at all and just leaving) then MoD has coutnerplay, otherwise not.Daze+immob is also more than a simple lock down stun because it needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to be countered. So even when not instant and ranged it would still be very problematic. Immob on interrupt is just a bad consept in general.But we can agree to disagree here.

Did Rylock duel Helseth mirror shatter after that to prove how he then would win easy? Sry but Rylock lost a MU he was heavily favored (because in particular Powermes got countered hard by old CI if not countered with an stealth heavy build to not be easy interupted on every well telepraphed skill and telepraphed autoattack when oneshotting out of stealth). Rylock without Chaoline carry would have been an even easier kill for Helseth.

I'm ignoring the first part for both our sake and just say I disagree with your premise as outlined previously.

As far as I know Helseth played his normal power shatter which likely was exactly as you see in the video, though wouldn't use moa and essentially have no elite. Helseth at that point and I believe even now duels on the build he will use in team play because there's no point for him to learn to counter something if he'd normally not play it or it has components that would make him weaker to his team in 5v5. Why did Helseth win? He knew how to fight interrupt builds by covering your casts and not to spam skills, other classes would use stab and cleanses to reduce CI effectiveness. Rylock lost because it was a weaker build and had real trade offs for taking CI, something condi mirage didn't have because ambush skills gave so much extra damage baseline.

We disagree here. Ci Chaos was insanely favored over standard power shatter in duels, Rylock lost because he got outskilled hard by Helseth, that is what i think. And if you cannot come up with mirrror build duels of these players then showing clearly more wins on Rylocks side then we will never know who is right i guess. I barely remember Rylock, he doesn't play since ages if i am not mistaken but when i remember him right i would even more bet on the outskilled not out-build part.I agree that Condimirage had other stuff in addtion made it even more oppressive (passive clone dmg from ambushes).

It's hard to find any duels of CI mesmer back then which aren't montaged and I can't find any from Rylock specifically however he was well known in the Official Mesmer Forum Guild [OMFG] for being the best interrupt mesmer in core. Don't get me wrong it wasn't a bad build it's just shatter was better and it had it's weaknesses, with very obvious counters if the CI build couldn't remove stab which required 20 in dom or arcane thievery which was buggy af.

I know this guy kept playing lockdown but wasn't as good as Rylock, this is from just before HoT and I honestly cannot see him getting value out of CI over buffing mind wrack and deleting people with GS:

From Rylock in 2014: "I kinda want to see lockdown beat this meta we are in and have a strong seat in everywhere but zerging (too much stability there). It needs a couple of small buffs and it should be great (like removing the cripple on CI please <3) " CI was only changed once after that in the specialisation update to have 5 might.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/The-Lockdown-Mesmer-Thread/page/2

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text kitten).

Interrupting skills is one of the most skilful things you can do in this game, rewarding the proper timing of limited CC in that way is not unhealthy. The original devs knew this and it's why CI interrupt was always a playable but never strong build. Remember cleansing back then far outstripped condition application so removing the immob was quite easy and there were trade offs because to go so deep into chaos meant either no IP or no damage/anything else tbh.

What isn't healthy is having 20+ CC skills being cycled every 40s. Which is what people have started complaining about recently, the amount of CC around.

Yes the interrupt mechanic itself is skillful but as always it depends on how interrupt rewards are designed and as said old CI was like making Warrior hammer skills instant and range, that would be broken as hell no matter what cds the skills have, when landing one of two of them on a random autoattack is already enough to turn the fight in your favor with zero counterplay. That is what old CI was since game release, it never was healthy or not broken. That is rly simple balance logic, instant range lock down cc should not exist. If you want to play skillful interrupt Mesmer you have to do it without Chaosline in the first place but for sure without old CI and that since game release. That Powermes was still not rly played with it in conquest had other reasons (it still was hardcountered by Thief for example). In duels and WvW it always was a strong, easy to play and broken option.

That's your opinion but you're factually wrong while being inaccurate to boot.It was an immobilise which could be cleansed and everyone had a plethora of cleanses back then and many of them could stunbreak to boot.It was only ranged and instant with mantra of distraction, which had a 20s recharge, almost 3s cast and 5s between activation. Everything else on the interrupt build had a cast or travel time at range.You say it yourself and even worded it perfectly "That is rly simple balance logic,
instant range lock down cc
should not exist." your problem was the instant ranged CC which is never guaranteed to proc CI. You should try figuring this out if it's not a problem with all the other CC skills but only with 1.

