Anet, what is your actual intention with Manifest Sand Shade?

[mazut.4296]

At least we "might" get some damage back...maybe...

[Walhalla.5473]

@mazut.4296 said:At least we "might" get some damage back...maybe...

Buffed Axe by 5% and reduced Aftercast of Torch 5 by 0.005 seconds.

After the Reaper "buffs" I would totally expect this kind of "buffs" for scourge.

[Galmac.4680]

Necros will be strong again with the next patch ... I mean AddOn ... for at least two weeks! So be prepared!Until then we'll get the buff in form of one extra bleeding stack on staff-5.

[ElderNewt.5840]

We have 3 fantastic GM Traits all varies on situation/modeT1 - Ideal for PvP/WvWT2 - Ideal for PvET3 - Personal choice - PvE/WvW/PvP

Trouble is we don't have a support based GM Trait..and because of it... we don't have this Heavy support as Anet thinks we have.. Unless he's talking about the up coming balance patch - which then I think he should of made that more clear.

As of now.. with the amount of LF we have to use vs how little LF we gain on single target enemies without being forced locked into a whole trait line and weapon (SR - Staff) the "barrier support" we have.... is far between being wanted by the masses.Now I've seen barrier work and protect people..I love it... but.. it's not....there yet..it's not enough to be desired over other powerful buffs... for one.. barrier starts to decrease way too fast.

[Amenon.9126]

We should make a reddit post and ask ANet to revert this patch until they can actually come up with a BALANCE patch. Not a "we destroy your class now, making it unplayable, but we will look into something to make it better, eventually" patch. This should not happen. Dont destroy a class with intentions to buff it next year, just bring the damn balance patch when you are ready.

[Maunzi.3764]

The patch does not need to be reverted, but the class does need to be fixed.

And by class I mean "Necromancer in PVE" in its entirity, not JUST Scourge.

[Axl.8924]

Personally i wonder if necro is going to be viable as a scourge support currently as is? one guy was talknig about how you could apply barrier and be a hp bar raiser to help healers.Is that actually enough to make necros desired for raids and fractals?

[Lily.1935]

@Axl.8924 said:Personally i wonder if necro is going to be viable as a scourge support currently as is? one guy was talknig about how you could apply barrier and be a hp bar raiser to help healers.Is that actually enough to make necros desired for raids and fractals?

Raids? Absolutely not. Fractals? Absolutely not. And the reason for my answer for Fractals is because barrier is impacted by agony at the same rate as healing. So, no and no.

[TheLastNobody.8319]

@Pingu.8431 said:

@Karl McLain.5604 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:What I'm saying is:

If the interaction between MSS and DS is fixed, there should be no reason for the striking component on MSS to not stack.

If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go

up

from where it's currently at.

If I'm being honest, that's shallow design. You had something interesting before. Yes you could 'play the field', which is important especially in PvP and WvW, but you could also maximize your damage at the cost of 'playing the field' by stacking your shades instead of having area control (higher damage in a smaller area), giving players a

choice

and

options

(there is also a greater deal of counterplay, as enemies could easily avoid the higher damage in the concentrated area). Options are especially important because shade stacking made Scourge viable in raids, a game mode where you don't really need to 'play the field', giving Scourge players the ability to be viable in all game modes. Scourge won't be able to be viable in raids if you assume that the maximum damage potential is with one individual shade, or no shades. You had something good and interesting with the 'bug' there but now you're going backwards.

I mean this whole game is about choices, that's why it has so many gear options. It would be a good idea to embrace it. Heck, if reaper was supposed to be a power spec and that was the 'idea' of the class, why isn't that brought out more?

Problem is though, they’d then have to balance this around the “Ideal Scenario”. I think the whole thing sucks too but I’ll take the less shade stacking and balancing a single shade’s effectiveness (if I have to) over balancing based on conditions that only ever happen in a closed vacuum.

[Adril lino.2903]

@Karl McLain.5604 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:What I'm saying is:

If the interaction between MSS and DS is fixed, there should be no reason for the striking component on MSS to not stack.

If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go

up

from where it's currently at.

I hope the "as it has heavy support built in" line was a big joke....but i guess not <.<.

NECRO or special Scourge had never heavy support, only the Barrier for 2 sec is not a heavy support.So what does "Support" mean for Anet?? I don't get it.

