I came back after 5 years and they nerfed Engi's ranged options?

[Atmaweapon.7345]

Really? Two elite specializations and weapons focused on melee and in the meantime, Grenade range was nerfed? It wouldn't be so bad if the reworked Mortar Kit was actually any good for damage, but it's rather sad considering how slow its projectiles are.

When I think of an Engineer class I don't think of a fighter that uses EVERY weapon they have up in the opponent's face. Rifle Leap shot is a particularly egregious example where the explosion from shooting the ground deals less damage than throwing your body at an enemy. I still have a Charzooka racial elite, but no dedicated Bazooka type weapon or kit? Attacks like Photon Blitz and Prime Light Beam are immensely satisfying to use, but I'm still stuck using melee attacks alongside them (Photon Blitz is also only 600 range for some reason.)

With all of these new melee weapons, do you think that Rifles can actually focus on range now? Just change up some stuff like how Pistol Poison dart volley was made to NOT be absolute kitten when firing at something more than five feet away.

[Arimas.3492]

I think almost all engi players agree that we could use a good ranged option. I for one don't think it will happen until we get an elite spec sadly that focuses on range. I'm pretty keen on a rifle rework but I'm sure that will never happen as we have a hard enough time as it is getting any change at all with our core weapons (see recently with Holosmith and no heat values for any other weapon besides sword).

Elite specs are cool but for Engineer at least we have options for range, but they are not good enough or have been nerfed to make room for something else that ends up not even being a viable fill for that void and it seems that ANet wants to go the elite spec route with a new weapon rather than giving a good functionality change to existing options. Be it for "it's not their vision for the class" or in order to sell the next expack with elites I don't like where elite specs have brought us in a balance sense.

[Obtena.7952]

@Atmaweapon.7345 said:Really? Two elite specializations and weapons focused on melee and in the meantime, Grenade range was nerfed? It wouldn't be so bad if the reworked Mortar Kit was actually any good for damage, but it's rather sad considering how slow its projectiles are.

When I think of an Engineer class I don't think of a fighter that uses EVERY weapon they have up in the opponent's face. Rifle Leap shot is a particularly egregious example where the explosion from shooting the ground deals less damage than throwing your body at an enemy. I still have a Charzooka racial elite, but no dedicated Bazooka type weapon or kit? Attacks like Photon Blitz and Prime Light Beam are immensely satisfying to use, but I'm still stuck using melee attacks alongside them (Photon Blitz is also only 600 range for some reason.)

With all of these new melee weapons, do you think that Rifles can actually focus on range now? Just change up some stuff like how Pistol Poison dart volley was made to NOT be absolute kitten when firing at something more than five feet away.

If you were gone 5 years, how would you even remember?

Anyways, the ranged options are as good as they have been. TO say they aren't good is ignoring what actually makes up the meta builds.

[insanemaniac.2456]

the best way to use grenades has always been throw them at your feet.

the second best way used to be kill siege on the back of a wall in wvw. mortar took over for that.

what was lost in taking away 1500 range is only the ability for engi to pewpew good damage and cover condis into a small area from so far away that youre untouchable.

[santenal.1054]

Well there were a few changes made to the long range options. The grenades (+ Grenadier (trait)) were 1500 range back then (they were pretty slow, kind of like mortar now but with beter damage) and the removed Rifled Barrels trait gave range increases to the Rifle, Pistol and Elixir Gun skills (Rifle did receive some range buffs on 28 july 2015 but pistol and Elixir Gun did not).

They can easily/should imo make Grenade Kit and Mortar Kit reasonably reliable long range options (small moving target).

Grenade Kit: make Grenadier baseline and increase the range of grenade kit number 1. The tooltip says 900 range currently but if you throw the grenades fowards while running fowards the grenades will land about 500 range in front of your feet while a Tranquilizer Dart (900 range) would have gone much further. ( it's due to the ground targeting).

Mortar kit: Increase velocity

Increasing velocity seems to come with a drawback though. When you currently pick the Grenadier trait you can see that the grenades fly lower over the ground (less of a curve than without the trait) which makes them hit bumps on ground more easely and making them explode too soon. Hip shot, Fragmentation Shot and Tranquilizer Dart don't get bothered by this, as you can see in the Video:

[Arimas.3492]

@santenal.1054 makes me wonder why can't they just increase the speed of the projectile and have it travel on the same arc as normal rather than decreasing the arc to make it fly faster. From the end use perspective it seems like the easy way out by doing that but in gameplay terms is a drawback in some scenarios.

