Necromancer could really do with a unique condition.

[Fueki.4753]

@"Taril.8619" said:Chrono + Firebrand provide Quickness.Chrono + Renegade provide Alacrity.Renegade also provides Life Siphon in an area with Soulcleave's Summit.By virtue of multiple classes having access to these, none of them are unique.

Rangers have Frost Spirit which provides 5% damage increase. They also have Spotter aura providing 100 Precision.Warrior's bring Banner of Strength for 100 Power + Condition damage and Banner of Discipline for 100 Precision and Ferocity. They can also use Empower Allies aura to provide further 100 Power.If we count these kinds of traits, Necromancer already has a unique "buff": Death's Carapace

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Fueki.4753" said:Which other profession has a unique boon or condition?

Some like to think that "slow" is the unique condition of the chronomancer. But whenever ANet add something new they like to spread it to more than a single profession. What the OP want is poorly worded, maybe even poorly conceptualized in his own mind. What he want is something that give the necromancer a competitive edge in instanced content against defiant foes.

Personally I don't think that a "unique" condition will do the job, nor do I think that it would be good for the game. The necromancer already have an "unique" debuffing tool: "boon conversion". Making this tool work against defiant foes would be a safer option that adding new biohazard in the game.

[Taril.8619]

@Dadnir.5038 said:What the OP want is poorly worded, maybe even poorly conceptualized in his own mind. What he want is something that give the necromancer a competitive edge in instanced content against defiant foes.

In what way is it poorly conceptualized?

A unique condition. Something that is not part of the normal pool of conditions (Which are either damage, Vulnerability or useless in PvE)

@Dadnir.5038 said:Personally I don't think that a "unique" condition will do the job, nor do I think that it would be good for the game. The necromancer already have an "unique" debuffing tool: "boon conversion". Making this tool work against defiant foes would be a safer option that adding new biohazard in the game.

Wait, you think that making Boon Conversion (Thus, 1) Adding a bunch of boons to PvE to be converted and 2) Making existing conditions that are currently worthless actually mean anything against defiant foes) is a safer option than adding in a unique, isolated, completely tunable condition to the game?

Really?

In what way is that even remotely true even on a conceptual level?

Defiance exists almost completely as a result of how ridiculous current conditions would be versus bosses, especially in a 10 player environment where you can achieve high uptimes.

Boon Conversion only generates these existing conditions and a sometimes a few damaging conditions with exception of Scourge which converts directly into Torment.

Boon Conversion in PvE would also be limited by other classes whom can boon rip as well (Notably, Power Chronos who's auto attacks and clone auto attacks and Phantasmal Disenchanters boon rip passively as they do their rotations) not to mention have adverse affects on any classes that benefit from boonless targets and creating a situation where there is now competition for who can rip/corrupt boons first to get the benefits it provides (Not just on Necro's, but also Spellbreakers. Also if any Thieves run Trickery and Bountiful Theft)

While a unique condition can be uniquely tuned to a PvE environment and have very controlled effects since you only need to consider the impact that the condition itself presents (While Boon Conversion needs to consider the impact of boons being applied to bosses in PvE, the impact of various classes boon rip capabilities and the impact of the condition(s) that the boons are converted into)

[Fueki.4753]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Some like to think that "slow" is the unique condition of the chronomancer.Mesmer as a whole doesn't even have half of the profession skills applying slow.How'd anyone think it's unique to Chronomancer?

[Dadnir.5038]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Some like to think that "slow" is the unique condition of the chronomancer.Mesmer as a whole doesn't even have half of the profession skills applying slow.How'd anyone think it's unique to Chronomancer?

If you've read up to there you could have read a few more sentences. "Slow" was sold as the chronomancer's condition, yet it's been spread to core and to other professions.There is no such thing as a "unique condition".

[Dadnir.5038]

@Taril.8619 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:What the OP want is poorly worded, maybe even poorly conceptualized in his own mind. What he want is something that give the necromancer a competitive edge in instanced content against defiant foes.

In what way is it poorly conceptualized?

A unique condition. Something that is not part of the normal pool of conditions (Which are either damage, Vulnerability or useless in PvE)

Signet of vampirism already do that with it's active, you know the debuff called vampiric mark. Blood bond even add some more on top of that. If you want an "aura", ANet gave the necromancer vampiric presence.

Yes it's crap! Yes it's unsatisfying! Yes it's of no use to gain an edge of competitivity against defiant foes! But that's what ANet gave to the necromancer when they were asked for a "unique condition". This is the reality, we already have what you ask, they already gave it, and more of that won't do any good to the necromancer.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Personally I don't think that a "unique" condition will do the job, nor do I think that it would be good for the game. The necromancer already have an "unique" debuffing tool: "boon conversion". Making this tool work against defiant foes would be a safer option that adding new biohazard in the game.

Wait, you think that making Boon Conversion (Thus, 1) Adding a bunch of boons to PvE to be converted and 2) Making existing conditions that are currently worthless actually mean anything against defiant foes) is a safer option than adding in a unique, isolated, completely tunable condition to the game?

Really?