For the Players support mean: actuel relevant BUFF's or BOON's. ( Like Chronomancer with the BUFF alacrity, or a Warrior with the BOON's Might and Fury)So i question myself what gives us the Scourge for relavant Support (so what can he do passive or active in compare to his Dps)

What i found:

Bloodmagic trail Line--- Vampiric Presence (You and your nearby allies siphon health with attacks) ( passive)Scourge trail Lie---- Barrier over Dmg (active)

Support Necro/Scourge Skills:

                                                    _Poisen Cloud ( projectile block for 8 sec)_  (what is OK **other Classes have more** )                                                    _Well of Power ( Condi remove and stability gain)_   ( **Other Classes** have more Condi remove(Druid, Guardian) and stability gain in passive so not woth it)                                                    _Plague Signet ( condi remove from allies )_  (Like well of power **not worth it**  , cauce other classes do it better in passive)                                                  _Corrupt Boon ( boon remove from enemy)_   ( **Not worth** it cause  you do it in ** Auto Scepter cain ** , and ** also Mesmer ** on **Sword auto cain**                                                   _Desert Shroud ( Barrier for 2 sec)_   ( In generel **mostly irrelavant ** cause of  **Block, Invuls, Heal from other Classes ( Guard, Mesmer,Druid,**)                                                   _Sand Swell (little Barrier + short portal)_  (Little Barrier u not even feel and a Portal what is to short to be usefull in pve ( maybe wvw/pvp)

Mostly you can just take irrelevant support, what can easily replaced by an other class who do it passive and 100 times better.

SOOO again what do the Necro/ Scourge has as Support??The answer is: nealy Nothing So i don't understand what ANET count as Support??

Saying he does have heavy support is a big LIE

So what to do now??

Instat of lying to yourself Anet u coud give the Necro/Scourge a relevant and good DPS, so he could be valible in Raids or Fracs or makes sense to choose as a class.Now after the Patch the necro is dead in pve contant again, compare to other Classes his dmg now is just too low.

[Galmac.4680]

@Axl.8924 said:... one guy was talknig about how you could apply barrier and be a hp bar raiser to help healers. ...

So we are best in being assistents for supporters. Like Robin to Batman. Wait... no. Like Robins dog (if he has one) to Robin, while Robin is the supporter to Batman.

[Amenon.9126]

@Maunzi.3764 said:The patch does not need to be reverted, but the class does need to be fixed.

The patch DOES need to be reverted. This was not a balance patch, you don't have one class doing 40k dps, the other one 29k and call it balanced. Until they have an actual balance patch, nothing needs to change. If the necromancer community sits idly, closes its eyes and swallows its tongue, this is what it deserves. Im sorry, most of you might see this as being an aggressive post, that's not the point.

Yes, by all means, fix the class, but fix it WHEN YOU HAVE THE PATCH, not after months, not after you've (ANet) destroyed it and everyone that was playing it quit the game.

Thats my 2 cents. If you, as a necro will just sit and take it, thats what we deserve, as a whole.

[kKagari.6804]

@Amenon.9126 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:The patch does not need to be reverted, but the class does need to be fixed.

The patch DOES need to be reverted. This was not a balance patch, you don't have one class doing 40k dps, the other one 29k and call it balanced. Until they have an actual balance patch, nothing needs to change. If the necromancer community sits idly, closes its eyes and swallows its tongue, this is what it deserves. Im sorry, most of you might see this as being an aggressive post, that's not the point.

Yes, by all means, fix the class, but fix it WHEN YOU HAVE THE PATCH, not after months, not after you've (ANet) destroyed it and everyone that was playing it quit the game.

Thats my 2 cents. If you, as a necro will just sit and take it, thats what we deserve, as a whole.

If just using desert shroud can net you 14-28 strikes of damage, then no, the patch did the correct thing. It is about where Arenanet decides to take it from here now. Desert shroud prepatch easily landed 25k damage, whether it was power or condition, and no skill should do that.

[Amenon.9126]

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Amenon.9126 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:The patch does not need to be reverted, but the class does need to be fixed.

The patch DOES need to be reverted. This was not a balance patch, you don't have one class doing 40k dps, the other one 29k and call it balanced. Until they have an actual balance patch, nothing needs to change. If the necromancer community sits idly, closes its eyes and swallows its tongue, this is what it deserves. Im sorry, most of you might see this as being an aggressive post, that's not the point.

Yes, by all means, fix the class, but fix it WHEN YOU HAVE THE PATCH, not after months, not after you've (ANet) destroyed it and everyone that was playing it quit the game.

