Norn legends for possible future Elite Specs

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Note really quick that I left Eir out because she has recently died; GW3 if it ever happens would be the place Id suspect to see her as a legend. Here Im not so sure it would be wise to make her a legend; When she would end up bringing long bow considering its her iconic weapon. And Kalla already kind of brought that; Plus she while being a legend is not as much so a legend as some other norn heroes with more impressive feats and lore. (Similar to kalla, id be upset like I was when Pyre wasn't chosen. I doubt they will make that mistake again.)

So, I'd like to respond to this idea of GW3 and revenant. If we assume GW3 takes place in Tyria's future, which I personally don't necessarily think it has to, there are some Mechanical changes we can be sure would take place.

1. Revenant wouldn't be the only class that uses energy. Energy would be universal across all professions once again. This I'm pretty certain of as when the dev's talk about mistakes in design, this is a major one for sure.
2. Revenant will have a more refined magic than they do now which would lead a more stable connection with their legends which also allows for more branching out.
3. Revenant would have more available legends. And possibly lose access to some old ones.
4. The Magic of the world might be much weaker than it is currently which could result in revenants losing specific abilities.
5. Armor has a lot of mistakes in its design in GW2 so we'll likely see tanky armor be exclusively heavy while light armor is high energy like in GW1 and I don't think light medium and heavy will be restricted by class so revenant could wear Light armor.

This would all impact the revenant as one aspect of the revenant's design is that it is the blue mage of the game. Sorta. It has some comparisons with Classic Final Fantasy red mage as well. And given this I'd imagined the Revenant would be the Cross class profession and this would be its identity so I could see it mixing strategies of classes like the elementalist and ranger. While those classes offer a more pure experience the revenant would have more options in combat but their opinions will be somewhere weaker. That's my speculation though and it might not be true or work well in practice.

Maybe even channel two legends at once. It would be quite something for a light armor Revenant to channel a Domiation Mesmer like Gwen Thackeray and a fire shaman like Gaheron Baelfire. Burn your opponent's energy and swap to nuke them. Or just steal the energy and swap to Baelfire to nuke them with all your extra energy.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. Its probably a bad idea of mine.

This is of course, if revenant even appears in a hypothetical guild wars 3. I honestly think A-net would get rid of it as it seems they don't much care for the proffession much, so I imagine they would be like the Dervish or ritualist and just not exist as a playable thing and only be something that happened but then "Ceased" to be.

Hard to say. Anet made a lot of mistakes with GW1 and GW2. Some mistakes they made in GW2 they didn't make in gw1. One such mistake is the lack of energy. Another is how some of the professions work such as revenant, Elementalist, necromancer and engineer.

I could see revenant coming back but that's assuming we are in the future for GW3. We could be in the past or even on a different world in the mists entirely. I personally wouldn't mind leaving Tyria but I might be an outlier on that.

It also assumes they wont want to distance themselves from the franchise, and explore new titles.. I honestly doubt GW3 will ever be a thing at this point..

I have the same feelings actually... Unfortunately.

Birds of a feather flock together, sadly it seems you and I are kindred spirits in this. Though I do appreciate your Ideas and the kind of vision you have, I wish that some would share it both within and outside of the game.

Yeah. I am off topic though. I do however think it would be extremely cool if Revenant did end up having a legend for each class. Having weird hybrids between the 8 classes sounds nostalgic to me.

I mean it would be, but Im not sure how to translate the dervish over because of how it was sort of tied around the six and its monk like behavior makes it hard to really bring into the current setting. I also feel like it wouldn't do ritualist very well because of its unique class mechanics, I think necromancer would be better. Paragon exists on the warrior as spellbreaker, and monk is within guardian.

Dervish was sorts an aura warrior which I can think of a few skills that could work quite well. As for the Avatar forms? That's a bit trickier admittedly. I thought of paring them with the legends but that doesn't really fit 1 for 1...

Personally, if I was to bring the Dervish into GW2 I'd use the legendary stance mechanic the Revenant has as the template just change the legends to Avatar stances. Which I think could work quite well. It would be a "clone" class or as smash bros calls it a "echo" but idk. I wouldn't be opposed to that sort of thing if arena net maxes out on elite specs and we continue with gw2 another 10 years

Personally I feel Dervish would be a good spec for warrior, a staff melee warrior who takes both the aura's and the nature of the dervish and say pair it with some of the unused aspects of monk or some such thing? A support warrior who heals through damage both given and sustained by the user, and can maybe take a form of something else (not the Six) but it has the ability to augment itself with the form of perhaps its inner nature? Its magical in terms but its more about ones inner energy, chi and maybe even soul so its about ones self and not pulling from outside of the person using the technique. So I mean it could be comparable to I guess (I hate using naruto as an example.) The Eight gates, where the user augments themself by removing their limits for devastating power but also for devastating cost.

I feel like Ritualist should go to necromancer, as the theme is already there and paired with core it could be made into a proper occultist like spec.

Assassin should go to messmer considering how close they are due to their worship of lyssa, and the fact they use similar techniques.

To be honest I feel like we need a new class, or new classes and that E-specs just may not be enough anymore? They are good and all but a whole new class with two E-specs each would win my money on principle if it was something I liked the theme of. (Plus it keeps classes from potentially loosing their identity by gaining similar tools to other classes.)

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

[Kodama.6453]

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

To be fair, all core legends you can invoke are male (or 3 male and 1 neutral, if you don't want to count Mallyx as male).So I don't really care if they add another female elite spec legend.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

To be fair, all core legends you can invoke are male (or 3 male and 1 neutral, if you don't want to count Mallyx as male).So I don't really care if they add another female elite spec legend.

Jora is in no way as significant as Asgeir and I have a feeling her kit would be WAAAY less epic and involved. I don't care on gender.... I care about it not being worthless garbo like kalla.

[Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

To be fair, all core legends you can invoke are male (or 3 male and 1 neutral, if you don't want to count Mallyx as male).So I don't really care if they add another female elite spec legend.

Jora is in no way as significant as Asgeir and I have a feeling her kit would be WAAAY less epic and involved. I don't care on gender.... I care about it not being worthless garbo like kalla.

Sir, Jora stop primodus by killing the great destroyer. She is loved by the vast majority of the GW1 community, we played with her through all of EoTN and she was also an amazing character in general. The GW2 story line even refers her mulitple times, I remember getting chills the 1st time I saw her statue in Hoelbrak. I picked Norn because of how awesome and impactful Jora's story was. Asgeir by comparison is just some random character they made up, he was scared or worse tricked by his foes to flee. I'd hate to invoke the legend of a coward especially a norn coward.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

To be fair, all core legends you can invoke are male (or 3 male and 1 neutral, if you don't want to count Mallyx as male).So I don't really care if they add another female elite spec legend.

Jora is in no way as significant as Asgeir and I have a feeling her kit would be WAAAY less epic and involved. I don't care on gender.... I care about it not being worthless garbo like kalla.

Sir, Jora stop primodus by killing the great destroyer. She is loved by the vast majority of the GW1 community, we played with her through all of EoTN and she was also an amazing character in general. The GW2 story line even refers her mulitple times, I remember getting chills the 1st time I saw her statue in Hoelbrak. I picked Norn because of how awesome and impactful Jora's story was. Asgeir by comparison is just some random character they made up, he was scared or worse tricked by his foes to flee. I'd hate to invoke the legend of a coward especially a norn coward.

So feminist got it. Anyhow Asgeir KILLED frostfang and fought off drakkar in the original telling of his tale, and even fought jormag to a stand still and as he still damaged a Elder dragon as he did knock his fang out regardless of whatever else Id say he is far more significant in terms of power. Jora wouldn't give anything the other legends don't already cover due to her being a warrior, one who lost bears blessing and as far as we know never fully got it back outside of bears forgiveness. She never gained the ability to transform or invoke bears might. She is a significant and well loved character, one of my favorites but I hate to see why she would be chosen over Asgeir or even her brother svanir as both had huge lasting impacts. Jora is a legend, she has statues and so do many other characters like Pyre who set off the charr revolution but they chose kalla instead even though pyre was the start of the initial movement which was huge and HE TOO IS a loved character.

The ripples of svanirs actions are still felt today, he has a death cult based after him and even still lingers within the mists. He was powerful enough to inspire fear into the norn and even claim several settlements to his ravenous rampage.

