Suggestion: Remove Elite Specs from WvW

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Bubbaworks.6023 said:

• Creating a whole bunch of sharp visual effects which might look nice on their own or with a small group, but end up turning the ground in a zerg fight into an epileptic puddle that lags the game.

That's an issue with the design of the game, not elite specs. ANET absolutely needs to address this, but the solution isn't to just remove content (elite specs) from the game.

@Bubbaworks.6023 said:

• Making entire classes irrelevant (Scrapper stealth taking over the role mesmer has had for years)

Scrapper isn't relevant only because of sneak gyro anymore than Mesmer is only relevant because of mass invis or veil. That's oversimplification to an extreme. Both professions have roles to play in WvW, and I've frequently seen both run in the same group.

@Bubbaworks.6023 said:

• Being basically a pure upgrade from base classes rather than an option to provide different types of gameplay

That is a fallacy for an overwhelming number of elite specs. Some arguments exist that some elites don't have sufficient drawbacks, etc etc, but to say that elite specs are pure upgrades over core specs is factually inaccurate.

@Bubbaworks.6023 said:

• Creating a sharp barrier to entry for newer players who seem completely outmatched if they don't have X elite specialization

Core Ranger, Core Thief, Core Warrior, Core Necro and Core Guard all remain competitive in WvW and PvP. It's a null argument in any case, since not having access to expansions puts the characters at a distinct disadvantage beyond elite specs.

Without Heart of Thorns a player has no access to Marauder, Viper, Trailblazer or Minstrel stat combinations.Without Path of Fire, a player has no access to a Warclawetc.

If a player is at a disadvantage for not buying the expansions, the solution of course is to get them to buy the expansions...which puts $$$ in ANET's pocket, which is the whole point in them running this game.

@Bubbaworks.6023 said:

• Contributing heavily to power creep which has been a major issue for GW2 and WvW for a long time

And there was a major nerfpocalypse a few months back, as ANET tries to remedy this. I maintain they aren't done, and we're only in Phase 1 or 2, or Phase Orange, whatever, but ANET has expressed intention to rollback that power creep in competitive modes and is doing so. Whether a player agrees with how they are doing it, or if they are successful or not, is a different issue.

I'm not opposed to having a WvW week event - core specs only, as I think that would be a fun deviation from the norm, but to talk about permanently removing elite specs from WvW as if it were something that existed in the realm of possibility is just silly.

[Farout.8207]

The problem with removing elite specs from WvW is I paid for them. I don't really PVE so the only reason for me to buy the two expacs was for the elites. If they removed them from WvW I'd be expecting a refund for both HoT and PoF. I'd be ok with a week long event but I'd be totally pissed if they removed content that I paid for.

[ArchonWing.9480]

In the past this might have been so, but there are still viable core classes (warrior,. ranger, necro, thief) that have their use. Honestly, it's just core engi that's just there. Granted the zerg meta is expansion classes but this is blamed mostly on firebrand and scourge.

All of this doesn't do anything. The way to make Chrono viable in zergs again would be to undelete them, not delete everyone else.

Also, let's be real. While would they want to cater to players that aren't going to buy their next product?

[KrHome.1920]

Removing the content everybody plays is surely a great idea to help the game.

If at all you remove content that nobody plays.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@"Bubbaworks.6023" said:Mini Rant:Please try and keep this post constructive and not immediately dismiss this idea. I've seen a lot of responses from forum regulars basically be "yOu'Re sTupId" "what a dumb idea har har" "oh there's ONE issue with your idea so the entire idea is bad" and some of these posts don't even have proper grammar. It really drags on an otherwise good thread and makes players like me who want to offer suggestions and ideas want to ram our heads into a wall. Okay, rant over. Here goes.

Problems with Elite Specs:Currently elite specializations impact the WvW game mode negatively in many ways, including the following:

• Creating a whole bunch of sharp visual effects which might look nice on their own or with a small group, but end up turning the ground in a zerg fight into an epileptic puddle that lags the game.
• Making entire classes irrelevant (Scrapper stealth taking over the role mesmer has had for years)
• Being basically a pure upgrade from base classes rather than an option to provide different types of gameplay
• Creating a sharp barrier to entry for newer players who seem completely outmatched if they don't have X elite specialization
• Contributing heavily to power creep which has been a major issue for GW2 and WvW for a long time

I'm sure there's more downsides than just this but those are a good start. ^

Suggestions:My suggestion would be the following:

1. Plan another WvW Week where the major rule change is no elite specializations. Let the players, not just the forum warriors, react to this idea and see if it's viable or an improvement from where we are now.
2. Hold some kind of poll that will let players decide whether a major change like this should happen. This is not the essence of the idea but I believe players would appreciate a greater role in deciding whether new changes happen or not.
3. If the idea stands, plan on making this a permanent change to WvW BEFORE the release of the next expansion. Be clear with WvW players that they will not need to purchase the new expansion to be competitive in WvW, but that your expansion will offer other amenities that will entice them to purchase the expansion.

I would appreciate some constructive feedback on this. Thanks for reading, cheers

WvW was stale years ago. Without changes to the game mode via new maps and/or mechanics the only things that change are new ways to play via the interactions of classes. Since we have no way to gain new classes outside of elite specs we would lose even more players to staleness of the game mode. So for your solution to work they would need to give us new classes.

On balance, whenever you have a game that has classes with differing skills you will run into issues with balance. The best you can do is make sure that some counter others and that are all interesting and most importantly fun to play. If you go the route of just nerfing it to the point that none are fun to play you will kill your own game. I would prefer that they went the route that all classes had a number of good builds to them with synergy versus the route of just everything is a noodle.

As far as supporting expansions, no if people choose to not buy an expansion there is no reason others that will shouldn't have access to new elites. That's one of the main selling points to an expansion. That would be counter-intuitive not to expect new elites that could be played in WvW. There is no reason to penalize paying customers to prevent non-paying ones to have to adapt their play style since they don't know how the new classes play.

As far as changes, we don't get changes now and you want to have people decide on ones that don't exist yet. What's worse you are expecting people to decide on theory changes when they don't have any information on that potential change? I don't understand the logic here at all.

Power creep is nothing new and has a direct line of descendants. Stacking is the root of the issue. Boon share is then in line which leads to things being unkillable which leads to more power and condi to counter the tankiness. On top of that is the issue of zerk for life mentality and what happens when someone runs a tankier build. So with or without elites there were issues because you can have 50 people occupy the same spot in space but you can't hit all 50 at the same time. While that imbalance in place you won't be able to resolve all the rest. So no, please don't blame elites there was issues with balance well before we had the first elites even out. If anything you can blame enthusiasm since new elites might bring new mechanics that a dev might not have planned could be combined with something else and its greater than the sum of its parts. Never underestimate the theory crafters that are always looking for something new to build and play.

I won't fault call outs to lag outside of the point that is one of the reasons we don't have counters to the root issue of stacking since its been know to add to latency. But potentially removing the cap on AOE skills would also potentially remove much of the reason for power-creep since it would counter issues with boon sharing and stacking.