Thats my 2 cents. If you, as a necro will just sit and take it, thats what we deserve, as a whole.

If just using desert shroud can net you 14-28 strikes of damage, then no, the patch did the correct thing. It is about where Arenanet decides to take it from here now. Desert shroud prepatch easily landed 25k damage, whether it was power or condition, and no skill should do that.

You obviously read nothing of my post. By all means, nerf Desert Shroud, but give us something in return that allows us to be competitive, still. Nerf said skill when you have the other thing to give in return, not nerf today, return in 2 months, thats what balance is. I have no idea how you didnt understand that.

[mygamingid.5816]

Necro support options: vulnerability, barriers, lifesteal, boon-to-condi, condi-to-boon, revive assist, area heal, condi cleanse/absorb/transfer...

I know, I know. “But raids don’t need that or others do it better in raids and my entire profession is only worthwhile if I top the golem dps chart and raids are my precious! Golem! Golem!”

Kitten raids.

If you want to nerf anything, nerf support so that more classes are useful. Instead of boons hitting 5 or 10 teammates (that was a terrible mistake), have them hit 3. Then you can’t cover an entire team without crippling dps. Hybrid and personal support becomes much more valuable, making more builds viable.

[kKagari.6804]

@Amenon.9126 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Amenon.9126 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:The patch does not need to be reverted, but the class does need to be fixed.

The patch DOES need to be reverted. This was not a balance patch, you don't have one class doing 40k dps, the other one 29k and call it balanced. Until they have an actual balance patch, nothing needs to change. If the necromancer community sits idly, closes its eyes and swallows its tongue, this is what it deserves. Im sorry, most of you might see this as being an aggressive post, that's not the point.

Yes, by all means, fix the class, but fix it WHEN YOU HAVE THE PATCH, not after months, not after you've (ANet) destroyed it and everyone that was playing it quit the game.

Thats my 2 cents. If you, as a necro will just sit and take it, thats what we deserve, as a whole.

If just using desert shroud can net you 14-28 strikes of damage, then no, the patch did the correct thing. It is about where Arenanet decides to take it from here now. Desert shroud prepatch easily landed 25k damage, whether it was power or condition, and no skill should do that.

You obviously read nothing of my post. By all means, nerf Desert Shroud, but give us something in return that allows us to be competitive, still. Nerf said skill when you have the other thing to give in return, not nerf today, return in 2 months, thats what balance is. I have no idea how you didnt understand that.

Karl said himself balance is coming, why shouldn't something broken be fixed now rather than later? It was bad enough they let it through all PvP season. I suppose we are supposed to leave the gazelle unfixed too? If its broken it deserves to be fixed, I have no idea why you don't understand that.

[Amenon.9126]

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Amenon.9126 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Amenon.9126 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:The patch does not need to be reverted, but the class does need to be fixed.

The patch DOES need to be reverted. This was not a balance patch, you don't have one class doing 40k dps, the other one 29k and call it balanced. Until they have an actual balance patch, nothing needs to change. If the necromancer community sits idly, closes its eyes and swallows its tongue, this is what it deserves. Im sorry, most of you might see this as being an aggressive post, that's not the point.

Yes, by all means, fix the class, but fix it WHEN YOU HAVE THE PATCH, not after months, not after you've (ANet) destroyed it and everyone that was playing it quit the game.

Thats my 2 cents. If you, as a necro will just sit and take it, thats what we deserve, as a whole.

If just using desert shroud can net you 14-28 strikes of damage, then no, the patch did the correct thing. It is about where Arenanet decides to take it from here now. Desert shroud prepatch easily landed 25k damage, whether it was power or condition, and no skill should do that.

You obviously read nothing of my post. By all means, nerf Desert Shroud, but give us something in return that allows us to be competitive, still. Nerf said skill when you have the other thing to give in return, not nerf today, return in 2 months, thats what balance is. I have no idea how you didnt understand that.

Karl said himself balance is coming, why shouldn't something broken be fixed now rather than later? It was bad enough they let it through all PvP season. I suppose we are supposed to leave the gazelle unfixed too? If its broken it deserves to be fixed, I have no idea why you don't understand that.

When is balance coming? Balance was coming for necro in vanilla, and balance came for reaper at the beggining of HoT -> Or so they would like you to think. If balance is coming tomorrow, why not leave the scourge as it was until then? Surely, after 3 weeks, 2 more days would not have been an issue, right?Balance might be coming, but it wont matter, because if you are a necro and see "NO NECRO" in LFG all day, you wont have the heart to play it anymore.

