About Deadeye, deal with it

[babazhook.6805]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Vambrace.8675 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Vambrace.8675 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts.

I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point:

@babazhook.6805 said:As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired.

Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs.

As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game.

It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500.

As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot.

You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible.

Yeah, not sure what to tell you about the 1500 range thing. Neither vambrace or I said that Also, Magebound Tether isn't an option when there's no fight and at 600 range, as mentioned previously.

As for reaction time, remember that we've fought and I've landed hits on you with more obvious tells. Just based on your comments, it seems likely that you haven't come across what I'm talking about yet. In fact, most people in my guild haven't seen it yet. It's fairly rare but, once you come across it, you'll see why it's not like a regular ol' Deadeye in the wild, and why most of what you're saying isn't really connecting to the reality of the situation.

My thoughts are covered here... I think this discussion is focused on the current run of the mill deadeye spec/player. The situation we ran into was not that... the DE we sort of fought had developed DE to a level well beyond what I have seen previously.

When I come across 90 percent of DE's its a fight and can go either way... Once this particular stealth sniper spec becomes more common place this conversation will make much more sense to folks that dont "get the issue".

To clarify, I like the DE concept... Not calling for nerfs. That said I am really curious to see if this one player was really that good and had broken the standard skill cieling or if this will catch on and be common place. If its the latter we will likely see some serious impacts to roaming and havoc squad play as a result.

The spec is not that special. it build for escape primarily and dent players should still be able to avoid most of those Dj's.

I can do the same on a number of thief builds

You respond to every post in a dismissive fashion. You were rude towards me even though I never once called for a nerf. In my mind you come off as someone blindly defending Thief because you play a Thief which hurts your cred quite a bit. I play Guardian, Ranger, Warrior, Necro and yes I play Thief.

I am not bias for or against Thief but this spec clearly has the potential to damage roaming and Havoc playstlyes via area denial in the right hands. Are those hands yours? Sounds like maybe not.

Rude? I responded to ONE post you made indicating the build not out the ordinary. Building a spec premised around ability to stealth and escape is nothing new for a thief. I do not hav to even see the build to know it pretty close to one I have. Stating the obvious is hardly rude.

OH and I play all classes.> @Vambrace.8675 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Vambrace.8675 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Vambrace.8675 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts.

I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point:

@babazhook.6805 said:As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired.

Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs.

As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game.

It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500.

As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot.

You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible.

Yeah, not sure what to tell you about the 1500 range thing. Neither vambrace or I said that Also, Magebound Tether isn't an option when there's no fight and at 600 range, as mentioned previously.

As for reaction time, remember that we've fought and I've landed hits on you with more obvious tells. Just based on your comments, it seems likely that you haven't come across what I'm talking about yet. In fact, most people in my guild haven't seen it yet. It's fairly rare but, once you come across it, you'll see why it's not like a regular ol' Deadeye in the wild, and why most of what you're saying isn't really connecting to the reality of the situation.

My thoughts are covered here... I think this discussion is focused on the current run of the mill deadeye spec/player. The situation we ran into was not that... the DE we sort of fought had developed DE to a level well beyond what I have seen previously.

When I come across 90 percent of DE's its a fight and can go either way... Once this particular stealth sniper spec becomes more common place this conversation will make much more sense to folks that dont "get the issue".

To clarify, I like the DE concept... Not calling for nerfs. That said I am really curious to see if this one player was really that good and had broken the standard skill cieling or if this will catch on and be common place. If its the latter we will likely see some serious impacts to roaming and havoc squad play as a result.

The spec is not that special. it build for escape primarily and dent players should still be able to avoid most of those Dj's.

I can do the same on a number of thief builds

You respond to every post in a dismissive fashion. You were rude towards me even though I never once called for a nerf. In my mind you come off as someone blindly defending Thief because you play a Thief which hurts your cred quite a bit. I play Guardian, Ranger, Warrior, Necro and yes I play Thief.