Asgeir literally built the norns way of life, and saved them. He was not a coward as he thought about his people rather than brashly running on, this could also be due to jormags eldritch nature. Jormag was scared and used its mind magic to get Asgeir to leave; But he saved his people none the less and if he had killed jormag back then he might very well of doomed the world. (Imagine if we killed Zaithan and then killed Mordremoth not knowing about the dragons and magic back lash. Tyria woulda poped.)

As much as I love jora, I don't see her kit offering us something cool and fun.. I see it being something more like jalis or shiro and honestly neither of those are very fun anymore. I don't want a warrior clone spec~ The fact Asgeir was blessed by ALL the spirits of the wild automatically makes him have tons of things that could be added and used, plus the freedom of not having known his power and now knowing he also knew and had jotuun magic on his side? Yea. Interesting kit indeed.

[Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Scoobaniec.9561" said:Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

To be fair, all core legends you can invoke are male (or 3 male and 1 neutral, if you don't want to count Mallyx as male).So I don't really care if they add another female elite spec legend.

Jora is in no way as significant as Asgeir and I have a feeling her kit would be WAAAY less epic and involved. I don't care on gender.... I care about it not being worthless garbo like kalla.

Sir, Jora stop primodus by killing the great destroyer. She is loved by the vast majority of the GW1 community, we played with her through all of EoTN and she was also an amazing character in general. The GW2 story line even refers her mulitple times, I remember getting chills the 1st time I saw her statue in Hoelbrak. I picked Norn because of how awesome and impactful Jora's story was. Asgeir by comparison is just some random character they made up, he was scared or worse tricked by his foes to flee. I'd hate to invoke the legend of a coward especially a norn coward.

So feminist got it. Anyhow Asgeir KILLED frostfang and fought off drakkar in the original telling of his tale, and even fought jormag to a stand still and as he still damaged a Elder dragon as he did knock his fang out regardless of whatever else Id say he is far more significant in terms of power. Jora wouldn't give anything the other legends don't already cover due to her being a warrior, one who lost bears blessing and as far as we know never fully got it back outside of bears forgiveness. She never gained the ability to transform or invoke bears might. She is a significant and well loved character, one of my favorites but I hate to see why she would be chosen over Asgeir or even her brother svanir as both had huge lasting impacts. Jora is a legend, she has statues and so do many other characters like Pyre who set off the charr revolution but they chose kalla instead even though pyre was the start of the initial movement which was huge and HE TOO IS a loved character.

The ripples of svanirs actions are still felt today, he has a death cult based after him and even still lingers within the mists. He was powerful enough to inspire fear into the norn and even claim several settlements to his ravenous rampage.

Asgeir literally built the norns way of life, and saved them. He was not a coward as he thought about his people rather than brashly running on, this could also be due to jormags eldritch nature. Jormag was scared and used its mind magic to get Asgeir to leave; But he saved his people none the less and if he had killed jormag back then he might very well of doomed the world. (Imagine if we killed Zaithan and then killed Mordremoth not knowing about the dragons and magic back lash. Tyria woulda poped.)

As much as I love jora, I don't see her kit offering us something cool and fun.. I see it being something more like jalis or shiro and honestly neither of those are very fun anymore. I don't want a warrior clone spec~ The fact Asgeir was blessed by ALL the spirits of the wild automatically makes him have tons of things that could be added and used, plus the freedom of not having known his power and now knowing he also knew and had jotuun magic on his side? Yea. Interesting kit indeed.

Asgeir did not save the norn. Asgeir lied to the norn, there is a difference. He was not true and honest to his people and did not let them chose their fate. You can't call him a hero or villian just a liar. We don't even know if him killing anything is true nor that he even wounded the dragon. Jormag could of just handed it to him to make his story believable. It is obvious that Jormag does not want to fight he wants to be left alone.

The Great Destroyer was more powerful than Frostfang. Primorius is the most powerful dragon and it stands to reason that his champion would therefore be the most powerful. Jora is therefore on par in terms of power IF Asgeir's story is even true, all of that could be a lie or simply Jormag's plan. Jora also regain's her ability to become bear after slaying the great destroyer.

This idea that Jora will somehow be a copy paste of a warrior is insane. Anet has never built a copy paste of any class ever so that arguement is simply null and void. Additionally, how would Asgeir be any different? He is a male norn warrior. The biggest problem I see with Asgeir is his character. He was a liar and when the truth of what he did gets out it will rock Norn society. Jora on the hand was dealt a shitty hand by her brother. She did lose bear's favor but worked tirelessly to regain it and did so when she slew the Great destroyer. You would know this if you talk to her when you beat the EoTN she says "Thanks to you, I can become the bear once more. For that I am forever grateful. We will hunt together again." I personally prefer someone who is resilient in the face of adversity to someone who thinks he knows best and tells everyone to run.

Towards the spirits agreuement, Asgeir was "blessed by all the spirits" because thats what Anet has been adding to the game. In Jora's time Raven, Bear and Wolf were the only spirits in the story. Additonally all Norn player characters are blessed by the spirits of the wild EXCEPT Revenants. So imo that doesnt really hold much water. and I REALLY dont want anything spirit spammer like kalla.

Jora is a very powerful warrior and could offer us a very clean and to the point Greatsword power spec. That is something we desperately need on the Revenant class, Anet has tried to give the class very unique mechanics and I appreciate their efforts however, Glint is very rarely used in PvE and shield also pretty rare cuz its more or less useless in all formats of the game. Kalla is better but spirits struggle to be placed due to pathing issues and the shortbow has so many issues it has its own thread. A Simple bursty Greatsword with a little CC would be fine and pair well with S/S's sustained dps. I am not a dev but Shiro doesn't fit well with anyother legend atm so why not just make it Jora? I mean she was one of the few norn that was even willing to work with humans.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Scoobaniec.9561" said:Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

To be fair, all core legends you can invoke are male (or 3 male and 1 neutral, if you don't want to count Mallyx as male).So I don't really care if they add another female elite spec legend.

Jora is in no way as significant as Asgeir and I have a feeling her kit would be WAAAY less epic and involved. I don't care on gender.... I care about it not being worthless garbo like kalla.

Sir, Jora stop primodus by killing the great destroyer. She is loved by the vast majority of the GW1 community, we played with her through all of EoTN and she was also an amazing character in general. The GW2 story line even refers her mulitple times, I remember getting chills the 1st time I saw her statue in Hoelbrak. I picked Norn because of how awesome and impactful Jora's story was. Asgeir by comparison is just some random character they made up, he was scared or worse tricked by his foes to flee. I'd hate to invoke the legend of a coward especially a norn coward.

So feminist got it. Anyhow Asgeir KILLED frostfang and fought off drakkar in the original telling of his tale, and even fought jormag to a stand still and as he still damaged a Elder dragon as he did knock his fang out regardless of whatever else Id say he is far more significant in terms of power. Jora wouldn't give anything the other legends don't already cover due to her being a warrior, one who lost bears blessing and as far as we know never fully got it back outside of bears forgiveness. She never gained the ability to transform or invoke bears might. She is a significant and well loved character, one of my favorites but I hate to see why she would be chosen over Asgeir or even her brother svanir as both had huge lasting impacts. Jora is a legend, she has statues and so do many other characters like Pyre who set off the charr revolution but they chose kalla instead even though pyre was the start of the initial movement which was huge and HE TOO IS a loved character.

The ripples of svanirs actions are still felt today, he has a death cult based after him and even still lingers within the mists. He was powerful enough to inspire fear into the norn and even claim several settlements to his ravenous rampage.

Asgeir literally built the norns way of life, and saved them. He was not a coward as he thought about his people rather than brashly running on, this could also be due to jormags eldritch nature. Jormag was scared and used its mind magic to get Asgeir to leave; But he saved his people none the less and if he had killed jormag back then he might very well of doomed the world. (Imagine if we killed Zaithan and then killed Mordremoth not knowing about the dragons and magic back lash. Tyria woulda poped.)

As much as I love jora, I don't see her kit offering us something cool and fun.. I see it being something more like jalis or shiro and honestly neither of those are very fun anymore. I don't want a warrior clone spec~ The fact Asgeir was blessed by ALL the spirits of the wild automatically makes him have tons of things that could be added and used, plus the freedom of not having known his power and now knowing he also knew and had jotuun magic on his side? Yea. Interesting kit indeed.

Asgeir did not save the norn. Asgeir lied to the norn, there is a difference. He was not true and honest to his people and did not let them chose their fate. You can't call him a hero or villian just a liar. We don't even know if him killing anything is true nor that he even wounded the dragon. Jormag could of just handed it to him to make his story believable. It is obvious that Jormag does not want to fight he wants to be left alone.

