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ANET balance team should be required to play each class for a day for 2 weeks in pvp.

Kickpuncher.8109

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@"Ghostof Luzifer.6159" thinks that as long as at least 1 person can make mirage work its "viable"Following that logic I could play chess against you and win with half the pieces missing.Can I win? yes, I played for years and if you didnt I could still pull out the win.Is playing with half the piece viable? fuck no.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

^Seems they backpedaled a fair bit from here after the @bravan.3876 exchange. ^^

Luzifer, please provide evidence of you or anyone playing any sort of Mirage successfully at a consistent competitive level, apart from one or two top players in the game who would undoubtedly do well playing almost any build. Feel free to list the many current top ranked Mirage players you mentioned.

Short of that, any assertion that Mirage is perfectly fine and "qq'ers" just need to gitgud, is but unsubstantiated opinion.

How so:> @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim.
What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls).

I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked).
Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game
I am out.

I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.only gs 5 got reduced.

While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

Did you even read what i wrote? Fyi I AGREE condi mirage is cancer. i would like power mirage to be good. However I only said mirage is still viable in both gamemodes. that is true. Nothing about the rest. I responded to the comment: "the current mesmer got removed from the game". That isnt ttrue. Thats all I said. You keep missing the point. Its astonishing tbh.

Being playable by very few ppl on higher PvP lvl when even these few could just switch to any other class for the same result with even less effort and mostly even less skill requirement by having more impact on a match is not viability. Calling out how numerious Condimirage active defense tools are while every other class outdodges and outsustain even Condimirage stacking every toxic and noobcarry trait/skill (incl toxic and unhealthy, low skill ceiling/ floor retargeting kitten) they can find is not true either. Other playstyles like skillful power (not talking about useless/ impactless but noobcarry semibunker a la Vallun) meanwhile are butchered. So no you are wrong. Also saying just wait for nerfs to other classes is wrong, because as explained, it doesn't matter for the analysis of how bad the one dodge change is that there is one semi playable (what is not viable, it is just semi playable) build, that needs to stack all toxic and noobcarry kitten it can find.At least you agree to everyhting else i said xD Better than nothing i guess.

viability=ability to work successfully. Since there are players who can make it work, it is viable --> the frame for success is there + 2v2 isnt the measure for balance + there are classes that are overperforming, that doesnt say anything about the power level of mirage, because other classes struggle with these classes the same way. Mirage might be not meta, not the optimal pick, not the easiest class to succeed with. That however doesnt mean it isnt viable. It certainly is still a strong pick for both unranked 5v5 and 2v2.

I had to explain the same thing over and over..

Mostly your tone. Your earlier post was very absolutist, while the later one has a number of qualifiers.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

^Seems they backpedaled a fair bit from here after the @bravan.3876 exchange. ^^

Not sure what you mean here tbh. What exchange from me? Who backpedals from what towards what?

See above. Exchange = the discussion you had with them here.

I see, scrolling up helped (i didn't remember in had this discussion in this thread) xD

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Arheundel.6451

Arheundel.6451

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@bravan.3876 said:

@"Kickpuncher.8109" said:Logically you should be well versed in the subject matter you are trying to manipulate if you wish to be successful.

Wish I was getting paid to sit on my thumb and twist. ANET PVP balance team hire me! Seems like an ez fookin job, 'cause you do nothing.

I was expecting top teams running 5 ranger with double bird.... accordingly to the forum and the "devs" listening to it, ranger is the uber OP class with pets one shotting anything with 1 hit, any outsider would read the forum and would think that a ranger or a lightning rod ele are the most OP specs ever created...
then Top teams running with double rev during tournament
...not a single ranger...not a single lightning rod...yeah the devs should play their own game instead than paying attention to the forum banter

You ppl somehow cannot distinguish between opness and brokenness on one side and usefulness for conquest roles on the other side. Best example might be Condirev. It is still kind of broken it is way to rewarding to play in terms of easy offensive play by braindead skillspam being rewarded and defensive play by being way too tanky for the dmg it can pull out easy. In 2v2 top dog. In conquest? Not that much because the lack of mobility and other stuff (like 4-5 ppl can focus him here not only 2 on small maps he can just cover with his condi spam). Doesn't Condirev need nerfs still, also when not rly that useful in conquest? Ofc in terms of getting a balance state where stuff has a good risk-reward relation and is not braindead playable it still needs nerfs. If you start to buff mechanics which are useless in conquest to make them useful in conquest by simple being utterly op and broken you will not get a good PvP balance ever. Some stuff simply will not be the best for any role in conquest by simpel mechanics. You either change the mechanic or you play other builds (like Powerrev instead Condirev in conquest) on that class have more mechanical usefulness for conquest or you play a different class. Compensating a lack of mechanical usefulness in conquest by buffing it into braindead playable and op brokenness to make it conquest meta is not the way.

