Kittymarks - The derpy girl's comprehensive benchmark

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Sykper.6583 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I don't know. Can we change qt site name to "overblown, not required benchmarks"?

I believe you mean

optimized

instead of overblown. As in, the most optimal numbers you can manage. And from their own website:

Please understand that we are a speed clear guild, our opinions are based around achieving the highest DPS possible on every boss. It is not necessary to be a class kitten to kill any boss; DPS checks in Guild Wars 2 Raids are very lenient. You and your team can do the job with just about every team comp. Just because we say something is not recommended doesn’t mean it’s not viable.

If you want to yell at someone,

yell at raid commanders who are expecting raider DPS in the 90th percentile for all bosses from all raiders

. Even hitting half or a bit more than half those numbers, from everyone across the raid, will score you a very natural and smooth kill.

so if kitty hits around 20k dps without using their builds its perfectly fine to be used in raids as I mentioned in many posts here

[Myhr.9108]

Ha, but it's all a community matter, it's all about finding people of the same mind as yourself. If you're being abused for basing yourself on Kitty's benchmarks, just find people that check it and decide if they want to raid with you or not. If you don't value Kitty's benchmarks, then you have another tool to refuse people in your group. Exactly like qT's benchmarks, it's people that use and abuse the tools, it' NOT the tools fault. If someone call him/herself "darker shade", isn't it more honest that calling themselves white, which is the natural tendency when you only give them the choice between calling themselves white or black?

You know, like I know, that the only real solution to form a performing team, is with a fixed comp. You will not raise the average level of raiding PUG unless you shame the less skilled players out of raids, which is quite egoist, if I may say so, given that the raids requirements are not that high in the first place. In other words, if you want results, it's on yourself. Or try to petition Anet for making raids harder.

It's exactly the same thing as dps-meters. They're not inherently bad, they're tools.

[Static.9841]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:You obviously refer to that "power DPS mesmer at Cairn"-video. Since you either don't read or you just choose to ignore

Actually, considering you don't read or chose to ignore, I was being quite clear when I said "The real reason you get hit by every mechanic in ALL of your videos " emphasis on all..... There is no video you have posted even yourself that shows any knowledge of mechanics or consistent attempts to react to and avoid them.

The real reason why Kitty stood at boss instead of going to circles at times in that mesmer video was because going to circles could have meant 5+ seconds of DPS-downtime while staying at the boss only meant 2.

Yeah? How much was the DPS loss in the many down states you had in that same video?

Kitty noticed that the damage from the big AoE only ate about 55% of her max HP when she first failed to find a safe green to move to (btw, the AoE wasn't the danger for Kitty there, but someone with agony ring coming from BEHIND her after that AoE, giving Kitty a nice agony hit and downing her 'cause it's so effin difficult for some people to keep some distance).

So that one person with agony was also the reason you kept allowing yourself to go down by ignoring greens constantly and expecting to get mad heals while you also kept distance from the group and the healers? Interesting......

And thus, she calculated that as long as she avoids most of the other damage, she can survive that AoE 'til healers come back to boss from greens. In long run, that might have given Kitty 1,5k more DPS. It worked for a long time, until Kitty got accidentally ported at 19% left. That wasn't lethal yet, Kitty didn't even get agony ring. What messed Kitty was the green after that. Kitty doesn't exactly know why she got knocked away from the green, but that knock-off gave her agony ring and THAT messed Kitty bad time. At 3% left, she still had 10,5k HP left before AoE and thus she'd have survived that AoE+1 agony tick and after that Kitty intended to distort for last 2%. But, Kitty miscalculated and got downed, though that wasn't even dangerous anymore at that point as boss would've anyway died before Kitty.

Your "calculations" like everything else you've tried to defend here is highly flawed. Again, you show you don't even understand simple boss mechanics. You got knocked off that green because Cairn teleports before going back to the middle and he knocked you off. Every single time you try and defend yourself, you reveal just how little knowledge you have on the subject of raiding and yet people are supposed to learn from you?

But it's not like Kitty would recommend doing that for anyone unless they can evade other damage well enough and also survive it by calculating the incoming damages quite accurately. And it does place a great trust on healers to be able to heal the melee-DDs properly. This time the trust was worth it. The keyword: Kitty could afford it.