The Great Destroyer was more powerful than Frostfang. Primorius is the most powerful dragon and it stands to reason that his champion would therefore be the most powerful. Jora is therefore on par in terms of power IF Asgeir's story is even true, all of that could be a lie or simply Jormag's plan. Jora also regain's her ability to become bear after slaying the great destroyer.

This idea that Jora will somehow be a copy paste of a warrior is insane. Anet has never built a copy paste of any class ever so that arguement is simply null and void. Additionally, how would Asgeir be any different? He is a male norn warrior. The biggest problem I see with Asgeir is his character. He was a liar and when the truth of what he did gets out it will rock Norn society. Jora on the hand was dealt a kitten hand by her brother. She did lose bear's favor but worked tirelessly to regain it and did so when she slew the Great destroyer. You would know this if you talk to her when you beat the EoTN she says "Thanks to you, I can become the bear once more. For that I am forever grateful. We will hunt together again." I personally prefer someone who is resilient in the face of adversity to someone who thinks he knows best and tells everyone to run.

Towards the spirits agreuement, Asgeir was "blessed by all the spirits" because thats what Anet has been adding to the game. In Jora's time Raven, Bear and Wolf were the only spirits in the story. Additonally all Norn player characters are blessed by the spirits of the wild EXCEPT Revenants. So imo that doesnt really hold much water. and I REALLY dont want anything spirit spammer like kalla.

Jora is a very powerful warrior and could offer us a very clean and to the point Greatsword power spec. That is something we desperately need on the Revenant class, Anet has tried to give the class very unique mechanics and I appreciate their efforts however, Glint is very rarely used in PvE and shield also pretty rare cuz its more or less useless in all formats of the game. Kalla is better but spirits struggle to be placed due to pathing issues and the shortbow has so many issues it has its own thread. A Simple bursty Greatsword with a little CC would be fine and pair well with S/S's sustained dps. I am not a dev but Shiro doesn't fit well with anyother legend atm so why not just make it Jora? I mean she was one of the few norn that was even willing to work with humans.

Or hear me out, Asgeir in his interactions could lament that he "Couldn't" finish jormag and if you find the book within Bjora he talks about how he failed. He fought until his body gave out and he was on the brink of death, he lied to his people because he KNEW they would rush out to confront the dragon no matter the loss. So he lied to them to protect them from dooming his species to extinction and he even said to himself "Why did I feel like I could've finished it." And maybe he very well could of, but At the same time would it of made a difference today? Probably not. The sons of svanir would worship another dragon, and there is no distinction that Primordius is stronger than jormag and if anything Id wager Jormag is more powerful as it is more influential than primo who just kinda does things.

Sometimes its better to tell a lie to protect everyone so they can fight another day, he straight says in his writing that he hopes the next to take is place can handle the weight of his choice and do what he could not. So as a legend he might not be perfect personality wise, but he would be something of a character seeking redemption in the aid of us. Through us he could make peace with his mistakes and maybe find atonement and even might look to us as his successor and someone to impart wisdom too now that he is within the mists? Jora would just be more of the same, blah-blah hero who is here to save the day. I like the idea of Asgeir being saddened and asking about his people, concerned with the world of tyria. To your point of the PC being blessed? No they aren't. They just made them all useable forms so no one would complain when they picked one and got hard locked, which is why wolf also only refers to your chosen spirit in Bjora when you speak with him. Gameplay does not equate to lore or cannon as PLENTY of liberties have been taken, and if the norn equated to their lore they would be WAY cooler than they are in the representation they get in game.

Jora was a strong warrior, one of the best I reckon outside of her society though Id wager she wasn't "The best" norn warrior. To be perfectly honest norn are individualistic and the only real racist ones are the svanir, and even they aren't all that bad when compared to the charr or even the humans themselves. Plus the spirits Asgeir was blessed by were the strongest, and while jora was blessed by bear I just don't see her being a worthwhile choice as he interactions would be bland. It would be much like how kalla interacts with us, the dialogue would be some kinda meh trash when we could get something more emotional and even encouraging.

Asgeir to human pc: "You're strong human. Don't let your strength make you arrogant, for that is the first failure of every warrior."

Human PC To Asgeir: "Ill not let myself fall into that trap, Ill do what must be done."

As for your assesment of the two id say you sound like you just want a woman. Id wager if it wasn't a norn but was still female you'd be content and im looking at it from a storytelling perspective. Frostfang by the way was NEVER confirmed to be weaker than the great-destroyer anywhere in the lore, and I also said he fought drakkar as well I believe in a 3 v1. He pushed one off, killed one and damaged jormag. Jora NEVER fought an elder dragon, let alone pushed herself until her body broke and she was near death. Jormag spared Asgeir but I do believe he took its tooth from its face as the final blow he could muster in his bodies weakened state. Again he lied to keep his people from blindly rushing to their deaths and he had hoped it would give them time to find a way. Because at the end of the day back then with one race taking on an elder Im not sure they would of won; Thats like saying that the charr alone could take on Kralk, mordremoth or Zaithan.. If they could why didn't they? The dragons are stronger than the six, so much so that the six ran away. So I feel like Asgeir even doing damage to where Jormag told him to take his prize and go, was proof enough of his might and his ability to live with himself after he lied to keep his people safe was more than enough to prove his courage.

Takes a braver man to do what must be done for his people, than one who seeks praise and admiration. He felt shame and from the reading you can do of him he seems like he died with regrets, having him come back to finish what he started and settle old grudges would be sick. I love jora, I just don't feel like we need another pure-hero character. We already have too many good guys and not enough morally grey/evil beings to channel. And as for her being a carbon copy of warrior? Well I mean look at shiro as it stands after his last round of changes. He is a hollow husk of a legend, with a lame kit and honestly feels like thief with no stealth and more mobility/attempt at bruiser play. Do you honestly believe that Jora would get a good kit, and bring in good gameplay with how they handled glint and kalla as well the other legends? The other legends were bosses from the previous games they could of just translated their kits and made them scale and function for guild wars 2's combat but they didn't. I have little faith they would come up with anything interesting for jora. If they however let us change into the bear spirit like the norn did in guild wars 1 that'd be sick, as the current shapeshifting is trash and is freaking the most dissapointing part of this game for me. (Needs a revamp)

To how Asgeir could be different? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1197516

That forum post goes into the kind of kit I'd like to see for him. I feel like that would make him unique and Jora would just get some generic, copy paste of something from guild wars 1 without it being given much depth. Mainly because at this stage? I don't trust A-net to be as innovative with our legends going forward.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Scoobaniec.9561" said:Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

To be fair, all core legends you can invoke are male (or 3 male and 1 neutral, if you don't want to count Mallyx as male).So I don't really care if they add another female elite spec legend.

Jora is in no way as significant as Asgeir and I have a feeling her kit would be WAAAY less epic and involved. I don't care on gender.... I care about it not being worthless garbo like kalla.

Sir, Jora stop primodus by killing the great destroyer. She is loved by the vast majority of the GW1 community, we played with her through all of EoTN and she was also an amazing character in general. The GW2 story line even refers her mulitple times, I remember getting chills the 1st time I saw her statue in Hoelbrak. I picked Norn because of how awesome and impactful Jora's story was. Asgeir by comparison is just some random character they made up, he was scared or worse tricked by his foes to flee. I'd hate to invoke the legend of a coward especially a norn coward.

So feminist got it. Anyhow Asgeir KILLED frostfang and fought off drakkar in the original telling of his tale, and even fought jormag to a stand still and as he still damaged a Elder dragon as he did knock his fang out regardless of whatever else Id say he is far more significant in terms of power. Jora wouldn't give anything the other legends don't already cover due to her being a warrior, one who lost bears blessing and as far as we know never fully got it back outside of bears forgiveness. She never gained the ability to transform or invoke bears might. She is a significant and well loved character, one of my favorites but I hate to see why she would be chosen over Asgeir or even her brother svanir as both had huge lasting impacts. Jora is a legend, she has statues and so do many other characters like Pyre who set off the charr revolution but they chose kalla instead even though pyre was the start of the initial movement which was huge and HE TOO IS a loved character.

The ripples of svanirs actions are still felt today, he has a death cult based after him and even still lingers within the mists. He was powerful enough to inspire fear into the norn and even claim several settlements to his ravenous rampage.

Asgeir literally built the norns way of life, and saved them. He was not a coward as he thought about his people rather than brashly running on, this could also be due to jormags eldritch nature. Jormag was scared and used its mind magic to get Asgeir to leave; But he saved his people none the less and if he had killed jormag back then he might very well of doomed the world. (Imagine if we killed Zaithan and then killed Mordremoth not knowing about the dragons and magic back lash. Tyria woulda poped.)