In what way is that even remotely true even on a conceptual level?

Defiance exists almost completely as a result of how ridiculous current conditions would be versus bosses, especially in a 10 player environment where you can achieve high uptimes.

Boon Conversion only generates these existing conditions and a sometimes a few damaging conditions with exception of Scourge which converts directly into Torment.

Boon Conversion in PvE would also be limited by other classes whom can boon rip as well (Notably, Power Chronos who's auto attacks and clone auto attacks and Phantasmal Disenchanters boon rip passively as they do their rotations) not to mention have adverse affects on any classes that benefit from boonless targets and creating a situation where there is now competition for who can rip/corrupt boons first to get the benefits it provides (Not just on Necro's, but also Spellbreakers. Also if any Thieves run Trickery and Bountiful Theft)

While a unique condition can be uniquely tuned to a PvE environment and have very controlled effects since you only need to consider the impact that the condition itself presents (While Boon Conversion needs to consider the impact of boons being applied to bosses in PvE, the impact of various classes boon rip capabilities and the impact of the condition(s) that the boons are converted into)

What you ask for is bound to have an impact on PvP/WvW which make it a biohazard. I'd rather see ANet make small step and adapt the necromancer's tool to the defiance mechanism than see them introduce a condition for PvE purpose and then nerf the necromancer to the ground because the condition impact PvP/WvW. I'm sick of ANet doing this! We've seen ANet's devs doing that for 8 years already, can't we just fix what need fix already instead of adding powercreep mindlessly?

Defiance, this god forsaken mechanism, emulate stability, vigor and resistance. It's just a pain to see that boon hate don't work on this mechanism, it is effectively unfair. And for professions like the necromancer that heavily rely on Boon hate, it's just a bane. I'm not saying that ANet need to add more boon in PvE (it would be thoughtless and stupid), I'm saying that ANet should start to understand that mechanisms that emulate boons need to be impacted by boon hate (and not just for the small breakbar window!). Half of the reason the necromancer struggle in end game PvE is due to this mechanism, if you add another condition to the necromancer kit to "compensate" for defiance you'll just break things elsewhere (however weak you make them there. Because it's a given that PvP/WvW player would end up asking for this condition to be strong in their gamemode as well).

[Taril.8619]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Signet of vampirism already do that with it's active, you know the debuff called vampiric mark. Blood bond even add some more on top of that. If you want an "aura", ANet gave the necromancer vampiric presence.

Yes it's kitten! Yes it's unsatisfying! Yes it's of no use to gain an edge of competitivity against defiant foes! But that's what ANet gave to the necromancer when they were asked for a "unique condition". This is the reality, we already have what you ask, they already gave it, and more of that won't do any good to the necromancer.

Except, this Signet of Vampirism is not what is being suggested. Since, it does nothing to address any of the concerns that my concept looks to address.

@Dadnir.5038 said:What you ask for is bound to have an impact on PvP/WvW which make it a biohazard.

Gee, if only competitive splits existed in the game...

OH WAIT.

If only condi cleanse existed in the game...

OH WAIT.

If only something could be tuned to affect only Defiant foes...

OH WAIT.

If only such a condition was applied by skills that are laughably bad in PvP/WvW to make its presence not nearly have as much impact...

OH WAIT.

I'd rather see ANet make small step and adapt the necromancer's tool to the defiance mechanism than see them introduce a condition for PvE purpose and then nerf the necromancer to the ground because the condition impact PvP/WvW. I'm sick of ANet doing this! We've seen ANet's devs doing that for 8 years already, can't we just fix what need fix already instead of adding powercreep mindlessly?

Are you seriously so delusional that you think that a PvE specific condition that can be tuned to only function against enemies with Defiance (Just like all the "Interrupt" skills/traits/effects which specifically function differently against Defiant foes) will cause Necromancer to be nerfed to the ground.

While thinking that allowing Necro to apply Chill/Cripple/Blind/Weakness/Immobilize/Fear with actual effects against Defiant foes WON'T cause Necro to get compeltely and totally destroyed?

@Dadnir.5038 said:Defiance, this god forsaken mechanism, emulate stability, vigor and resistance. It's just a pain to see that boon hate don't work on this mechanism, it is effectively unfair. And for professions like the necromancer that heavily rely on Boon hate, it's just a bane. I'm not saying that ANet need to add more boon in PvE (it would be thoughtless and stupid), I'm saying that ANet should start to understand that mechanisms that emulate boons need to be impacted by boon hate (and not just for the small breakbar window!).

Except, in all possible situations, bypassing the mechanic using the very things the mechanic exists for is totally broken.

It's not just boon hate that is the problem with Necro and this mechanic, it's also the fact that conditions which is Necro's "Support" instead of Boonshare are useless against Defiant foes.

If you allow Boon Hate to work against Defiant foes... What? Do you just let Boon Rip remove Defiance? Well then Necro is still SoL because lulMesmer = perma-removal of Defiance because 0 cooldown auto attacks with Sword removes boons...

If you allow Boon Corrupt to work against Defiant foes... You get a bunch of useless conditions on the boss which Necro already applies in spades with basically everything in its kit.