Ranger is one example of being way to easy to play and having unhealthy and way too low skill ceiling stuff availabe while still not being the most useful for any role in conquest and counterable by coordinated teams. That we didn't see 5 Ranger teams with Birds (a good duel pet choice but too squishy in a 5v5 mode for example) doesn't say anything about how easy or broken something is. It just says how useful for any role in conquest something is. Ranger has good viability in ranked still but 5v5 vs coordinated teams Ranger is simply not the best choice for any role. And one Rev meme team in MATs showed pretty well, how even stacking the most braindead Rev specs doesn't make you win in the end. There is a difference between builds good in carrying low skill vs builds good in carrying a team in conquest mode.

Sadly is: Meta gets what can do both in the end.

Why? Because Gw2 still rewards low risk and low skill way too much. The balance patch philosophy is good but the implementation was not successful until now. In some cases it even killed skill ceiling (Soubeast pet swap deletion, Mirage one dodge) and made skillful builds even worse for the sake of nerfing some op stuff without even solving the balance issues by its roots (Obsidian Flash change killing FA even more, while bunkerish and low skill ceiling Ele builds still overperfrom, one dodge change on Mirage kills skillful power builds and even dumbs down the whole spec) and which could have been nerfed in a way not affecting other builds not op at all. Trade off agenda is still a mess too.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)Where is the second mesmer after him ?

My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

^Seems they backpedaled a fair bit from here after the @bravan.3876 exchange. ^^

Not sure what you mean here tbh. What exchange from me? Who backpedals from what towards what?

The only thing I see is the difference between selfishness and genuine understanding of the word balance. When I talk about balance I talk about equilibrium based on concrete concepts...not abstract self-made ideologies based on personal bias. By any accord we can use the word skill when the gameplay is uniform across the playerbase...not when we have hundreds of options available, I mean you should talk about skill only when players have access to the same set of skills and base stats.....basically not in a MMO.

An example of your flawed argument and your strong hatred for rangers and eles , pre-patch situation : A ) ranger with sic'em approaches mesmer, the ranger try to look for an opening to burst the mesmer...but there is no opening, multiple stealth options with torch/decoy/mass invisibility/passive stealth....you try your best and bait all stealths but one, then proceed to use sic'em.....still can't win...mesmer uses blur...or distortion...or blink away and when all of that is done...mesmer dodges and applies reflection to himself..your 35s CD utility wasted....time to run away maybe..no can't do..illusionary leap/blink or jaunt if mass invisibility wasn't used..no way to escape.

Ofc in all this, the ranger is a noob/scrub whatever and the mesmer is a pro player, ezport champion, chosen of the gods etc etc etc etc

B ) Before sword expansion ele approaches the mesmer....more sustain than ranger and so what?...the mesmer simply keeps his distance easily, the ele can get close and then?...decoy/blink/phase retreat and safe...meanwhile the clones/phantasm safely consume all defensive options from ele before the inevitable burst.

Again the ele here is a noob, bronze/silver scrub and the mesmer is the champion ezport.....ofc even more the ele will be a noob/scrub if he uses sword and now become an actual threat to the mesmer with the short CD teleport and dodges /evades to level the field

In both examples, the mesmer display a plethora of "get out of jail free", engage and disengage options compared to both ele and ranger that you consider noob easy to play.

Now pay attention please, you want to use hard logic in a MMO and by all means let's do it! If you talk about skilled balance then every engage option between any two classes should have a 50/50 chance to end in either favor with victory decided by split second decisions....but that's not the case here, both ranger and ele lack the tools to get past the defenses of the mesmer which can play the long game at its leisure.

In a skilled balance scenario : the mesmer would have no access to reflect on dodge/healing skill use etc etc, skills like phase retreat would have a far bigger CD and some other things I don't want to list here...meanwhile the ranger would have more access to unblockables and more aoe to get past the clone wall....with ele, we would have a shorter CD gap closers and more dmg on its aoe skill to again get past the clone wall. This is what balance=equilibrium means...nothing to do with what you think is right

Mesmer playerbase should try to be more reasonable......this is not 2012, we can all bloody see who is the real mesmer..we just can't get past through the sheer amount of defenses the class has...oh pardon me..."had".

Now go on mesmers! Tell me how much of a noob/scrub I am and how easily other classes could kill mesmers pre-patch...I expect nothing less from you lot

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@Arheundel.6451do your h0mework before you post, calculate evade/dodges/blocks/invulnerabilities of mirage and warrior, then come back here in SHAME and apologise.and I dont mean some random bullshit 3x def traitlines 4x stealth utilities, count me the dodges etc of meta builds, we will wait for YOU to back up your claim.And to make it even better, feel free to do the calculations for mirage BEFORE the nerfs, im looking forward for you to proof all the barking you are doing.

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Arheundel.6451

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Arheundel.6451do your h0mework before you post, calculate evade/dodges/blocks/invulnerabilities of mirage and warrior, then come back here in SHAME and apologise.and I dont mean some random kitten 3x def traitlines 4x stealth utilities, count me the dodges etc of meta builds, we will wait for YOU to back up your claim.And to make it even better, feel free to do the calculations for mirage BEFORE the nerfs, im looking forward for you to proof all the barking you are doing.