I am not bias for or against Thief but this spec clearly has the potential to damage roaming and Havoc playstlyes via area denial in the right hands. Are those hands yours? Sounds like maybe not.

Rude? I told you how to survive againt the spec. Apparently you consider such advice as being rude.

I think if you read back through the thread you will see the truth of it.

I suggest you take your own advice. You made one post which I responded to.

[bq pd.2148]

@Vambrace.8675 said:When I come across 90 percent of DE's its a fight and can go either way... Once this particular stealth sniper spec becomes more common place this conversation will make much more sense to folks that dont "get the issue".

in my opinion it has been for the majority of the games history that 90%+ of thieves in WvW are not really good so they kept dying. its same for deadeye.now i see a lot of deadeyes dont seem to know to watch their defensive capabilities and are easy to kill.

while being visible it is hard if not nearly impossible for a deadeye do disengange but its easier for them to stay stealthed imo then it is for a daredevil, at least there is less counterplay to deadeye stealthstacking as you dont use as many leaps thorugh black powder. i run one instant stealth and one stunbreak so when i attack i make sure i either have one of those ready or have a major range advantage at that moment so i can restealthh without being interrupted. alot of deadeyes i see play to aggressive so they come to a point they wont be able to disengange.against very bursty opponents like thiefs, mesmers, rangers, some eles if they are capable DJ is a suicide move but you can oneshot them mostly with backstab (that is really hard to avoid) but i only have seen one other deadeye switch to dagger against me so far.

most better thieves i know dont care that much for ganking but more for fair fights and duells and i do think daredevil is stronger there so they stick to it. therefor i think you will be rather safe from good deadeyes.

since shortly after HoT i was playing some permastealth power Daredevil and now Deadeye. IMO daredevil is stronger in open field to gank people out of a group and deadeye inside objectives as you have little space and as mentioned before less black powder+leap also elite against those traps. but if you fight 3+ people its pretty much impossible to stomp one with deadeye if they simply stick to rezzing each other, while i still was able to kill them with daredevil due to elite stomp without downstate.

To clarify, I like the DE concept... Not calling for nerfs. That said I am really curious to see if this one player was really that good and had broken the standard skill cieling or if this will catch on and be common place. If its the latter we will likely see some serious impacts to roaming and havoc squad play as a result.

well i dont know what exactly happend to you but: to mark some one or something, wait 18-21 seconds, pop assassins signet and shoot is something i was able to explain to alot of people so far that wanted to try out my playstyle on my server. so they were able to get some nice oneshots. the problem is when simply 1 DJ every 30s is not enough or when facing mutiple opponents they mostly died because they where not watching their disengangeing tools.so yes random DJs will happen (btw you can target your opponent at 70% charged DJ so shorter laser, if you do it too late in the cast it wont go to target) but you wont face a Deadeye often that can get away while killing your entire group.

[babazhook.6805]

@Choppy.4183 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts.

I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point:

@babazhook.6805 said:As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired.

Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs.

As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game.

It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500.

As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot.

You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible.

Yeah, not sure what to tell you about the 1500 range thing. Neither vambrace or I said that Also, Magebound Tether isn't an option when there's no fight and at 600 range, as mentioned previously.

As for reaction time, remember that we've fought and I've landed hits on you with more obvious tells. Just based on your comments, it seems likely that you haven't come across what I'm talking about yet. In fact, most people in my guild haven't seen it yet. It's fairly rare but, once you come across it, you'll see why it's not like a regular ol' Deadeye in the wild, and why most of what you're saying isn't really connecting to the reality of the situation.

Well elts just say those hits you might have landed on me from MY perspective had less obvious tells then a purple beam. Here is the difference. When you are on a warrior there any number of types of attacks that might have to be avoided each with a different tell. Avoiding one means a second a third and a fourth become available. I already told you my reaction times are hardly elite. A fight with a warrior might see a headbutt, a shield smash , a burst , a final thrust all chained together.

