Should Revs be forced to channel a legend?

[Einlanzer.1627]

I accidentally posted this on the general profession board when I meant to post it here, but it's gotten a bit of good feedback so I wanted to go ahead and post it here so it would be more visible.

The legend swapping feature is thematically a bit weird and mechanically doesn't work as well as it should. This is mostly because each legend operates within a specific role, so swapping between them often doesn't make a lot of sense except as a way to restore energy, which just feels forced and awkward. Additionally, it leaves an absence of design space for more generic skill types that would fit the Revenant theme well and results in an overall lack of skill choice and customization options for Revenants, which is a problem that will only get worse.

What would a smarter design be? How about this - add 10-16 new skills that are not associated with any legend, and allow Revenants to drop one of their equipped legends and swap into a non-legend mode. When not channeling a legend, your "generic" skills can be customized on your skill bar in the same way other classes can. When you invoke your equipped legend, these customized skills are replaced by the fixed ones associated with that legend. This would allow you to build a customized loadout that synergizes with whatever legend you have equipped based on the role you want to play, and would make a lot of Revenant choices a lot more interesting.

Conceptually, at least, I think that would make a lot more sense than the current design, and, IMO, is how it should have been designed from the start. This is also how Rytlock works - he goes into and out of the Brill legend instead of swapping between two legends and staying in one or the other at all times.

Most importantly, it would give Revs much greater build depth, which is where they are most lacking. It would probably also justify the removal of weapon swapping - especially if they allowed for not invoking while still having two legend equipped.****

[xiev.6905]

I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

[xXLuggXx.4018]

@xiev.6905 said:

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

Didn't see your other post.. :)Sure it will have to have some balancing but I think it is possible. Just think of it as a necro/ reaper. You have basically 4 sillbars (2x Weapon, 1x Shroud, 1x utility = 4). Now with this "new" concept the Revenant would channel 1 legend and change it's utility bar according to the selected legend (2x weap, 2x utility =4).

Maybe even change the profession that you can only swap in and out 1 legend (like shroud) or keep the 2 legends + no-legend option. Sure necro has only 1 shroud at a time and revenant would have 5 different but in this way it keeps a unique character and the utilities are balanced to have 2 bars anyways...

[Einlanzer.1627]

I think that designing Rev in this way would polish them enough to remove the weapon swap per the original desire of the class, but they'd have to do a really good job with the new utility skills. I'm also not 100% sure it's necessary just for the sake of symmetry.

If they let us have two equipped legends in addition to no legend, that would be definite grounds for removing weapon swap. i wouldn't oppose that.

[Cuon Alpinus.7645]

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.

[Nivik.2961]

What about if we had no cooldown on weapon swap? Therefore only managing one limiting factor, being your energy in between legend swaps. Would that make the class easier to manage and feel better? The reason I feel like it wouldn't be overpowered is because you still have energy management and cooldowns..just wondering what you guys think?

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.

We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.

We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

I don't honestly really care that much whether the weapon swap remains or not. Either way, I still think this is the right way to do the Revenant.

[Buran.3796]

@xiev.6905 said:

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

So on top of the absolute lack of flexibility with legend skill selection we would also gain 0 flexibility in terms of weapon rotations? Sound like a promising plan to bury the Revenant at PvP and WvW.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.

We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

I don't honestly really care that much whether the weapon swap remains or not. Either way, I still think this is the right way to do the Revenant.

Okay.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:~~ We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?~~

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.

We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

I don't honestly really care that much whether the weapon swap remains or not. Either way, I still think this is the right way to do the Revenant.

Okay.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:~~ We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?~~

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

Yes, because Necromancer and Revenant are anything whatsoever like each other thematically or mechanically. The entire purpose of this suggestion is to fill out Revenant's skill choices and make them have the same level of variety and build customizaton that every other class in the game has.

Thanks for the completely useless input.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.

We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

I don't honestly really care that much whether the weapon swap remains or not. Either way, I still think this is the right way to do the Revenant.

Okay.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:~~ We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?~~

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

Yes, because Necromancer and Revenant are anything whatsoever like each other thematically or mechanically. The entire purpose of this suggestion is to fill out Revenant's skill choices and make them have the same level of variety and build customizaton that every other class in the game has.

Thanks for the completely useless input.

Well then this is a completely useless discussion. Your opinion of how the spec should've been designed from the start is irrelevant to their vision, and the costs of hiring an art team/programmers.

There are 40480 possible combinations of skills 6-0 in every other class. It doesn't matter that the vast majority are terrible, and the remainder are superficially different. Or that Revenant was able to become meta in every game mode despite not having 40480 combinations.

What matters is that 10 new utilities is 120 combinations, then multiply it by however many heals, then by elites. And whatever number you come up with, ANET will have bug test each one. Of course that would be after they fix the bugs in this expansion. And then do balance testing for the new skills, then art design.