Sorry sunshine..I will never apologize here...we're all playing the same casual MMO, you're not better than me and I am not better than you , it's all buildwars with min common sense applied. All I see here barking are the mesmers wishing to go back to pre-patch status....and I have precisely described how fights with mesmers used to go.

P.SAre you for real? The condi mirage meta had : torch/decoy/staff/jaunt and reflect on evasion......those have been the standards of 80% of roaming mesmer builds for years before the patch...I did enough homework

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Leonidrex.5649

Leonidrex.5649

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Arheundel.6451do your h0mework before you post, calculate evade/dodges/blocks/invulnerabilities of mirage and warrior, then come back here in SHAME and apologise.and I dont mean some random kitten 3x def traitlines 4x stealth utilities, count me the dodges etc of meta builds, we will wait for YOU to back up your claim.And to make it even better, feel free to do the calculations for mirage BEFORE the nerfs, im looking forward for you to proof all the barking you are doing.

Sorry sunshine..I will never apologize here...we're all playing the same casual MMO, you're not better than me and I am not better than you , it's all
buildwars
with min common sense applied. All I see here barking are the mesmers wishing to go back to pre-patch status....and I have precisely described how fights with mesmers used to go.

P.SAre you for real? The condi mirage meta had : torch/decoy/staff/jaunt and reflect on evasion......those have been the standards of 80% of roaming mesmer builds for years before the patch...I did enough homework

I dont see any calculation to back up your claims, only salty insults

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Arheundel.6451

Arheundel.6451

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Arheundel.6451do your h0mework before you post, calculate evade/dodges/blocks/invulnerabilities of mirage and warrior, then come back here in SHAME and apologise.and I dont mean some random kitten 3x def traitlines 4x stealth utilities, count me the dodges etc of meta builds, we will wait for YOU to back up your claim.And to make it even better, feel free to do the calculations for mirage BEFORE the nerfs, im looking forward for you to proof all the barking you are doing.

Sorry sunshine..I will never apologize here...we're all playing the same casual MMO, you're not better than me and I am not better than you , it's all
buildwars
with min common sense applied. All I see here barking are the mesmers wishing to go back to pre-patch status....and I have precisely described how fights with mesmers used to go.

P.SAre you for real? The condi mirage meta had : torch/decoy/staff/jaunt and reflect on evasion......those have been the standards of 80% of roaming mesmer builds for years before the patch...I did enough homework

I dont see any calculation to back up your claims, only salty insults

Which insults? Point them out!Either way...dealing with the mesmer police or any other class forum "security" service is tiring and mostly a waste of time..so I tap out from here

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Ghostof Luzifer.6159

Ghostof Luzifer.6159

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Ghostof Luzifer.6159" thinks that as long as at least 1 person can make mirage work its "viable"Following that logic I could play chess against you and win with half the pieces missing.Can I win? yes, I played for years and if you didnt I could still pull out the win.Is playing with half the piece viable? kitten no.

watch the last mat just from memory i can name three teams from memeory that had a mirage. Both finalits teams had a mirage.Here the finals: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/577610131?t=03h26m34sAuthority argument inc, here sinds take on mesmer: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/578319924?t=01h54m01sto think mirage isnt viable is just delusional. It is hard to pull off that doesnt mean the potential isnt there. Viability isnt defined by how easy something is to play rather by the potential to lead to success.

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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@Arheundel.6451 said:tddr just skipped through it

I am not a Ranger hater ppl even called me Ranger main when i argued against the deletion of the pet swap on Soulbeast or Ele main when i argued about the stupid change to Obsidian. I am not the biased one here. I am multiclass player and not biased towards any class at all. But i am not willing to waste any more time doing another wall of text with details and arguments based on facts, knowledge and logic to fight meaningless claims. In the end you cannot fight narrowness with logic, so i stop trying here. Think what you want to think, i don't care.

@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 thinks that as long as at least 1 person can make mirage work its "viable"Following that logic I could play chess against you and win with half the pieces missing.Can I win? yes, I played for years and if you didnt I could still pull out the win.Is playing with half the piece viable? kitten no.

watch the last mat just from memory i can name three teams from memeory that had a mirage. Both finalits teams had a mirage.Here the finals:
Authority argument inc, here sinds take on mesmer:
to think mirage isnt viable is just delusional. It is hard to pull off that doesnt mean the potential isnt there. Viability isnt defined by how easy something is to play rather by the potential to lead to success.

If you talk about last Mat from yesterday it were 3 Mirages out of the last 8 teams and 2 of them only switched to Mirage when faceing Misha to counter portal. They played Ranger/ Rev otherwise.

