Anet, what is your actual intention with Manifest Sand Shade?

[kKagari.6804]

@Maunzi.3764 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:

@Amenon.9126 said:

@Maunzi.3764 said:The patch does not need to be reverted, but the class does need to be fixed.

The patch DOES need to be reverted. This was not a balance patch, you don't have one class doing 40k dps, the other one 29k and call it balanced. Until they have an actual balance patch, nothing needs to change. If the necromancer community sits idly, closes its eyes and swallows its tongue, this is what it deserves. Im sorry, most of you might see this as being an aggressive post, that's not the point.

Yes, by all means, fix the class, but fix it WHEN YOU HAVE THE PATCH, not after months, not after you've (ANet) destroyed it and everyone that was playing it quit the game.

Thats my 2 cents. If you, as a necro will just sit and take it, thats what we deserve, as a whole.

If just using desert shroud can net you 14-28 strikes of damage, then no, the patch did the correct thing. It is about where Arenanet decides to take it from here now. Desert shroud prepatch easily landed 25k damage, whether it was power or condition, and no skill should do that.

If Desert Shroud prepatch somehow landed 25k damage by itself, then this means that all other skills combined were, in optimum circumstances, 13k dps.

This not only shows that you're making numbers up to suit your agenda (and it's a completely ridiculous claim that does not match reality), it also means that, were your claims true, all necro skills except Desert shroud need to be buffed by about 80%.

Will people drop the 50k weaver crap? I honestly feel bad for elementalists that have one ridiculous rotation that can be executed on like 2 bosses in the entire game with perfect support as a justification that either eles need a nerf or everyone else needs a buff.

You're being extremely two-faced. You make the SAME CLAIM about pre-nerf Scourge. If pre-nerf scourge was out of control, then weaver is MUCH MORE OP. That damage was only ever doable on a tiny fraction of bosses.

You've quoted from two people here. I did the maths for the 25k damage in another topic titled "Is scourge more of a power spec than condition spec" (something like that) and it is about the entire damage of stacking a shade with a scourge, and using desert shroud. The 25k damage is the skill damage, no the damage per second.

[Zenith.7301]

@Vrita.7846 said:It honestly doesn't make any sense. What exactly is the point of summoning more than one shade in PvE? "Playing the field" is completely irrelevant in PvE, the idea is to pull all trash mobs into a tight stack and nuke them. When fighting a boss, ideally you'd want to keep the boss in 1 spot so people can dps it, if the boss is moving then the dps goes out the window. I get that shade stacking was a big issue in PvP and WvW, but in PvE it makes perfect sense to do it. Currently there's 0 reason to have more than 1 shade out at any time, as the other 2 shades do literally nothing except look spooky.

They don't design for PvE. Everything balance wise that affects PvE is accidental.

Ask yourself why warrior banners and and Phalanx Strength exist on a support class that can push 30k DPS (nearly more than double of what druid and chrono are doing) still exists in PvE?

No class can approach warrior in might stacking at little cost to DPS. Warrior is king supreme of might provision, and banners provide the strongest group damage buffs in the game.

Because nobody uses phalanx strength or banners in PvP. Simple.

If it affects PvP, they care. If it doesn't, they don't.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

@Zefiris.8297 said:So, would your server take a Scourge for a druid spot in general?Would they do this for non-training runs?

I am not keeping on asking you this to be mean, it's a serious question based on my own experiences that suggested less so. I am one of the scourge players that originally wanted to support on the class (i am not even a fan of the DPS role!), yet never had the chance to try, because "not druid", that's why I am asking.

We absolutely are fine with Support Scourge and i play it often. Only bosses we'd really just stick to meta druids is Gorse, and KC if your dps players arent solid.

[Brujeria.7536]

Heavy support with scourge? You mean the total of 1 shade skill that provides a laughable amount of barrier, 1 trait that provides a laughable amount of barrier and, and a condi remove? Seriously, healing like druid does is better in every aspect, its on demand, whenever you need it, you can burst heal, heal over time, whatever, and this doenst decay as barrier do. Might is nothing special without the other free stuff warrior gets on top.

By that logic ele should never be top DPS EVER as it has heavy support built into EVERY weaponset in the form of Water attunement. Yet it ALWAYS is top dps.

