Finally give Unholy Sanctuary a 300s ICD

[GewRoo.4172]

I had this idea:

All lifesaving passives other than this were nerfed to 300s cd.Why is this any different? It's actually one of the traits that would be ok with 300s cd since it still regenerates health while in shroud.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Endure_Pain#PvPhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Signet_of_Stone#WvW.2CPvPhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Arcane_Shield#WvW.2CPvPhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Instant_Reflexes#WvW.2CPvP

And this is Unholy Sanctuary:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Sanctuary

[Sigmoid.7082]

If it doesn't have a 300s cooldown it means they don't want to functionally remove it before they rework it.

It's also got some fundamental differences to the others.

It could use a higher cooldown for sure but 300s? Nope.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"GewRoo.4172" said:I had this idea:

All lifesaving passives other than this were nerfed to 300s cd.Why is this any different? It's actually one of the traits that would be ok with 300s cd since it still regenerates health while in shroud.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Endure_Pain#PvPhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Signet_of_Stone#WvW.2CPvPhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Arcane_Shield#WvW.2CPvPhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Instant_Reflexes#WvW.2CPvP

And this is Unholy Sanctuary:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Sanctuary

Probably because shroud is more important to the necro remaining alive than those other traits are to those classes remaining alive. Thieves, Rangers, Warriors and Ele all have some pretty decent access to stunbreaks and damage mitigation.Remember, Necro lost https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Foot_in_the_Grave . they cannot break stuns by entering shroud, nor can they break stuns while in shroud. They have to eat that damage if they get cced, and they already have low mobility.

Add to that the fact that LF only gens significantly on deaths and getting hit, and it's fair that that cd would be more forgiving.

[Tayga.3192]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:They have to eat that damage if they get cced

Shroud gives 50% damage reduction.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Tayga.3192 said:Shroud gives 50% damage reduction.

As long as it's up, and it can't be up forever. Damaging shroud is still putting the Necro closer to death.

[Tayga.3192]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:As long as it's up, and it can't be up forever. Damaging shroud is still putting the Necro closer to death.

Obviously, but you are also wasting 50% your damage.

[GewRoo.4172]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:Shroud gives 50% damage reduction.

As long as it's up, and it can't be up forever. Damaging shroud is still putting the Necro closer to death.

No

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:As long as it's up, and it can't be up forever. Damaging shroud is still putting the Necro closer to death.

Obviously, but you are also wasting 50% your damage.

You're fighting another player. Its their aim to make you be as inefficient as possible. Just eat the shroud.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Azure The Heartless.3261"

3 top players (2 dps 1 bruiser) vs 1 necro, takes 30 seconds to kill from 75% health with coordinated bursts. Starts at 0:30

Now imagine in ranked where you can't coordinate this well with 2 other guys.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

30s is for sure too short.

[Dadnir.5038]

Look, after your crusade against Unholy sanctuary I already found another target for you.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dead_or_Alive

Well, all in all, if you were to think about it a bit, forcing the necromancer into shroud before it's 10s CD is done can also be an interesting strategy since by leaving the shroud that he was forced into the necromancer's shroud will be set on CD (You can also expect the necromancer to have less life force to spend on defense when he is forced into shroud by the trait). Something which is not the case for any of the skills attached to the traits that you listed.

Yes, there is a drawback to be saved by unholy sanctuary, interesting isn't it? It's like ranger being forced to take SoS to use the life saving trait and having SoS put on full CD when the trait is triggered.

[Luthan.5236]

Cap the health regeneration in shroud (so after few seconds he will stop gaining health) and make the activation itself cost some life force (so even if he is at full life force he will have lost a bit when the trait activates).

There was also a thread about this when people use moa morph (and it automatically activates): https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99281/shrouded-moa

Funny thing though when you use the moa only shortly after he goes in shroud (he will be moa with normal health bar then) :D

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Tayga.3192 said:@"Azure The Heartless.3261"

3 top players (2 dps 1 bruiser) vs 1 necro, takes 30 seconds to kill from 75% health with coordinated bursts. Starts at 0:30

Now imagine in ranked where you can't coordinate this well with 2 other guys.

That necro had 16-30 stacks of carapace for that engagement, protection, and had to path (abandoning the point) to even live that long.

And nobody took any damage except that necro.

I don't see what the problem is. It's not hard to communicate "If necro is in shroud, cc", especially if they've already used spectral walk/armor.

What would you rather they do, if a slow bleed vs players where you last 30 seconds while built bunker is considered too strong and warrants nerfing?

[GewRoo.4172]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Look, after your crusade against Unholy sanctuary I already found another target for you.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dead_or_Alive

Well, all in all, if you were to think about it a bit, forcing the necromancer into shroud before it's 10s CD is done can also be an interesting strategy since by leaving the shroud that he was forced into the necromancer's shroud will be set on CD (You can also expect the necromancer to have less life force to spend on defense when he is forced into shroud by the trait). Something which is not the case for any of the skills attached to the traits that you listed.

Yes, there is a drawback to be saved by unholy sanctuary, interesting isn't it? It's like ranger being forced to take SoS to use the life saving trait and having SoS put on full CD when the trait is triggered.

Mate what u call "forcing into shroud" or "drawback" is basically getting carried by a trait which allows a player to use a mechanic which already is on cd (lul) that prevents him from dying (lul) while taking fatal blows (lul). There is no strategy behind it it's just what happens when u try to kill a necromancer lmao

[Tayga.3192]

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:That necro had 16-30 stacks of carapace for that engagement, protection, and had to path (abandoning the point) to even live that long.And 75% hp. It evens out.Kiting is not a tradeoff. Obviously you have to leave node if you got +2'd.