@bravan.3876 said:I think it got quite clear when watching at the few Mirages (only 3 if i didn't forget anyone) in the last 8 teams, 2 of the 3 only switched to Mirage when facing Mishas team (playing Rev or Ranger otherwise) to counter portal, not to counter Misha and his build aside from portal (what still failed because Flandre sucks in general and even more compared to Misha, just like Mes Ritu is way worse than Misha too). Often they needed to waste their portal for simple self sustain what turns it into a skill with way too long cd and way too short duration for a simple self sustain skill. Decoy/ SoM would do a better job for that. 2 out of 3 Mirages were either dead very often or trying to survive with high costs by having low impact in fights/ on the match (from the high need to focus on staying safe and alive) aside from some very few portal plays for their team.

And Misha didn't share the same fate not because he is also much better than the 2 other Mirages we saw, but mostly because he was in the dominating team and protected by the best Thief and Rev killing every threat to Misha before they could even start to organize a focus on him. With that Misha could focus on good portal plays what also was his biggest value for the matches. And that even with Condimirage. A Powermirage was not seen anywhere. One tried a bunker build, also only value with portal and failed still.

Means in the end the argument stays, that having one Condimirage and one Powermirage can make it work to some extent in ranked is not a prove of viability from the spec. Powermirage was not seen in mATs at all and Condimirage worked for one player not being perma dead or utterly useless aside from some portal plays and that only because of being in the overall stronger team didn't give any possibility to the opponents team to coordinate focused teamplay make Misha perma respawning too. He has pretty good teammates who know how to peel for him when Thieves or Revs ever get the opportunity at all to chase his soul. Good players can peel for him and protect him from everything that would normally easy hardcounter and neutralize every Mesmer no matter how good he plays. In the end it was not only Misha, it was the whole team needed to make even Condimirage work and the biggest value was portal not the build itself. And 2 out of 3 Mirages only switched to Mirage from much stronger classes to counter portal only.

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Leonidrex.5649

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@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 thinks that as long as at least 1 person can make mirage work its "viable"Following that logic I could play chess against you and win with half the pieces missing.Can I win? yes, I played for years and if you didnt I could still pull out the win.Is playing with half the piece viable? kitten no.

watch the last mat just from memory i can name three teams from memeory that had a mirage. Both finalits teams had a mirage.Here the finals:
Authority argument inc, here sinds take on mesmer:
to think mirage isnt viable is just delusional. It is hard to pull off that doesnt mean the potential isnt there. Viability isnt defined by how easy something is to play rather by the potential to lead to success.

are we talking about the mat where misha died on spawn to thief 1v1 in 10s?

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Arheundel.6451

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@"bravan.3876" said: -snip-

Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"bravan.3876" said: -snip-

Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

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Ghostof Luzifer.6159

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:tddr just skipped through it

I am not a Ranger hater ppl even called me Ranger main when i argued against the deletion of the pet swap on Soulbeast or Ele main when i argued about the stupid change to Obsidian. I am not the biased one here. I am multiclass player and not biased towards any class at all. But i am not willing to waste any more time doing another wall of text with details and arguments based on facts, knowledge and logic to fight meaningless claims. In the end you cannot fight narrowness with logic, so i stop trying here. Think what you want to think, i don't care.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 thinks that as long as at least 1 person can make mirage work its "viable"Following that logic I could play chess against you and win with half the pieces missing.Can I win? yes, I played for years and if you didnt I could still pull out the win.Is playing with half the piece viable? kitten no.

watch the last mat just from memory i can name three teams from memeory that had a mirage. Both finalits teams had a mirage.Here the finals:
Authority argument inc, here sinds take on mesmer:
to think mirage isnt viable is just delusional. It is hard to pull off that doesnt mean the potential isnt there. Viability isnt defined by how easy something is to play rather by the potential to lead to success.

If you talk about last Mat from yesterday it were 3 Mirages out of the last 8 teams and 2 of them only switched to Mirage when faceing Misha to counter portal. They played Ranger/ Rev otherwise.

@bravan.3876 said:I think it got quite clear when watching at the few Mirages (only 3 if i didn't forget anyone) in the last 8 teams, 2 of the 3 only switched to Mirage when facing Mishas team (playing Rev or Ranger otherwise) to counter portal, not to counter Misha and his build aside from portal (what still failed because Flandre sucks in general and even more compared to Misha, just like Mes Ritu is way worse than Misha too). Often they needed to waste their portal for simple self sustain what turns it into a skill with way too long cd and way too short duration for a simple self sustain skill. Decoy/ SoM would do a better job for that. 2 out of 3 Mirages were either dead very often or trying to survive with high costs by having low impact in fights/ on the match (from the high need to focus on staying safe and alive) aside from some very few portal plays for their team.

And Misha didn't share the same fate not because he is also much better than the 2 other Mirages we saw, but mostly because he was in the dominating team and protected by the best Thief and Rev killing every threat to Misha before they could even start to organize a focus on him. With that Misha could focus on good portal plays what also was his biggest value for the matches. And that even with Condimirage. A Powermirage was not seen anywhere. One tried a bunker build, also only value with portal and failed still.