[Brujeria.7536]

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Vrita.7846 said:It honestly doesn't make any sense. What exactly is the point of summoning more than one shade in PvE? "Playing the field" is completely irrelevant in PvE, the idea is to pull all trash mobs into a tight stack and nuke them. When fighting a boss, ideally you'd want to keep the boss in 1 spot so people can dps it, if the boss is moving then the dps goes out the window. I get that shade stacking was a big issue in PvP and WvW, but in PvE it makes perfect sense to do it. Currently there's 0 reason to have more than 1 shade out at any time, as the other 2 shades do literally nothing except look spooky.

They don't design for PvE. Everything balance wise that affects PvE is accidental.

Ask yourself why warrior banners and and Phalanx Strength exist on a support class that can push 30k DPS (nearly more than double of what druid and chrono are doing) still exists in PvE?

No class can approach warrior in might stacking at little cost to DPS. Warrior is king supreme of might provision, and banners provide the strongest group damage buffs in the game.

Because nobody uses phalanx strength or banners in PvP. Simple.

If it affects PvP, they care. If it doesn't, they don't.

It wouldn't even be that hard - coming up with good ideas for pvp and wvw is the hard part. Buffing these numbers all to the same potential maximum for PvE scenarios only is a piece of cake.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

@vicious.5683 said:

@Karl McLain.5604 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:What I'm saying is:

If the interaction between MSS and DS is fixed, there should be no reason for the striking component on MSS to not stack.

If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go

up

from where it's currently at.

Are you planning to fix Power Reaper abysmal dps too?

Well Karl?

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

@MrMouser.6583 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go

up

from where it's currently at.

Well, right now Scourge is a clunkier, less fun, less thematic condi Reaper with even lower DPS, so it really can only go up from where it currently is.Then again, the balance team does like to surprise me when I make statements like that.

Also, if I understand you correctly, we now went from Necromancer/Reaper can't have competitive DPS because we have a bad defensive mechanic nobody but the devs value, to Scourge can't have competitive DPS because we have "heavy support" that nobody but the Devs highly value.Wonderful.

Now don't get me wrong, I like the on demand Condi cleanse and the tiny Barrier blips are nice and all, but unless Scourge (and Reaper) can compete for a DPS slot, we will see a no Necro policy pop up again.

On a side node, now that Scourge is over, what's the status on any actual Power Reaper Buffs (or condi Reaper, I'm not picky at this point)?

Its funny cause Condi Reaper could be fixed by simply giving us an option that we will always put priority on our own fields. You basically fix the spec without touching any skill.

That would be incredibly useful to engineers as well. I definitely support this.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

@mygamingid.5816 said:Stop trying to argue the raid meta as a balance metric. Raids are a skewed, broken game mode that should not enter the profession balance discussion at all. It's a tiny part of the game and performance is wholly dependent on being able to avoid damage by moving into or out of a colored shape. Simply making raid bosses move out of AOEs - even just move around at all - would wreck the current meta. Changing from dance-or-die to sustaining direct damage would also be a huge improvement and would force players out of glass builds. Those aren't profession balance issues, they're encounter design issues, and it's the encounter design that needs rebalanced.

In open world events, barriers have been great. They help whether the target is at full health or not, unlike heals that can waste a ton of healing power on partially-wounded or fully-healed targets. They're front loaded, allowing you to time them to best effect. Boon corruption matters in PoF, too. Neither matter in the half-kitten raid mode, but that's a half-kitten mode.

Sure how about when they start offering Legendary Armor in Fractals, or make a story mode version of Raids so that the unwanted builds can see the content?

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:Sure how about when they start offering Legendary Armor in Fractals, or make a story mode version of Raids so that the unwanted builds can see the content?

This, 100% this. I have yet to see much of this content because i play a Power Reaper, so until they add some relevance to most builds, this content it will be underused and underappreciated and completely unnecessarily!

[Sarrs.4831]

Would be amazing if we could see some kind of balance roadmap to know what changes we can expect, what the goals of those changes are and when we can expect them. SWTOR devs do this and it's actually pretty helpful.

[Arzurag.7506]

@Sarrs.4831 said:Would be amazing if we could see some kind of balance roadmap to know what changes we can expect, what the goals of those changes are and when we can expect them. SWTOR devs do this and it's actually pretty helpful.

According to a reddit post we will get a balance-patch in round about two weeks, either that or we will get one at the end of the current pvp-season.