As much as I love jora, I don't see her kit offering us something cool and fun.. I see it being something more like jalis or shiro and honestly neither of those are very fun anymore. I don't want a warrior clone spec~ The fact Asgeir was blessed by ALL the spirits of the wild automatically makes him have tons of things that could be added and used, plus the freedom of not having known his power and now knowing he also knew and had jotuun magic on his side? Yea. Interesting kit indeed.

Asgeir did not save the norn. Asgeir lied to the norn, there is a difference. He was not true and honest to his people and did not let them chose their fate. You can't call him a hero or villian just a liar. We don't even know if him killing anything is true nor that he even wounded the dragon. Jormag could of just handed it to him to make his story believable. It is obvious that Jormag does not want to fight he wants to be left alone.

The Great Destroyer was more powerful than Frostfang. Primorius is the most powerful dragon and it stands to reason that his champion would therefore be the most powerful. Jora is therefore on par in terms of power IF Asgeir's story is even true, all of that could be a lie or simply Jormag's plan. Jora also regain's her ability to become bear after slaying the great destroyer.

This idea that Jora will somehow be a copy paste of a warrior is insane. Anet has never built a copy paste of any class ever so that arguement is simply null and void. Additionally, how would Asgeir be any different? He is a male norn warrior. The biggest problem I see with Asgeir is his character. He was a liar and when the truth of what he did gets out it will rock Norn society. Jora on the hand was dealt a kitten hand by her brother. She did lose bear's favor but worked tirelessly to regain it and did so when she slew the Great destroyer. You would know this if you talk to her when you beat the EoTN she says "Thanks to you, I can become the bear once more. For that I am forever grateful. We will hunt together again." I personally prefer someone who is resilient in the face of adversity to someone who thinks he knows best and tells everyone to run.

Towards the spirits agreuement, Asgeir was "blessed by all the spirits" because thats what Anet has been adding to the game. In Jora's time Raven, Bear and Wolf were the only spirits in the story. Additonally all Norn player characters are blessed by the spirits of the wild EXCEPT Revenants. So imo that doesnt really hold much water. and I REALLY dont want anything spirit spammer like kalla.

Jora is a very powerful warrior and could offer us a very clean and to the point Greatsword power spec. That is something we desperately need on the Revenant class, Anet has tried to give the class very unique mechanics and I appreciate their efforts however, Glint is very rarely used in PvE and shield also pretty rare cuz its more or less useless in all formats of the game. Kalla is better but spirits struggle to be placed due to pathing issues and the shortbow has so many issues it has its own thread. A Simple bursty Greatsword with a little CC would be fine and pair well with S/S's sustained dps. I am not a dev but Shiro doesn't fit well with anyother legend atm so why not just make it Jora? I mean she was one of the few norn that was even willing to work with humans.

Let me also add, because I got to thinking about it but felt it deserved a separate post. I feel Jormag is very much related to Jormungandr the world serpent, and this would then make Asgeir our version of Thor. In the old tales Thor is brash, he is stubborn and he is cocky as all get out as he believes there is nothing stronger than him within the world and there is nothing capable of bringing him down. Jormungandr the world serpent is a child of loki, brother to Fenrir and the harbinger or one of the harbingers of Ragnarok. Id like to assume Fenrir is represented by Primordius as the fire and rage theme really seems like a thing, and since the two elder dragons are tied together it would make sense that they are "closer" in being siblings than the others perhaps.

Now, back to the main topic. Thor and Jormungandr are fated to kill one another, where upon finishing his battle after The world serpent had blotted out the sun with venom and filled the seas with poisonous blood Thor would fall. He would take nine steps and die, due to the venom and wounds from his battle with the mighty beast and I think this is indicative of Asgeir and Jormag. Jormag and Asgeir fought and Asgeir injured the Elder dragon causing the dragon to back off and reconsider its options, perhaps because it knew perhaps it could be slain by the norn. Asgeir broken, and bloody who had fought with every intention of avenging the norn who had fallen and avenge the death of owl was determined. Until Jormag spoke and told him of his choice, and Jormag honestly made him a real deal and didn't come for the norn and let them go south. It said it "Understood" that the norn were "Special" and were key to the cycle, which has yet to be explained but his book that he wrote explains that its voice felt like home. Jormag chose to be diplomatic and in the end it let Asgeir take its fang to show his people, but to also warn them not to come back until a champion would rise which I believe was Asgeir's doing more than jorms. I think Asgeir made the legend of the one who could crack the fang to ensure a norn could come forward to finish the fight. I also believe that Asgeir returning means we could finish his fight and the cycle could be completed if that is the route they want to take, but this could also be synonymous with the potential plot in cantha as well.

When we go to cantha we will not be friends, we will be enemies as they are xenophobic spiritualists set in their ways. Isolated under the dragon emperor and made to believe in all that he believes in. Asgeir returning might not be simply to fight jormag and end its tyranny if jormag is infact evil, Im beginning to have my doubts honestly due to its actions and how it really seems to be testing us. I think a being who is full of regret could easily come to be a better story within a story for us rev players, especially when paired with the potential big reveal that jormag MIGHT not be an evil and or malevolent force but more of a primordial one.

Now watch these two videos and place them side by side, and make a short story in your head. And tell me that a Asgeir who wants to atone and prove he is still worthy, still capable and is not a villain who lied but a concerned leader of his people would be a bad story? Us interacting with him and being like his living legacy, and changing how history turns with him guiding us as an all seeing force of wisdom and might. A bastion who is basically a being beyond us but someone who also sees us as their equal, we could have very interesting interactions and ambient dialogue. Again I love jora but I feel this is more compelling, and I feel like he himself would be more interesting of a character than simply jora being there for the lol's. We have experienced, met and fought alongside jora but we have never once interacted with Asgeir outside of his mists echo within Bjora marches at his legacy. So think what you will of him but know that there so many facets to his character that I feel like he could offer a lot more in terms of narrative support regardless of wherever he comes into play.

[Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Scoobaniec.9561" said:Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

To be fair, all core legends you can invoke are male (or 3 male and 1 neutral, if you don't want to count Mallyx as male).So I don't really care if they add another female elite spec legend.

Jora is in no way as significant as Asgeir and I have a feeling her kit would be WAAAY less epic and involved. I don't care on gender.... I care about it not being worthless garbo like kalla.

Sir, Jora stop primodus by killing the great destroyer. She is loved by the vast majority of the GW1 community, we played with her through all of EoTN and she was also an amazing character in general. The GW2 story line even refers her mulitple times, I remember getting chills the 1st time I saw her statue in Hoelbrak. I picked Norn because of how awesome and impactful Jora's story was. Asgeir by comparison is just some random character they made up, he was scared or worse tricked by his foes to flee. I'd hate to invoke the legend of a coward especially a norn coward.

So feminist got it. Anyhow Asgeir KILLED frostfang and fought off drakkar in the original telling of his tale, and even fought jormag to a stand still and as he still damaged a Elder dragon as he did knock his fang out regardless of whatever else Id say he is far more significant in terms of power. Jora wouldn't give anything the other legends don't already cover due to her being a warrior, one who lost bears blessing and as far as we know never fully got it back outside of bears forgiveness. She never gained the ability to transform or invoke bears might. She is a significant and well loved character, one of my favorites but I hate to see why she would be chosen over Asgeir or even her brother svanir as both had huge lasting impacts. Jora is a legend, she has statues and so do many other characters like Pyre who set off the charr revolution but they chose kalla instead even though pyre was the start of the initial movement which was huge and HE TOO IS a loved character.

The ripples of svanirs actions are still felt today, he has a death cult based after him and even still lingers within the mists. He was powerful enough to inspire fear into the norn and even claim several settlements to his ravenous rampage.

Asgeir literally built the norns way of life, and saved them. He was not a coward as he thought about his people rather than brashly running on, this could also be due to jormags eldritch nature. Jormag was scared and used its mind magic to get Asgeir to leave; But he saved his people none the less and if he had killed jormag back then he might very well of doomed the world. (Imagine if we killed Zaithan and then killed Mordremoth not knowing about the dragons and magic back lash. Tyria woulda poped.)