Means in the end the argument stays, that having one Condimirage and one Powermirage can make it work to some extent in ranked is not a prove of viability from the spec. Powermirage was not seen in mATs at all and Condimirage worked for one player not being perma dead or utterly useless aside from some portal plays and that only because of being in the overall stronger team didn't give any possibility to the opponents team to coordinate focused teamplay make Misha perma respawning too. He has pretty good teammates who know how to peel for him when Thieves or Revs ever get the opportunity at all to chase his soul. Good players can peel for him and protect him from everything that would normally easy hardcounter and neutralize every Mesmer no matter how good he plays. In the end it was not only Misha, it was the whole team needed to make even Condimirage work and the biggest value was portal not the build itself. And 2 out of 3 Mirages only switched to Mirage from much stronger classes to counter portal only.

drazehs team, flandres, facerole and rawr were running mirage at some point in the tournmaent. Even if they only counterspect, mirage therefor had a strong impact on the comps of the tournament. Warrior, ranger for example were less present than mirage. Again viablity is not about optimization it is about being good enough to work.So what if mirage depends on portal. Portal is part of the build right now. Things might be different if portal didnt exist but i have news for you it does exist."Good players can peel for him and protect him from everything that would normally easy hardcounter and neutralize every Mesmer no matter how good he plays. In the end it was not only Misha, it was the whole team needed to make even Condimirage work" Sind just said on stream that the roaming trio of thief, rev and mirage were codepentent on each other. Dont downplay the effectiveness of mirage. He even said that he think that he was the weakest link because thief does to little damge in this tanky meta.
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Arheundel.6451

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....but many mesmer mains were on board with the change , many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

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Burnfall.9573

Burnfall.9573

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i walked in to Pvp and WvW and the only question i asked myself and others is, what between the last balance reset and 8 years of the game release when it comes to balance?

The same question i always would get, Nothing.

The amount of Aoe conditions-fire conditions everywhere burning over 2k tick, +1 shotting, pulls like a yoyo game toy.....large red circle of Aoes on the ground everywhere, blinding lighting effects by skills, perma stealthing....it was astrochis.

There was even a new player in the squad who asked, how long this been happening? We all answered, 'since the beginning'

I come to realization that it is not about Anet should play the game but the game needing a new vision. A new vision is what's needed to not put up with this Toxicity anymore.

Dying over and over every 4 minutes to continual Toxic skills and its repetitive Bad Design mechanics is Toxicity at its best. How does one find this healthy and fun? Where is learning in abusing Bad Design mechanics like stealth?

this new player said something to us in the squad that left some of us discussing it after we left wvw.....'the game is not about being skilled or fun but is about being cool' +1 shotting, stealth, aoe blinding effects, pulling,etc.... is all about feeling cool not about being competitive at all

example; look at +1 shotting in itself and even having mounts +1 shotting.....what competitive game would find that competitive?

that completely blew me away!!

so yeah! i can agree with the new players, Guild Wars 2 is all about 'being the coolest kid in the bock', feeling cool about it. Last words from the new player, 'If you want cool game, this is it!!'

-It's the only game in the market with 8 consecutive years that find +1 shotting, à la carte = all-in-one design and having a stealth mechanic having no counter and being able to stack it mindlessly with having absolutely no restrictions whatsoever....a really good thing'

Astonishing!! isn't it

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apharma.3741

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1004275#Comment_1004275or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/982194#Comment_982194

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

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@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:tddr just skipped through it

I am not a Ranger hater ppl even called me Ranger main when i argued against the deletion of the pet swap on Soulbeast or Ele main when i argued about the stupid change to Obsidian. I am not the biased one here. I am multiclass player and not biased towards any class at all. But i am not willing to waste any more time doing another wall of text with details and arguments based on facts, knowledge and logic to fight meaningless claims. In the end you cannot fight narrowness with logic, so i stop trying here. Think what you want to think, i don't care.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Ghostof Luzifer.6159 thinks that as long as at least 1 person can make mirage work its "viable"Following that logic I could play chess against you and win with half the pieces missing.Can I win? yes, I played for years and if you didnt I could still pull out the win.Is playing with half the piece viable? kitten no.

watch the last mat just from memory i can name three teams from memeory that had a mirage. Both finalits teams had a mirage.Here the finals:
Authority argument inc, here sinds take on mesmer:
to think mirage isnt viable is just delusional. It is hard to pull off that doesnt mean the potential isnt there. Viability isnt defined by how easy something is to play rather by the potential to lead to success.

If you talk about last Mat from yesterday it were 3 Mirages out of the last 8 teams and 2 of them only switched to Mirage when faceing Misha to counter portal. They played Ranger/ Rev otherwise.

@bravan.3876 said:I think it got quite clear when watching at the few Mirages (only 3 if i didn't forget anyone) in the last 8 teams, 2 of the 3 only switched to Mirage when facing Mishas team (playing Rev or Ranger otherwise) to counter portal, not to counter Misha and his build aside from portal (what still failed because Flandre sucks in general and even more compared to Misha, just like Mes Ritu is way worse than Misha too). Often they needed to waste their portal for simple self sustain what turns it into a skill with way too long cd and way too short duration for a simple self sustain skill. Decoy/ SoM would do a better job for that. 2 out of 3 Mirages were either dead very often or trying to survive with high costs by having low impact in fights/ on the match (from the high need to focus on staying safe and alive) aside from some very few portal plays for their team.