I hope that we get a patch asap but at the same time I fear that none of the current issues will be addressed.

[reukies.6418]

@Kanto.1659 said:

@Amenon.9126 said:Again, its the necromancer community's fault for this. If we were voicing our concerns higher and not just sit and swallow, the story would be different. Bring the pitchforks, demand for this to be a playable class, that we all paid for! And not next month, but today! We have every right to be as happy as every other class out there. Currently, every single class in the game has a viable spec for raiding. Every single one, apart from necromancer.

In what world do you live in that forum protests change anything? The devs bunker down, close all communication. The community rages, demands explanations, pitchforks are raised. A week later no changes, no communication. Two weeks later no changes, no communication. You can't keep a community in an uproar for ever. More importantly, it does nothing. Power Reaper, anyone? Taken to the back and given a shot to the head and then ignored? You think there were no protests? No uproar?

No, this is Spreadsheet City. I can picture the devs talking between themselves as they examine graph bars,

'Look guys. In this perfect scenario here the necro has full life force, they wait until the attack is about to land, and spam their barrier and thus will have soaked X thousands of damage! It's amazing, players are going to love it. This is some good heavy support here!'

We leave Spreadsheet City and, well, I won't bother re-iterating what has been repeated ad nauseum about the

real

support barriers grant and which we are going to be balanced around.

This is why I like Blizzard. They are one fo the few game devs that actually communicate with players properly. They don't do ninja nerfs and hope players won't notice and then after they notice say "We were late, it will be added soon". They don't look at one game type and decide it needs a nerf, they actually analyse themselves AND talk to the community. Not to mention in their testing servers, if they find something OP they fix it BEFORE it gets released.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Karl McLain.5604 said:

@kKagari.6804 said:What I'm saying is:

If the interaction between MSS and DS is fixed, there should be no reason for the striking component on MSS to not stack.

If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go

up

from where it's currently at.

Unless everything is going to take a similar dps hit next patch, its unacceptable. Scourge is not a heavy support in PvE. Nothing you can do with barrier will ever make it good support. Scourge support is comparable to a full dps tempest dropping a water overload. It's next to nothing.

Scourge has minimum support. Nothing that a group can really rely on to protect or empowet the group like druids, chronos, and warriors.The excuse that having two lifebars eats at the power budget doesn't exist. It doesn't have the evades and blocks like other classes. There is no justification for scourge not being a top tier DSP spec when fully geared for that and played properly.

[Zefiris.8297]

@Swiftwynd.1685 said:

@Zefiris.8297 said:So, would your server take a Scourge for a druid spot in general?Would they do this for non-training runs?

I am not keeping on asking you this to be mean, it's a serious question based on my own experiences that suggested less so. I am one of the scourge players that originally wanted to support on the class (i am not even a fan of the DPS role!), yet never had the chance to try, because "not druid", that's why I am asking.

We absolutely are fine with Support Scourge and i play it often. Only bosses we'd really just stick to meta druids is Gorse, and KC if your dps players arent solid.

Do you use them instead of a Druid? Would this be full magis with monk runes?

(Again, just being honestly curious here. I haven't been able to use that kind of gear on scourge in a group setting due to groups saying "no"). And seeing that I am on your discord, mayhaps I can actually get to use it there.

[Conncept.7638]

@"Karl McLain.5604" said:Manifest Sand Shade is not expected to activate on each pulse of Desert Shroud, but instead activate on each activation of a shade ability. The previous functionality, while strong, was unintentional. We'll be looking to add some power back into the kit in the next balance iteration (which was not today :P ), but needed to fix this bug as soon as possible. We'll also probably remove the 'spend some of your life force' from the description of MSS.Thanks for the well-worded question!

-Karl

But... that doesn't make any sense. It's desert shrouds version of the auto attack.

If manifest sand shade doesn't activate on each pulse, then desert shrouds version of the "number one shroud skill" found on the base necromancer will have so few attacks per second compared to the base class that anything from the base class that procs off the shroud number one skill will be completely and utterly useless, unless those procs are buffed up enough to make up that difference, in which case each of those procs would then become overpowered on the base class.

There is no winning here for the balance team unless the necro has a number one skill that procs at a similar rate to an auto attack, otherwise balancing in favor of either the base class or the specialization leads to disaster.