At this point its just as likely this would be the next elite spec in however many years.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.

We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

I don't honestly really care that much whether the weapon swap remains or not. Either way, I still think this is the right way to do the Revenant.

Okay.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:~~ We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?~~

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

Yes, because Necromancer and Revenant are anything whatsoever like each other thematically or mechanically. The entire purpose of this suggestion is to fill out Revenant's skill choices and make them have the same level of variety and build customizaton that every other class in the game has.

Thanks for the completely useless input.

Well then this is a completely useless discussion. Your opinion of how the spec should've been designed from the start is irrelevant to their vision, and the costs of hiring an art team/programmers.

There are 40480 possible combinations of skills 6-0 in every other class. It doesn't matter that the vast majority are terrible, and the remainder are superficially different. Or that Revenant was able to become meta in every game mode despite not having 40480 combinations.

What matters is that 10 new utilities is 120 combinations, then multiply it by however many heals, then by elites. And whatever number you come up with, ANET will have bug test each one. Of course that would be after they fix the bugs in this expansion. And then do balance testing for the new skills, then art design.

At this point its just as likely this would be the next elite spec in however many years.

Which would be the exact wrong approach - just keep piling stuff onto a bad foundation.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.

We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

I don't honestly really care that much whether the weapon swap remains or not. Either way, I still think this is the right way to do the Revenant.

Okay.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:~~ We get five skills from each weapon set, five from each legend, and three from f1-f3. It doesn't matter how many different combinations there are in the base legend, it will still be five skills and our total remains 23. Why mess with weapon swap?~~

If you want two weapons, five customizable utilies, and a preselected set of powerful skills you can swap into then play necro. You can choose to invoke death, reaper, or sand.

Don't make it complicated or the devs won't do it.

Your desire is more easily satisfied by an F5 that restores 50 energy, and puts f1 on cooldown.

Yes, because Necromancer and Revenant are anything whatsoever like each other thematically or mechanically. The entire purpose of this suggestion is to fill out Revenant's skill choices and make them have the same level of variety and build customizaton that every other class in the game has.

Thanks for the completely useless input.

Well then this is a completely useless discussion. Your opinion of how the spec should've been designed from the start is irrelevant to their vision, and the costs of hiring an art team/programmers.

There are 40480 possible combinations of skills 6-0 in every other class. It doesn't matter that the vast majority are terrible, and the remainder are superficially different. Or that Revenant was able to become meta in every game mode despite not having 40480 combinations.

What matters is that 10 new utilities is 120 combinations, then multiply it by however many heals, then by elites. And whatever number you come up with, ANET will have bug test each one. Of course that would be after they fix the bugs in this expansion. And then do balance testing for the new skills, then art design.

At this point its just as likely this would be the next elite spec in however many years.

Which would be the exact wrong approach - just keep piling stuff onto a bad foundation.

I appreciate your concept, but its not going to happen any time soon. They only change foundations every two years.

[starlinvf.1358]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.

Adding more abilities doesn't fix the underlying problem of how we access them. Rev designed as a non-synegistic, compartmentalized skill system, which is supposed to afford it a higher power budget. But because of the way the game is designed, most classes actively EXCEED their power budget by exploiting compounding multipliers. There is also a major inconsistency between classes as to how this do this. Guardians get most of their effective power through Trait Synergy (and which Firebrand breaks, because its an additional layer of power ON TOP of that high Effective power). Theives get their power through trait stacking and skill/field combo. Eles and Engineers get their power by skill spamming. Warriors get their power from conditional modifiers, and build rotations around their triggers.

Rev's underlying problem is the same one Rangers suffer from..... poor trait/skill synergy that is being compensated for by very narrow force multiplication. At face value, most Ranger weapon and Utilities are very powerful in isolation; and is largely why the class is so durable in open world. But when put under any amount of stress, those skills can't keep pace with other classes, except with a hand full of very specific combinations. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, if it wasn't for the fact that Ranger's effective power caps faster then any other class, and has very few options to get around this problem (which is why nearly every build relies heavily on Quick Draw).

With the Rev, they lack the diversity of utilities, but the individual skills are (by far) the strongest set of skills in Isolation. That fact has largely been whats carrying Rev through HOT, and would be insanely over powered if allowed to mix and match them. But their counter balance factors, ie high energy costs, prevents their skills from being used in complex skill chains that every other class uses to deliver their roles. From a build perspective, its a sustain class with poor responsiveness in a game that operates heavily on Bursty responses. Looking at both PvP and WvW, Rev has to be played very Predicatively, and gets little to no pay out of that prediction is wrong. In PvE, where everything is predictable, the class shines a lot brighter.... until they're faced with 2 or more mechanics to counter. Now when you look at the skill division for their utilities, the designer's goal was to avoid skill combinations for stacking power- supposedly with the intent that each skill is good enough on their own to handle a specific situation.

