Raise the sell price limit on the trading post

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Have there been an increase it buy listings for 10K? The amount of players creating buy listings to push up to the existing trading price would have to be significantly larger than it is now. You also have to realize that the number of players who have an excess of 10K gold is fairly small. What you're suggesting that would happen realistically wouldn't.Sure, the amount of buyers would not increase by a lot in absolute numbers, but then there's not a lot of buyers currently. Even a small number of players would still be a huge increase percenatewise.

Not really unless you're expecting the number of players who refuse to trade outside the TP, and who have not already put in a 10K buy listing, to rival everyone who currently have buy listings and/or trade outside of the TP. Unlikely.

And no, not everyone puts a buy order at 10k - with the amount of buy orders that are already in place, and the extremely limited supply, any order put now would need to wait for years to be fulfilled, so there's really no point in doing it.

Which is a flaw due to the existing price cap.

It's highly unlikely that players are going to be willing to pay more than the existing price simply because the cap is removed.They would not do it because the cap would be removed. They would have to do it because they would be competing against more other potential buyers.

Which would be through buy listings and it's a bit absurd to believe that it would skyrocket and surpass the existing trading price.I don't know whether it would skyrocket, but i am sure it

would

surpass the current prices.

At this point we can't really be sure which of us is right, but that only brings us back to the original point - no, we

don't

have any agreement on if/how cap removal would affect prices.

This is something we're never going to agree on.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:This is something we're never going to agree on.And that was the point of my original post.

[Sobx.1758]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Have there been an increase it buy listings for 10K? The amount of players creating buy listings to push up to the existing trading price would have to be significantly larger than it is now. You also have to realize that the number of players who have an excess of 10K gold is fairly small. What you're suggesting that would happen realistically wouldn't.Sure, the amount of buyers would not increase by a lot in absolute numbers, but then there's not a lot of buyers currently. Even a small number of players would still be a huge increase percenatewise. And no, not everyone puts a buy order at 10k - with the amount of buy orders that are already in place, and the extremely limited supply, any order put now would need to wait for years to be fulfilled, so there's really no point in doing it.

Yup, there's no reason to do it. On the other hand I'm not sure how the number of buyers would drastically (even %wise) increase seeing how people don't have 10k++ gold to throw around IF they already can't look for an information outside of the game. The moment someone has that amount of gold ingame and is interested in buying the infusion/s, it's pretty easy to understand why there aren't any going through tp and see how out-of-tp trading works with a simple google search just including the name of the infusion. It's not some kind of guarded information only chosen ones come by.

[Astralporing.1957]

Not everyone that has over 10k gold is a trade baron or a hardcore farmer. Some just got a few lucky drops, and others might be casual credit card warriors - there's quite a number of whales that are like that. And not everyone that has over 10k gold and is an adept of game-related google-fu would consider going off-market for a transation. How big percentagewise are that groups i have no idea, but, considering how small the group of players aiming for infusions in off-market sites is, even a small absolute number of players might make a big difference.

[Psientist.6437]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Not everyone that has over 10k gold is a trade baron or a hardcore farmer. Some just got a few lucky drops, and others might be casual credit card warriors - there's quite a number of whales that are like that. And not everyone that has over 10k gold and is an adept of game-related google-fu would consider going off-market for a transation. How big percentagewise are that groups i have no idea, but, considering how small the group of players aiming for infusions in off-market sites is, even a small absolute number of players might make a big difference.

The trade service limit will create frustrated demand and frustrated supply. This frustrated supply could be bigger or simply more motivated than frustrated demand. We can map how the trade service limit would influence the price of infusions traded in the gray market but we can't assign real figures.

More importantly than determining if the trade service limit raises or lowers the price available on the gray market is determining if it is worth influencing the price for the benefit of the gray market.

You focused on showing how the trade service limit could lower the price available on the gray market. Would you explain whether you think this benefits the player base?

[Psientist.6437]

Sobx, Your last post may get removed as well. Your post was likely removed because it could have been read as advocating for or instructing how to use the gray market. Consider it a demonstration of just how absurd the trade service limit is.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Psientist.6437 said:You focused on showing how the trade service limit could lower the price available on the gray market. Would you explain whether you think this benefits the player base?Higher prices of those items benefit only a very small amount of players - mostly trade barons. And they don't really need any more benefits - they are already rich. The droprates of those items are so low that any theoretical benefit it might have for lucky new/poor players are just that - theoretical. They may benefit a few individual people, but there's no gain at all for the community.