A Purple beam is a Purple beam and costs 6 ini to use. I find that easier to avoid. I am not certain as to why I have to come across this purple beam in particular to understand the nature of the tell. I also suggest the person in question was much closer then 1500 range when taking the shot meaning much closer to your available reveals. That he used his elite to take the shot so as to stealth again is something i do as well but it does make you more susceptible to reveals.

Do you know what server this guy was on? I do solo roam a lot and I might well have ran into him. If I am on my own DE thief it becomes a wash as we can both just stealth at will.A DD thief should have little issues with this given all their dodges. I have been roaming on my own SB warriors more of late so can look for him when ourservers next match up. You said he used SR so that leaves all of two utility slots for things like stunbreaks, condition cleanses , more cantrips and the like. he can not be strong everywhere and his stealth is key to survival.

[Vambrace.8675]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vambrace.8675 said:When I come across 90 percent of DE's its a fight and can go either way... Once this particular stealth sniper spec becomes more common place this conversation will make much more sense to folks that dont "get the issue".

in my opinion it has been for the majority of the games history that 90%+ of thieves in WvW are not really good so they kept dying. its same for deadeye.now i see a lot of deadeyes dont seem to know to watch their defensive capabilities and are easy to kill.

while being visible it is hard if not nearly impossible for a deadeye do disengange but its easier for them to stay stealthed imo then it is for a daredevil, at least there is less counterplay to deadeye stealthstacking as you dont use as many leaps thorugh black powder. i run one instant stealth and one stunbreak so when i attack i make sure i either have one of those ready or have a major range advantage at that moment so i can restealthh without being interrupted. alot of deadeyes i see play to aggressive so they come to a point they wont be able to disengange.against very bursty opponents like thiefs, mesmers, rangers, some eles if they are capable DJ is a suicide move but you can oneshot them mostly with backstab (that is really hard to avoid) but i only have seen one other deadeye switch to dagger against me so far.

most better thieves i know dont care that much for ganking but more for fair fights and duells and i do think daredevil is stronger there so they stick to it. therefor i think you will be rather safe from good deadeyes.

since shortly after HoT i was playing some permastealth power Daredevil and now Deadeye. IMO daredevil is stronger in open field to gank people out of a group and deadeye inside objectives as you have little space and as mentioned before less black powder+leap also elite against those traps. but if you fight 3+ people its pretty much impossible to stomp one with deadeye if they simply stick to rezzing each other, while i still was able to kill them with daredevil due to elite stomp without downstate.

To clarify, I like the DE concept... Not calling for nerfs. That said I am really curious to see if this one player was really that good and had broken the standard skill cieling or if this will catch on and be common place. If its the latter we will likely see some serious impacts to roaming and havoc squad play as a result.

well i dont know what exactly happend to you but: to mark some one or something, wait 18-21 seconds, pop assassins signet and shoot is something i was able to explain to alot of people so far that wanted to try out my playstyle on my server. so they were able to get some nice oneshots. the problem is when simply 1 DJ every 30s is not enough or when facing mutiple opponents they mostly died because they where not watching their disengangeing tools.so yes random DJs will happen (btw you can target your opponent at 70% charged DJ so shorter laser, if you do it too late in the cast it wont go to target) but you wont face a Deadeye often that can get away while killing your entire group.

Sounds like we ran into an exception to the standard and will not likely be happening often. If that is the case then this spec will fall into the niche gank spec pile of thief specs.

Generally I do worry about specs with high griefing potential and their potential effects on WvW playstyles and thus participation. It seems to me WvW participation is considerably lower than it should be after an expansion.

[Choppy.4183]

@babazhook.6805 said:Do you know what server this guy was on?

He's on BG, though I came across it on one of our previous matchups with another server too (he was also a nice guy).

The reason I think you need to see it in person is to understand it better. Your comments suggest you're still thinking about it as being in a fight, and it's just another build to counter. It's not like that... you'll never be in combat unless you're downed, even if someone next to you is downed.