Which brings us to why the Renegade falls apart..... its the same concepts taken to a logical extreme, but the whole kit is vulnerable to hard counters. The only thing thats changed is that Kala has generic trait synergy with Condi damage, where as Herald has synergy with Power. But Glint also has access to 2 very strong life saver skills if timed correctly: Facet of Light and Facet of Chaos. Name one skill in the entire Kala kit that could do the same? The Knock down on ScorchRazor is as close as it gets. The short bow skills are too slow for the 900 range in any PvP mode, and lacks ramping or utility in PvE... so naturally Condi Revs are falling back on the higher potency of Mace/Axe. As for the utilities..... its that combination of short duration, high cost, and easily countered that make using those skills borderline wasteful. On the off chance they do land for full effect, that effect is so minor that it barely sets up the target for a follow up (and by that time you're already out of energy).

Break it all down, and you'll realize that adding more skills won't fix the problem of the design intent of those skills NOT being meant to be chained.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cuon Alpinus.7645 said:

@xiev.6905 said:I comment on your other post.

Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.

I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.

Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.

I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.

Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.

We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.

Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.

Adding more abilities doesn't fix the underlying problem of how we access them. Rev designed as a non-synegistic, compartmentalized skill system, which is supposed to afford it a higher power budget. But because of the way the game is designed, most classes actively EXCEED their power budget by exploiting compounding multipliers. There is also a major inconsistency between classes as to how this do this. Guardians get most of their effective power through Trait Synergy (and which Firebrand breaks, because its an additional layer of power ON TOP of that high Effective power). Theives get their power through trait stacking and skill/field combo. Eles and Engineers get their power by skill spamming. Warriors get their power from conditional modifiers, and build rotations around their triggers.

Rev's underlying problem is the same one Rangers suffer from..... poor trait/skill synergy that is being compensated for by very narrow force multiplication. At face value, most Ranger weapon and Utilities are very powerful in isolation; and is largely why the class is so durable in open world. But when put under any amount of stress, those skills can't keep pace with other classes, except with a hand full of very specific combinations. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, if it wasn't for the fact that Ranger's effective power caps faster then any other class, and has very few options to get around this problem (which is why nearly every build relies heavily on Quick Draw).

With the Rev, they lack the diversity of utilities, but the individual skills are (by far) the strongest set of skills in Isolation. That fact has largely been whats carrying Rev through HOT, and would be insanely over powered if allowed to mix and match them. But their counter balance factors, ie high energy costs, prevents their skills from being used in complex skill chains that every other class uses to deliver their roles. From a build perspective, its a sustain class with poor responsiveness in a game that operates heavily on Bursty responses. Looking at both PvP and WvW, Rev has to be played very Predicatively, and gets little to no pay out of that prediction is wrong. In PvE, where everything is predictable, the class shines a lot brighter.... until they're faced with 2 or more mechanics to counter. Now when you look at the skill division for their utilities, the designer's goal was to avoid skill combinations for stacking power- supposedly with the intent that each skill is good enough on their own to handle a specific situation.

Which brings us to why the Renegade falls apart..... its the same concepts taken to a logical extreme, but the whole kit is vulnerable to hard counters. The only thing thats changed is that Kala has generic trait synergy with Condi damage, where as Herald has synergy with Power. But Glint also has access to 2 very strong life saver skills if timed correctly: Facet of Light and Facet of Chaos. Name one skill in the entire Kala kit that could do the same? The Knock down on ScorchRazor is as close as it gets. The short bow skills are too slow for the 900 range in any PvP mode, and lacks ramping or utility in PvE... so naturally Condi Revs are falling back on the higher potency of Mace/Axe. As for the utilities..... its that combination of short duration, high cost, and easily countered that make using those skills borderline wasteful. On the off chance they do land for full effect, that effect is so minor that it barely sets up the target for a follow up (and by that time you're already out of energy).

Break it all down, and you'll realize that adding more skills won't fix the problem of the design intent of those skills NOT being meant to be chained.

I'm glad you wrote a whole dissertation without reading or understanding the original post.

[otto.5684]

I hate switching out of Mallyx when playing condi rev. Neither Kalla or any other legend offer skills with much use aside from Mallyx. Sadly, you are bound by energy or healing requirement to switch. It sucks. I often wounder how much better condi rev in sPvP will be if I do not worry about energy, but select skills that I want.

I would probably select:Empowering Misery from Mallyx for healing.Riposting Shadows from Shiro for CC break.Unyielding Anguish from Mallyx.Facet of Elements from Glint.Facet of Chaos from Glint.

That would be awesome.

The biggest issue with the current system is you get skills that have no use either due to them not working for the game mode or their energy cost is ridiculous.

Sadly, nothing will happen. Every patch for the last 12-18 month have only weakened rev and reduced options. With Renegade being a major dud with 20% condi damage bonus.

I am optimistic Rev will be buffed, however, I do not see any form of diversity being added..