And Misha didn't share the same fate not because he is also much better than the 2 other Mirages we saw, but mostly because he was in the dominating team and protected by the best Thief and Rev killing every threat to Misha before they could even start to organize a focus on him. With that Misha could focus on good portal plays what also was his biggest value for the matches. And that even with Condimirage. A Powermirage was not seen anywhere. One tried a bunker build, also only value with portal and failed still.

Means in the end the argument stays, that having one Condimirage and one Powermirage can make it work to some extent in ranked is not a prove of viability from the spec. Powermirage was not seen in mATs at all and Condimirage worked for one player not being perma dead or utterly useless aside from some portal plays and that only because of being in the overall stronger team didn't give any possibility to the opponents team to coordinate focused teamplay make Misha perma respawning too. He has pretty good teammates who know how to peel for him when Thieves or Revs ever get the opportunity at all to chase his soul. Good players can peel for him and protect him from everything that would normally easy hardcounter and neutralize every Mesmer no matter how good he plays. In the end it was not only Misha, it was the whole team needed to make even Condimirage work and the biggest value was portal not the build itself. And 2 out of 3 Mirages only switched to Mirage from much stronger classes to counter portal only.

drazehs team, flandres, facerole and rawr were running mirage at some point in the tournmaent. Even if they only counterspect, mirage therefor had a strong impact on the comps of the tournament. Warrior, ranger for example were less present than mirage. Again viablity is not about optimization it is about being good enough to work.So what if mirage depends on portal. Portal is part of the build right now. Things might be different if portal didnt exist but i have news for you it does exist."Good players can peel for him and protect him from everything that would normally easy hardcounter and neutralize every Mesmer no matter how good he plays. In the end it was not only Misha, it was the whole team needed to make even Condimirage work" Sind just said on stream that the roaming trio of thief, rev and mirage were codepentent on each other. Dont downplay the effectiveness of mirage. He even said that he think that he was the weakest link because thief does to little damge in this tanky meta.

As said they counterspeced to Mirage only vs Mishas team to counter the portal not to counter Mirage.Thief might be the weakest link when it comes to dmg (it has the highest mobility it would be op as hell if it also would have the highest dmg from all roaming builds don't you think?) but it is not the weakest link overall because Theif doesn't need 1-2 protectors secure the soul of the class so that the Mirage does not get hardcountered and completely neutralized by almost everything no matter how good the Mesmer player is. Also Thief viability doesn't rely on just one utility skill. It is as i said, the roaming trio was needed like that, the whole team was needed like that (in terms of teamcomp with at least 1, better 2, Mirage protector and in terms of skill lvl of the player able to peel for the Mirage as well as it happend by simple counterpressure) to make Condimirage able to do some portal plays and not be perma dead instead.That one player in Mats being in the clearly strongest team and protected by Thief and Rev can make Condimirage work as a portal bot doesn't mean it is in a good state. But even more important is, it doesn't even matter that much if Condimirage is semi viable or not. The one dodge change was insanely bad, it dumbed down the whole spec while not solving the mechanical issues Condimirage has. And the change makes every skillful power build just more dead than it was before already. While there are possibilities to solve the issues of Condimirage with nerfs ONLY to Condimirage without overkilling not op and skillful powerbuilds as a spin off and without deleting skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from the whole spec.

Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

Apologize accepted. But i am not a Mesmer main in case you still missed that.

I made a lot of posts about why old CI was an unhealthy and broken trait since game release, means i don't want to do that again. But in short: An instant range lock down cc should not exist. Immob as interrupt reward is also way too strong, that strong that random interrupting autoattacks was enough to secure a kill very often. Interrupt skills need to be designed in a way that they are only rewarding enough when going for specific keyskills. Nothing of that was giving by old CI. It rly is simple balance logic. Old CI was comparable of making Warrior hammer skills instant and ranged and call that good balance.

The main issues from old Condimirage were the condi ambushes and Chaosline (both are still problematic post patch btw, the issue is not solved it is just not relevant anymore because Mirages now don't add enough dmg to spec into Chaos anymore and not enough reward from IH when using sword/ axe, while EM can compensate a little bit for the sustain loss from only one dodge and no Choasline).

I made a lot of detailed wall of text posts, why IH is not the issue, it is even a pretty interesting trait can have a very high active and skillful part, adds a lot of skill ceiling to Mirage, at least when ambushes are designed well. I also explained why EM as a stunbreak on dodge was utterly broken while the MC ability to dodge while still being stunned has coutnerplay, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards good Mirages way more for dodging the cc in the first place. MC is a strong feature but not gamebreaking while old EM with the stunbreak was completely unhealthy and noobcarry. Just a passive mistake cover. If you don't see that i would recommend to check my old comments, they are a bit longer ago and i have not added their links for easy copy paste until now.