You could certainly stay focussed to wait for the shot to dodge, and even if successful, you still won't be in combat. But while hanging around, you likely won't be able to maintain perfect focus for a shot that might come in at some point. And you really won't be able to do anything else except wait while the DE waits in stealth somewhere until he has his next opportunity to take a another shot. You might dodge that too, but at best you'll have a stalemate with nothing getting done. Realistically though, you'll mess up the dodge at some point (probably sooner than later), and you'll lose.

It's why the only sensible thing to do is to move on, and that's essentially what Vambrace said.

[bq pd.2148]

@Choppy.4183 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Do you know what server this guy was on?

He's on BG, though I came across it on one of our previous matchups with another server too (he was also a nice guy).

The reason I think you need to see it in person is to understand it better. Your comments suggest you're still thinking about it as being in a fight, and it's just another build to counter. It's not like that... you'll never be in combat unless you're downed, even if someone next to you is downed.

You could certainly stay focussed to wait for the shot to dodge, and even if successful, you still won't be in combat. But while hanging around, you likely won't be able to maintain perfect focus for a shot that might come in at some point. And you really won't be able to do anything else except wait while the DE waits in stealth somewhere until he has his next opportunity to take a another shot. You might dodge that too, but at best you'll have a stalemate with nothing getting done. Realistically though, you'll mess up the dodge at some point (probably sooner than later), and you'll lose.

It's why the only sensible thing to do is to move on, and that's essentially what Vambrace said.

yes if i dont get hit i am not in combat till i hit with DJ cause i dont run trickery so no sleight of hand and i dont run DA for poison. i only get infight if i mark condi guards with that on block burn rune. and you are also correct even the best players at some point wont dogge if you keep trying for 2 hours, there will be a point when hes like typing or something... works only in enemy keeps / towers tho that they wont just /laugh and leave.

[babazhook.6805]

@Choppy.4183 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Do you know what server this guy was on?

He's on BG, though I came across it on one of our previous matchups with another server too (he was also a nice guy).

The reason I think you need to see it in person is to understand it better. Your comments suggest you're still thinking about it as being in a fight, and it's just another build to counter. It's not like that... you'll never be in combat unless you're downed, even if someone next to you is downed.

You could certainly stay focussed to wait for the shot to dodge, and even if successful, you still won't be in combat. But while hanging around, you likely won't be able to maintain perfect focus for a shot that might come in at some point. And you really won't be able to do anything else except wait while the DE waits in stealth somewhere until he has his next opportunity to take a another shot. You might dodge that too, but at best you'll have a stalemate with nothing getting done. Realistically though, you'll mess up the dodge at some point (probably sooner than later), and you'll lose.

It's why the only sensible thing to do is to move on, and that's essentially what Vambrace said.

Well I alluded on to the moving on bit with other specs that just dash off with superior mobility. There no sense hanging around trying to chase them if they can always out run you. The same was true with that old Ghost thief build. Why would a prson bother trying to track on of those down. Give it your best shot then move on.

[Choppy.4183]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Do you know what server this guy was on?

He's on BG, though I came across it on one of our previous matchups with another server too (he was also a nice guy).

The reason I think you need to see it in person is to understand it better. Your comments suggest you're still thinking about it as being in a fight, and it's just another build to counter. It's not like that... you'll never be in combat unless you're downed, even if someone next to you is downed.

You could certainly stay focussed to wait for the shot to dodge, and even if successful, you still won't be in combat. But while hanging around, you likely won't be able to maintain perfect focus for a shot that might come in at some point. And you really won't be able to do anything else except wait while the DE waits in stealth somewhere until he has his next opportunity to take a another shot. You might dodge that too, but at best you'll have a stalemate with nothing getting done. Realistically though, you'll mess up the dodge at some point (probably sooner than later), and you'll lose.

It's why the only sensible thing to do is to move on, and that's essentially what Vambrace said.

Well I alluded on to the moving on bit with other specs that just dash off with superior mobility. There no sense hanging around trying to chase them if they can always out run you. The same was true with that old Ghost thief build. Why would a prson bother trying to track on of those down. Give it your best shot then move on.

Precisely.