[santenal.1054]

@"Arimas.3492" Maybe the grenades have to obey the ingame laws of physics. Same distance in a shorter amount of time = less curve, more straight fowards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projectile_motion

[Arimas.3492]

@santenal.1054 said:@"Arimas.3492" Maybe the grenades have to obey the ingame laws of physics. Same distance in a shorter amount of time = less curve, more straight fowards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projectile_motion

Makes sense. I was thinking since it's a game that is programmed to work in ways we want, why can't the speed be higher but travel the same way. Basically I was thinking if you had a ball attached to a rail on a specific arc, the only thing making it move faster depends on how fast you move it along with your hand. Where the programmer could manipulate the speed of the ball without changing it's arc.

[Vagrant.7206]

@santenal.1054 said:@"Arimas.3492" Maybe the grenades have to obey the ingame laws of physics. Same distance in a shorter amount of time = less curve, more straight fowards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projectile_motion

It's possible that that may be another issue affecting flight times. I have noticed that the grenadier trait makes grenades follow a much flatter trajectory.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

@santenal.1054 said:@"Arimas.3492" Maybe the grenades have to obey the ingame laws of physics. Same distance in a shorter amount of time = less curve, more straight fowards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projectile_motion

I can't say that I've tried to measure it, but it does look like projectiles behave as if in lower than normal gravity. Compare how slowly they lose altitude to a player falling the same distance; it doesn't look like the same rate. It may just be my perspective, though; looking at it from behind the projectile doesn't give the best view.

[Kichwas.7152]

When I look at this:https://metabattle.com/wiki/Engineer

It seems engineer is in a better spot than most classes 'spec diversity' wise. I see old specs and both elites all making up top builds. For some of the other classes, everyone is playing the same spec...

Mind you I'm not yet sure what to make of the new Holosmith, which is why I'm checking the engineer forum. But it looks like other some people do, and yet there are also more ranged builds in there than not.

[Bish.8627]

Funny this thread popped up. I was thinking about this today. Engie hasn't been able to break into the wvw meta for some time. The reason I started an Engie was for nades in wvw, the range was amazing, and you could add real pressure to a zerg. Especially from the wall of a tower defending, the nerf stopped this.

I think we are at a place where Revs hit harder from range (I now wvw on a hammer rev), so do thieves and rangers. Why not bring back the nade range? Would bring some real viability to engies in wvw.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

@Bish.8627 said:Funny this thread popped up. I was thinking about this today. Engie hasn't been able to break into the wvw meta for some time. The reason I started an Engie was for nades in wvw, the range was amazing, and you could add real pressure to a zerg. Especially from the wall of a tower defending, the nerf stopped this.

I think we are at a place where Revs hit harder from range (I now wvw on a hammer rev), so do thieves and rangers. Why not bring back the nade range? Would bring some real viability to engies in wvw.

Or just turn the mortar kit into something with actual teeth. Right now its only real use is laying down combo fields or hitting stationary targets with multiple hit boxes.

[RedSPINE.7845]

I must admit the engineer lacks powerful ranges attacks. Well, «reliable» more than «powerful». But I love how we use our rifle more like a shotgun than a carbine. Blunderbuss is one of my favourite weapon skill. I'd be glad if they could assume rifle as a mid/close-range weapon for the engineer and create a more reliable ranged weapon for power builds, maybe for the next elite spec ... I do think the engineer needs another weapon right now but I know that's not possible xD

[Vagrant.7206]

@Kichwas.7152 said:When I look at this:https://metabattle.com/wiki/Engineer

It seems engineer is in a better spot than most classes 'spec diversity' wise. I see old specs and both elites all making up top builds. For some of the other classes, everyone is playing the same spec...

Mind you I'm not yet sure what to make of the new Holosmith, which is why I'm checking the engineer forum. But it looks like other some people do, and yet there are also more ranged builds in there than not.

The whole class has been forced to get creative, lol. We don't have a "win" button like certain classes (AHEM WARRIOR AND SCOURGE), so we have to throw everything at the wall. Sometimes we even throw wet tissue paper!

Also, if you think engineer has decent ranged options, spend some time on mortar kit, grenade kit, and rifle. Then go play a longbow ranger or rifle warrior and come back to me.

[Obtena.7952]

The EXCEPTIONAL ranged options of other classes do not indicate that Engi's ranged options are poor. Again ... what is meta right now? If you want to see bad ranged options, take a trip down memory lane to Guardian Scepter. THAT'S how bad it can be ... Engi's options are not even close to that.

[Atenhara.2947]

I believe the game has always strived to force players to stay stacked on the mob. If you stay ranged you do not get group buffs so your help to the group is minimized. It makes it really hard since you have to dodge constantly but that's what the game commands.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

@Atenhara.2947 said:I believe the game has always strived to force players to stay stacked on the mob. If you stay ranged you do not get group buffs so your help to the group is minimized. It makes it really hard since you have to dodge constantly but that's what the game commands.