Further evidence that it wasn't broken comes from it never having been picked in any meta build pre PoF even when they used chaos trait line, even when only using 2 stealth abilities it was always better to take 3s extra stealth and some random boons over CI because it was easily nullified by "just cleanse" and stab was on so many builds making interrupts hard to get.Edit: Forgot to add, you don't counter interrupt builds with auto attacks. If people proc interrupt traits off your autos you're playing wrong.This was actually the same problem with PI, the problem with PI was largely not the damage, it was that thief always had CC ready to proc it thanks to headshot being so fast, ranged and such a low cost vs value for the thief. Oh look history repeated itself when mesmer had enough CC to match their rate of CC.Finally we have this classic where the top shatter mesmer fought the top CI mesmer, something Rylock has even said he hates how this video starts talking about the results of this clash of build. Face it, CI was never broken.

As said Mantra always was instant and it doesn't matter how much cd it has when hitting one or to random interupts on autoattacks with an insatnt range interrupt tool is enough to win the fight. The interrupt reward always was too strong, broken enough to reward a simple lucky random autoattack interrupt with a win. When hitting autoattacks is enough to win a fight then there is zero counterplay to it, except of just not fighing it and running away. When you want skillful reactive and with that balanced interrupt playstyle that needs to hit specific keyskills to be rewarding enough, then you need an instant interrupt tool like Mantra otherwise you cannot interrupt fast-cast keyskills on purpose without having godlike reflexes and NASA connection. Means all interrupt traits needs to be balanced around an instant interupt tool. That was not given for old CI. Only when interrupting needs to hit keyskills to be a real danger, means the opponent can cover those keyskills and bait interrupt skills by stowing etc. means can coutner to be itnerupted on keyskills in different way instead need to hide every simple autoattack (what means not attacking at all and just leaving) then MoD has coutnerplay, otherwise not.Daze+immob is also more than a simple lock down stun because it needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to be countered. So even when not instant and ranged it would still be very problematic. Immob on interrupt is just a bad consept in general.But we can agree to disagree here.

Did Rylock duel Helseth mirror shatter after that to prove how he then would win easy? Sry but Rylock lost a MU he was heavily favored (because in particular Powermes got countered hard by old CI if not countered with an stealth heavy build to not be easy interupted on every well telepraphed skill and telepraphed autoattack when oneshotting out of stealth). Rylock without Chaoline carry would have been an even easier kill for Helseth.

I'm ignoring the first part for both our sake and just say I disagree with your premise as outlined previously.

As far as I know Helseth played his normal power shatter which likely was exactly as you see in the video, though wouldn't use moa and essentially have no elite. Helseth at that point and I believe even now duels on the build he will use in team play because there's no point for him to learn to counter something if he'd normally not play it or it has components that would make him weaker to his team in 5v5. Why did Helseth win? He knew how to fight interrupt builds by covering your casts and not to spam skills, other classes would use stab and cleanses to reduce CI effectiveness. Rylock lost because it was a weaker build and had real trade offs for taking CI, something condi mirage didn't have because ambush skills gave so much extra damage baseline.

We disagree here. Ci Chaos was insanely favored over standard power shatter in duels, Rylock lost because he got outskilled hard by Helseth, that is what i think. And if you cannot come up with mirrror build duels of these players then showing clearly more wins on Rylocks side then we will never know who is right i guess. I barely remember Rylock, he doesn't play since ages if i am not mistaken but when i remember him right i would even more bet on the outskilled not out-build part.I agree that Condimirage had other stuff in addtion made it even more oppressive (passive clone dmg from ambushes).

It's hard to find any duels of CI mesmer back then which aren't montaged and I can't find any from Rylock specifically however he was well known in the Official Mesmer Forum Guild [kitten] for being the best interrupt mesmer in core. Don't get me wrong it wasn't a bad build it's just shatter was better and it had it's weaknesses, with very obvious counters if the CI build couldn't remove stab which required 20 in dom or arcane thievery which was buggy af.

I know this guy kept playing lockdown but wasn't as good as Rylock, this is from just before HoT and I honestly cannot see him getting value out of CI over buffing mind wrack and deleting people with GS:

From Rylock in 2014: "I kinda want to see lockdown beat this meta we are in and have a strong seat in everywhere but zerging (too much stability there). It needs a couple of small buffs and it should be great (like removing the cripple on CI please <3) " CI was only changed once after that in the specialisation update to have 5 might.