I don't think that items with prices above current trade limit are a benefit for the playerbase at all.

[Psientist.6437]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:You focused on showing how the trade service limit could lower the price available on the gray market. Would you explain whether you think this benefits the player base?Higher prices of those items benefit only a very small amount of players - mostly trade barons. And they don't really need any more benefits - they are already rich. The droprates of those items are so low that any theoretical benefit it might have for lucky new/poor players are just that - theoretical. They may benefit a few individual people, but there's no gain at all for the

community

.

I don't think that items with prices above current trade limit are a benefit for the playerbase at all.

That doesn't answer the question I asked but I have also never wanted you to defend the position you were staking out.

What you did answer ignores everything I modeled and the model conforms to basic market theory.

@Astralporing.1957 said:Not everyone that has over 10k gold is a trade baron or a hardcore farmer. Some just got a few lucky drops, and others might be casual credit card warriors - there's quite a number of whales that are like that. And not everyone that has over 10k gold and is an adept of game-related google-fu would consider going off-market for a transation. How big percentagewise are that groups i have no idea, but, considering how small the group of players aiming for infusions in off-market sites is, even a small absolute number of players might make a big difference.

Are you saying that this demand for rare, expensive, frivolous items doesn't efficiently lower the gold to gem exchange rate or produce large amounts of materials? Would you define what you mean by community ? I may be confused but your definition seems to leave out a lot of people.

edit:

If the trade service limit can not be raised or adapted to, then drop rates should be raised. It is absurd that posts explaining the gray market in barely too much detail can be removed from the forums yet the supply and demand of the most expensive item must go to the gray market to get close to market value.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Psientist.6437" said:If the trade service limit can not be raised or adapted to, then drop rates should be raised.

Indeed.

It is absurd that posts explaining the gray market in barely too much detail can be removed from the forums yet the supply and demand of the most expensive item must go to the gray market to get close to market value.

Well to be fair, the maximum supported "market value" an item can have is 10k gold. Anyone pretending an item is "valued" more than that is already trying to circumvent a set limit by the developers.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Psientist.6437 said:Are you saying that this demand for rare, expensive, frivolous items doesn't efficiently lower the gold to gem exchange rate or produce large amounts of materials?Yes. At least in the case of those items. There's not enough of them to affect the market in the way you think they do. Especially since a lot of the people that buy them are tp barons, that get their wealth by trading, not by producing anything.

Would you define what you mean by community ? I may be confused but your definition seems to leave out a lot of people.I mean the high cost of infusions benefits only the people that dropped and sold one. The flippers are currently benefitting not from the high price, but from the massive price difference between tp and gray market. And since the drop rates are so extremely low, it means those items having high price benefits only a handful of people. Everyone else either simply doesn't get any benefit (if they don't care about the item) or loses (because it would cost them more to buy the item).

@Psientist.6437 said:If the trade service limit can not be raised or adapted to, then drop rates should be raised.Yes. And even if it theoretically could be raised or adapted, adjusting drop rates seem to be a better solution.

[Sobx.1758]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:If the trade service limit can not be raised or adapted to, then drop rates should be raised.

Indeed.

It is absurd that posts explaining the gray market in barely too much detail can be removed from the forums yet the supply and demand of the most expensive item must go to the gray market to get close to market value.

Well to be fair, the maximum supported "market value" an item can have is 10k gold. Anyone pretending an item is "valued" more than that is already trying to circumvent a set limit by the developers.

Nobody is "pretending" an item is valued more than 10k, it IS valued more than 10k and that's a fact.

[Psientist.6437]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Are you saying that this demand for rare, expensive, frivolous items doesn't efficiently lower the gold to gem exchange rate or produce large amounts of materials?Yes. At least in the case of

those

items. There's not enough of them to affect the market in the way you think they do. Especially since a lot of the people that buy them are tp barons, that get their wealth by trading,

not

by producing anything.

Would you define what you mean by

community

? I may be confused but your definition seems to leave out a lot of people.I mean the high cost of infusions benefits only the people that dropped and sold one. The flippers are currently benefitting not from the high price, but from the massive price difference between tp and gray market. And since the drop rates are so extremely low, it means those items having high price benefits only a handful of people. Everyone else either simply doesn't get any benefit (if they don't care about the item) or loses (because it would cost them more to buy the item).