As much as I love jora, I don't see her kit offering us something cool and fun.. I see it being something more like jalis or shiro and honestly neither of those are very fun anymore. I don't want a warrior clone spec~ The fact Asgeir was blessed by ALL the spirits of the wild automatically makes him have tons of things that could be added and used, plus the freedom of not having known his power and now knowing he also knew and had jotuun magic on his side? Yea. Interesting kit indeed.

Asgeir did not save the norn. Asgeir lied to the norn, there is a difference. He was not true and honest to his people and did not let them chose their fate. You can't call him a hero or villian just a liar. We don't even know if him killing anything is true nor that he even wounded the dragon. Jormag could of just handed it to him to make his story believable. It is obvious that Jormag does not want to fight he wants to be left alone.

The Great Destroyer was more powerful than Frostfang. Primorius is the most powerful dragon and it stands to reason that his champion would therefore be the most powerful. Jora is therefore on par in terms of power IF Asgeir's story is even true, all of that could be a lie or simply Jormag's plan. Jora also regain's her ability to become bear after slaying the great destroyer.

This idea that Jora will somehow be a copy paste of a warrior is insane. Anet has never built a copy paste of any class ever so that arguement is simply null and void. Additionally, how would Asgeir be any different? He is a male norn warrior. The biggest problem I see with Asgeir is his character. He was a liar and when the truth of what he did gets out it will rock Norn society. Jora on the hand was dealt a kitten hand by her brother. She did lose bear's favor but worked tirelessly to regain it and did so when she slew the Great destroyer. You would know this if you talk to her when you beat the EoTN she says "Thanks to you, I can become the bear once more. For that I am forever grateful. We will hunt together again." I personally prefer someone who is resilient in the face of adversity to someone who thinks he knows best and tells everyone to run.

Towards the spirits agreuement, Asgeir was "blessed by all the spirits" because thats what Anet has been adding to the game. In Jora's time Raven, Bear and Wolf were the only spirits in the story. Additonally all Norn player characters are blessed by the spirits of the wild EXCEPT Revenants. So imo that doesnt really hold much water. and I REALLY dont want anything spirit spammer like kalla.

Jora is a very powerful warrior and could offer us a very clean and to the point Greatsword power spec. That is something we desperately need on the Revenant class, Anet has tried to give the class very unique mechanics and I appreciate their efforts however, Glint is very rarely used in PvE and shield also pretty rare cuz its more or less useless in all formats of the game. Kalla is better but spirits struggle to be placed due to pathing issues and the shortbow has so many issues it has its own thread. A Simple bursty Greatsword with a little CC would be fine and pair well with S/S's sustained dps. I am not a dev but Shiro doesn't fit well with anyother legend atm so why not just make it Jora? I mean she was one of the few norn that was even willing to work with humans.

Or hear me out, Asgeir in his interactions could lament that he "Couldn't" finish jormag and if you find the book within Bjora he talks about how he failed. He fought until his body gave out and he was on the brink of death, he lied to his people because he KNEW they would rush out to confront the dragon no matter the loss. So he lied to them to protect them from dooming his species to extinction and he even said to himself "Why did I feel like I could've finished it." And maybe he very well could of, but At the same time would it of made a difference today? Probably not. The sons of svanir would worship another dragon, and there is no distinction that Primordius is stronger than jormag and if anything Id wager Jormag is more powerful as it is more influential than primo who just kinda does things.

Sometimes its better to tell a lie to protect everyone so they can fight another day, he straight says in his writing that he hopes the next to take is place can handle the weight of his choice and do what he could not. So as a legend he might not be perfect personality wise, but he would be something of a character seeking redemption in the aid of us. Through us he could make peace with his mistakes and maybe find atonement and even might look to us as his successor and someone to impart wisdom too now that he is within the mists? Jora would just be more of the same, blah-blah hero who is here to save the day. I like the idea of Asgeir being saddened and asking about his people, concerned with the world of tyria. To your point of the PC being blessed? No they aren't. They just made them all useable forms so no one would complain when they picked one and got hard locked, which is why wolf also only refers to your chosen spirit in Bjora when you speak with him. Gameplay does not equate to lore or cannon as PLENTY of liberties have been taken, and if the norn equated to their lore they would be WAY cooler than they are in the representation they get in game.

Jora was a strong warrior, one of the best I reckon outside of her society though Id wager she wasn't "The best" norn warrior. To be perfectly honest norn are individualistic and the only real racist ones are the svanir, and even they aren't all that bad when compared to the charr or even the humans themselves. Plus the spirits Asgeir was blessed by were the strongest, and while jora was blessed by bear I just don't see her being a worthwhile choice as he interactions would be bland. It would be much like how kalla interacts with us, the dialogue would be some kinda meh trash when we could get something more emotional and even encouraging.

Asgeir to human pc: "You're strong human. Don't let your strength make you arrogant, for that is the first failure of every warrior."

Human PC To Asgeir: "Ill not let myself fall into that trap, Ill do what must be done."

As for your assesment of the two id say you sound like you just want a woman. Id wager if it wasn't a norn but was still female you'd be content and im looking at it from a storytelling perspective. Frostfang by the way was NEVER confirmed to be weaker than the great-destroyer anywhere in the lore, and I also said he fought drakkar as well I believe in a 3 v1. He pushed one off, killed one and damaged jormag. Jora NEVER fought an elder dragon, let alone pushed herself until her body broke and she was near death. Jormag spared Asgeir but I do believe he took its tooth from its face as the final blow he could muster in his bodies weakened state. Again he lied to keep his people from blindly rushing to their deaths and he had hoped it would give them time to find a way. Because at the end of the day back then with one race taking on an elder Im not sure they would of won; Thats like saying that the charr alone could take on Kralk, mordremoth or Zaithan.. If they could why didn't they? The dragons are stronger than the six, so much so that the six ran away. So I feel like Asgeir even doing damage to where Jormag told him to take his prize and go, was proof enough of his might and his ability to live with himself after he lied to keep his people safe was more than enough to prove his courage.

Takes a braver man to do what must be done for his people, than one who seeks praise and admiration. He felt shame and from the reading you can do of him he seems like he died with regrets, having him come back to finish what he started and settle old grudges would be sick. I love jora, I just don't feel like we need another pure-hero character. We already have too many good guys and not enough morally grey/evil beings to channel. And as for her being a carbon copy of warrior? Well I mean look at shiro as it stands after his last round of changes. He is a hollow husk of a legend, with a lame kit and honestly feels like thief with no stealth and more mobility/attempt at bruiser play. Do you honestly believe that Jora would get a good kit, and bring in good gameplay with how they handled glint and kalla as well the other legends? The other legends were bosses from the previous games they could of just translated their kits and made them scale and function for guild wars 2's combat but they didn't. I have little faith they would come up with anything interesting for jora. If they however let us change into the bear spirit like the norn did in guild wars 1 that'd be sick, as the current shapeshifting is trash and is freaking the most dissapointing part of this game for me. (Needs a revamp)

To how Asgeir could be different?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1197516

That forum post goes into the kind of kit I'd like to see for him. I feel like that would make him unique and Jora would just get some generic, copy paste of something from guild wars 1 without it being given much depth. Mainly because at this stage? I don't trust A-net to be as innovative with our legends going forward.

I first like to start by addressing what been pissing me off the most. The only person that has been enthralled by whats between someone's legs so far within this conversation is you. You have on multiple occasion made this logic jump that because I want Jora I am somehow a feminist and that a legend being female is at all relevant. The topic is about WHAT NORN LEGENDS I'd like to see on a class that deals with characters with ESTABLISHED in LORE. If it weren't norn I would easily say Archemorus or St.Viktor unless you can some how make a logic jump thats some how being sexist, but so far you've proven yourself to be quiet adept at those jumps. Your rant only shows your basis.

To Asgeir in both of your posts with regard to the story it should not make him a legend. Rather if going with your route they should be Living world updates or along those lines. Revenant Legends are those who have stories that have ended which is why i believe that Jora would make a good legend. Jora would tell us about the past and reveal small nuggets of lore about life in the far shiverpeaks and fighting Jormag before Asgeir time. Remember Hoelbrak wasnt founded in those times so there is a lot of lore to be had there.

Additionally your reasoning that Asgeir somehow knew best and that was good leadership is a kin to saying that Scarlet Briar knew best. One person should not be deciding the fate of an entire race ESPECIALLY USING DECEIT. Jormag has already show its prowess in manipulating people with us in the living story and this is likely what happened to Asgeir.

[Kodama.6453]

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Scoobaniec.9561" said:Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

To be fair, all core legends you can invoke are male (or 3 male and 1 neutral, if you don't want to count Mallyx as male).So I don't really care if they add another female elite spec legend.