Condimirage was an issue because the condi ambushes are bad and passive and op designed. They added that many dmg to the build, that Condimirage could use Chaosline (what is in my opinion the most problematic line of Mesmers right before Inspiration, Chaos is completely passive and low skill ceiling even on the few less passive traits, also it has way to good synergies to Mirage traitline in terms of boonstacking). I rly don't want to go into detail again, but reworking condi ambushes or at least delete a good part of the condi dmg from the clone ambushes directly (not indirectly by nerfing core traits again or by deleting one dodge from Miragespec) is the only right step to solve these issues by its rootes and add skill ceiling to Condimirage while nerfing it to a balanced state.Neither IH nor MC were the issue in the first place made Condimirage broken. For MC i have not explained that often already so i do it for MC again:

The one dodge change is not a trade off, it is just a PvP/ WvW orientated nerf to MC because forum bronze propaganda complained about dodge while stunned is beyond broken, even though it never was what made any Mirage build op and even after 3 years of PoF, plebs still didn't learn how to use Mirages opportunity costs in dodgemanagement to their advantage, how to easy counter and outplay something that can dodge while stunned in a spec environment with that high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and on a spec being squishy that they literally need to avoid autoattacks.

No, that is not correct actually. Bronze propaganda and Devs just lacked in class knowledge and understanding. So they missed, that the correlation was NOT:

MC dodge while stun/ cast while dodge ability -> Mirage op.

It is more like:

passive and too strong condi (clone) ambushes -> barely to no opportunity cost in dodgemanagement for Condimirage only (no need to dodge offensive, able to add passive Chaosline as additional sustain while still having high passive condi dmg)-> MC ability to dodge while stunned/ cast while dodging -> no punishment from cc at all because passive clone dmg still rewarding enough even while Condimirage itself is stunned-> Condimirage op (not because of MC more because of the wrong designed condi ambushes in addition to MC)

But thinking outside of the easy onedimentional bronze propaganda box barely ppl and obviously also Devs can do. MC by itself was not the problem, pre patch nerfs balanced that out already. Mirage got outdodges by most classes even pre patch already.Only Condimirage, because of only Condimirage specific characteristics had a balance issue from MC+passive and too strong clone ambushes. With other words the one dodge nerf cut the mechanic too soon and at the wrong position of the problem chain from Condimirage, leads to unnecessary nerfs of not op power builds, and to the unnecessary high costs in skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity for the whole spec and not only for the one op condi playstyle on Mirage. Reworking condi ambushes would have had the same effect than the one dodge change but with way less costs and trouble for the spec as a whole.

I had a lot to complain about Condimriage myself for certain, but their ability to dodge while stunned or to cast while dodging (second is a gamewide ability, a mechanic you find on every class) never was my problem when fighting vs them. All problems when fighting vs them were only from passive clone dmg and too high sustain from having no need to dodge offensive for dmg or other ambush effects and from broken Chaosline. Condimirage simply never had the inherent costs (opportunity costs in dodgemanagement) a Powermirage has and the only reason for that is the wrong designed too passive and too op condi ambsuhes. Not IH, not MC.

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Arheundel.6451

Arheundel.6451

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

Then I ask myself what game are they playing?....They nerf one spec and the next moment the exact same thing but from another class take its place...we spent months/years to get rid ( barely) of condi mirage only to get camped by condi rev, the only thing they seem to be good at is to destroy whatever soloqers cry the most on the forum, which has little or no weight in the rest of the game or not in the same scenario at least

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Twilight Tempest.7584

Twilight Tempest.7584

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@"Ghostof Luzifer.6159" said:to think mirage isnt viable is just delusional. It is hard to pull off that doesnt mean the potential isnt there. Viability isnt defined by how easy something is to play rather by the potential to lead to success.

You're caught up in semantics. Regardless how you want to define "viable", the most you can do in support of your argument that Mirage is currently viable is point to a single: (1) very niche use (portal play), (2) by a top player (Misha), (3) only made possible by fellow top players in a pro mAT comp, (4) that prompted a couple other non-Mirage mains on opposing team to run Mirage only for counter portal play.

Can you honestly say all these stars align for many other Mirage players? Can you honestly say serving as a portal slave represents viable build diversity for players in the other 99% of Conquest situations? More importantly, imagine applying this same standard to every other class and calling them perfectly viable when only the top player of each one can make it work, in a very unique context. I mean, if you think that only 9 or so people should play this game, why not apply the same viability standard to all professions?

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bravan.3876

bravan.3876

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text crap).

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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Posted

Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

Then I ask myself what game are they playing?....They nerf one spec and the next moment the exact same thing but from another class take its place...we spent months/years to get rid ( barely) of condi mirage only to get camped by condi rev, the only thing they seem to be good at is to destroy whatever soloqers cry the most on the forum, which has little or no weight in the rest of the game or not in the same scenario at least

Condi rev flew under a lot of people's radar especially with the scope of the balance patch they brought out. They did some adjustments to tackle the REALLY obnoxious things like FB but they are still limited to numbers changes.