@Psientist.6437 said:If the trade service limit can not be raised or adapted to, then drop rates should be raised.Yes. And even if it theoretically

could

be raised or adapted, adjusting drop rates seem to be a better solution.

I understand and respect wanting anything offered by the game to be affordable. The trade service limit creates something analogous to a bed sore on more than one of the studio's design pillars. Bed sores should be treated and I would support increasing the drop rate. I also think it is useful to use exclusive frivolous items to drive wealth exchange and studio revenue.

I am not going to press anymore. You started by arguing that supply is dominated by TP barons and now demand is as well. Demand is dominated by players willing to buy gems and veterans who have played GW2 for years as though it were a part time job. Demand is dominated by players adding value. Some of that value disappears as the drop rate increases. We don't have to get to far into economics to see the trade proposition of rare, expensive, frivolous items. The community trades exclusivity for one item for increased supply of many others.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Not everyone that has over 10k gold is a trade baron or a hardcore farmer. Some just got a few lucky drops, and others might be casual credit card warriors - there's quite a number of whales that are like that. And not everyone that has over 10k gold and is an adept of game-related google-fu would consider going off-market for a transation. How big percentagewise are that groups i have no idea, but, considering how small the group of players aiming for infusions in off-market sites is, even a small absolute number of players might make a big difference.

To buy infusions from TP, they need to look for that infusion specifically anyways. And as I said above, just a regular infusion search in google "reveals" threads explaining how/where people buy infusions off tp (FOR INGAME CURRENCY/ITEMS). You don't need to specifically look for hidden markets or even search for anything more than you'd do while using TP. Being a trade baron, hardcore farmer or even an outstanding google-master is far from needed as long as they actually wanted to buy the infusion in the first place. And if they didn't, then those infusions being on TP don't change anything about it.

I wonder why Anet can't step in and explain why that 10k gold limit is necessary for the game/tp/economy/coding/whatever in the first place, at which point they'd basically solve this thread if there really is an actual valid reason for keeping that ingame.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Psientist.6437" said:I understand and respect wanting anything offered by the game to be affordable. The trade service limit creates something analogous to a bed sore on more than one of the studio's design pillars. Bed sores should be treated and I would support increasing the drop rate. I also think it is useful to use exclusive frivolous items to drive wealth exchange and studio revenue.I agree, but i don't think those ultra-rare and ultra-costly infusions are best for that job. There are far better options for that.

I am not going to press anymore. You started by arguing that supply is dominated by TP barons and now demand is as well.I didn't say it is dominated by them. I said TP barons are a large part of both supply and demand. A large part of the trades is being done by shuffling the infusions around - there's a number of players that treat them not as vanity items, but purely as a trade investment.Similar problem we can see with Mystic Coins, by the way, where the real reason of their constant price increase lies not in their actual in-game uses (we've been told more than once that their actual consumption rate is significantly lower than the production rate - more of them are introduced to the game than removed from it), but in people treating them either as a long-term safe investment, or an additional type of currency.

Demand is dominated by players willing to buy gems and veterans who have played GW2 for years as though it were a part time job. Demand is dominated by players adding value. Some of that value disappears as the drop rate increases.Sure, demand may be dominated by those players, but not by much. Whenever i was checking the chak infusion situation in the past, i was constantly running in the situation that the person i see buying the infusion is the very same person i saw later selling it for significantly more. Some of the names tended to repeat a lot. And in practically all of the transactions i could see there was a trader on at least one side. I don't think i actually saw even one transaction that was being done between someone that actually dropped the infusion and someone that wanted to buy one for vanity.

We don't have to get to far into economics to see the trade proposition of rare, expensive, frivolous items. The community trades exclusivity for one item for increased supply of many others.

That works for items like Legendaries, where the value is created mainly by the cost of their components, or with items with "moderate" price and scarcity (as i see it, practically any infusion that is still being traded at below TP cap does this job far better). Ultra-rare items like chak infusion however are way too rare to have any significant impact on the market.