He doesn't get anything out of it because he plays staff (power i guess, hard to say he plays so inefficient i have a hard to time to see that) and barely makes good plays when he hits an interrupt and the immob. Exaggerated said he is going afk the moment his target is rooted xD Does he even realize when he interrupts something? Most time he spams staff autoattack the whole immob duartion... That was rly not a good video to prove your point. I haven't seen a single good shatter combo from him with staff, immob on target or not.

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text kitten).

Interrupting skills is one of the most skilful things you can do in this game, rewarding the proper timing of limited CC in that way is not unhealthy. The original devs knew this and it's why CI interrupt was always a playable but never strong build. Remember cleansing back then far outstripped condition application so removing the immob was quite easy and there were trade offs because to go so deep into chaos meant either no IP or no damage/anything else tbh.

What isn't healthy is having 20+ CC skills being cycled every 40s. Which is what people have started complaining about recently, the amount of CC around.

Yes the interrupt mechanic itself is skillful but as always it depends on how interrupt rewards are designed and as said old CI was like making Warrior hammer skills instant and range, that would be broken as hell no matter what cds the skills have, when landing one of two of them on a random autoattack is already enough to turn the fight in your favor with zero counterplay. That is what old CI was since game release, it never was healthy or not broken. That is rly simple balance logic, instant range lock down cc should not exist. If you want to play skillful interrupt Mesmer you have to do it without Chaosline in the first place but for sure without old CI and that since game release. That Powermes was still not rly played with it in conquest had other reasons (it still was hardcountered by Thief for example). In duels and WvW it always was a strong, easy to play and broken option.

That's your opinion but you're factually wrong while being inaccurate to boot.It was an immobilise which could be cleansed and everyone had a plethora of cleanses back then and many of them could stunbreak to boot.It was only ranged and instant with mantra of distraction, which had a 20s recharge, almost 3s cast and 5s between activation. Everything else on the interrupt build had a cast or travel time at range.You say it yourself and even worded it perfectly "That is rly simple balance logic,
instant range lock down cc
should not exist." your problem was the instant ranged CC which is never guaranteed to proc CI. You should try figuring this out if it's not a problem with all the other CC skills but only with 1.

Further evidence that it wasn't broken comes from it never having been picked in any meta build pre PoF even when they used chaos trait line, even when only using 2 stealth abilities it was always better to take 3s extra stealth and some random boons over CI because it was easily nullified by "just cleanse" and stab was on so many builds making interrupts hard to get.Edit: Forgot to add, you don't counter interrupt builds with auto attacks. If people proc interrupt traits off your autos you're playing wrong.This was actually the same problem with PI, the problem with PI was largely not the damage, it was that thief always had CC ready to proc it thanks to headshot being so fast, ranged and such a low cost vs value for the thief. Oh look history repeated itself when mesmer had enough CC to match their rate of CC.Finally we have this classic where the top shatter mesmer fought the top CI mesmer, something Rylock has even said he hates how this video starts talking about the results of this clash of build. Face it, CI was never broken.

As said Mantra always was instant and it doesn't matter how much cd it has when hitting one or to random interupts on autoattacks with an insatnt range interrupt tool is enough to win the fight. The interrupt reward always was too strong, broken enough to reward a simple lucky random autoattack interrupt with a win. When hitting autoattacks is enough to win a fight then there is zero counterplay to it, except of just not fighing it and running away. When you want skillful reactive and with that balanced interrupt playstyle that needs to hit specific keyskills to be rewarding enough, then you need an instant interrupt tool like Mantra otherwise you cannot interrupt fast-cast keyskills on purpose without having godlike reflexes and NASA connection. Means all interrupt traits needs to be balanced around an instant interupt tool. That was not given for old CI. Only when interrupting needs to hit keyskills to be a real danger, means the opponent can cover those keyskills and bait interrupt skills by stowing etc. means can coutner to be itnerupted on keyskills in different way instead need to hide every simple autoattack (what means not attacking at all and just leaving) then MoD has coutnerplay, otherwise not.Daze+immob is also more than a simple lock down stun because it needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to be countered. So even when not instant and ranged it would still be very problematic. Immob on interrupt is just a bad consept in general.But we can agree to disagree here.

