auto attack should be removed from downed state for pvp and WvW

ledernierrempart.6871 · August 5, 2020

so 1v2 would be more fair.some builds like necro power or condi druide can deal very high dps, sometimes even more than while alive because your target can't really do much about you hitting them especially while trying to finish you. this makes 1v2 encounters in WvW really problematic because finishing a downed enemy while another one is alive, hitting you, is already hard enough (and you may have already lost most cd and health trying to down that player) but if you add to that the CC and high dps of some downed class....

same goes for 2v2 pvp and the impossible feat of winning a 1v2.

little shout out for condi players, when you down a player and all the condi on them magically dissapear...

i remember the no downed state event in WvW, and it was the most fun i had in WvW ever. but i understand why this downed mechanic exist. but it should only be there so you can come back if someone helps you, not suddenly be an immovable hp bag with high dps.

how many times have i downed a player while being down myself as a ranger and then killed him because of pet regen...if you want a healthier pvp/WvW (especially for roaming players) nerf that downed state!

KrHome.1920 · August 6, 2020

Your argumentation is not well thought out. Your autoattack suggestion is dumb - seriously!

GW2 has an asymmetric class design. That's part of the rock paper scissors balancing.

A necro has a strong autoattack in downstate, but can not deny a safe stomp, while e.g. a thief can. If you have a stability/block/invulnerability source ready after you downed a necro, then he can not stop you from finishing him. The thief can't deal as much damage in downstate, but can deny the safe stomp and get a second chance for a rez. So when you want to win a 1v2 against a necro comp at any cost, then you should keep that in mind and safe a skill for that safe stomp.

And now don't tell me that you can't safe it, because it's a 1v2 and you have to burn your defensive cooldowns... yeah... who would have thought that this might happen in a 1v2.

but i understand why this downed mechanic existI actually don't. But I don't like it for other reasons than you. It's a stupid mechanic, that rewards numbers (fast/instant rez) instead of skill. And this is more of a problem in wvw and not pvp.

Kodama.6453 · August 6, 2020

@KrHome.1920 said:Your argumentation is not well thought out. Your autoattack suggestion is dumb - seriously!
GW2 has an asymmetric class design. That's part of the rock paper scissors balancing.
A necro has a strong autoattack in downstate, but can not deny a safe stomp, while e.g. a thief can. If you have a stability/block/invulnerability source ready after you downed a necro, then he can not stop you from finishing him. The thief can't deal as much damage in downstate, but can deny the safe stomp and get a second chance for a rez. So when you want to win a 1v2 against a necro comp at any cost, then you should keep that in mind and safe a skill for that safe stomp.
And now don't tell me that you can't safe it, because it's a 1v2 and you have to burn your defensive cooldowns... yeah... who would have thought that this might happen in a 1v2.
but i understand why this downed mechanic existI actually don't. But I don't like it for other reasons than you. It's a stupid mechanic, that rewards numbers (fast/instant rez) instead of skill. And this is more of a problem in wvw and not pvp.

Yes, GW2 has an asymmetric class design and differences about their downstates are to be expected.However, I don't think that the different downstates are fairly balanced currently.

Necromancer has a really powerful downstate, you say that is because they can't stop a safe stomp from happening. But there are other classes which can't prevent this either, while not having such a powerful auto attack in downstate: engineer, warrior

Avatar.3568 · August 6, 2020

@Kodama.6453 said:
@KrHome.1920 said:Your argumentation is not well thought out. Your autoattack suggestion is dumb - seriously!
GW2 has an asymmetric class design. That's part of the rock paper scissors balancing.
A necro has a strong autoattack in downstate, but can not deny a safe stomp, while e.g. a thief can. If you have a stability/block/invulnerability source ready after you downed a necro, then he can not stop you from finishing him. The thief can't deal as much damage in downstate, but can deny the safe stomp and get a second chance for a rez. So when you want to win a 1v2 against a necro comp at any cost, then you should keep that in mind and safe a skill for that safe stomp.
And now don't tell me that you can't safe it, because it's a 1v2 and you have to burn your defensive cooldowns... yeah... who would have thought that this might happen in a 1v2.
but i understand why this downed mechanic existI actually don't. But I don't like it for other reasons than you. It's a stupid mechanic, that rewards numbers (fast/instant rez) instead of skill. And this is more of a problem in wvw and not pvp.

Yes, GW2 has an asymmetric class design and differences about their downstates are to be expected.However, I don't think that the different downstates are fairly balanced currently.