No you couldn't afford it, you died over and over again and were nigh on useless to your team. It's not like you were even facetanking while using a decent kind of rotation, you had an entire kit you completely ignored and spammed the same few skills over and over again and don't even understand the holosmith abilities. Also, you're posting these videos apparently to show what a novice can do and now you're saying "I wouldn't recommend anyone do this", freaking pick one, this flip-flopping is ridiculous, you have no credibility at all.

[Joxer.6024]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:I think everyone's reached a point where the intent of this thread has been worked out.

Can we properly change the title now? Like 'Kittymarks or how a kitten girl does Raids' or something? We seem to all agree for the most part these videos aren't comprehensive enough, nor are they indicative of benchmarks set at a standard we would see in a normal environment. They are, however, proof that raids can be done with enough perseverance and skill as long as the group in total meets that threshold.

As even kitty agrees, she's not hitting her most optimal rotation for her unique builds, and yet she's able to show raid boss kills. That's fine, it's certainly not a benchmark but it's showing that the content can be done under those circumstances as well.

I don't know. Can we change qt site name to "overblown, not required benchmarks"?

Mate, that was uncalled for. This person was trying to come up with a "peaceful" solution to this drama fest and you attack. Shouldn't be surprised...

[CrustyBot.3564]

Outside of the Scourge Healer and PS Herald, just about every build run so far actually is meta or is quasi-meta to the point where it's accepted by most people anyway. So I don't really get why qT keeps getting brought up so much. Really most of her videos has her using less popular but still accepted builds in raids selfishly (intentionally ignoring mechanics for slight dps increase even at the detriment to the group, hanging off from the group forcing healers to divide their attention between stack and outliers, etc).

Or taking admittedly interesting build concepts, but then forcing others to carry the slack mechanics wise. Scourge Healer doesn't aid with the Rigom phase or Tantrum like a Druid can and the lack of buffs were a huge deficit. Condi Herald requires the other PS Warrior to bring both banners instead of say Wild Blow in the case of CC being needed, and you can't run green circles either while bring little cc yourself.

It's a case of people having to compensate for selfish play and I'd argue a dps meter is deficient in highlighting this. People can say that "Kitty clears and that's all that matters". But if everyone took the same attitude that she did, they wouldn't. Because her attitude to playing is selfish and self oriented. Which means it's bad to use her work as a resource for new and prospective or casual raiders. Especially since it will mean the others playing with them will be even more reliant on meta builds to get the job done.

I take far less issue with her playing Condi DD (which is as strong as the PoF specs despite what golem benchmarks say), than her downing 4 times and getting ressed yet refusing to even look at the same direction as an ally who has downed, or outright ignore mechanics because muh dps. Bad habits and selfish play regardless of whether it's done on a meta build or not, shouldn't be encouraged for casual players. Otherwise they will just engender the kind of toxicity certain people are paranoid over due to playing selfishly and being stubborn about doing so.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Joxer.6024 said:And just to add.....what is getting most fired up is this.Picture this: You post your vids and benchmarks and claim they are "viable" and anyone can do them and all that. I have been beating my head against my keyboard for weeks trying to get down the rotations I saw on qT (or any others) posts but with my crap Aussie ping and the fact that I am still a bit of a clicker, 56 yrs and type like a monkey ( all true by the way!) I then go "check out" what you have posted. "Hey, this stuff is cool, if she can do it I can too!!" Now, having learned your ways I then start to raid, yet I really suck at it or get abused in pugs or simply never get a run based on what I am playing but yet YOU posted and claimed they were fine? Now the raiding community has yet one more crappy "raider" in the mix, and that's not healthy as a whole for anyone, myself included.Now do you see (and your fans like Kheldorn) what the issue everyone is having? If its black, call it black, not some "darker shade". You post should have out the gate been about you, how you raid and the many times you "kitten it", period.And yes Kheldorn, she can do what she wants, play what she wants and post what she wants. But as others have said then don't get all kitten when you are called to the mat over how bad people think it is. I myself have been put in my place on these forums when I would have sworn I was right, until another suggestion or showed me otherwise.And Kitty...after 9 pages...what do you actually want from all this, truthfully?

But they are viable as long as played properly. Ofc the lower the potential DPS, the better the said build must be played to reach the required DPS to pull of it's weight. On top of that, Kitty will gather suitable builds for various roles into lists of what works for special roles for certain bosses when she's done with benchmarking (as Kitty needs to split this kind of project into phases due to sheer size of it).