That is not at all how PvP and WvW work.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Obtena.7952 said:The EXCEPTIONAL ranged options of other classes do not indicate that Engi's ranged options are poor. Again ... what is meta right now? If you want to see bad ranged options, take a trip down memory lane to Guardian Scepter. THAT'S how bad it can be ... Engi's options are not even close to that.

Objectively, we're not in the worst possible position for ranged. But that doesn't mean a whole lot when we haven't seen anything meaningful done about our ranged abilities in years, while others have seen regular improvements/upgrades.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The EXCEPTIONAL ranged options of other classes do not indicate that Engi's ranged options are poor. Again ... what is meta right now? If you want to see bad ranged options, take a trip down memory lane to Guardian Scepter. THAT'S how bad it can be ... Engi's options are not even close to that.

Objectively, we're not in the worst possible position for ranged. But that doesn't mean a whole lot when we haven't seen anything meaningful done about our ranged abilities in years, while others have seen regular improvements/upgrades.

Which profession is worse? Warrior has longbow and rifle, guardian has dragonhunter longbow, revenant has hammer, thief has deadeye, ranger has longbow, mesmer has greatsword, elementalist has staff...the closest there is to 'worse' is the necromancer, and they have better control at that range. There's a reason why they're more in demand in WvW than engineers are.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Unholy Pillager.3791 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The EXCEPTIONAL ranged options of other classes do not indicate that Engi's ranged options are poor. Again ... what is meta right now? If you want to see bad ranged options, take a trip down memory lane to Guardian Scepter. THAT'S how bad it can be ... Engi's options are not even close to that.

Objectively, we're not in the worst possible position for ranged. But that doesn't mean a whole lot when we haven't seen anything meaningful done about our ranged abilities in years, while others have seen regular improvements/upgrades.

Which profession is worse? Warrior has longbow and rifle, guardian has dragonhunter longbow, revenant has hammer, thief has deadeye, ranger has longbow, mesmer has greatsword, elementalist has staff...the closest there is to 'worse' is the necromancer, and they have better control at that range. There's a reason why they're more in demand in WvW than engineers are.

I was responding to Obtena's point about guardian scepter. That's still pretty bad. But guardian rarely uses it anyway -- they have a large variety of other choices to pick from now. We don't.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Unholy Pillager.3791 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The EXCEPTIONAL ranged options of other classes do not indicate that Engi's ranged options are poor. Again ... what is meta right now? If you want to see bad ranged options, take a trip down memory lane to Guardian Scepter. THAT'S how bad it can be ... Engi's options are not even close to that.

Objectively, we're not in the worst possible position for ranged. But that doesn't mean a whole lot when we haven't seen anything meaningful done about our ranged abilities in years, while others have seen regular improvements/upgrades.

Which profession is worse? Warrior has longbow and rifle, guardian has dragonhunter longbow, revenant has hammer, thief has deadeye, ranger has longbow, mesmer has greatsword, elementalist has staff...the closest there is to 'worse' is the necromancer, and they have better control at that range. There's a reason why they're more in demand in WvW than engineers are.

I was responding to Obtena's point about guardian scepter. That's still pretty bad. But guardian rarely uses it anyway -- they have a large variety of other choices to pick from now. We don't.

I think it's important to remember that one of the features that makes the Eng class unique is exactly the fact that you don't optimally play it by choosing a single weapon set and stick to it, so the whole idea that Eng is hard done by because it doesn't have any particularly good ranged option really doesn't mix well. Put another way, if the INTENTION is to get the best performance from good Eng players by giving them lots of choices, then no single choice can be overwhelmingly good. It seems to me, that's what the class is supposed to be about.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Unholy Pillager.3791 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The EXCEPTIONAL ranged options of other classes do not indicate that Engi's ranged options are poor. Again ... what is meta right now? If you want to see bad ranged options, take a trip down memory lane to Guardian Scepter. THAT'S how bad it can be ... Engi's options are not even close to that.

Objectively, we're not in the worst possible position for ranged. But that doesn't mean a whole lot when we haven't seen anything meaningful done about our ranged abilities in years, while others have seen regular improvements/upgrades.

Which profession is worse? Warrior has longbow and rifle, guardian has dragonhunter longbow, revenant has hammer, thief has deadeye, ranger has longbow, mesmer has greatsword, elementalist has staff...the closest there is to 'worse' is the necromancer, and they have better control at that range. There's a reason why they're more in demand in WvW than engineers are.