If you let those conditions function on Defiant foes... PvE in its entirety gets broken and consequently, and those conditions get destroyed, completely annihilating Necro from the game (In PvE, PvP and WvW) as well as completely destroying all remaining PvP/WvW balance.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Because it's a given that PvP/WvW player would end up asking for this condition to be strong in their gamemode as well.

Tell them to fuck off then. Just like how PvE players get told when they ask for Boonshare on Necro for PvE.

It's been 8 years of PvE Necro's asking for party support via boons because of the Defiance mechanic. Why should they suddenly cater to the PvP/WvW crowd when they start asking for a specific condition that will only really be useful in situations where it's Zerg vs 1 guy? Especially given the giant middle finger ANet gave to WvW Necro's in the latest patch by gutting Scourge's Sand Shades.

[Obtena.7952]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The TLDR ... what are you trying to fix?

Necromancer's lack of PvE team support due to the utter uselessness of most non-damaging Conditions against targets with Defiance.

Honestly, I don't think a unique condition would be a good way to do that. It's complicated because there are other game modes to consider and it's a low profile feature because it would be unique (see how Marks have been treated)

Frankly, I think the best work around to that problem is simply a trait that adds offensive value to the team that already works within the game's existing mechanics, like a team-wide life siphon ability as an example.

[Kodama.6453]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The TLDR ... what are you trying to fix?

Necromancer's lack of PvE team support due to the utter uselessness of most non-damaging Conditions against targets with Defiance.

Honestly, I don't think a unique condition would be a good way to do that. It's complicated because there are other game modes to consider and it's a low profile feature because it would be unique (see how Marks have been treated)

Frankly, I think the best work around to that problem is simply a trait that adds offensive value to the team that already works within the game's existing mechanics, like a team-wide life siphon ability as an example.

Necromancer already has team wide life siphon, tho....

1. Vampiric presence
2. Signet of vampirism

Both didn't really improve necromancer's desirability. Why you think another one would do this?

[Anchoku.8142]

More ways to generate auras and finish some of the fields Necro drops everywhere interests me more than unique conditions. There is much potential for more interesting play that I feel is left on the table by the developers.

[Taril.8619]

@Anchoku.8142 said:More ways to generate auras and finish some of the fields Necro drops everywhere interests me more than unique conditions. There is much potential for more interesting play that I feel is left on the table by the developers.

Auras suck though. Especially in PvE, given that they only do anything when you're being attacked and most of their benefits are minor defensive ones.

Meanwhile combo finishers, especially ones in Dark Fields, also suck (Because more blind is exactly what Necro needs in PvE...). With really the only notable PvE combo field effects being ones that just deal damage (I.e. Proj/Whirl in Fire Field) or provide boons (I.e. Blast finisher in Fire Field)... Basically, there's a reason why stacking fire fields is the only combo field strat.

It'd be nice for combo fields and especially Dark fields to be good, but it would require a significant rebalancing of them entirely (I.e. Availability, rate at which they can be proc'd, the ability to stack up like a million fields and proc them all, their effects...)

[Obtena.7952]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The TLDR ... what are you trying to fix?

Necromancer's lack of PvE team support due to the utter uselessness of most non-damaging Conditions against targets with Defiance.

Honestly, I don't think a unique condition would be a good way to do that. It's complicated because there are other game modes to consider and it's a low profile feature because it would be unique (see how Marks have been treated)

Frankly, I think the best work around to that problem is simply a trait that adds offensive value to the team that already works within the game's existing mechanics, like a team-wide life siphon ability as an example.

Necromancer already has team wide life siphon, tho....

1. Vampiric presence
2. Signet of vampirism

Both didn't really improve necromancer's desirability. Why you think another one would do this?

It simply depends on how they are designed. Making those traits appealing as offensive buffs to a team could be just a matter of adjusting numbers. The concept itself is sound. The way those particular traits are designed should not lead anyone to think life siphons couldn't be made into an offensive team tool that would make Necro's desirable in team. Anyways, I'm not pushing for any specific or particular implementation here ... I'm simply pointing out a path that is more likely than a unique condition IMO.

[Anchoku.8142]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:More ways to generate auras and finish some of the fields Necro drops everywhere interests me more than unique conditions. There is much potential for more interesting play that I feel is left on the table by the developers.

Auras suck though. Especially in PvE, given that they only do anything when you're being attacked and most of their benefits are minor defensive ones.

Meanwhile combo finishers, especially ones in Dark Fields, also suck (Because more blind is exactly what Necro needs in PvE...). With really the only notable PvE combo field effects being ones that just deal damage (I.e. Proj/Whirl in Fire Field) or provide boons (I.e. Blast finisher in Fire Field)... Basically, there's a reason why stacking fire fields is the only combo field strat.

It'd be nice for combo fields and especially Dark fields to be good, but it would require a significant rebalancing of them entirely (I.e. Availability, rate at which they can be proc'd, the ability to stack up like a million fields and proc them all, their effects...)

Agree the current combination system is half-baked. For a game mechanic that requires attention, it is pretty lame.