I mean, what is the average volume of trades for those infusions? How many gold per day changes hands due to them?(i tried to check, but the current situation seems a bit unstable, with the offers for chak infusions being extremely low - still, i saw only two filled within last two weeks, even at the massively reduced prices. I'd assume that at the old prices the amount of buyers would be even lower. If anyone has some more on-hand knowledge on the issue, please do correct me)

[Psientist.6437]

Apparently I am not finished pushing.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:I understand and respect wanting anything offered by the game to be affordable. The trade service limit creates something analogous to a bed sore on more than one of the studio's design pillars. Bed sores should be treated and I would support increasing the drop rate. I also think it is useful to use exclusive frivolous items to drive wealth exchange and studio revenue.I agree, but i don't think those ultra-rare and ultra-costly infusions are best for that job. There are far better options for that.

This is equivalent of saying that a car company should only make sedans because they have a better profit margin. It ignores the demand for light trucks that will never buy a sedan or is willing to buy both. Exclusive items create demand that can not be replaced. Thousands of years of retail of demonstrated the value of providing choices.

I am not going to press anymore. You started by arguing that supply is dominated by TP barons and now demand is as well.I didn't say it is dominated by them. I said TP barons are a large part of both supply and demand. A large part of the trades is being done by shuffling the infusions around - there's a number of players that treat them not as vanity items, but purely as a

trade investment

.Similar problem we can see with Mystic Coins, by the way, where the real reason of their constant price increase lies not in their actual in-game uses (we've been told more than once that their actual consumption rate is significantly lower than the production rate - more of them are introduced to the game than removed from it), but in people treating them either as a long-term safe investment, or an additional type of currency.

Demand is dominated by players willing to buy gems and veterans who have played GW2 for years as though it were a part time job. Demand is dominated by players adding value. Some of that value disappears as the drop rate increases.Sure, demand may be dominated by those players, but not by much. Whenever i was checking the chak infusion situation in the past, i was constantly running in the situation that the person i see buying the infusion is the very same person i saw later selling it for significantly more. Some of the names tended to repeat a lot. And in practically all of the transactions i could see there was a trader on at least one side. I don't think i actually saw even one transaction that was being done between someone that actually dropped the infusion and someone that wanted to buy one for vanity.

We don't have to get to far into economics to see the trade proposition of rare, expensive, frivolous items. The community trades exclusivity for one item for increased supply of many others.

That works for items like Legendaries, where the value is created mainly by the cost of their components, or with items with "moderate" price and scarcity (as i see it, practically any infusion that is still being traded at below TP cap does this job far better). Ultra-rare items like chak infusion however are way too rare to have any significant impact on the market.

I mean, what is the average volume of trades for those infusions? How many gold per day changes hands due to them?(i tried to check, but the current situation seems a bit unstable, with the offers for chak infusions being extremely low - still, i saw only two filled within last two weeks, even at the massively reduced prices. I'd assume that at the old prices the amount of buyers would be even lower. If anyone has some more on-hand knowledge on the issue, please do correct me)

The rest of this is just more of your conspiracy theory. How do you gather evidence about the natural movement of infusions when the trade service limit prevents their natural movement?!?!?! Whether you realize it or not, you are arguing that "TP barons" are inflating prices to sell to themselves?!?!!? How does this generate profit for TP barons?!?!?! Are exclusive infusions used like KP for raids?!?!? WTT show proof of TP barony. You have inflated the power and risk of TP traders until it blocks your ability to see the people who can afford to buy exclusive infusions. Your flimsy model depends on ignoring those players. It crumbles the moment you admit that TP barons wouldn't dominate the demand for exclusive infusions.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Sobx.1758" said:Nobody is "pretending" an item is valued more than 10k, it IS valued more than 10k and that's a fact.

According to who exactly? No item can be valued more than 10k because you cannot sell an item above 10k gold and that's the actual fact.

Good thing is we have a real life situation developing that is very similar to the one we see in game. NVIDIA launched their 3000 series graphics with a certain MSRP, yet due to the lack of supply they are rare enough that certain individuals can manipulate the market, buy the supply, and then resell the graphics card at an insane premium. According to you, those over priced graphic cards, sold outside regular shops, are determining the "value" of these cards? Just because some people are willing to pay an insane premium, because they enjoy being exploited, doesn't mean this is the value of an item. But I understand, market manipulation is a very profitable business and it's why people want to keep it up, and even "legalize" it in game, by removing the cap, that's like asking NVIDIA to allow stores to sell their graphics cards at any price they want, because "someone buys them at x3 the price outside the market, so let's make it legal for stores themselves to use such prices". Wonderful.