I was responding to Obtena's point about guardian scepter. That's still pretty bad. But guardian rarely uses it anyway -- they have a large variety of other choices to pick from now. We don't.

I think it's important to remember that one of the features that makes the Eng class unique is exactly the fact that you don't optimally play it by choosing a single weapon set and stick to it, so the whole idea that Eng is hard done by because it doesn't have any particularly good ranged option really doesn't mix well. Put another way, if the INTENTION is to get the best performance from good Eng players by giving them lots of choices, then no single choice can be overwhelmingly good. It seems to me, that's what the class is supposed to be about.

Yeah, but none of the options are great either:

• All engineer ranged weapons are projectiles, meaning reflects damage us (or teammates), and projectile destruction nullifies damage.
• Mortar kit does rather low damage overall (especially for an elite) and has incredibly long flight times at max distance, and you can't autoattack with it.
• Grenade kit has long flight times (without trait), spreads the further they're thrown, and you can't autoattack with it. Of our "ranged" options, it does the most damage, but as people have pointed out, it's most effective at point blank.
• Rifle's autoattack is 1200 range, but virtually all other rifle skills are 900 range or less, and the best damage is done at point blank. Its autoattack is extremely weak when compared to other classes who don't need to be point blank to deal damage.
• MH Pistol's autoattack is 900 range, but is pretty garbage. The #2 skill has a spread making it unreliable. The 3 skill is decent.
• OH Pistol is basically 600 range -- blowtorch is best used point blank, and glue shot isn't a damage dealer.

[Shoyoko.7309]

A lot has happened to engi in the last five years, however, it seems like the last 2 years, anet has provided a few improvements and buffs on engineer skills after the endless trail of nerfs. I would say that engineer is in a better place now compared to a few years ago, Qt has helped shown that we have decent dps meta builds and our range options although nerfed, are not too bad compared to all other professions.But on the topic of grenade, I do find that the nerf on the explosion trait line alongside reducing range has made grenades good to borderline viable.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Unholy Pillager.3791 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The EXCEPTIONAL ranged options of other classes do not indicate that Engi's ranged options are poor. Again ... what is meta right now? If you want to see bad ranged options, take a trip down memory lane to Guardian Scepter. THAT'S how bad it can be ... Engi's options are not even close to that.

Objectively, we're not in the worst possible position for ranged. But that doesn't mean a whole lot when we haven't seen anything meaningful done about our ranged abilities in years, while others have seen regular improvements/upgrades.

Which profession is worse? Warrior has longbow and rifle, guardian has dragonhunter longbow, revenant has hammer, thief has deadeye, ranger has longbow, mesmer has greatsword, elementalist has staff...the closest there is to 'worse' is the necromancer, and they have better control at that range. There's a reason why they're more in demand in WvW than engineers are.

I was responding to Obtena's point about guardian scepter. That's still pretty bad. But guardian rarely uses it anyway -- they have a large variety of other choices to pick from now. We don't.

I think it's important to remember that one of the features that makes the Eng class unique is exactly the fact that you don't optimally play it by choosing a single weapon set and stick to it, so the whole idea that Eng is hard done by because it doesn't have any particularly good ranged option really doesn't mix well. Put another way, if the INTENTION is to get the best performance from good Eng players by giving them lots of choices, then no single choice can be overwhelmingly good. It seems to me, that's what the class is supposed to be about.

Yeah, but none of the options are great either:

• All engineer ranged weapons are projectiles, meaning reflects damage us (or teammates), and projectile destruction nullifies damage.
• Mortar kit does rather low damage overall (especially for an elite) and has incredibly long flight times at max distance, and you can't autoattack with it.
• Grenade kit has long flight times (without trait), spreads the further they're thrown, and you can't autoattack with it. Of our "ranged" options, it does the most damage, but as people have pointed out, it's most effective at point blank.
• Rifle's autoattack is 1200 range, but virtually all other rifle skills are 900 range or less, and the best damage is done at point blank. Its autoattack is extremely weak when compared to other classes who don't need to be point blank to deal damage.
• MH Pistol's autoattack is 900 range, but is pretty garbage. The #2 skill has a spread making it unreliable. The 3 skill is decent.
• OH Pistol is basically 600 range -- blowtorch is best used point blank, and glue shot isn't a damage dealer.

That's exactly what I was saying ... any options that stands out as better than the rest will be the de facto goto weapon ... and that seems to me that's not really what the concept of the Eng class is about in the first place. I could be wrong but basically it appears that the intention is that you swap to whatever on-demand skills you need, with relatively balanced attack skills peppered between all that. No single weapon is going to stand out there.