But, for example, Kitty did that 14k DPS in PS warr-like role on condi mightbot herald while she did more than a couple fails during that boss. Which boss? No updrafts Gorseval, the highest DPS-check boss in this game. And what makes it fun: Kitty had benchmarked the said build at 21,5k. On top of that, we essentially 9-manned it as our teef died early. So, our DPSers still would have had room to do 14k each if thief had survived and pulled 13k.So. 14k average DPS per DPS/PS is enough for the highest DPS-check in this game. And pretty much any build Kitty benchmarks at 20k will be able to pull that if played properly. Though ofc, if the squad didn't have any quickness, alacrity or mightbots, then it would start becoming an issue that would require higher potential DPS to complete the boss but these days there's alternative buffers for those 3.If you'd have issues into getting squads with such, wouldn't it be more about the community's twisted perception of what's viable than the build (which is capable of doing enough damage) being bad? THIS is what Kitty finds as the main problem of GW2-PVE community at the moment.

@Sykper.6583 said:I think everyone's reached a point where the intent of this thread has been worked out.

Can we properly change the title now? Like 'Kittymarks or how a kitten girl does Raids' or something? We seem to all agree for the most part these videos aren't comprehensive enough, nor are they indicative of benchmarks set at a standard we would see in a normal environment. They are, however, proof that raids can be done with enough perseverance and skill as long as the group in total meets that threshold.

As even kitty agrees, she's not hitting her most optimal rotation for her unique builds, and yet she's able to show raid boss kills. That's fine, it's certainly not a benchmark but it's showing that the content can be done under those circumstances as well.

Not comprehensive enough? True, Kitty didn't get to test even all builds before they announced major balance patch. But...comprehensive: of large content or scope; wide-ranging.That Kitty's benchmarks already are and will further be.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I don't know. Can we change qt site name to "overblown, not required benchmarks"?

I believe you mean

optimized

instead of overblown. As in, the most optimal numbers you can manage. And from their own website:

Please understand that we are a speed clear guild, our opinions are based around achieving the highest DPS possible on every boss. It is not necessary to be a class kitten to kill any boss; DPS checks in Guild Wars 2 Raids are very lenient. You and your team can do the job with just about every team comp. Just because we say something is not recommended doesn’t mean it’s not viable.

If you want to yell at someone,

yell at raid commanders who are expecting raider DPS in the 90th percentile for all bosses from all raiders

. Even hitting half or a bit more than half those numbers, from everyone across the raid, will score you a very natural and smooth kill.

so if kitty hits around 20k dps without using their builds its perfectly fine to be used in raids as I mentioned in many posts here

The difference is that qts benchmarks are a point of referance at the top end of the scala. Every person with a semi-decent understanding of how benchmarks work (and who reads their disclaimer) knows this.

Kittys benchmarks are all over the place and such hard to place as point of referance. With one class she might be top 30%, with another mid 50% of the playerbase. The results inbetween classes are not coherent.

Raid leaders will expect performance according to the skill level of their raid(or at least they should). Obviously there will be bad raid leaders (as well as good raid leaders, but somehow those get mentioned more seldom) expecting unrealistic performance, that's not the fault of qt and the data they provide though.

I'm glad though that there finally is an understanding of where and how these benchmarks can be used and placed. Personally I do think they can be quite useful for new players to have a look at how difficult different classes might be to get started.

There is no point in demanding a 45k+ weaver benchmark/performance from a new player who has never touched elementalist for example. Again this is something any reasonable person capable of minimal rational thought should be able to realise anyway.

[Joxer.6024]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

If you'd have issues into getting squads with such, wouldn't it be more about the community's twisted perception of what's viable than the build (which is capable of doing enough damage) being bad? THIS is what Kitty finds as the main problem of GW2-PVE community at the moment.

On that right there I agree with you 100% Finally something that makes sense. B)

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Static.9841 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:You obviously refer to that "power DPS mesmer at Cairn"-video. Since you either don't read or you just choose to ignore

Actually, considering

you

don't read or chose to ignore, I was being quite clear when I said "The real reason you get hit by every mechanic in ALL of your videos " emphasis on all..... There is no video you have posted even yourself that shows any knowledge of mechanics or consistent attempts to react to and avoid them.

The real reason why Kitty stood at boss instead of going to circles at times in that mesmer video was because going to circles could have meant 5+ seconds of DPS-downtime while staying at the boss only meant 2.