Some things cannot be fixed (properly) by a numbers change and need skill redesigns like FB tomes and probably a fair bit of what makes condi rev so oppressive without making it terrible. Other times simply put the dev team just hasn't had the time to actually look at and make a proper informed decision on the problem, the ranger changes recently while I don't agree with the changes specifically were refreshing to see. A moderate change based on a proper balanced opinion and looking at what the problems were and the explanation as to why they did what they did was top notch even if I don't specifically agree with their reasoning. This is what the game has been lacking since HoT and why I have more faith in the balance team now than at any time before...except when Grouch was with us because you knew nerfed stuff could get buffed again.

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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Your signature gives all the answers and explanations I may ever need : "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18 , you mocking mesmers gives a clear example of the self-entitlement of the mesmer playerbase, which has always believed a rotation of defensive skills with passive condi application...can be considered "skilled" gameplay

I still wonder how many become pro players over night after the introduction of chrono bunker before and condi mirage after...hmmm...

You rly make me laugh... what you try to use as arguments. Whatever, as said i stop trying here. Narrowness can't be fought with logic.

You get the irony of that signature do you? And no, only bad Mesmer player defended stuff like old CI and Chaosline (what was the biggest issue for Mirage sustain, passive Chaosline and its very good synergy to Mirage traitline). I never did that. I was one of the first calling out old CI trait. I also made enough balance suggestions for Condimirage rly solving the issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them.The guy who made that Rev hate thread from my signature was a joke as a player and a meme itself, he is not a valid example for how most Mesmer mains act.

First of all I want to apologize , you seem a reasonable guy..compared to the rest of mesmer flock , if my reasoning appears to you as narrowness than so be it..I am just sharing my opinion on how a game should be balanced, for me a 50/50 scenario is the epitome of game design...whether that can be actually achieved...I don't think so, the devs themselves can be almost as biased as the players so...

Second of all yeah the fact that most other mesmer main thought that CI was the problem and not IH+staff ambush...brings me to my first point, not even EM was that OP to guarantee the huge nerf....
I have always asked for the removal of IH even before it became popular
, the BS behind it could be already felt.

I was dumbstruck when they nerfed EM instead than IH...EM condi mirage was a real threat but not as frustratingly oppressive as staff IH camper....
but many mesmer mains were on board with the change
, many saying that mirage was now balanced..while secretly jumping on IH the real issue.

I m always ready to give up my "cheese" as long as you give up yours, I won't apologize for my ideals ...I want to put as much effort as you in this game to play comfortably...I don't want to put 3x more effort than you to accomplish anything

OK firstly you're both wrong, CI was a problem because mesmers literally have 3 times more CC in the broken power crept fiasco of PoF (even now too) than any core CI interrupt build ever had and that took far more CC than most classes ever would in core. This meant they would always get CI proc by simply spamming their CC instead of carefully timing CC to interrupt and lock down the enemy for 2s to burst. The addition of expertise didn't help either making 2s immob into 3 which is insane....just as we have all seen on the current druid troll build.

Secondly EM was flat out broken, there is no defending stunbreak on dodge, it should never exist just as Mirage CLoak being useable while stunned. Yes it's not so bad now because 1 dodge meme and currently CC availability is pretty out of whack at the moment meaning you're going to be CC'd to death a lot now, doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic. As for "mesmer mains" saying IH was balanced, it was balanced in that meta at the time, then a few things got nerfed and IH mirage became dominant again.

Now you might argue about the CI point to which I direct you to this comment:
or if you feel like sitting and reading a much longer but more insightful explanation of what the real problems are here's a longer version:

The best part, now everyone truly is complaining about CC spam.

As for the topic itself, they actually do play the game and they do listen to feedback, I know it's hard to grasp but the reality is most of the game devs actually do love playing this game. CMC even competed in competitions because he loved it so much, same with Grouch when we had him and the game was in a much healthier spot when Grouch was communicating and helping to keep PvP fun and as fair as possible, much like what the current PvP team is trying to do.

CI was a broken and unhealthy trait since game release, i explained in very short why in my previous post. Old EM was gamebreaking and broken, MC is not. MC is just a very strong feature but it has coutnerplay in the Mirage environment being suppose to have high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and being squishy by basic class design, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards Mirages for dodging the cc in the first place. MC lowers skill floor just a little bit while EM is completely broken passive mistake cover should have never existed in pre patch state (also see previous post for more wall of text kitten).

Interrupting skills is one of the most skilful things you can do in this game, rewarding the proper timing of limited CC in that way is not unhealthy. The original devs knew this and it's why CI interrupt was always a playable but never strong build. Remember cleansing back then far outstripped condition application so removing the immob was quite easy and there were trade offs because to go so deep into chaos meant either no IP or no damage/anything else tbh.

What isn't healthy is having 20+ CC skills being cycled every 40s. Which is what people have started complaining about recently, the amount of CC around.

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