Did Rylock duel Helseth mirror shatter after that to prove how he then would win easy? Sry but Rylock lost a MU he was heavily favored (because in particular Powermes got countered hard by old CI if not countered with an stealth heavy build to not be easy interupted on every well telepraphed skill and telepraphed autoattack when oneshotting out of stealth). Rylock without Chaoline carry would have been an even easier kill for Helseth.

I'm ignoring the first part for both our sake and just say I disagree with your premise as outlined previously.

As far as I know Helseth played his normal power shatter which likely was exactly as you see in the video, though wouldn't use moa and essentially have no elite. Helseth at that point and I believe even now duels on the build he will use in team play because there's no point for him to learn to counter something if he'd normally not play it or it has components that would make him weaker to his team in 5v5. Why did Helseth win? He knew how to fight interrupt builds by covering your casts and not to spam skills, other classes would use stab and cleanses to reduce CI effectiveness. Rylock lost because it was a weaker build and had real trade offs for taking CI, something condi mirage didn't have because ambush skills gave so much extra damage baseline.

We disagree here. Ci Chaos was insanely favored over standard power shatter in duels, Rylock lost because he got outskilled hard by Helseth, that is what i think. And if you cannot come up with mirrror build duels of these players then showing clearly more wins on Rylocks side then we will never know who is right i guess. I barely remember Rylock, he doesn't play since ages if i am not mistaken but when i remember him right i would even more bet on the outskilled not out-build part.I agree that Condimirage had other stuff in addtion made it even more oppressive (passive clone dmg from ambushes).

It's hard to find any duels of CI mesmer back then which aren't montaged and I can't find any from Rylock specifically however he was well known in the Official Mesmer Forum Guild [kitten] for being the best interrupt mesmer in core. Don't get me wrong it wasn't a bad build it's just shatter was better and it had it's weaknesses, with very obvious counters if the CI build couldn't remove stab which required 20 in dom or arcane thievery which was buggy af.

I know this guy kept playing lockdown but wasn't as good as Rylock, this is from just before HoT and I honestly cannot see him getting value out of CI over buffing mind wrack and deleting people with GS:

From Rylock in 2014: "I kinda want to see lockdown beat this meta we are in and have a strong seat in everywhere but zerging (too much stability there). It needs a couple of small buffs and it should be great (like removing the cripple on CI please <3) " CI was only changed once after that in the specialisation update to have 5 might.

He doesn't get anything out of it because he plays staff (power i guess, hard to say he plays so inefficient i have a hard to time to see that) and barely makes good plays when he hits an interrupt and the immob. Exaggerated said he is going afk the moment his target is rooted xD Does he even realize when he interrupts something? Most time he spams staff autoattack the whole immob duartion... That was rly not a good video to prove your point. I haven't seen a single good shatter combo from him with staff, immob on target or not.

I wasn't trying to prove my point, the only other videos I could find were heavy montage videos of Holts fighting a triple signet hammer guard in a 1v1 which wasn't a hard match up at the time (was just after hambow was nerfed) and everyone played power back then, that was the CI build.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text kitten).

Interrupting skills is one of the most skilful things you can do in this game, rewarding the proper timing of limited CC in that way is not unhealthy. The original devs knew this and it's why CI interrupt was always a playable but never strong build. Remember cleansing back then far outstripped condition application so removing the immob was quite easy and there were trade offs because to go so deep into chaos meant either no IP or no damage/anything else tbh.

What isn't healthy is having 20+ CC skills being cycled every 40s. Which is what people have started complaining about recently, the amount of CC around.

Yes the interrupt mechanic itself is skillful but as always it depends on how interrupt rewards are designed and as said old CI was like making Warrior hammer skills instant and range, that would be broken as hell no matter what cds the skills have, when landing one of two of them on a random autoattack is already enough to turn the fight in your favor with zero counterplay. That is what old CI was since game release, it never was healthy or not broken. That is rly simple balance logic, instant range lock down cc should not exist. If you want to play skillful interrupt Mesmer you have to do it without Chaosline in the first place but for sure without old CI and that since game release. That Powermes was still not rly played with it in conquest had other reasons (it still was hardcountered by Thief for example). In duels and WvW it always was a strong, easy to play and broken option.

That's your opinion but you're factually wrong while being inaccurate to boot.It was an immobilise which could be cleansed and everyone had a plethora of cleanses back then and many of them could stunbreak to boot.It was only ranged and instant with mantra of distraction, which had a 20s recharge, almost 3s cast and 5s between activation. Everything else on the interrupt build had a cast or travel time at range.You say it yourself and even worded it perfectly "That is rly simple balance logic,
instant range lock down cc
should not exist." your problem was the instant ranged CC which is never guaranteed to proc CI. You should try figuring this out if it's not a problem with all the other CC skills but only with 1.