Necromancer has a really powerful downstate, you say that is because they can't stop a safe stomp from happening. But there are other classes which can't prevent this either, while not having such a powerful auto attack in downstate: engineer, warrior

Engi has 2 stuns in downstate, warrior has a second chance, ranger has pet revive, Rev has slow, guard has heal field, all of them have maybe not a strong auto attack but strong 3 ability

Kodama.6453 · August 6, 2020

@Avatar.3568 said:
@Kodama.6453 said:
@KrHome.1920 said:Your argumentation is not well thought out. Your autoattack suggestion is dumb - seriously!
GW2 has an asymmetric class design. That's part of the rock paper scissors balancing.
A necro has a strong autoattack in downstate, but can not deny a safe stomp, while e.g. a thief can. If you have a stability/block/invulnerability source ready after you downed a necro, then he can not stop you from finishing him. The thief can't deal as much damage in downstate, but can deny the safe stomp and get a second chance for a rez. So when you want to win a 1v2 against a necro comp at any cost, then you should keep that in mind and safe a skill for that safe stomp.
And now don't tell me that you can't safe it, because it's a 1v2 and you have to burn your defensive cooldowns... yeah... who would have thought that this might happen in a 1v2.
but i understand why this downed mechanic existI actually don't. But I don't like it for other reasons than you. It's a stupid mechanic, that rewards numbers (fast/instant rez) instead of skill. And this is more of a problem in wvw and not pvp.

Yes, GW2 has an asymmetric class design and differences about their downstates are to be expected.However, I don't think that the different downstates are fairly balanced currently.

Necromancer has a really powerful downstate, you say that is because they can't stop a safe stomp from happening. But there are other classes which can't prevent this either, while not having such a powerful auto attack in downstate: engineer, warrior

Engi has 2 stuns in downstate, warrior has a second chance, ranger has pet revive, Rev has slow, guard has heal field, all of them have maybe not a strong auto attack but strong 3 ability

If your enemy just safe stomps you right when you are in downstate, then your third ability doesn't matter at all simply because it is on a cooldown at the beginning.Necromancer feels like it just has a way more powerful downstate in general compared to some other classes. The amount of damage a necromancer can still deal while downed is kinda crazy, especially since it is also healing from it.

ledernierrempart.6871 · August 6, 2020

@KrHome.1920 said:Your argumentation is not well thought out. Your autoattack suggestion is dumb - seriously!
GW2 has an asymmetric class design. That's part of the rock paper scissors balancing.
A necro has a strong autoattack in downstate, but can not deny a safe stomp, while e.g. a thief can. If you have a stability/block/invulnerability source ready after you downed a necro, then he can not stop you from finishing him. The thief can't deal as much damage in downstate, but can deny the safe stomp and get a second chance for a rez. So when you want to win a 1v2 against a necro comp at any cost, then you should keep that in mind and safe a skill for that safe stomp.
And now don't tell me that you can't safe it, because it's a 1v2 and you have to burn your defensive cooldowns... yeah... who would have thought that this might happen in a 1v2.
but i understand why this downed mechanic existI actually don't. But I don't like it for other reasons than you. It's a stupid mechanic, that rewards numbers (fast/instant rez) instead of skill. And this is more of a problem in wvw and not pvp.

the downstate exist for more friendly pve and the ability to help mates in danger in pvp/wvw. it is an incentive for people to stick together and help each other.but the problem is that, while it is a good thing in pve, it is horrible in pvp/wvw.you find my argumentation poor but yours is just a glimpse of mine and it seems that you even agree with me on the conclusion.right now downed state punish players who want to try 1v2. sometimes you have a hard fight and need to use all your skills to down someone while outnumbered. is your effort recompensed? NO. because you can't finish the downed guy. even in 1v1 situation i died to a stupid downed necro because i already had little hp and couldn't avoid its autoattack.Loosing a won fight becasue the target deall too much damage while downed is stupid. i am for a few signature skills with high CD with a cc or mobility skill, but not for the downed one to be able to DPS hard even when he should be at deaths door.

my deletion of autoattack while in downstate is far from dumb as you say. it is the compromise between having a downed state and no downed state (which i would prefer). of course downed state skills should get a rework like necro poison well could heal the necro (to replace the heal on autoattack), the thief invisibility should poison foes around it (to replace the special attack while being stealthed), engi grab could apply chill (or its explosion, to replace the chill on auto) etc...

bad design and balance are bad design and balance. even if you can have a counter to it.

Tayga.3192 · August 7, 2020

@Avatar.3568 said:Rev has slow,

Remember when you couldn't stomp revenants because slow affected stomping?

Avatar.3568 · August 7, 2020

@Tayga.3192 said:
@Avatar.3568 said:Rev has slow,

Remember when you couldn't stomp revenants because slow affected stomping?