Yeah? How much was the DPS loss in the many down states you had in that same video?

Kitty noticed that the damage from the big AoE only ate about 55% of her max HP when she first failed to find a safe green to move to (btw, the AoE wasn't the danger for Kitty there, but someone with agony ring coming from BEHIND her after that AoE, giving Kitty a nice agony hit and downing her 'cause it's so effin difficult for some people to keep some distance).

So that one person with agony was also the reason you kept allowing yourself to go down by ignoring greens constantly and expecting to get mad heals while you also kept distance from the group and the healers? Interesting......

And thus, she calculated that as long as she avoids most of the other damage, she can survive that AoE 'til healers come back to boss from greens. In long run, that might have given Kitty 1,5k more DPS. It worked for a long time, until Kitty got accidentally ported at 19% left. That wasn't lethal yet, Kitty didn't even get agony ring. What messed Kitty was the green after that. Kitty doesn't exactly know why she got

knocked

away from the green, but that knock-off gave her agony ring and THAT messed Kitty bad time. At 3% left, she still had 10,5k HP left before AoE and thus she'd have survived that AoE+1 agony tick and after that Kitty intended to distort for last 2%. But, Kitty miscalculated and got downed, though that wasn't even dangerous anymore at that point as boss would've anyway died before Kitty.

Your "calculations" like everything else you've tried to defend here is highly flawed. Again, you show you don't even understand simple boss mechanics. You got knocked off that green because Cairn teleports before going back to the middle and he knocked you off. Every single time you try and defend yourself, you reveal just how little knowledge you have on the subject of raiding and yet people are supposed to learn from you?

But it's not like Kitty would recommend doing that for anyone unless they can evade other damage well enough and also survive it by calculating the incoming damages quite accurately. And it does place a great trust on healers to be able to heal the melee-DDs properly. This time the trust was worth it. The keyword: Kitty could afford it.

No you couldn't afford it, you died over and over again and were nigh on useless to your team. It's not like you were even facetanking while using a decent kind of rotation, you had an entire kit you completely ignored and spammed the same few skills over and over again and don't even understand the holosmith abilities. Also, you're posting these videos apparently to show what a novice can do and now you're saying "I wouldn't recommend anyone do this", freaking pick one, this flip-flopping is ridiculous, you have no credibility at all.

Kitty doesn't even...you're making a prime example here of what degenerative generalizing means. So, Kitty never avoids blue, she never runs greens, she gets fried by Sab's first flamethrower, she eats every orb Xera throws...if we were to believe you. And Kitty did get spend half of that "power mesmer at Cairn" downed if we were to believe you (while Kitty got downed twice. Once because someone rushed to her with agony ring and once because she took risk at 3% left when boss still would've died before her. Otherwise Kitty survived easily through every AoE she ignored between 60%-3% and earned at least 20 secs of extra DPS uptime with it). Oh, and ofc Kitty got ported by every orange circle in that said vid if we were to believe you. But Kitty got ported once which is less than many other players at her skill level.

Can you even try to stick to facts, please?

[Static.9841]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:Can you even try to stick to facts, please?

Can you practice what you preach please. You got ported multiple times, you died multiple times, you ignored everything you could and speak of DPS loss when dying, being ported, not understanding WHY you got ported and using what I hesitate to even call a rotation.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I don't know. Can we change qt site name to "overblown, not required benchmarks"?

You do realise the flaw in your comment here is that a lot of Kittys builds are simply meta builds right? So you're defending and championing her, but then dumping on qT who she has taken builds from..... oh dear.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I don't know. Can we change qt site name to "overblown, not required benchmarks"?

I believe you mean

optimized

instead of overblown. As in, the most optimal numbers you can manage. And from their own website:

Please understand that we are a speed clear guild, our opinions are based around achieving the highest DPS possible on every boss. It is not necessary to be a class kitten to kill any boss; DPS checks in Guild Wars 2 Raids are very lenient. You and your team can do the job with just about every team comp. Just because we say something is not recommended doesn’t mean it’s not viable.

If you want to yell at someone,

yell at raid commanders who are expecting raider DPS in the 90th percentile for all bosses from all raiders

. Even hitting half or a bit more than half those numbers, from everyone across the raid, will score you a very natural and smooth kill.

so if kitty hits around 20k dps without using their builds its perfectly fine to be used in raids as I mentioned in many posts here

The difference is that qts benchmarks are a point of referance at the top end of the scala. Every person with a semi-decent understanding of how benchmarks work (and who reads their disclaimer) knows this.

