Why is this allowed

[Ragnar.4257]

Imagine thinking that Holo is fine, and the problem is everything else.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Ragnar.4257 said:I mean, if you main Holo, I can see why you would think a zerker spec can't be killed 1v1.

Nice try, but I play Core Engineer. Which is considered to be not very good. Its still unkillable in a 1v1.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@"bethekey.8314" said:

Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

For those that don't want to watch the clip:

• From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
• The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

Holos sustain isnt even particularly good though. Thats not the issue. The issue is that damage is currently too low across the board. Everyone goes full zerk because you cant be killed in a 1v1 even as full zerk. Even bloody zerker thief is now "tanky". Just increase damage by 20-30% across the board (And Holos by less, though Id undo the grenade nerfs at the very least), and Holo is probably fine. And if not, you can go from there.

This will put is right back where we were before the patch with people exploding after a single burst, turning it back into whoever jumps the other first. Thief isn't considered tanky because damage is so low, it's because of Shadow Arts giving it massive stealth uptime on top of its top tier mobility, meaning good thief players can not only disengage a fight they don't want, they can just stealth afterwards and ensure even other thief players can't kill them.

A, no it wont, B, that wasnt even true pre-patch. Thief is tanky because damage is low. Im not talking about stealth here (its useless for defense anyway). Nor am I talking about running away. Im talking about a thief just staying in a fight scrapping it out. They

should

be blown up immediately, but now? They just dont die. The damage isnt there.

Both your A and B are just patently false. Thief -had- to spec into vitality because going full glass put you at risk of being legit one shot. No thief build is 'scrapping it out' in a fight unless you're a dueling build, you still die if you try to brawl with things that aren't mesmer or something else the specific build counters. Thief was and still is a +1, if you're duking it out head on, you're up against people who don't know what they're doing.

Stealth is useless for defense? Odd, people claim it's worthless offensively too. It seems nobody really knows what it's good for despite being one of the single strongest mechanics in the game and SA is used in pretty much every viable thief build. Thief doesn't die because it can pick its fights, with damage lower you just have a chance to react and disengage before instantly dying. This is also off topic.

[UNOwen.7132]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:

@"bethekey.8314" said:

Some hyperbole going on in this thread. If you're against high nade burst, you're against this too. Nerf warrior @Lighter.5631 ?

For those that don't want to watch the clip:

• From full health to 0, I died in ~1 second.
• The hits were for 8450, 3414, 3639, and 3478 for a total of 18981.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:I think you misunderstand, its not multiple hits. Its 1 attack. So yes, he stood "still" and took 1 attack to lose 9100 health.

Actually, it is multiple hits, but maybe you mean 1 button press? Also, saying it's 1 thing alone is grossly misrepresenting what it takes to get high nade barrage damage.

except this warrior build will get farmed all day with less then 10% uptime in any plat game, while holo can possibly 1v2 with the same build in the screenshot.

see, this is the point people miss. it's not the nade dmg that's the issue, it's the fact holo has it and still has nuts sustain.

if holo was as squishy as zerk, it would be fine. it needs it's sustain gutted. holo is supposed to be burst, scrapper is supposed to be tanky.

so we gotta kill holo's sustain, so it can never 1v2 again.

Holos sustain isnt even particularly good though. Thats not the issue. The issue is that damage is currently too low across the board. Everyone goes full zerk because you cant be killed in a 1v1 even as full zerk. Even bloody zerker thief is now "tanky". Just increase damage by 20-30% across the board (And Holos by less, though Id undo the grenade nerfs at the very least), and Holo is probably fine. And if not, you can go from there.

This will put is right back where we were before the patch with people exploding after a single burst, turning it back into whoever jumps the other first. Thief isn't considered tanky because damage is so low, it's because of Shadow Arts giving it massive stealth uptime on top of its top tier mobility, meaning good thief players can not only disengage a fight they don't want, they can just stealth afterwards and ensure even other thief players can't kill them.

A, no it wont, B, that wasnt even true pre-patch. Thief is tanky because damage is low. Im not talking about stealth here (its useless for defense anyway). Nor am I talking about running away. Im talking about a thief just staying in a fight scrapping it out. They

should

be blown up immediately, but now? They just dont die. The damage isnt there.

Both your A and B are just patently false. Thief -had- to spec into vitality because going full glass put you at risk of being legit one shot. No thief build is 'scrapping it out' in a fight unless you're a dueling build, you still die if you try to brawl with things that aren't mesmer or something else the specific build counters. Thief was and still is a +1, if you're duking it out head on, you're up against people who don't know what they're doing.

Except, Thief used Berserkers amulet. Now it did usually run Rune of Divinity, but its not like you werent at a risk of still being oneshot. Divinity was there just in case (and you had no need for more damage). Thief isnt scrapping it out because its a very poor use of its time and tools. But, if it were to scrap out, it does not die. Nothing dies. I played bloody meme one-shot Photonic Blasting Module Holo with Firearms and Explosives, and I still did not die. Damage is so low even meme glass cannon builds dont die unless you royally screw up. Any actually viable build? You can mess up hard. You wont die until youre outnumbered.

Stealth is useless for defense? Odd, people claim it's worthless offensively too. It seems nobody really knows what it's good for despite being one of the single strongest mechanics in the game and SA is used in pretty much every viable thief build. Thief doesn't die because it can pick its fights, with damage lower you just have a chance to react and disengage before instantly dying. This is also off topic.

Its good for offense, actually. Out of combat to prevent the enemy from realising theyre about to be ganked, activates stealth attacks, and of course, if youre not a thief, hides cast times. Its arguable that its one of the single strongest mechanics in the game. Id place it below a lot of mechanics. All defensive ones, teleports, and CC, for sure. SA is used in every viable thief build because its the most reliable damage traitline. Not because of what it does for stealth, because what it does for stealth is pretty much irrelevant. It gives you a movement speed boost in stealth. You only stay in stealht out of combat, where it gives you a grand total of 9 movement speed over the perma swiftness you already have. It increases the duration of stealth skills. Except you dont stay in stealth for max duration unless youre out of combat, and if youre out of combat, youre using BP+ Heartseeker. Which is unaffected.

[Teb.6980]

@"Lighter.5631" said:

what's balance, i think it does not exist in this game.

killshot can barely do 7k on tier 3 with for great jutice and on my mark combined.

Bro, bro...I'm a holo main hereI don't use grenades, too low. Too much dmg for little skillConsider the February nerfs.They left grenades 100% untouchedThat is an indirect 33% dmg buffRecently they got like a 10% dmg nerf.Still stands like they were buffed in february. Grenades and several other overlooked dmg coefficients.lolIt shouldn't exist at allIt was simply not paid proper attention

EDIT: Do you guys notice how the dmg per grenade increased? This was supposed to happen over several seconds if you consider the design of the blasting powder spec and how most engis can deliver like 1 explosion per 1 second. The count of grenades is absurd if you consider that fact.Also, the holo was retarded. A decent holo will first use corona for vuln then apply the big damage. But as you can see it's so much it doesn't even matter.A really smart nerf to grenades that doesn't target other explosives would be adding a 0.5 internal cooldown to [steel-Packed powder], leaving e.g. mortar unaffected but still having grenades hit many times, with vuln proportional to other explosives