Further evidence that it wasn't broken comes from it never having been picked in any meta build pre PoF even when they used chaos trait line, even when only using 2 stealth abilities it was always better to take 3s extra stealth and some random boons over CI because it was easily nullified by "just cleanse" and stab was on so many builds making interrupts hard to get.Edit: Forgot to add, you don't counter interrupt builds with auto attacks. If people proc interrupt traits off your autos you're playing wrong.This was actually the same problem with PI, the problem with PI was largely not the damage, it was that thief always had CC ready to proc it thanks to headshot being so fast, ranged and such a low cost vs value for the thief. Oh look history repeated itself when mesmer had enough CC to match their rate of CC.Finally we have this classic where the top shatter mesmer fought the top CI mesmer, something Rylock has even said he hates how this video starts talking about the results of this clash of build. Face it, CI was never broken.

As said Mantra always was instant and it doesn't matter how much cd it has when hitting one or to random interupts on autoattacks with an insatnt range interrupt tool is enough to win the fight. The interrupt reward always was too strong, broken enough to reward a simple lucky random autoattack interrupt with a win. When hitting autoattacks is enough to win a fight then there is zero counterplay to it, except of just not fighing it and running away. When you want skillful reactive and with that balanced interrupt playstyle that needs to hit specific keyskills to be rewarding enough, then you need an instant interrupt tool like Mantra otherwise you cannot interrupt fast-cast keyskills on purpose without having godlike reflexes and NASA connection. Means all interrupt traits needs to be balanced around an instant interupt tool. That was not given for old CI. Only when interrupting needs to hit keyskills to be a real danger, means the opponent can cover those keyskills and bait interrupt skills by stowing etc. means can coutner to be itnerupted on keyskills in different way instead need to hide every simple autoattack (what means not attacking at all and just leaving) then MoD has coutnerplay, otherwise not.Daze+immob is also more than a simple lock down stun because it needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to be countered. So even when not instant and ranged it would still be very problematic. Immob on interrupt is just a bad consept in general.But we can agree to disagree here.

Did Rylock duel Helseth mirror shatter after that to prove how he then would win easy? Sry but Rylock lost a MU he was heavily favored (because in particular Powermes got countered hard by old CI if not countered with an stealth heavy build to not be easy interupted on every well telepraphed skill and telepraphed autoattack when oneshotting out of stealth). Rylock without Chaoline carry would have been an even easier kill for Helseth.

I'm ignoring the first part for both our sake and just say I disagree with your premise as outlined previously.

As far as I know Helseth played his normal power shatter which likely was exactly as you see in the video, though wouldn't use moa and essentially have no elite. Helseth at that point and I believe even now duels on the build he will use in team play because there's no point for him to learn to counter something if he'd normally not play it or it has components that would make him weaker to his team in 5v5. Why did Helseth win? He knew how to fight interrupt builds by covering your casts and not to spam skills, other classes would use stab and cleanses to reduce CI effectiveness. Rylock lost because it was a weaker build and had real trade offs for taking CI, something condi mirage didn't have because ambush skills gave so much extra damage baseline.

We disagree here. Ci Chaos was insanely favored over standard power shatter in duels, Rylock lost because he got outskilled hard by Helseth, that is what i think. And if you cannot come up with mirrror build duels of these players then showing clearly more wins on Rylocks side then we will never know who is right i guess. I barely remember Rylock, he doesn't play since ages if i am not mistaken but when i remember him right i would even more bet on the outskilled not out-build part.I agree that Condimirage had other stuff in addtion made it even more oppressive (passive clone dmg from ambushes).

It's hard to find any duels of CI mesmer back then which aren't montaged and I can't find any from Rylock specifically however he was well known in the Official Mesmer Forum Guild [kitten] for being the best interrupt mesmer in core. Don't get me wrong it wasn't a bad build it's just shatter was better and it had it's weaknesses, with very obvious counters if the CI build couldn't remove stab which required 20 in dom or arcane thievery which was buggy af.