Kittys benchmarks are all over the place and such hard to place as point of referance. With one class she might be top 30%, with another mid 50% of the playerbase. The results inbetween classes are not coherent.

In general, Kitty's benchmarks are between 71%-86% of qT's when there's a same weapon combo-build from qT. 71% being condiengi (which is considered one of the most difficult builds to play) and 86% being condisoulbeast, which is quite easy to play effectively. Though Kitty did use dag+torch/dagger for her condisoulbeast to reach that % ._.But like Kitty's already said, once again, more than a few times, her benchmarks DO include "how difficult this class is to play for a player at this skill level"-factor, unlike qT's where all classes are benchmarked to maximal effectiveness regardless of how difficult they are.

Raid leaders will expect performance according to the skill level of their raid(or at least they should). Obviously there will be bad raid leaders (as well as good raid leaders, but somehow those get mentioned more seldom) expecting unrealistic performance, that's not the fault of qt and the data they provide though.

If raid leaders want to aim for effectiveness of performance that off-meta builds can't do, then certainly they better find the metabuilds. But to clear bosses with pugs, less is enough. Kitty personally wouldn't even join a squad that requires higher performance than her build can give and if Kitty notices the leader wanting to only want highest benchmark builds even if they're not that effective for said boss (they even do that at VG and Sam...), she leaves right away as such leaders (more often than not) have bad manners.

[GrimmR.3541]

Is Kitty even watching her own videos?

[Static.9841]

@GrimmR.3541 said:Is Kitty even watching her own videos?

I highly doubt it because even when she's the one posting them and critique is given, she starts moaning about how we're only linking her bad videos. Boggles the mind.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Static.9841 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:Can you even try to stick to facts, please?

Can you practice what you preach please. You got ported multiple times, you died multiple times, you ignored everything you could and speak of DPS loss when dying, being ported, not understanding WHY you got ported and using what I hesitate to even call a rotation.

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I don't know. Can we change qt site name to "overblown, not required benchmarks"?

You do realise the flaw in your comment here is that a lot of Kittys builds are simply meta builds right? So you're defending and championing her, but then dumping on qT who she has taken builds from..... oh dear.

Oh, Kitty did forget that she also got ported at 95% and 93% and she misremembered when she started ignoring big AoE, it was at 48% instead. Downed at 47%, 11% and 3%. 11% was a major derp indeed =.=' Though also, she wouldn't have survived through the greens with that agony ring on her so she would have ended downed at the edge, which would have been even worse.

Also, most of Kitty's pre-PoF videos were mostly metabuilds indeed, though she also actively played burnguard and condirev among some other builds before they became meta with PoF. She started playing other builds and forming alternatives when she started her benchmarking about 2-3 weeks after PoF launch and Kitty hasn't had the time to play the game nearly as much as she'd like when she's been benchmarking. And Kitty does include qT-builds in her benchmarks since people know their DPSs best and thus it does give something for them to compare Kitty's other test results to (ofc with "Is this too difficult for Kitty?"-factor).E: All dem typos in the last phrase...had to be corrected.

[Ryou.5241]

Wow! This thread is a giant clusterfuck and a prime example for people not listening to each other ;)

A few weeks ago i found Kitty's website and at first i was intrigued to see dps-numbers for off-meta builds. Just out of curiosity to see, how much the difference would be between sword-weaver and staff weaver for example. Maybe it would be something to show Anet, so they could see, how much the difference between weapons is and they could use this for balance purposes. Sadly i was very disappointed, when i saw the numbers. So why was that the case?