Again, dont get me wrong, im all about fixing something thats broken, but do it in a manner that does not destroy the spec or class as a whole. Test things internally, and if the changes are effective, if they dont destroy a class in one fell swoop, by all means, apply it! Dont destroy something and promise a balance patch that might never come (see vanilla necro and postlaunch reaper).

Later edit: as i see, most of the issues came from PVP, so why not just make the changes only in PVP mode, until you have a real fix for the issue? "Fix PVP" and dont destroy the PVE spec in the process. Seems easy enough, right?

[Axl.8924]

I wonder then:Will scourge be buffed in the area of support to be better? or will they give a slight buff that is super small and call it a day?

[Zania.8461]

Will people drop the 50k weaver crap? I honestly feel bad for elementalists that have one ridiculous rotation that can be executed on like 2 bosses in the entire game with perfect support as a justification that either eles need a nerf or everyone else needs a buff. Far more realistic condi weaver does damage comparable to most other top dps classes and provides no team support (as well as being extremely squishy).

Pre-nerf shade stacking WAS too strong. I disagree with gutting the class without re-adjusting the individual shade damage at the same time, but this is how ANet balancing always worked, regardless of the class. All over-performing skills got fixed ASAP and then over the course of next 3-5 (or many more) balance patches the classes slowly got re-balanced.

Part of the problem with necro (especially in raids) was that they always relied on individual skills to make them competitive, be it epidemic bounce or shades. However the fact that those individual skills performed exceptionally well tended to mask the fact that the class without those gimmicks was severely under-performing. I hope the next spec will do the same thing for necromancer as weaver is supposed to be for elementalists - drop all the "amazing necro support" and "survivability" for raw damage. All it will take is a new shroud replacement that simply makes some attacks more powerful without providing any of the so-called support. At least then they can compete for raid spots with other "selfish" specs.

[Doodledibob.2456]

So Scourge now has about the same DPS as cPS Warrior, without any of the unique buffs.

2 solutions:

increase Scourge DPS to old levels for PvE.

give necros access to the same kind of unique buff as warrior.

Personally, I'm more in favor of the latter, as I despise unique buffs in this game.If they were something like alacrity that multiple classes had access to, you wouldn't have this problem of only single classes being used in PvE. Rename banner effects something like "Berzerker's boon" etc., and give other classes the ability to use it as well.

DPS can also work, even if it is the more boring of the 2 options.

I dislike the design of Scourge overall. I think it's lazy reuse of the idea of a well/shout corruption Reaper. But as long as you guys refuse to skill-split for PvP/PvE parts of the game, Reaper will remain trash for PvE.

[Agrax.5670]

Anet will do nothing to properly fix it. The same they did to reaper „+x to ferocity” on GM minor in their opinion „got the job done” and they were out on Hawaii once again

[Selendile.9106]

I think the problem arises when one considers taking the trait that allows you to summon 1 big shade that counts as 3, as said in the tooltip. How does MSS strikes stack then? Clearly you’d get 3 strikes from that giant shade, making that the clear choice for damage as you wouldn’t need to sandwich 3 shades to get the full benefit.

[Arzurag.7506]

I´m looking forward to when it´s again necromancer´s time to shine, after the next expansion is released and necromancer does again decent damage but then probably due a bug again or unintended gameplay.^^It´s actually funny that the only time were we are strong is roughly 2 weeks after expac-release. Someone above mentioned it before and I think it´s worth to mention again.

edit:too many agains

[Agrax.5670]

@Arzurag.7506 said:I´m looking forward to when it´s again necromancer´s time to shine, after the next expansion is released and necromancer does again decent damage but then probably due a bug again or unintended gameplay.^^It´s actually funny that the only time were we are strong is roughly 2 weeks after expac-release. Someone above mentioned it before and I think it´s worth to mention again.

edit:too many agains

Ofc. The whole necro class is the biggest mistake anet made in their entire career

[Amenon.9126]

Again, its the necromancer community's fault for this. If we were voicing our concerns higher and not just sit and swallow, the story would be different. Bring the pitchforks, demand for this to be a playable class, that we all paid for! And not next month, but today! We have every right to be as happy as every other class out there. Currently, every single class in the game has a viable spec for raiding. Every single one, apart from necromancer.