Jora is in no way as significant as Asgeir and I have a feeling her kit would be WAAAY less epic and involved. I don't care on gender.... I care about it not being worthless garbo like kalla.

Sir, Jora stop primodus by killing the great destroyer. She is loved by the vast majority of the GW1 community, we played with her through all of EoTN and she was also an amazing character in general. The GW2 story line even refers her mulitple times, I remember getting chills the 1st time I saw her statue in Hoelbrak. I picked Norn because of how awesome and impactful Jora's story was. Asgeir by comparison is just some random character they made up, he was scared or worse tricked by his foes to flee. I'd hate to invoke the legend of a coward especially a norn coward.

So feminist got it. Anyhow Asgeir KILLED frostfang and fought off drakkar in the original telling of his tale, and even fought jormag to a stand still and as he still damaged a Elder dragon as he did knock his fang out regardless of whatever else Id say he is far more significant in terms of power. Jora wouldn't give anything the other legends don't already cover due to her being a warrior, one who lost bears blessing and as far as we know never fully got it back outside of bears forgiveness. She never gained the ability to transform or invoke bears might. She is a significant and well loved character, one of my favorites but I hate to see why she would be chosen over Asgeir or even her brother svanir as both had huge lasting impacts. Jora is a legend, she has statues and so do many other characters like Pyre who set off the charr revolution but they chose kalla instead even though pyre was the start of the initial movement which was huge and HE TOO IS a loved character.

The ripples of svanirs actions are still felt today, he has a death cult based after him and even still lingers within the mists. He was powerful enough to inspire fear into the norn and even claim several settlements to his ravenous rampage.

Asgeir literally built the norns way of life, and saved them. He was not a coward as he thought about his people rather than brashly running on, this could also be due to jormags eldritch nature. Jormag was scared and used its mind magic to get Asgeir to leave; But he saved his people none the less and if he had killed jormag back then he might very well of doomed the world. (Imagine if we killed Zaithan and then killed Mordremoth not knowing about the dragons and magic back lash. Tyria woulda poped.)

As much as I love jora, I don't see her kit offering us something cool and fun.. I see it being something more like jalis or shiro and honestly neither of those are very fun anymore. I don't want a warrior clone spec~ The fact Asgeir was blessed by ALL the spirits of the wild automatically makes him have tons of things that could be added and used, plus the freedom of not having known his power and now knowing he also knew and had jotuun magic on his side? Yea. Interesting kit indeed.

Asgeir did not save the norn. Asgeir lied to the norn, there is a difference. He was not true and honest to his people and did not let them chose their fate. You can't call him a hero or villian just a liar. We don't even know if him killing anything is true nor that he even wounded the dragon. Jormag could of just handed it to him to make his story believable. It is obvious that Jormag does not want to fight he wants to be left alone.

The Great Destroyer was more powerful than Frostfang. Primorius is the most powerful dragon and it stands to reason that his champion would therefore be the most powerful. Jora is therefore on par in terms of power IF Asgeir's story is even true, all of that could be a lie or simply Jormag's plan. Jora also regain's her ability to become bear after slaying the great destroyer.

This idea that Jora will somehow be a copy paste of a warrior is insane. Anet has never built a copy paste of any class ever so that arguement is simply null and void. Additionally, how would Asgeir be any different? He is a male norn warrior. The biggest problem I see with Asgeir is his character. He was a liar and when the truth of what he did gets out it will rock Norn society. Jora on the hand was dealt a kitten hand by her brother. She did lose bear's favor but worked tirelessly to regain it and did so when she slew the Great destroyer. You would know this if you talk to her when you beat the EoTN she says "Thanks to you, I can become the bear once more. For that I am forever grateful. We will hunt together again." I personally prefer someone who is resilient in the face of adversity to someone who thinks he knows best and tells everyone to run.

Towards the spirits agreuement, Asgeir was "blessed by all the spirits" because thats what Anet has been adding to the game. In Jora's time Raven, Bear and Wolf were the only spirits in the story. Additonally all Norn player characters are blessed by the spirits of the wild EXCEPT Revenants. So imo that doesnt really hold much water. and I REALLY dont want anything spirit spammer like kalla.

Jora is a very powerful warrior and could offer us a very clean and to the point Greatsword power spec. That is something we desperately need on the Revenant class, Anet has tried to give the class very unique mechanics and I appreciate their efforts however, Glint is very rarely used in PvE and shield also pretty rare cuz its more or less useless in all formats of the game. Kalla is better but spirits struggle to be placed due to pathing issues and the shortbow has so many issues it has its own thread. A Simple bursty Greatsword with a little CC would be fine and pair well with S/S's sustained dps. I am not a dev but Shiro doesn't fit well with anyother legend atm so why not just make it Jora? I mean she was one of the few norn that was even willing to work with humans.

Or hear me out, Asgeir in his interactions could lament that he "Couldn't" finish jormag and if you find the book within Bjora he talks about how he failed. He fought until his body gave out and he was on the brink of death, he lied to his people because he KNEW they would rush out to confront the dragon no matter the loss. So he lied to them to protect them from dooming his species to extinction and he even said to himself "Why did I feel like I could've finished it." And maybe he very well could of, but At the same time would it of made a difference today? Probably not. The sons of svanir would worship another dragon, and there is no distinction that Primordius is stronger than jormag and if anything Id wager Jormag is more powerful as it is more influential than primo who just kinda does things.

Sometimes its better to tell a lie to protect everyone so they can fight another day, he straight says in his writing that he hopes the next to take is place can handle the weight of his choice and do what he could not. So as a legend he might not be perfect personality wise, but he would be something of a character seeking redemption in the aid of us. Through us he could make peace with his mistakes and maybe find atonement and even might look to us as his successor and someone to impart wisdom too now that he is within the mists? Jora would just be more of the same, blah-blah hero who is here to save the day. I like the idea of Asgeir being saddened and asking about his people, concerned with the world of tyria. To your point of the PC being blessed? No they aren't. They just made them all useable forms so no one would complain when they picked one and got hard locked, which is why wolf also only refers to your chosen spirit in Bjora when you speak with him. Gameplay does not equate to lore or cannon as PLENTY of liberties have been taken, and if the norn equated to their lore they would be WAY cooler than they are in the representation they get in game.

Jora was a strong warrior, one of the best I reckon outside of her society though Id wager she wasn't "The best" norn warrior. To be perfectly honest norn are individualistic and the only real racist ones are the svanir, and even they aren't all that bad when compared to the charr or even the humans themselves. Plus the spirits Asgeir was blessed by were the strongest, and while jora was blessed by bear I just don't see her being a worthwhile choice as he interactions would be bland. It would be much like how kalla interacts with us, the dialogue would be some kinda meh trash when we could get something more emotional and even encouraging.

Asgeir to human pc: "You're strong human. Don't let your strength make you arrogant, for that is the first failure of every warrior."

Human PC To Asgeir: "Ill not let myself fall into that trap, Ill do what must be done."

As for your assesment of the two id say you sound like you just want a woman. Id wager if it wasn't a norn but was still female you'd be content and im looking at it from a storytelling perspective. Frostfang by the way was NEVER confirmed to be weaker than the great-destroyer anywhere in the lore, and I also said he fought drakkar as well I believe in a 3 v1. He pushed one off, killed one and damaged jormag. Jora NEVER fought an elder dragon, let alone pushed herself until her body broke and she was near death. Jormag spared Asgeir but I do believe he took its tooth from its face as the final blow he could muster in his bodies weakened state. Again he lied to keep his people from blindly rushing to their deaths and he had hoped it would give them time to find a way. Because at the end of the day back then with one race taking on an elder Im not sure they would of won; Thats like saying that the charr alone could take on Kralk, mordremoth or Zaithan.. If they could why didn't they? The dragons are stronger than the six, so much so that the six ran away. So I feel like Asgeir even doing damage to where Jormag told him to take his prize and go, was proof enough of his might and his ability to live with himself after he lied to keep his people safe was more than enough to prove his courage.