On the benchmarks:Every benchmark in gw2 is flawed and unrealistic to varying degrees, atleast when comparing it to an actual raid scenario. For example: -running x-amount of tries to get the highest rng-numbers. Or more prominently having 100% uptime of all boons (25 might, fury, 5 stacks grace of the land, quickness, alacrity, etc.), something that is only possible, if the supports are good enough, everyone staying together and there are no mechanics that fuck this up etc.This is a problem with every benchmark including kittymarks.But the greater problem with kittymarks is, that when i go to qt's site, i will know the max potential of a specific build (or something like >95% of max potential, maybe higher or a little bit lower, whatever i know that this is the best they got after trying really long and experimenting to find the highest dps possible). This number can now be my goal to reach (NOTE! on the golem, not on any raid boss whatsoever, i'm not stupid). Then i look at kittymarks. I also find dps-numbers there. But they are not the max potential of dps of the specific build, some of them are closer, some are miles away from qt (according to Kitty 71-86% on metabuilds). All i now know is, that some offmeta-builds (for meta builds i have qt) can do dps (that i already know before). So i have no real goal, what my dps could be. To make it clearer, imagine an elementalist with no traits whatsoever. Now someone would make a benchmark of the damage of that elementalist on a golem using only lavafont of cooldown. The resulting benchmark we are calling "WT". Now someone else comes and takes the same elementalist, but always uses lava font half a second to late. The resulting benchmark we are calling "DOG". Both benchmarks prove that an elementalist can do damage (WT and DOG), but only one of them shows you the real potential (WT). And this is the problem with kittymarks. All they are doing is showing that they can do damage.

On realistic dps in raid scenarios:There is this site, where you can upload your raid logs and also can compare you to others. This would be your goal for your dps in raid scenarios (also a goal for buff uptimes etc.).

On the raid videos by Kitty:Yes, they show that her builds are viable. They show errors, but this is normal. You probably would find errors, if you watch an entire raid clear of qt. These videos are not a problem at all and have nothing to do with her kittymarks (being good or bad on benchmarking doesn't say much about your abilities in a raid, atleast when the goal is clearing it, the mechanics are way more important) and should not be used to judge them.

So please everyone calm down.@LadyKitty.6120 Maybe think, how you could improve your benchmarks or label them differently.@the others: Chill and maybe some of you, who are really good at benchmarking can give her tips or help her.

[Joxer.6024]

@"Ryou.5241" ..........thank you! Didn't quote as its a wall but thank you for saying everything I wanted to say except I had this "fog" and just couldn't express. Cheers mate! :3

[Afity.5138]

I'm new to raids and I'm rather casual and your builds aren't helping at all to start raiding.

[Rivas.9813]

Thank goodness, so, I can play with my Heal-Thief in Raids.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Ryou.5241 said:Wow! This thread is a giant kitten and a prime example for people not listening to each other ;)

A few weeks ago i found Kitty's website and at first i was intrigued to see dps-numbers for off-meta builds. Just out of curiosity to see, how much the difference would be between sword-weaver and staff weaver for example. Maybe it would be something to show Anet, so they could see, how much the difference between weapons is and they could use this for balance purposes. Sadly i was very disappointed, when i saw the numbers. So why was that the case?

On the benchmarks:Every benchmark in gw2 is flawed and unrealistic to varying degrees, atleast when comparing it to an actual raid scenario. For example: -running x-amount of tries to get the highest rng-numbers. Or more prominently having 100% uptime of all boons (25 might, fury, 5 stacks grace of the land, quickness, alacrity, etc.), something that is only possible, if the supports are good enough, everyone staying together and there are no mechanics that kitten this up etc.This is a problem with every benchmark including kittymarks.But the greater problem with kittymarks is, that when i go to qt's site, i will know the max potential of a specific build (or something like >95% of max potential, maybe higher or a little bit lower, whatever i know that this is the best they got after trying really long and experimenting to find the highest dps possible). This number can now be my goal to reach (NOTE! on the golem, not on any raid boss whatsoever, i'm not stupid). Then i look at kittymarks. I also find dps-numbers there. But they are not the max potential of dps of the specific build, some of them are closer, some are miles away from qt (according to Kitty 71-86% on metabuilds). All i now know is, that some offmeta-builds (for meta builds i have qt) can do dps (that i already know before). So i have no real goal, what my dps could be. To make it clearer, imagine an elementalist with no traits whatsoever. Now someone would make a benchmark of the damage of that elementalist on a golem using only lavafont of cooldown. The resulting benchmark we are calling "WT". Now someone else comes and takes the same elementalist, but always uses lava font half a second to late. The resulting benchmark we are calling "DOG". Both benchmarks prove that an elementalist can do damage (WT and DOG), but only one of them shows you the real potential (WT). And this is the problem with kittymarks. All they are doing is showing that they can do damage.