[nintama.9436]

First, I am more disappointed that the change went undocumented than the dps drop. Which make me wonder would we receive any power back if no one has called it out. I don't see any reason for not including a bug fix in the notes. And this is not the first time.

Second, I do agree that some of the bugs are too powerful. Shade F5 will give scourge full control of the point in pvp and no one can do anything about it. However, for other game modes, I am not sure. I don't need to explain more on PvE since the majority already mentioned it. WvW is a 50-50 for me. The skill and trait is strong, but I do think WvW need a strong AoE that punish stack trying to stay too long in it. With all the new defensive gears and runes, the current state of WvW reward quantity over quality. Before HoT there are front line, back line, and pick team in wvw where individual position is important. Now, everything is just a big stack roll over everything. Assassin classes like thief or ranger have no impact on big team fight. I may be wrong, but hardly seen any good organize team fight in wvw for 2-3 years.

Finally, I am not sure what are you going to give to scourge, but please take time and balance it properly. Please don't just add bleeding to improve dmg and call it a day like deathly chill.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

@Zefiris.8297 said:

@Swiftwynd.1685 said:

@Zefiris.8297 said:So, would your server take a Scourge for a druid spot in general?Would they do this for non-training runs?

I am not keeping on asking you this to be mean, it's a serious question based on my own experiences that suggested less so. I am one of the scourge players that originally wanted to support on the class (i am not even a fan of the DPS role!), yet never had the chance to try, because "not druid", that's why I am asking.

We absolutely are fine with Support Scourge and i play it often. Only bosses we'd really just stick to meta druids is Gorse, and KC if your dps players arent solid.

Do you use them instead of a Druid? Would this be full magis with monk runes?

(Again, just being honestly curious here. I haven't been able to use that kind of gear on scourge in a group setting due to groups saying "no"). And seeing that I am on your discord, mayhaps I can actually get to use it there.

Plenty of options but mine is leadership runes with full minstrels. Caps boon duration while still having great healing and plenty of life force generation. Transfusion + Regen + Life From Death + Barrier is fantastic effective healing per second, and any condi heavy fight just becomes a boon conversion fest. The revive potential is the best in the entire game as well to cover up any serious mechanic failures which even experienced raiders make from time to time.

We have even used it as the cps and healer role merged into one. As long as group has a source of fury, the damage difference is minimal since you free up another slot to play dps. Other groups cps can double banner in this comp type.

[Jaya.2760]

@Swiftwynd.1685 said:

@Zefiris.8297 said:

@Swiftwynd.1685 said:

@Zefiris.8297 said:So, would your server take a Scourge for a druid spot in general?Would they do this for non-training runs?

I am not keeping on asking you this to be mean, it's a serious question based on my own experiences that suggested less so. I am one of the scourge players that originally wanted to support on the class (i am not even a fan of the DPS role!), yet never had the chance to try, because "not druid", that's why I am asking.

We absolutely are fine with Support Scourge and i play it often. Only bosses we'd really just stick to meta druids is Gorse, and KC if your dps players arent solid.

Do you use them instead of a Druid? Would this be full magis with monk runes?

(Again, just being honestly curious here. I haven't been able to use that kind of gear on scourge in a group setting due to groups saying "no"). And seeing that I am on your discord, mayhaps I can actually get to use it there.

Plenty of options but mine is leadership runes with full minstrels. Caps boon duration while still having great healing and plenty of life force generation. Transfusion + Regen + Life From Death + Barrier is fantastic effective healing per second, and any condi heavy fight just becomes a boon conversion fest. The revive potential is the best in the entire game as well to cover up any serious mechanic failures which even experienced raiders make from time to time.

We have even used it as the cps and healer role merged into one. As long as group has a source of fury, the damage difference is minimal since you free up another slot to play dps. Other groups cps can double banner in this comp type.

Yesterday our 2nd druid couldn't raid in our static group and i replaced him as a supportscourge (seraphgear with monkrunes) and they were really surprised how smooth anything went. The Bersi-eles/thief in my subgroup said that the nether had such a relaxed time while pulling of their full dps-rota in gorse-cc-phase^^. Yes, my subgroup didn't had spotter/spirits, but on the other hand they had higher scholar-uptime through barrier. All in all it was a very nice expirience, i'm just hoping we'll get some unique buffs like GotL so that we would be welcomed outside of static groups :)

[Zefiris.8297]

@Swiftwynd.1685 said:Plenty of options but mine is leadership runes with full minstrels. Caps boon duration while still having great healing and plenty of life force generation. Transfusion + Regen + Life From Death + Barrier is fantastic effective healing per second, and any condi heavy fight just becomes a boon conversion fest. The revive potential is the best in the entire game as well to cover up any serious mechanic failures which even experienced raiders make from time to time.