I know this guy kept playing lockdown but wasn't as good as Rylock, this is from just before HoT and I honestly cannot see him getting value out of CI over buffing mind wrack and deleting people with GS:

From Rylock in 2014: "I kinda want to see lockdown beat this meta we are in and have a strong seat in everywhere but zerging (too much stability there). It needs a couple of small buffs and it should be great (like removing the cripple on CI please <3) " CI was only changed once after that in the specialisation update to have 5 might.

He doesn't get anything out of it because he plays staff (power i guess, hard to say he plays so inefficient i have a hard to time to see that) and barely makes good plays when he hits an interrupt and the immob. Exaggerated said he is going afk the moment his target is rooted xD Does he even realize when he interrupts something? Most time he spams staff autoattack the whole immob duartion... That was rly not a good video to prove your point. I haven't seen a single good shatter combo from him with staff, immob on target or not.

I wasn't trying to prove my point, the only other videos I could find were heavy montage videos of Holts fighting a triple signet hammer guard in a 1v1 which wasn't a hard match up at the time (was just after hambow was nerfed) and everyone played power back then, that was the CI build.

Kind of sad there is no footage from the Helseth - Rylock duels

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Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Kickpuncher.8109" said:Play your game ANET PVP Balance team.

CMC said he rarely plays PvE in Teapot stream

CMC likely plays the game more , and is a better player than most of the people that are saying Anet know nothing. I feel there is a lot of "Anet doesn't play the game because the game isn't the way I want" that happens on these forums.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

Posted
Posted

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Kickpuncher.8109" said:Play your game ANET PVP Balance team.

CMC said he rarely plays PvE in Teapot stream

CMC likely plays the game more , and is a better player than most of the people that are saying Anet know nothing. I feel there is a lot of "Anet doesn't play the game because the game isn't the way I want" that happens on these forums.

its understandable, most developers are devoid of understanding how the game ACTUALLY works, and since they have ultimate power to change things they can force square into a circle. I have played so mane game where clueless developers tried to brute force their creation to fit their ideas, when in reality the thing they created had no hope of doing the role developer created for them.

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Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

Posted
Posted

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Kickpuncher.8109" said:Play your game ANET PVP Balance team.

CMC said he rarely plays PvE in Teapot stream

CMC likely plays the game more , and is a better player than most of the people that are saying Anet know nothing. I feel there is a lot of "Anet doesn't play the game because the game isn't the way I want" that happens on these forums.

its understandable, most developers are devoid of understanding how the game ACTUALLY works, and since they have ultimate power to change things they can force square into a circle. I have played so mane game where clueless developers tried to brute force their creation to fit their ideas, when in reality the thing they created had no hope of doing the role developer created for them.

None of that stop people from coming off as or beijg uninformed and whinny when you look at the actual situation going on. so much is down to " the game isn't the way I personally want it so it's bad. Do better a.k.a change the game to fit me".

The assertion made in the OP is fundamentally and factually incorrect.

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

Posted
Posted

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Kickpuncher.8109" said:Play your game ANET PVP Balance team.

CMC said he rarely plays PvE in Teapot stream

CMC likely plays the game more , and is a better player than most of the people that are saying Anet know nothing. I feel there is a lot of "Anet doesn't play the game because the game isn't the way I want" that happens on these forums.

its understandable, most developers are devoid of understanding how the game ACTUALLY works, and since they have ultimate power to change things they can force square into a circle. I have played so mane game where clueless developers tried to brute force their creation to fit their ideas, when in reality the thing they created had no hope of doing the role developer created for them.

None of that stop people from coming off as or beijg uninformed and whinny when you look at the actual situation going on. so much is down to " the game isn't the way I personally want it so it's bad. Do better a.k.a change the game to fit me".

The assertion made in the OP is fundamentally and factually incorrect.

depends? do you see anet devs actually play? i know cmc plays but the only time I saw him was when he was on full signet warrior. So I cant take that for anything other then trolling.Its kinda like the saying goes, you made the bed. Now sleep in it? other then we are the ones sleeping in it.I personally cant speak for others but im not playing the game anymore. its not becouse the changes are bad. its becouse I have NO HOPE that the changes will ever be good, I went full circle. Its the same reason I quit NVO. Random changes that fix nothing. Never kept promises. Lies. And changes made that just do nothing but piss people off. And people in charge are too full of pride to go back on mistakes they make so they just double down and keep on going.But its fine, they need my money more then I need their game, I have plenty others. Ill still visit the forum similar to how I still visit NVO forums, mb I will be proven wrong eh?

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