Well, Kitty did ask more skilled players to help her test various builds a bit and report their findings. But all that happened was thread going extremely toxic without anyone posting any results. And the reason why Kitty dislikes qT's doings is because when Kitty's asked do they test any other builds than meta. Yes, they say. Then, when Kitty asked them if they could publish their numbers from testing those builds just so we'd see how they do and why they are worse and how much worse. Just the numbers. They said that the numbers from trash builds isn't worth publishing. And when Kitty asked Subi (one of their main guide creators) about do they stay behind their "It is not necessary to be a class nazi to kill any boss; DPS checks in Guild Wars 2 Raids are very lenient. You and your team can do the job with just about every team comp. Just because we say something is not recommended doesn’t mean it’s not viable." and she got something like "trash builds shouldn't be brought to raids" as reply.Another funny thing: in that thread where Kitty asked for help with testing the builds, the most negative and toxic people (to the point that their posts were deleted by mods) were mostly confirmed qT-members. The thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78m6ay/versatile_benchmarking_challenge/

So please everyone calm down.@LadyKitty.6120 Maybe think, how you could improve your benchmarks or label them differently.@the others: Chill and maybe some of you, who are really good at benchmarking can give her tips or help her.

Pretty much the only ways for Kitty to improve her benchmarks without breaking the rules she set (keeping them as something that a casual raider should be able to reach) would be getting more skilled at the complicated builds but that would require time and effort that Kitty can't really afford as she also needs to do something else than beating golem 8 hours a day to stay sane. And that would also corrupt the results since Kitty wouldn't be using the same amount of skill for each builds anymore (as complicated/precise-to-play builds require way more skill than for ex. scepter/torch condi-DH). And ofc focusing better, but Kitty's irl-conditions currently make that very hard.

[LadyKitty.6120]

Looks like Anet also did something about the class-locks. Finally.

[Ryou.5241]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:Pretty much the only ways for Kitty to improve her benchmarks without breaking the rules she set (keeping them as something that a casual raider should be able to reach) would be getting more skilled at the complicated builds but that would require time and effort that Kitty can't really afford as she also needs to do something else than beating golem 8 hours a day to stay sane. And that would also corrupt the results since Kitty wouldn't be using the same amount of skill for each builds anymore (as complicated/precise-to-play builds require way more skill than for ex. scepter/torch condi-DH). And ofc focusing better, but Kitty's irl-conditions currently make that very hard.

This is pretty much, why your benchmark don't make sense. A benchmark is about the maximum potential not about some reachable number (this includes grinding rng). A benchmark would be fine, if only 0.001% could even reach it. It gives a goal for improvement.Your kittymarks don't do that. The way they are, they are as good as a random called number. For example: if one of your kittymarks is only 80% of the maximum potential, say 16000 out of 20000 possible dps. Someone looking at this number has no idea of the maximum potential of this build. It is if i would just say 15000 is the benchmark dps, even if 20000 is possible. It makes no sense.

I say this with the utmost respect for your work, but please stop calling it a benchmark (even if it is correct according to the dictionary, in this community we understand under benchmarks the highest reachable dps-number (or as close as it can get). Thats the reason so many of the others react so toxic (which is also very wrong!)).That doesn't mean your work is useless. For example you can create a contest. You design a build, make a few dps tests and than challenge everyone else to exceed this number as far as possible. Who is the best after a certain time, gains a price or something.For example in fighting games there are not only those who compete to win a tournament, there are also those, who are only going for the most stylish combos.

[Ryou.5241]

I could also use QTs (snow crows, etc. Benchmarks) to practice my rotations. The closer i can get, the better my rotation gets. Sadly i can't do this with yours. As i will never know, what skills i could potentially use / not use, as it is just not much more than an random number.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Ryou.5241 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:Pretty much the only ways for Kitty to improve her benchmarks without breaking the rules she set (keeping them as something that a casual raider should be able to reach) would be getting more skilled at the complicated builds but that would require time and effort that Kitty can't really afford as she also needs to do something else than beating golem 8 hours a day to stay sane. And that would also corrupt the results since Kitty wouldn't be using the same amount of skill for each builds anymore (as complicated/precise-to-play builds require way more skill than for ex. scepter/torch condi-DH). And ofc focusing better, but Kitty's irl-conditions currently make that very hard.