We have even used it as the cps and healer role merged into one. As long as group has a source of fury, the damage difference is minimal since you free up another slot to play dps. Other groups cps can double banner in this comp type.

Isn't that causing conflicts with your tank? Is there a specific reason for minstrels, or is it just the set you're sharing with your Chrono (asking since Leadership + minstrel immediately sounds like Chrono)? Would make sense to me, a whole set for a scourge alone is probably hard to justify.

How about a mainly Seraph set? Using Rune of Durability/Water and Sigil of Concentration, you're maxing boon duration, can mix a bit of Magi gear in, while keeping toughness low. Using something like Staff/ X+Torch does get a good chunk of regeneration and might.

It doesn't sound bad overall, but at the same time not good enough for groups not as nice as your discord, unfortunately. I think I'm still hoping for balance to fix up Scourge to be more attractive in PVE, though I'd certainly try to run such a scourge in your discord, if in your specific case it helps the group more than my druid would.Just wish the usefulness would have a bit more wide a scope in PVE!

[Exqq.7451]

@Jaya.2760 said:

@Swiftwynd.1685 said:

@Zefiris.8297 said:

@Swiftwynd.1685 said:

@Zefiris.8297 said:So, would your server take a Scourge for a druid spot in general?Would they do this for non-training runs?

I am not keeping on asking you this to be mean, it's a serious question based on my own experiences that suggested less so. I am one of the scourge players that originally wanted to support on the class (i am not even a fan of the DPS role!), yet never had the chance to try, because "not druid", that's why I am asking.

We absolutely are fine with Support Scourge and i play it often. Only bosses we'd really just stick to meta druids is Gorse, and KC if your dps players arent solid.

Do you use them instead of a Druid? Would this be full magis with monk runes?

(Again, just being honestly curious here. I haven't been able to use that kind of gear on scourge in a group setting due to groups saying "no"). And seeing that I am on your discord, mayhaps I can actually get to use it there.

Plenty of options but mine is leadership runes with full minstrels. Caps boon duration while still having great healing and plenty of life force generation. Transfusion + Regen + Life From Death + Barrier is fantastic effective healing per second, and any condi heavy fight just becomes a boon conversion fest. The revive potential is the best in the entire game as well to cover up any serious mechanic failures which even experienced raiders make from time to time.

We have even used it as the cps and healer role merged into one. As long as group has a source of fury, the damage difference is minimal since you free up another slot to play dps. Other groups cps can double banner in this comp type.

Yesterday our 2nd druid couldn't raid in our static group and i replaced him as a supportscourge (seraphgear with monkrunes) and they were really surprised how smooth anything went. The Bersi-eles/thief in my subgroup said that the nether had such a relaxed time while pulling of their full dps-rota in gorse-cc-phase^^. Yes, my subgroup didn't had spotter/spirits, but on the other hand they had higher scholar-uptime through barrier. All in all it was a very nice expirience, i'm just hoping we'll get some unique buffs like GotL so that we would be welcomed outside of static groups :)

How much damage is GotL worth and what percentage of the time do you lose Scholar vs the benefit of higher Scholar uptime, I guess? This could be a neat way to look at things but you will never ever see someone even think about it since it compares test DPS vs actual DPS etc. Kind of like the idea though that you are saying.

For your run, what was the change in the personal DPS of the players compared to running with the druid?

[mygamingid.5816]

@Jaya.2760 said:Yesterday our 2nd druid couldn't raid in our static group and i replaced him as a supportscourge (seraphgear with monkrunes) and they were really surprised how smooth anything went. The Bersi-eles/thief in my subgroup said that the nether had such a relaxed time while pulling of their full dps-rota in gorse-cc-phase^^. Yes, my subgroup didn't had spotter/spirits, but on the other hand they had higher scholar-uptime through barrier. All in all it was a very nice expirience, i'm just hoping we'll get some unique buffs like GotL so that we would be welcomed outside of static groups :)

Someone contact all PUG Raiders and get me a link to the Golem DPS charts! We’ve got first-degree heresy in this thread! I need qT and DnT in here, stat!