Good times, because we had speed stomp too

Black Storm.6974 · August 7, 2020

Power Necromancer downed damage is far far lower than the damage it can do while alive. Also, Necromancer don’t have anything powerful for saving his life in downed state.

I can’t see any value in the change you are proposing. You just want a mechanic of the GW2 combat system to be taken away because you don’t like it.

ledernierrempart.6871 · August 7, 2020

@Black Storm.6974 said:Power Necromancer downed damage is far far lower than the damage it can do while alive. Also, Necromancer don’t have anything powerful for saving his life in downed state.
I can’t see any value in the change you are proposing. You just want a mechanic of the GW2 combat system to be taken away because you don’t like it.

because it promote larger groupes and is harmful for 1v1 or 1v2 scenario.of course i don't like it. but it goes beyond simply me don't liking it. it is a very casual friendly feature that has its place for PvE.downing a player should be rewarding. but in some case, especially in 1vX it is not. becasue depeinding on the class you will have a hard time dealing with the +1 and the extra ( sometimes unavoidable) damage or CC from the downed. you need that extra effort or save that extra skill you wont use during the fight just to finish someone which is hard to do when you had a fair fight and you are already low on HP or on CD on most skills.not every class have access to a safe finisher. engi, elem and thieves have one. not the rest.

as for necro in downed state, its damage is high enough (and unavoidable as its not even a projectile) to put a considerable pressure on the enemy. especially if you run a glass canon build (berserker). the time it takes you to use a finisher and eventually dodge or take the fear to come back and use finisher again you will lose too much HP. you can't even stun a downed target. so you get to fight an immobile turret you can't CC (unless you throw a bump) that deal constant damage to you whatever you do where as when it was alive you could control it to death or outmaneuver it to cancel channeling abilities like axe 2. thus dealing more damage.

you must understand that, usually when you get downed, you are deafeted. earning extra life and new abilities with a resistance to CC should be only a mechanic to help PvE casual people or survive fails by getting help from another player. (in other mmorpg there is some revive spells too but no downed state. this is just a gaemplay choice and it is fine).but in pvp/wvw it become quickly frustration to have to deal with it.

i'd say, the pvp and wvw would be better without downed state but with the ability to revive dead people with revive ability instead of reviving the downed.even so, beiong able to use 2 and 3 is fine. it may give that extra helping ability for the downed. but a constant dps is a no no. especially with BS ranger downed state.

Antycypator.9874 · August 7, 2020

Auto-attack should be removed at all.Push your buttons if you want to deal damage, don't let the game do it for you, it's dumb.

Black Storm.6974 · August 7, 2020

@Antycypator.9874 said:Auto-attack should be removed at all.Push your buttons if you want to deal damage, don't let the game do it for you, it's dumb.

Auto attacks are helpful to not get very soon tired of playing in PvE, where people often play for a long time.This is also a highly dynamic game where pressing skills to do damage is only one of many things we have to do while fighting.

There are plenty of reasons to not just auto attack and that is enough.

Having auto attacks is very good for the game and fortunately ArenaNet seem to understand that better than you.

Black Storm.6974 · August 7, 2020

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:
@Black Storm.6974 said:Power Necromancer downed damage is far far lower than the damage it can do while alive. Also, Necromancer don’t have anything powerful for saving his life in downed state.
I can’t see any value in the change you are proposing. You just want a mechanic of the GW2 combat system to be taken away because you don’t like it.

because it promote larger groupes and is harmful for 1v1 or 1v2 scenario.of course i don't like it. but it goes beyond simply me don't liking it. it is a very casual friendly feature that has its place for PvE.downing a player should be rewarding. but in some case, especially in 1vX it is not. becasue depeinding on the class you will have a hard time dealing with the +1 and the extra ( sometimes unavoidable) damage or CC from the downed. you need that extra effort or save that extra skill you wont use during the fight just to finish someone which is hard to do when you had a fair fight and you are already low on HP or on CD on most skills.not every class have access to a safe finisher. engi, elem and thieves have one. not the rest.

as for necro in downed state, its damage is high enough (and unavoidable as its not even a projectile) to put a considerable pressure on the enemy. especially if you run a glass canon build (berserker). the time it takes you to use a finisher and eventually dodge or take the fear to come back and use finisher again you will lose too much HP. you can't even stun a downed target. so you get to fight an immobile turret you can't CC (unless you throw a bump) that deal constant damage to you whatever you do where as when it was alive you could control it to death or outmaneuver it to cancel channeling abilities like axe 2. thus dealing more damage.

you must understand that, usually when you get downed, you are deafeted. earning extra life and new abilities with a resistance to CC should be only a mechanic to help PvE casual people or survive fails by getting help from another player. (in other mmorpg there is some revive spells too but no downed state. this is just a gaemplay choice and it is fine).but in pvp/wvw it become quickly frustration to have to deal with it.

i'd say, the pvp and wvw would be better without downed state but with the ability to revive dead people with revive ability instead of reviving the downed.even so, beiong able to use 2 and 3 is fine. it may give that extra helping ability for the downed. but a constant dps is a no no. especially with BS ranger downed state.