And if you take your time to check those "out of game" sale websites, you will find that it's the same people trading among themselves, creating an illusion that there is a demand for items and allowing players like yourself to come on forums and post non-sense about the value of those items. There is a guy who bought a Chak Egg Infusion for 25k gold and then resold it for 28k gold just a few days later. Such demand! Such "value" of those items! And not to mention the people that post and buy expensive infusions using accounts with less than 100 AP and posting "thank you for that Chak Egg Infusion" -mistersomeonewith.100AP.

[Vavume.8065]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Nobody is "pretending" an item is valued more than 10k, it IS valued more than 10k and that's a fact.

According to who exactly? No item can be valued more than 10k because you cannot sell an item above 10k gold and that's the actual fact.

This ^

[Psientist.6437]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Nobody is "pretending" an item is valued more than 10k, it IS valued more than 10k and that's a fact.

According to who exactly? No item can be valued more than 10k because you cannot sell an item above 10k gold and that's the actual fact.

Good thing is we have a real life situation developing that is very similar to the one we see in game. NVIDIA launched their 3000 series graphics with a certain MSRP, yet due to the lack of supply they are rare enough that certain individuals can manipulate the market, buy the supply, and then resell the graphics card at an insane premium. According to you, those over priced graphic cards, sold outside regular shops, are determining the "value" of these cards? Just because some people are willing to pay an insane premium, because they enjoy being exploited, doesn't mean this is the value of an item. But I understand, market manipulation is a very profitable business and it's why people want to keep it up, and even "legalize" it in game, by removing the cap, that's like asking NVIDIA to allow stores to sell their graphics cards at any price they want, because "someone buys them at x3 the price outside the market, so let's make it legal for stores themselves to use such prices". Wonderful.

And if you take your time to check those "out of game" sale websites, you will find that it's the same people trading among themselves, creating an illusion that there is a demand for items and allowing players like yourself to come on forums and post non-sense about the value of those items. There is a guy who bought a Chak Egg Infusion for 25k gold and then resold it for 28k gold just a few days later. Such demand! Such "value" of those items! And not to mention the people that post and buy expensive infusions using accounts with less than 100 AP and posting "thank you for that Chak Egg Infusion" -mistersomeonewith.100AP.

Nvidia set a price for their items, Arenanet doesn't set the price for anything traded on the BLTP. Arenanet provides the trade floor service so players can set the price. They aren't similar.

Obviously.

What would be the sense of keeping trade among a select group? How many TP barons do you think exist? This is just more conspiracy theory masquerading as logic.

"There is a guy who bought a Chak Egg Infusion for 25k gold and then resold it for 28k gold just a few days later. Such demand!"

What?!?!!? How does selling something for more than you paid evidence against demand?!?!? Let me guess, that person sold it to themselves or to a friend so that I would come here and make arguments based on centuries of economic thought.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Psientist.6437" said:Nvidia set a price for their items, Arenanet doesn't set the price for anything traded on the BLTP. Arenanet provides the trade floor service so players can set the price. They aren't similar.

Arenanet also sets the price for anything traded. It's "under 10k gold". In the end, they are indeed very similar, but you didn't get the argument. There was an argument on how the "value" of an item is determined. It goes like "it's as much as people are willing to pay for it". Using that same logic, if NVIDIA prices their graphics cards at 500$, if someone is willing to pay 1000$ for the same item, that's the "value" of the item. So again, they are the exact same situation. In both cases, the inflated value is NOT the actual "value" of the item, but is a product of market manipulation.

What?!?!!? How does selling something for more than you paid evidence against demand?!?!

Is it "demand" if 10 guys decide to trade among themselves to show the world that there is "demand" for their overpriced/manipulated items?

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Psientist.6437" said:This is equivalent of saying that a car company should only make sedans because they have a better profit margin.Try not to switch topics here. We were not talking about profit margins, but about economic impact and the benefits to the wider populace. In this context, as far as global economy is concerned, any impact rolls-royces might have is pretty much insignificant. And the only reason why they have any is because there's a factory somewhere that is producing them. There's no factory for chak infusions, and the high price on them benefits only the people that dropped them (and only if they decided to sell it instead of using it for themselves). And since the droprate is ridiculously low, there's only a handful of those players.