Good on you and yours, Jaya.2760. The raiding community is bound up tighter than a fat man at a cheese festival. Maybe this’ll help loosen things up.

[Zefiris.8297]

Scholar uptime cannot be calculated that well:

• It depends on the group - if nobody uses scholar, scholar uptime does nothing for the group
• It depends on the damage the boss does to the scholar user: If the scholar user is not damaged, or is not damaged significantly enough,then protecting their scholar does nothing

But even if it is, the elephant in the room is that, even if we assume that everyone in the group uses scholar, and that Scourge turns 0% uptime into 100% uptime (best case), we're still only reaching the effectiveness of a single Spirit of Frost. Druid still has GOTL (on average +7% damage, from what I read), Spirit of the Sun, and Spotter on top of it, as well as highly functional mass revives that tend to be better than Transfusion in several fights due to added benefits (Xera reviving etc - teleporting to the scourge can be just as good as it can be bad, it clumps up defeated players and primes them for a targetted AOE from the boss - seen that often in Fractals, where teleporting three downed players on my reaper would be followed up by an AOE that'd undo the whole thing).

But I don't want to badmouth the scholar idea too much, especially since I think that the overall idea has merit. If Scourge were to get an actual supportive buff (Let's call it "Grace of the Sand", which is a renamed Grace of the Land, where players can only have five stacks of both buffs combined) on top of it, it might actually be enough to justify the spec in regular groups. Just in a different way. Druid shows that it doesn't take much [And, for added fairness, one'd want Healing Tempest to also get a Grace of the Waves, I think - sure would be nice to open up that healer role more for regular play!]

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Well, Scholar buffs < Grace of the Land, since Scholar only buffs Power damage while Grace also buffs condition damage. Sure, maintaining both is better, but Scholar runes have become decidedly less popular now since condition damage is overall higher on raid bosses, and Scholar is a godawful runeset for that.

[Odysseus.6317]

In summary the necromancer dead : D

[Swiftwynd.1685]

@Jaya.2760 said:

@Swiftwynd.1685 said:

@Zefiris.8297 said:

@Swiftwynd.1685 said:

@Zefiris.8297 said:So, would your server take a Scourge for a druid spot in general?Would they do this for non-training runs?

I am not keeping on asking you this to be mean, it's a serious question based on my own experiences that suggested less so. I am one of the scourge players that originally wanted to support on the class (i am not even a fan of the DPS role!), yet never had the chance to try, because "not druid", that's why I am asking.

We absolutely are fine with Support Scourge and i play it often. Only bosses we'd really just stick to meta druids is Gorse, and KC if your dps players arent solid.

Do you use them instead of a Druid? Would this be full magis with monk runes?

(Again, just being honestly curious here. I haven't been able to use that kind of gear on scourge in a group setting due to groups saying "no"). And seeing that I am on your discord, mayhaps I can actually get to use it there.

Plenty of options but mine is leadership runes with full minstrels. Caps boon duration while still having great healing and plenty of life force generation. Transfusion + Regen + Life From Death + Barrier is fantastic effective healing per second, and any condi heavy fight just becomes a boon conversion fest. The revive potential is the best in the entire game as well to cover up any serious mechanic failures which even experienced raiders make from time to time.

We have even used it as the cps and healer role merged into one. As long as group has a source of fury, the damage difference is minimal since you free up another slot to play dps. Other groups cps can double banner in this comp type.

Yesterday our 2nd druid couldn't raid in our static group and i replaced him as a supportscourge (seraphgear with monkrunes) and they were really surprised how smooth anything went. The Bersi-eles/thief in my subgroup said that the nether had such a relaxed time while pulling of their full dps-rota in gorse-cc-phase^^. Yes, my subgroup didn't had spotter/spirits, but on the other hand they had higher scholar-uptime through barrier. All in all it was a very nice expirience, i'm just hoping we'll get some unique buffs like GotL so that we would be welcomed outside of static groups :)

And thats the thing, people really overestimate their ability to do their full rotations in a non-golem setting, losing scholar buffs, or literally being downed and having to revive people wastes so much actual, functional dps.

Glad you also had a great experience!