Takes a braver man to do what must be done for his people, than one who seeks praise and admiration. He felt shame and from the reading you can do of him he seems like he died with regrets, having him come back to finish what he started and settle old grudges would be sick. I love jora, I just don't feel like we need another pure-hero character. We already have too many good guys and not enough morally grey/evil beings to channel. And as for her being a carbon copy of warrior? Well I mean look at shiro as it stands after his last round of changes. He is a hollow husk of a legend, with a lame kit and honestly feels like thief with no stealth and more mobility/attempt at bruiser play. Do you honestly believe that Jora would get a good kit, and bring in good gameplay with how they handled glint and kalla as well the other legends? The other legends were bosses from the previous games they could of just translated their kits and made them scale and function for guild wars 2's combat but they didn't. I have little faith they would come up with anything interesting for jora. If they however let us change into the bear spirit like the norn did in guild wars 1 that'd be sick, as the current shapeshifting is trash and is freaking the most dissapointing part of this game for me. (Needs a revamp)

To how Asgeir could be different?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1197516

That forum post goes into the kind of kit I'd like to see for him. I feel like that would make him unique and Jora would just get some generic, copy paste of something from guild wars 1 without it being given much depth. Mainly because at this stage? I don't trust A-net to be as innovative with our legends going forward.

I first like to start by addressing what been pissing me off the most. The only person that has been enthralled by whats between someone's legs so far within this conversation is you. You have on multiple occasion made this logic jump that because I want Jora I am somehow a feminist and that a legend being female is at all relevant. The topic is about WHAT

NORN

LEGENDS I'd like to see on a class that deals with characters with ESTABLISHED in LORE. If it weren't norn I would easily say Archemorus or St.Viktor unless you can some how make a logic jump thats some how being sexist, but so far you've proven yourself to be quiet adept at those jumps. Your rant only shows your basis.

To Asgeir in both of your posts with regard to the story it should not make him a legend. Rather if going with your route they should be Living world updates or along those lines. Revenant Legends are those who have stories that have ended which is why i believe that Jora would make a good legend. Jora would tell us about the past and reveal small nuggets of lore about life in the far shiverpeaks and fighting Jormag before Asgeir time. Remember Hoelbrak wasnt founded in those times so there is a lot of lore to be had there.

Additionally your reasoning that Asgeir somehow knew best and that was good leadership is a kin to saying that Scarlet Briar knew best. One person should not be deciding the fate of an entire race ESPECIALLY USING DECEIT. Jormag has already show its prowess in manipulating people with us in the living story and this is likely what happened to Asgeir.

Scarlet Briar did nothing wrong!

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Hitomi Shadowleaf.5629 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Scoobaniec.9561" said:Given the Jora outfit release we can guess shes going to be the next legend.. cant have male elite spec

To be fair, all core legends you can invoke are male (or 3 male and 1 neutral, if you don't want to count Mallyx as male).So I don't really care if they add another female elite spec legend.

Jora is in no way as significant as Asgeir and I have a feeling her kit would be WAAAY less epic and involved. I don't care on gender.... I care about it not being worthless garbo like kalla.

Sir, Jora stop primodus by killing the great destroyer. She is loved by the vast majority of the GW1 community, we played with her through all of EoTN and she was also an amazing character in general. The GW2 story line even refers her mulitple times, I remember getting chills the 1st time I saw her statue in Hoelbrak. I picked Norn because of how awesome and impactful Jora's story was. Asgeir by comparison is just some random character they made up, he was scared or worse tricked by his foes to flee. I'd hate to invoke the legend of a coward especially a norn coward.

So feminist got it. Anyhow Asgeir KILLED frostfang and fought off drakkar in the original telling of his tale, and even fought jormag to a stand still and as he still damaged a Elder dragon as he did knock his fang out regardless of whatever else Id say he is far more significant in terms of power. Jora wouldn't give anything the other legends don't already cover due to her being a warrior, one who lost bears blessing and as far as we know never fully got it back outside of bears forgiveness. She never gained the ability to transform or invoke bears might. She is a significant and well loved character, one of my favorites but I hate to see why she would be chosen over Asgeir or even her brother svanir as both had huge lasting impacts. Jora is a legend, she has statues and so do many other characters like Pyre who set off the charr revolution but they chose kalla instead even though pyre was the start of the initial movement which was huge and HE TOO IS a loved character.

The ripples of svanirs actions are still felt today, he has a death cult based after him and even still lingers within the mists. He was powerful enough to inspire fear into the norn and even claim several settlements to his ravenous rampage.

Asgeir literally built the norns way of life, and saved them. He was not a coward as he thought about his people rather than brashly running on, this could also be due to jormags eldritch nature. Jormag was scared and used its mind magic to get Asgeir to leave; But he saved his people none the less and if he had killed jormag back then he might very well of doomed the world. (Imagine if we killed Zaithan and then killed Mordremoth not knowing about the dragons and magic back lash. Tyria woulda poped.)

As much as I love jora, I don't see her kit offering us something cool and fun.. I see it being something more like jalis or shiro and honestly neither of those are very fun anymore. I don't want a warrior clone spec~ The fact Asgeir was blessed by ALL the spirits of the wild automatically makes him have tons of things that could be added and used, plus the freedom of not having known his power and now knowing he also knew and had jotuun magic on his side? Yea. Interesting kit indeed.

Asgeir did not save the norn. Asgeir lied to the norn, there is a difference. He was not true and honest to his people and did not let them chose their fate. You can't call him a hero or villian just a liar. We don't even know if him killing anything is true nor that he even wounded the dragon. Jormag could of just handed it to him to make his story believable. It is obvious that Jormag does not want to fight he wants to be left alone.

The Great Destroyer was more powerful than Frostfang. Primorius is the most powerful dragon and it stands to reason that his champion would therefore be the most powerful. Jora is therefore on par in terms of power IF Asgeir's story is even true, all of that could be a lie or simply Jormag's plan. Jora also regain's her ability to become bear after slaying the great destroyer.

This idea that Jora will somehow be a copy paste of a warrior is insane. Anet has never built a copy paste of any class ever so that arguement is simply null and void. Additionally, how would Asgeir be any different? He is a male norn warrior. The biggest problem I see with Asgeir is his character. He was a liar and when the truth of what he did gets out it will rock Norn society. Jora on the hand was dealt a kitten hand by her brother. She did lose bear's favor but worked tirelessly to regain it and did so when she slew the Great destroyer. You would know this if you talk to her when you beat the EoTN she says "Thanks to you, I can become the bear once more. For that I am forever grateful. We will hunt together again." I personally prefer someone who is resilient in the face of adversity to someone who thinks he knows best and tells everyone to run.

Towards the spirits agreuement, Asgeir was "blessed by all the spirits" because thats what Anet has been adding to the game. In Jora's time Raven, Bear and Wolf were the only spirits in the story. Additonally all Norn player characters are blessed by the spirits of the wild EXCEPT Revenants. So imo that doesnt really hold much water. and I REALLY dont want anything spirit spammer like kalla.

Jora is a very powerful warrior and could offer us a very clean and to the point Greatsword power spec. That is something we desperately need on the Revenant class, Anet has tried to give the class very unique mechanics and I appreciate their efforts however, Glint is very rarely used in PvE and shield also pretty rare cuz its more or less useless in all formats of the game. Kalla is better but spirits struggle to be placed due to pathing issues and the shortbow has so many issues it has its own thread. A Simple bursty Greatsword with a little CC would be fine and pair well with S/S's sustained dps. I am not a dev but Shiro doesn't fit well with anyother legend atm so why not just make it Jora? I mean she was one of the few norn that was even willing to work with humans.

Or hear me out, Asgeir in his interactions could lament that he "Couldn't" finish jormag and if you find the book within Bjora he talks about how he failed. He fought until his body gave out and he was on the brink of death, he lied to his people because he KNEW they would rush out to confront the dragon no matter the loss. So he lied to them to protect them from dooming his species to extinction and he even said to himself "Why did I feel like I could've finished it." And maybe he very well could of, but At the same time would it of made a difference today? Probably not. The sons of svanir would worship another dragon, and there is no distinction that Primordius is stronger than jormag and if anything Id wager Jormag is more powerful as it is more influential than primo who just kinda does things.

Sometimes its better to tell a lie to protect everyone so they can fight another day, he straight says in his writing that he hopes the next to take is place can handle the weight of his choice and do what he could not. So as a legend he might not be perfect personality wise, but he would be something of a character seeking redemption in the aid of us. Through us he could make peace with his mistakes and maybe find atonement and even might look to us as his successor and someone to impart wisdom too now that he is within the mists? Jora would just be more of the same, blah-blah hero who is here to save the day. I like the idea of Asgeir being saddened and asking about his people, concerned with the world of tyria. To your point of the PC being blessed? No they aren't. They just made them all useable forms so no one would complain when they picked one and got hard locked, which is why wolf also only refers to your chosen spirit in Bjora when you speak with him. Gameplay does not equate to lore or cannon as PLENTY of liberties have been taken, and if the norn equated to their lore they would be WAY cooler than they are in the representation they get in game.