The rest of this is just more of your conspiracy theory. How do you gather evidence about the natural movement of infusions when the trade service limit prevents their natural movement?!?!?!I have looked at the places where they are currently traded. You might want to do so as well, in order to get some knowledge of the issue, instead of speaking from pure hypothetical theory.

Whether you realize it or not, you are arguing that "TP barons" are inflating prices to sell to themselves?!?!!?Yes, they are definitely inflating prices. Any time the infusion gets flipped, it does increase in price. And they do seem to get flipped a lot.

Think about it, if there's so much trades where at least one side is an intermediate trader that it's hard to find ones that are done between "producer" (the original owner) and the final buyer (the one that doesn't intend to resell it), it means that most of the infusions gets through at least one intermediary, often more, before it arrives at the final destination. How do you think it impacts the final price? How do you think it inflates the amount of transactions?

How does this generate profit for TP barons?!?!?!It elevates prices to higher levels, at the same time removing all cheaper sources. In a way, it is also a type of game. I assume each trader, when they buy the infusion, thinks that they will be eventually able to sell it for higher later - or at least at no loss (doesn't mean they're always right - when you play on the market, you do lose sometimes). It gets even more complicated when you realize that a lot of trades seem to be done in barter - it's extremely possible that both traders may end up thinking they were the winners of said transactions. That is possible because the items used for barter are often other similar rare infusions with highly arbitrary values that vary a lot between trades.

You have inflated the power and risk of TP traders until it blocks your ability to see the people who can afford to buy exclusive infusions. Your flimsy model depends on ignoring those players. It crumbles the moment you admit that TP barons wouldn't dominate the demand for exclusive infusions.I never said they dominate the demand. I said that the real amount of trades that takes place (the ones that end up with the infusion endng up in the hands of someone that does not intend to resell it) is significantly lower than the already extremely low amount of total trades of those infusions, because a significant number of trades are done through chains of intermediary traders.They don't dominate the demand. They inflate it.

Which you would know if you went and checked it for yourself.

But i will get back to one of my original questions for you. You were speaking so much about those infusions stimulating the economy, so i have to ask: do you know how many of these infusions are traded, on average, in, say, a week? What is the value of those trades? How that compares to other, cheaper infusions?

[Sobx.1758]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Nobody is "pretending" an item is valued more than 10k, it IS valued more than 10k and that's a fact.

According to who exactly? No item can be valued more than 10k because you cannot sell an item above 10k gold and that's the actual fact.

According to people that keep buying and selling those items for WAY more than 10k? :o

You have interesting take on what amounts to being a "fact". Apparently if something happens in a different way than you consider being "acceptable", it somehow makes that thing... not a fact? I'm seriously confused what you're trying to say here. We literally know that these items are being sold/traded for other ingame items with value totalling to way more than 10k gold, which is why we know that -in fact- those infusions are being valued by players to be worth more than 10k gold. That's the price they're being bought/sold for. Stop denying facts just because you don't like them.

Good thing is we have a real life situation developing that is very similar to the one we see in game. NVIDIA launched their 3000 series graphics with a certain MSRP, yet due to the lack of supply they are rare enough that certain individuals can manipulate the market, buy the supply, and then resell the graphics card at an insane premium. According to you, those over priced graphic cards, sold outside regular shops, are determining the "value" of these cards? Just because some people are willing to pay an insane premium, because they enjoy being exploited, doesn't mean this is the value of an item.

Yeah, that's a great thing. Now here's what happens: people buy out the stock and try reselling these cards. If someone thinks these cards are still worth it for them even at the increased price "because they absolutely need/want them now", then they buy them and that card sold for that amount of money has that particular value for the person that paid for it. That's a fact. Other people that don't value these cards at these prices.... don't buy them :O It's subjective and the item rarity is obviously part of it, if someone's getting aroused due to the item's rarity -be it ingame or not- then it's that particular person's "problem" to deal with. It doesn't change that these items are still sold/bought for that price.

But I understand, market manipulation is a very profitable business and it's why people want to keep it up, and even "legalize" it in game, by removing the cap, that's like asking NVIDIA to allow stores to sell their graphics cards at any price they want, because "someone buys them at x3 the price outside the market, so let's make it legal for stores themselves to use such prices". Wonderful.