It is simply your mistake to consider downed characters as defeated. They are not. Your entire argument (or most of it) is based on that false perception you have.

Downed characters are just in another phase of the fight where they are far less effective and very limited (and no, there are not exceptions to that).

Putting a player in downed state is far from being useless and could turn a fight in the favour of those able to make good use of the opportunity.

As it can be difficult for you to finish a downed player, can be difficult and risky for others to revive it. Performing a finisher was always risky, but it is not your only option.

In the end, you are probably just another person that try to change the game instead of learning, adapting and properly building your character based on what you want to do.

Surely without downed state the fight would be much simpler, also faster, but that doesn’t mean it would be better.

I find the downed state phase of the fight to be, for the group, a very interesting part of the GW2 combat system, supported by the interactions with several skills and traits. After all these years, fights would feel so empty without it.

sitarskee.5738 · August 7, 2020

I don't think they should be removed. I think that dying process should be way faster or the damage taken while downed much higher.

Black Storm.6974 · August 7, 2020

@sitarskee.5738 said:I don't think they should be removed. I think that dying process should be way faster or the damage taken while downed much higher.

That would make finishers mostly useless.

ledernierrempart.6871 · August 7, 2020

@Black Storm.6974 said:
@sitarskee.5738 said:I don't think they should be removed. I think that dying process should be way faster or the damage taken while downed much higher.

That would make finishers mostly useless.

bring back celerity as a mean to finish fast. done

@Black Storm.6974my arguments still stand. your second phase shit is a defeated state wether you like it or not.no downed state does make the fights better (in particular in WvW!!! the most fun i had in wvw was when the no donwed state event came) but there is always the whining casual croud that ask for an easier game so they can play without improving.we can also speak about the useless autoattack the war has in downed state. or the inefficient elem one.downed states are as balanced as water content. but it is alright in most case. but in some case it is just pure BS.

adapt you say? well have you tried to 1v2 a player with his guard support mate? you down him but the guard CC you and revive him. most of your skills are on cd. you are low on hp. but that guy, who cleared all the condi you took, time to put on him while getting downed, now get back up with 50% hp and the 1v2 is basically reset but with you having an extra disadvantage.

the game need to improve like it did with the stab mechanic being changed. (yes it is an improvement despite some WvW "veteran" whining not being able to be immun to CC. anymore)like the poor damage on CC, which is a very good balance change! the change of scrapper anti projectile bubble that used to repel arrows but now only destroy them is also a good change! little by little the game gets better and better (but also worst in some case but thats for another thread.)

arenanet tried the no downed state, several times, just to see how it goes. but they discarded it in the end for reasons. BUT downed state in pvp/wvw need to be changed somewhat. which they did for WvW so that you can't revive everyone when only one downed enemy were killed. but that is not enough. works well for bus vs bus but it is not that impactfull in roaming or small scale fights.in the end i am just another guy who give his feedback on what could possibly be better for the game.

anyway, second phase or not, it should not be a "phase" where you can DPS your target. point.

Black Storm.6974 · August 7, 2020

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:
@Black Storm.6974 said:
@sitarskee.5738 said:I don't think they should be removed. I think that dying process should be way faster or the damage taken while downed much higher.

That would make finishers mostly useless.

bring back celerity as a mean to finish fast. done

@Black Storm.6974my arguments still stand. your second phase kitten is a defeated state wether you like it or not.no downed state does make the fights better (in particular in WvW!!! the most fun i had in wvw was when the no donwed state event came) but there is always the whining casual croud that ask for an easier game so they can play without improving.we can also speak about the useless autoattack the war has in downed state. or the inefficient elem one.downed states are as balanced as water content. but it is alright in most case. but in some case it is just pure BS.

adapt you say? well have you tried to 1v2 a player with his guard support mate? you down him but the guard CC you and revive him. most of your skills are on cd. you are low on hp. but that guy, who cleared all the condi you took, time to put on him while getting downed, now get back up with 50% hp and the 1v2 is basically reset but with you having an extra disadvantage.