Jora was a strong warrior, one of the best I reckon outside of her society though Id wager she wasn't "The best" norn warrior. To be perfectly honest norn are individualistic and the only real racist ones are the svanir, and even they aren't all that bad when compared to the charr or even the humans themselves. Plus the spirits Asgeir was blessed by were the strongest, and while jora was blessed by bear I just don't see her being a worthwhile choice as he interactions would be bland. It would be much like how kalla interacts with us, the dialogue would be some kinda meh trash when we could get something more emotional and even encouraging.

Asgeir to human pc: "You're strong human. Don't let your strength make you arrogant, for that is the first failure of every warrior."

Human PC To Asgeir: "Ill not let myself fall into that trap, Ill do what must be done."

As for your assesment of the two id say you sound like you just want a woman. Id wager if it wasn't a norn but was still female you'd be content and im looking at it from a storytelling perspective. Frostfang by the way was NEVER confirmed to be weaker than the great-destroyer anywhere in the lore, and I also said he fought drakkar as well I believe in a 3 v1. He pushed one off, killed one and damaged jormag. Jora NEVER fought an elder dragon, let alone pushed herself until her body broke and she was near death. Jormag spared Asgeir but I do believe he took its tooth from its face as the final blow he could muster in his bodies weakened state. Again he lied to keep his people from blindly rushing to their deaths and he had hoped it would give them time to find a way. Because at the end of the day back then with one race taking on an elder Im not sure they would of won; Thats like saying that the charr alone could take on Kralk, mordremoth or Zaithan.. If they could why didn't they? The dragons are stronger than the six, so much so that the six ran away. So I feel like Asgeir even doing damage to where Jormag told him to take his prize and go, was proof enough of his might and his ability to live with himself after he lied to keep his people safe was more than enough to prove his courage.

Takes a braver man to do what must be done for his people, than one who seeks praise and admiration. He felt shame and from the reading you can do of him he seems like he died with regrets, having him come back to finish what he started and settle old grudges would be sick. I love jora, I just don't feel like we need another pure-hero character. We already have too many good guys and not enough morally grey/evil beings to channel. And as for her being a carbon copy of warrior? Well I mean look at shiro as it stands after his last round of changes. He is a hollow husk of a legend, with a lame kit and honestly feels like thief with no stealth and more mobility/attempt at bruiser play. Do you honestly believe that Jora would get a good kit, and bring in good gameplay with how they handled glint and kalla as well the other legends? The other legends were bosses from the previous games they could of just translated their kits and made them scale and function for guild wars 2's combat but they didn't. I have little faith they would come up with anything interesting for jora. If they however let us change into the bear spirit like the norn did in guild wars 1 that'd be sick, as the current shapeshifting is trash and is freaking the most dissapointing part of this game for me. (Needs a revamp)

To how Asgeir could be different?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1197516

That forum post goes into the kind of kit I'd like to see for him. I feel like that would make him unique and Jora would just get some generic, copy paste of something from guild wars 1 without it being given much depth. Mainly because at this stage? I don't trust A-net to be as innovative with our legends going forward.

I first like to start by addressing what been pissing me off the most. The only person that has been enthralled by whats between someone's legs so far within this conversation is you. You have on multiple occasion made this logic jump that because I want Jora I am somehow a feminist and that a legend being female is at all relevant. The topic is about WHAT

NORN

LEGENDS I'd like to see on a class that deals with characters with ESTABLISHED in LORE. If it weren't norn I would easily say Archemorus or St.Viktor unless you can some how make a logic jump thats some how being sexist, but so far you've proven yourself to be quiet adept at those jumps. Your rant only shows your basis.

To Asgeir in both of your posts with regard to the story it should not make him a legend. Rather if going with your route they should be Living world updates or along those lines. Revenant Legends are those who have stories that have ended which is why i believe that Jora would make a good legend. Jora would tell us about the past and reveal small nuggets of lore about life in the far shiverpeaks and fighting Jormag before Asgeir time. Remember Hoelbrak wasnt founded in those times so there is a lot of lore to be had there.

Additionally your reasoning that Asgeir somehow knew best and that was good leadership is a kin to saying that Scarlet Briar knew best. One person should not be deciding the fate of an entire race ESPECIALLY USING DECEIT. Jormag has already show its prowess in manipulating people with us in the living story and this is likely what happened to Asgeir.

Jora and svanir were both cowards as well, they allowed the charr to take their anscestral home? They ran. And Jora NEEDED the help of humans and others to take svanir, my character in guildwars 2 could solo svanir blindfolded. So By your logic she is unfit to be a legend because we, the player currently can out do her and run circles around her. Cannonically it was the heroes of tyria which is explicitly humans who kill the great destroyer while the norn, dwarves, charr and asuran golems hold of the destroyers so she had no part in that unless that portion of the story has change. (Yes I know we could of brought her with, but no where in the story does it actually say she was there for its killing outside of holding off reinforcements.) Also she couldn't solo a "Single" icebrood in svanir and my norn makes short work of them regularly, we even slew drakkar and a claw of jormag so in retro-spect we are the ones who are OP.

If we go based strictly off your logic there is no one in tyria of any caliber who should be a legend, because we can take them down and they all failed. Every single person outside of us has failed and thus means they are not legend material correct? Jora failed to do things the norn way, she failed at being a norn and she failed at managing to fix the issues her brother caused without help. Shiro failed at literally everything he attempted, Ventari failed in making the sylvari peaceful as the nightmare court existed directly because of his interference. So I mean its like splitting hairs, shiro was a coward because he wanted to live and killed his leader off of rumors and lies and then proceeded to use his powers the wrong way. Mallyx hid within the realm of torment and didn't desire to face us so we had to go to him and raid his area, so as such he is a coward because he didn't wana just die to the PC. Ventari was a coward because he abandoned his people in favor of hanging with humans, their sworn enemy and planted a peace tree with the misbegotten race.

Out of all of them Id think Jalis and Kalla and maybe Glint were and are the only ones legendary by your standards. They didn't run and they didn't waver, so therefor remove everyone who is a coward and add no one else because thats your narrative. See my point? The legend is subjective and the point of view is also subjective, where you see a coward in Asgeir I see someone who knew full well at the time that they couldn't kill the dragon. So he set it up so that when his race was ready they'd be able to go, once the tooth was cracked albeit it was vauge but Im assuming thats the point. I don't believe Jora ever once fought jormag as I think it happened after her time, as again its never stated that she fought anything related to jormag other than svanir. (Unless changed.) The reason I think this is because you're so pin-point focused on jora where I see they could bring her in from the mists as someone we talk too, like actually sit down and have a conversation with. The reason im so enamored with my legend and who they are and why they are is because Im stuck with them. I get to listen to them prattle on and I get tid-bits of lore and get to see how they react to the different races which is pretty cool. There is more than just "Derp, I channel fing and go swish, swish." Plus again Kit wise I can't see what they could do with jora that both respects the character AND gives us something interesting to play with..

If they could give her something unique like becoming the bear and being an absolute monster with transforming skills that change based on which form you're in that also effects other legends then sure. But both glint and kalla both suffer from being Extremely simplistic and basic compared to the other E-specs and honestly a bit underwhelming, and I don't want them to butcher her character and give us some kit that makes literally no sense for her to use. Im afraid they will butcher her where if Asgeir it wouldn't really matter due to the fact that we haven't met him yet. Which means they could do anything with him and it would be fine, with jora if they don't let me have the jora I know from the lore and a good kit ill be upset. Like I dislike shiro's kit because while it makes sense I guess, I feel like his kit from guild wars 1 woulda been fine with some minor upgrades and changes but rather they did a completely different thing. Im not trying to discount, or dismiss your point im just trying to push the idea that I don't trust A-net not to fuck up jora or asgeir even.. But I want a norn legend so sacrifices must be made and Id like for them to have the freedom to not be constrained by what was due to past F-ups..

I also doubt we will see a norn legend. I think once the saga is done and we have our charr adventure, norn will be pushed aside and ignored until the end of tyria. As for your scarlet point they are hardly the same. She was driven mad by mordremoth liquefying her brain and making her its pawn, Asgeir legitamentally didn't have faith his people could kill jormag. Takes a really big man to admit he can't do it, and that his people can't either and he couldn't bare to see anymore death as I doubt norn would even exist if he hadn't of stopped the bloodshed. So again think what you will but without him I doubt we'd have playable norn at all.