Woah, so you understand people resell these items outside of tp for profit (all while negating their value that players are buying/selling them for btw), but fail to understand that new-er or uninformed players effectively keep getting scammed ingame because they sell their infusions for 10k instead of twice as much, simply boosting the gain of people that already resell them for profit anyways? Remove/raise the cap significantly and players selling those infusions through TP aren't getting scammed by the redundant cap set at the time when gold had much bigger value than it has now.

And now you seem to be suggesting I'm vouching for that change to somehow make profit out of it? xD If I wanted profit, I'd beg for the current limits to stay where "first-come-first-serve" 10k buy bids easly double/triple their gold with each resell lmao.

And if you take your time to check those "out of game" sale websites, you will find that it's the same people trading among themselves, creating an illusion that there is a demand for items and allowing players like yourself to come on forums and post non-sense about the value of those items. There is a guy who bought a Chak Egg Infusion for 25k gold and then resold it for 28k gold just a few days later. Such demand! Such "value" of those items! And not to mention the people that post and buy expensive infusions using accounts with less than 100 AP and posting "thank you for that Chak Egg Infusion" -mistersomeonewith.100AP.

Ah, so now they're not reselling for profit, but instead just keep making circles with the same infusions between themselves, ok.

[Psientist.6437]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:Nvidia set a price for their items, Arenanet doesn't set the price for anything traded on the BLTP. Arenanet provides the trade floor service so players can set the price. They aren't similar.

Arenanet also sets the price for anything traded. It's "under 10k gold". In the end, they are indeed very similar, but you didn't get the argument. There was an argument on how the "value" of an item is determined. It goes like "it's as much as people are willing to pay for it". Using that same logic, if NVIDIA prices their graphics cards at 500$, if someone is willing to pay 1000$ for the same item, that's the "value" of the item. So again, they are the exact same situation. In both cases, the inflated value is NOT the actual "value" of the item, but is a product of market manipulation.

What?!?!!? How does selling something for more than you paid evidence

against

demand?!?!

Is it "demand" if 10 guys decide to trade among themselves to show the world that there is "demand" for their overpriced/manipulated items?

Your argument makes sense if we redefine the term "sets the price". Under this new definition, the trade service limit "sets the price" the same way road signs control the weather. Gray markets emerge. Within the gray market for NVIDIA cards was calculating a real although relative to itself market value.

This isn't the real world. If the real world looked like Tyria we would all have a guaranteed income, access to affordable healthcare, education, housing. We are talking about the community wide effects of having expensive shiny auras.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Sobx.1758" said:According to people that keep buying and selling those items for WAY more than 10k? :o

Who is doing that? The TP barons and the manipulators buying and selling among themselves to provide the illusion that a market even exists? Sorry not buying it.

You have interesting take on what amounts to being a "fact".

Fact is maximum value for an item is 10k, as that's the limit. An item valued above that limit is irrelevant.

Yeah, that's a great thing.

We will have to disagree here. It's not a good thing to manipulate market price of a rare product. And here is why: it's not actually allowed as actual stores don't inflate their prices just because some people are willing to pay the higher price. Much like it's not allowed to put an item at above 10k gold, regardless if some people are willing to pay the higher price.

Woah, so you understand people resell these items outside of tp for profit (all while negating their value that players are buying/selling them for btw), but fail to understand that new-er or uninformed players effectively keep getting scammed ingame because they sell their infusions for 10k instead of twice as much, simply boosting the gain of people that already resell them for profit anyways? Remove/raise the cap significantly and players selling those infusions through TP aren't getting scammed by the redundant cap set at the time when gold had much bigger value than it has now.

Newer players are not actually "scammed" when they sell the items at 10k gold, they use the system as is. The players that are being scammed are those who think the items are worth above 10k gold and pay for it. Those are the ones being scammed here. The problem is the rarity of the items that allows the TP barons to manipulate the market in the first place. Increasing drop rates fixes the scammers.

Ah, so now they're not reselling for profit, but instead just keep making circles with the same infusions between themselves, ok.