This is pretty much, why your benchmark don't make sense. A benchmark is about the maximum potential not about some reachable number (this includes grinding rng). A benchmark would be fine, if only 0.001% could even reach it. It gives a goal for improvement.Your kittymarks don't do that. The way they are, they are as good as a random called number. For example: if one of your kittymarks is only 80% of the maximum potential, say 16000 out of 20000 possible dps. Someone looking at this number has no idea of the maximum potential of this build. It is if i would just say 15000 is the benchmark dps, even if 20000 is possible. It makes no sense.

I say this with the utmost respect for your work, but please stop calling it a benchmark (even if it is correct according to the dictionary, in this community we understand under benchmarks the highest reachable dps-number (or as close as it can get). Thats the reason so many of the others react so toxic (which is also very wrong!)).That doesn't mean your work is useless. For example you can create a contest. You design a build, make a few dps tests and than challenge everyone else to exceed this number as far as possible. Who is the best after a certain time, gains a price or something.For example in fighting games there are not only those who compete to win a tournament, there are also those, who are only going for the most stylish combos.

Gosh, Kitty's already explained that her benchmarks aren't about maximum potential nor tries to be nor claims to be. They're only something that a casual raider should be at least able to pull off with those build as Kitty's builds have mostly had enough DPS for pulling their weight at pretty much any boss if played at Kitty's skill level. Why Kitty knows it? 'Cause she does usually pull her weight (there's some times when Kitty hasn't, but that was just Kitty failing horribly at working the boss mechanics and not the build itself failing) and she's brought some builds marked around 21-23k to No updrafts-Gors and still done more than DPS required to call it pulling her weight properly.

Though some builds might fall below that "enough for No Updrafts Gors"-threshold now that GotL is gone though they'll still be enough for chill bosses like VG, Cairn and Sam. Kitty has some testing to do.

[LadyKitty.6120]

Kitty edited this to original post and copy-pasting it here in case some people want to discuss.

Now that balance patch arrived, Kitty's starting her benchmarks again from 0 to account in the changes. As GotL was made into a might-spam trait and warrior's PS was nerfed, it's not almost a certainty (like 90% of squad running PS+druid+chrono in both subs) anymore that there's Empower Allies and Spotter in both subsquads since there's now some other good alternatives for both the slots that used to be reserved for 2nd PS warr and 2nd druid. So, Kitty takes a minimalistic approach with her benchmarks and drops EA and Spotter from her test setting, retaining banners and spirits as both boof whole raid squad and it's likely there's at least one (DPS or PS) warrior bringing banners and one ranger bringing spirits for the squad.These changes obviously mean that Kitty's numbers will now be even further "what you can expect at least from this build".

[FrostDraco.8306]

@Myhr.9108 said:There are two main types of criticism thrown at Kitty, and people love to mix them.

First, there is the good old shaming. Kitty is lying, pretentious, bad and self-centered (she even talks of herself at the third person, what a wierdo!). Even though she has never ever said "take me as an example!", has admitted numerous times not being good (yet still good enough to down Bosses with her groups) but she's still pretentious. Guess people don't know the difference with "here what is possible with xyz build under xyz conditions". Which, you know is the very definition of a benchmark. It's a mark. Not a goal. Benchmarks can be used as goals, but they also can just be used as point of comparison or as a general idea.

Secondly, there are the discussions about the relevancy of said benchmarks, as in "cool cool, but those videos are useless for me." This is probably the most valid form of criticism, because it gives us a view of the potential public for these videos. And, as some people said, they're perfectly entitled to give their opinion, to criticize the conditions under which the benchmarks are made, and so on. Still doesn't really explain why Kitty should stop making these since at worse, it'll be useless, and then it won't impact anybody.

Except ive known her for years and everything in the first paragraph is pretty much true, because she does this all the time. I could even link you the excuse she gave me for why she talks in the 3rd person around 4 years ago. She used to dump on the people that played my particular class, then would come to our forums, trying to 'teach' us something, and you basically get a repeat of this thread. Literally everytime she post something, because of her attitude and how she does things. And almost none of it has to do with the fact she refers to herself in the 3rd person.

If you are saying comments about her attitude and intentions are just simply 'shaming' then you haven't been playing close enough attention. You don't know her, and the fact you don't proves you are just white knighting for no good reason other than "you shouldn't criticize this person".

BTW a mark IS a goal is the intention of said mark is a goal, which is what benchmarks for dps are. You don't get to redefine how people in this community use the word, just to justify your self righteousness.