the game need to improve like it did with the stab mechanic being changed. (yes it is an improvement despite some WvW "veteran" whining not being able to be immun to CC. anymore)like the poor damage on CC, which is a very good balance change! the change of scrapper anti projectile bubble that used to repel arrows but now only destroy them is also a good change! little by little the game gets better and better (but also worst in some case but thats for another thread.)

arenanet tried the no downed state, several times, just to see how it goes. but they discarded it in the end for reasons. BUT downed state in pvp/wvw need to be changed somewhat. which they did for WvW so that you can't revive everyone when only one downed enemy were killed. but that is not enough. works well for bus vs bus but it is not that impactfull in roaming or small scale fights.in the end i am just another guy who give his feedback on what could possibly be better for the game.

anyway, second phase or not, it should not be a "phase" where you can DPS your target. point.

Like it or not a downed player is not defeated, and the proof is that it can still fight. It is a fact with no room for contestation.It seems they can even cause trouble to you, but still you consider them as defeated. It is what you want them to be, not what they are.

You see problems that are problems for you (and other people) but not for others, because it is entirely subjective. A game without downed state won’t be better, only different.

Downed state balance seems to be mostly ignored, just like underwater balance. I agree with that, but my solution would be to look at them and eventually change something.

This game has, for example, the best underwater combat I have ever seen. I find very interesting the presence of the downed state as a second phase of the fight. Removing or severely crippling one and/or the other, from my point of view, would be a big waste, when they could be improved instead.

ledernierrempart.6871 · August 7, 2020

@Black Storm.6974 said:
@ledernierrempart.6871 said:
@Black Storm.6974 said:
@sitarskee.5738 said:I don't think they should be removed. I think that dying process should be way faster or the damage taken while downed much higher.

That would make finishers mostly useless.

bring back celerity as a mean to finish fast. done

@Black Storm.6974my arguments still stand. your second phase kitten is a defeated state wether you like it or not.no downed state does make the fights better (in particular in WvW!!! the most fun i had in wvw was when the no donwed state event came) but there is always the whining casual croud that ask for an easier game so they can play without improving.we can also speak about the useless autoattack the war has in downed state. or the inefficient elem one.downed states are as balanced as water content. but it is alright in most case. but in some case it is just pure BS.

adapt you say? well have you tried to 1v2 a player with his guard support mate? you down him but the guard CC you and revive him. most of your skills are on cd. you are low on hp. but that guy, who cleared all the condi you took, time to put on him while getting downed, now get back up with 50% hp and the 1v2 is basically reset but with you having an extra disadvantage.

the game need to improve like it did with the stab mechanic being changed. (yes it is an improvement despite some WvW "veteran" whining not being able to be immun to CC. anymore)like the poor damage on CC, which is a very good balance change! the change of scrapper anti projectile bubble that used to repel arrows but now only destroy them is also a good change! little by little the game gets better and better (but also worst in some case but thats for another thread.)

arenanet tried the no downed state, several times, just to see how it goes. but they discarded it in the end for reasons. BUT downed state in pvp/wvw need to be changed somewhat. which they did for WvW so that you can't revive everyone when only one downed enemy were killed. but that is not enough. works well for bus vs bus but it is not that impactfull in roaming or small scale fights.in the end i am just another guy who give his feedback on what could possibly be better for the game.

anyway, second phase or not, it should not be a "phase" where you can DPS your target. point.

Like it or not a downed player is not defeated, and the proof is that it can still fight. It is a fact with no room for contestation.It seems they can even cause trouble to you, but still you consider them as defeated.

You see problems that are problems for you (and other people) but not for others, because it is entirely subjective. A game without downed state won’t be better, only different.

Downed state balance seems to be mostly ignored, just like underwater balance. I agree with that, but my solution would be to look at them and eventually change something.

This game has, for example, the best underwater combat I have ever seen. I find very interesting the presence of the downed state as a second phase of the fight. Removing or severely crippling one and/or the other, from my point of view, would be a big waste, when they could be improved instead.

you mean this is one of the very rare games with water combat rigth? of course its one of the best if you can't find it in other games.

i don't care what you call it. defeated state, second phase state, pizza chicken state...the problem is not about the downed state itself but what it does. and it should not be allowed to dps in that state (in pvp and wvw) for all the reasons i gave.

yes it need to be changed, not neccessarly removed. remember the title of the thread?

Black Storm.6974 · August 7, 2020

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:
@Black Storm.6974 said:
@ledernierrempart.6871 said:
@Black Storm.6974 said:
@sitarskee.5738 said:I don't think they should be removed. I think that dying process should be way faster or the damage taken while downed much higher.