Indeed that's how market manipulators work.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Psientist.6437" said:Your argument makes sense if we redefine the term "sets the price". Under this new definition, the trade service limit "sets the price" the same way road signs control the weather. Gray markets emerge. Within the gray market for NVIDIA cards was calculating a real although relative to itself market value.

You know how NVIDIA is gonna solve the supply problem of their graphics cards? By releasing more of them, so their price drops to the expected range. That's exactly what Arenanet should so as well, increase the drop rates of those items, so their price drops to expected levels (under 10k gold). Imagine if NVIDIA did what people are proposing here, "hey people buy them for 1000$, instead of their MSRP of 500$, let's sell them at that price ourselves!", this is what you are advocating here and we all know it's not the sensible thing to do.

[Psientist.6437]

These look like the same arguments you have been making.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:This is equivalent of saying that a car company should only make sedans because they have a better profit margin.Try not to switch topics here. We were not talking about profit margins, but about economic impact and the benefits to the wider populace. In this context, as far as global economy is concerned, any impact rolls-royces might have is pretty much insignificant. And the only reason why they have

any

is because there's a factory somewhere that is producing them. There's no factory for chak infusions, and the high price on them benefits only the people that dropped them (and only if they decided to sell it instead of using it for themselves). And since the droprate is ridiculously low, there's only a handful of those players.

I am using 'profit margin' as an analogy for 'community benefit'. I am speaking directly to your assertion that the benefit could be replaced. This isn't side-stepping.

The rest of this is just more of your conspiracy theory. How do you gather evidence about the natural movement of infusions when the trade service limit prevents their natural movement?!?!?!I have looked at the places where they are currently traded. You might want to do so as well, in order to get some knowledge of the issue, instead of speaking from pure hypothetical theory.

Whether you realize it or not, you are arguing that "TP barons" are inflating prices to sell to themselves?!?!!?Yes, they are definitely inflating prices. Any time the infusion gets flipped, it does increase in price. And they do seem to get flipped a lot.

Think about it, if there's so much trades where at least one side is an intermediate trader that it's hard to find ones that are done between "producer" (the original owner) and the final buyer (the one that doesn't intend to resell it), it means that most of the infusions gets through at least one intermediary, often more, before it arrives at the final destination. How do you think it impacts the final price? How do you think it inflates the amount of transactions?

How does this generate profit for TP barons?!?!?!It elevates prices to higher levels, at the same time removing all cheaper sources. In a way, it is also a type of game. I assume each trader, when they buy the infusion, thinks that they will be eventually able to sell it for higher later - or at least at no loss (doesn't mean they're always right - when you play on the market, you

do

lose sometimes). It gets even more complicated when you realize that a lot of trades seem to be done in barter - it's extremely possible that both traders may end up thinking they were the winners of said transactions. That is possible because the items used for barter are often other similar rare infusions with highly arbitrary values that vary a lot between trades.

You have inflated the power and risk of TP traders until it blocks your ability to see the people who can afford to buy exclusive infusions. Your flimsy model depends on ignoring those players. It crumbles the moment you admit that TP barons wouldn't dominate the demand for exclusive infusions.I never said they dominate the demand. I said that the

real

amount of trades that takes place (the ones that end up with the infusion endng up in the hands of someone that does not intend to resell it) is significantly lower than the already extremely low amount of total trades of those infusions, because a significant number of trades are done through chains of intermediary traders.They don't dominate the demand. They

inflate

it.

Which you would know if you went and checked it for yourself.

I don't think I am going to convince but I am going to give it another try. If TP barons are just flipping prices higher and not dominating demand then items must make themselves back into the hands of people who want to use them. That is the what your statement predicts. The hard case for your other argument predicts exclusive items are being used to cost signal being a TP baron and items never make it to those who want to use them. This is possible but demands we stop talking about TP barons using them as investments. Investments must must be sold for a profit. Investments makes themselves into the hands of people who want to use them. The people who want to use them generate community benefit when earning them.

But i will get back to one of my original questions for you. You were speaking so much about those infusions stimulating the economy, so i have to ask: do you know how many of these infusions are traded, on average, in, say, a week? What is the value of those trades? How that compares to other, cheaper infusions?

Yes. More than would ever exist without them and enough to cover the cost of people whining about expensive glowing effects. Your argument that infusions are trapped in the TP barony is the one that requires evidence and numbers. Mine conforms to thousands of years of commerce and economic theory crafting.