And nobody took any damage except that necro.Surprising, right? Same was true for scrapper.

I don't see what the problem is. It's not hard to communicate "If necro is in shroud, cc", especially if they've already used spectral walk/armor.Language barrier :<

What would you rather they do, if a slow bleed vs players where you last 30 seconds while built bunker is considered too strong and warrants nerfing?It's too strong and warrants nerfing considering,1) he isn't even a necro main if he's who I am thinking2) he is against 2 hard counters of his, he got +2'd and lived3) this is literally mAT finals, all of them are good players.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:@Azure The Heartless.3261

3 top players (2 dps 1 bruiser) vs 1 necro, takes 30 seconds to kill from 75% health with coordinated bursts. Starts at 0:30

Now imagine in ranked where you can't coordinate this well with 2 other guys.

That necro had 16-30 stacks of carapace for that engagement, protection, and had to path (abandoning the point) to even live that long.

And nobody took any damage except that necro.

I don't see what the problem is. It's not hard to communicate "If necro is in shroud, cc", especially if they've already used spectral walk/armor.

What would you rather they do, if a slow bleed vs players where you last 30 seconds while built bunker is considered too strong and warrants nerfing?

its not hard to get carapace, any condi cleared gives a ton, and droping down well 1v3 will cap the carapace forever.If the necro was told he is getting boomed 1v3 he could have escaped. In fact Im preety sure he would have lived if he didnt go back on node at 0:45.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:If the necro was told he is getting boomed 1v3 he could have escaped. In fact Im preety sure he would have lived if he didnt go back on node at 0:45.

I only agree with you because of how the map is structured. In any other case with a more traversible map, he would have certainly downed.

its not hard to get carapace, any condi cleared gives a ton, and droping down well 1v3 will cap the carapace forever.

That's my point. Their tankiness scales based on how much they are focused. So why be upset that a necro got a 30 second sustain while being stacked like that?

[Tayga.3192]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:What would you like them to do instead of slowly bleed out?

I don't get what do you mean by slowly bleeding out, do you mean shroud decay? Otherwise I don't know.If you are asking what I would nerf, I would nerf shroud regen by 25-33%.

If you mean what do I want those 3 players to do, they did whatever they can.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:What would you like them to do instead of slowly bleed out?

I don't get what do you mean by slowly bleeding out, do you mean shroud decay? Otherwise I don't know.If you are asking what I would nerf, I would nerf shroud regen by 25-33%.

If you mean what do I want those 3 players to do, they did whatever they can.

What I mean is "If necro built fully bunker dying over 30 seconds, not even on the point" is too long/not satisfactory for you, what would you rather them do instead, role wise? Right now they cannot do anything but endure damage, because their access to stunbreaks and stability, particularly in shroud or upon entering shroud has been outright removed.

Also I may have edited over one of my comments. Mybad.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:What I mean is "If necro built fully bunker dying over 30 seconds, not even on the point" is too long/not satisfactory for you, what would you rather them do instead, role wise? Right now they cannot do anything but endure damage, because their access to stunbreaks and stability, particularly in shroud or upon entering shroud has been outright removed.

I'm fine with giving necro other stuff, just not "dodging is so 2019" type of builds.I'm open to 1v1 builds, teamfight builds, even roamers with a new espec. Of course with buffs/reworks accordingly.

[GewRoo.4172]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:What I mean is "If necro built fully bunker dying over 30 seconds, not even on the point" is too long/not satisfactory for you, what would you rather them do instead, role wise? Right now they cannot do anything but endure damage, because their access to stunbreaks and stability, particularly in shroud or upon entering shroud has been outright removed.

I'm fine with giving necro other stuff, just not "dodging is so 2019" type of builds.I'm open to 1v1 builds, teamfight builds, even roamers with a new espec. Of course with buffs/reworks accordingly.

Everyone is fine with core nec having a viable bunker build but this is just too much. Opener of mAT finals was hilarious.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:What I mean is "If necro built fully bunker dying over 30 seconds, not even on the point" is too long/not satisfactory for you, what would you rather them do instead, role wise? Right now they cannot do anything but endure damage, because their access to stunbreaks and stability, particularly in shroud or upon entering shroud has been outright removed.

I'm fine with giving necro other stuff, just not "dodging is so 2019" type of builds.I'm open to 1v1 builds, teamfight builds, even roamers with a new espec. Of course with buffs/reworks accordingly.

As you say. I'm fine with less passivity, but they need to be able to perform somehow.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"GewRoo.4172" said:Everyone

Not sure about that. Which is why people need to suggest what else needs to change, instead of going "make this 300cd because everything else is 300cd." Doing that without context implies that necro will perform just fine without it/will still be viable, even without substantial changes to how they play otherwise.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Tayga.3192 said:@"Azure The Heartless.3261"

3 top players (2 dps 1 bruiser) vs 1 necro, takes 30 seconds to kill from 75% health with coordinated bursts. Starts at 0:30

Now imagine in ranked where you can't coordinate this well with 2 other guys.

Death magic and US aren't the reason this fight takes a while. In fact US contributes almost nothing to this engagement at all..

[Zephoid.4263]

300s cds are bad for the game in every way. They are a kneejerk reaction to abilities being hard to balance. Balanced the skill on its merit, not on an arbitrary 300s cd.

Unholy sanctuary is NOT the problem though. Eternal Life is. Passive lifeforce generation is a HUGE early game plus. Being able to early pop into shroud with 1/2+ lifeforce is great, and having a near guarenteed 40% lifeforce every time shroud is off cd is huge. The huge protection uptime is silly also. I took rune of the grove in 2v2 for stacking duration protection.