Celestial will increase concentration and expertise. Celestial troll weaver will be back ?

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Quote

The Superior Sigil of the Stars now also increases concentration and expertise.

The Celestial stat combination on gear now also increases concentration and expertise. The per-stat values have not been decreased.

 

Full celestial ascended armor (207 points) : +13.8% BD and +13.8% CD

Full celestial ascended accessories (314 points) : +20.9% BD and +20.9% CD

Full celestial ascended gear (639 points) : +42.6% BD and +42.6% CD (and 30% precision)

This is HUGE.

 

In the current state, celestial is underperforming for many reasons, compared to more focused gears and builds, but elem benefits the most of all stats in most of its builds, and some celestial pieces are always a good choice to improve bulk.

But with the future patch full celestial will be out of control for Elem.

+42.6% BD will deeply help to stack and maintain mights, and so compensate for the low power/condi base stat or replace sigils/runes accumulated to this singular role. But also help with Vigor, Protection, fury, regen, etc with arcane lane.

+42.6% CD ... Well, it's +40% condi damage too, but also +40% chill, vulnerability (percing shard), cripple, weakness (superior elements) ...

 

For example take my main roaming build (which is close to the "standard" roaming build I guess ) but here with full celestial and add +42.% CD and BD

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAgilZwkYRMImJmcXZvUA-z1IY1oh/MKVCEtCQxTzEetA-w

Imagine EASY CHEESY perma 25 mights (arcane, runes sigil etc) perma fury (runes + unravel + convergence), perma Protection, almost perma vigor (or with Renewing Stamina), but also the duration of weakness in this build ( synergy with superior elements, convergence etc), vulnerability, burning, I also have almost 2sec of quickness every 9sec... You also have Weave Self to increase +20% BD again.

But it works too with Fire lane, as you have +40% free burning duration ; Pyromancer's Puissance could also be a viable trait with increased BD and CD.

 

This is ridiculously INSANE and IMO elem or celestial will be nerf in the month after the release.

 

Edit* I posted here, because devs can't see the elem forum for weird reason.

Ah ah ah they can't see me !!!

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Arheundel.6451]

Do you think ele is the only one that can use celestial? 

I can use this as it's not even all of it : http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POgAceDMNMB8AMi0A-z1IY1oh/EU80MhXLA-w , I can run cele war, necro, engi, guardian (retaliation changed to resolution which will pretty cut most of your burn dmg), furthermore with that level of toughness...you'll be pretty much oneshotted by grenade runaway holo and OWP soulbeast especially with you running s/d.

 

You are greatly overestimating the benefits of an additional 42% concentration, it's merely an extra 2s on a boon from the base duration and ele hasn't got access to the most powerful boons like quickness/alacrity/resolution.

 

I have made a thread about the dangers of adding concentration to celestial but ele...it's definitely not the one I was worried about, I am concerned about the arrival of power roamin firebrands especially now that mantra have no charges, boonbeast, holos, core necros....compared to these a simple water weaver is the least of my or anybody concerns

Edited May 1, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

You don't only benefits of 42% BD or 42% CD you could already access with runes, or Diviner/Vipere, moa stance, etc; you benefits BOTH with no loss.

This isn't either excessive duration (or stats power/condition) which does not correspond to the needs, to the gameplay of your builds, your class.

For example excessive bleeding duration, excessive chill duration, or when you don't have condi cover, condi synergy.

Same for boons; they don't have the same value depending on your class, your gameplay; +2sec protection or vigor is huge when you're stuck in melee with light armor  than with heavy armor and shield/block or range with pew pew and kites/stealth. I hope you get that.

 

The change to Celestial isn't the same improvement and same building for all and  you are greatly underestimating the benefits of both for Elem, while you give value to celestial for others when they don't rely on healing power, bulk, or both condi and power, etc.

 

I agree the changes to Celestial could make more dangerous monsters than weaver, or at least more annoying to fight; like Herald/Ren, may be hybrid SB.

But even them, why would they build celestial with a lost of burst, damage, when they already have sufficient sustain otherwise, when they already have all boons granted ?

Plus, no matter how far we're still behind  others since years, no matter if it also buffs others classes; it doesn't mean the benefit isn't consequent or is smaller, and so not worth to appreciate.

Plus 2500 toughness, not enough ? Wow, dude. I play melee weaver with 2k toughness and 16k vitality. I don't get OS by holo. (Also because of Vigor/protection/regen)

 

 

Edit* I read your topic, and I agree. The change to Celestial is a threat to roaming,  a risk to see bulky hybrid builds everwhere, and rub out the rock/paper/scissor.

But the manner you said it would be useless for elem, this is wrong at so many levels. Elem will benefits the most from this change; way more than others.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

You don't only benefits of 42% BD or 42% CD you could already access with runes, or Diviner/Vipere, moa stance, etc; you benefits BOTH with no loss.

This isn't either excessive duration (or stats power/condition) which does not correspond to the needs, to the gameplay of your builds, your class.

For example excessive bleeding duration, excessive chill duration, or when you don't have condi cover, condi synergy.

Same for boons; they don't have the same value depending on your class, your gameplay; +2sec protection or vigor is huge when you're stuck in melee with light armor  than with heavy armor and shield/block or range with pew pew and kites/stealth. I hope you get that.

 

The change to Celestial isn't the same improvement and same building for all and  you are greatly underestimating the benefits of both for Elem, while you give value to celestial for others when they don't rely on healing power, bulk, or both condi and power, etc.

 

I agree the changes to Celestial could make more dangerous monsters than weaver, or at least more annoying to fight; like Herald/Ren, may be hybrid SB.

But even them, why would they build celestial with a lost of burst, damage, when they already have sufficient sustain otherwise, when they already have all boons granted ?

Plus, no matter how far we're still behind  others since years, no matter if it also buffs others classes; it doesn't mean the benefit isn't consequent or is smaller, and so not worth to appreciate.

Plus 2500 toughness, not enough ? Wow, dude. I play melee weaver with 2k toughness and 16k vitality. I don't get OS by holo.

Healing power is not wasted on other profession, it's just not essential like it's with ele when talking about roaming (yeah semi essential in some fringe example but still....) and the build you posted it's full celestial sitting at 1660 toughness. Let's not generalize, it's not like every single engi out there is a decent player, I am assuming you meet a decent one and yeah a grenade barrage can potentially oneshot you with that level of toughness.

 

Ofc celestial weaver will abuse the hell out of the new stats but it won't be the worst cele build out there that's what I am saying, both the community and the devs should get ready for the barrage of holos/firebrand/core guard in WvW and I can say this as somebody who played guard for 1.2k hrs

[Jski.6180]

Not at all weaver dose not have enofe good boons to realty need that boon duration and condis are about to get a massive in in dmg effect though -33% condi dmg take that was simply not there befor.

 

You will need to build more all in for condi dmg and power dmg now sadly you may not be able to do both on weaver that well (your more likely to do ok power dmg then condi dmg even with the 5% EoR power dmg nerf 5% condi dmg is nothing vs -33% condi dmg.)

 

Ele was nerf yet agen for the last 3 years? we have nothing but nerfs.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Not at all weaver dose not have enofe good boons to realty need that boon duration and condis are about to get a massive in in dmg effect though -33% condi dmg take that was simply not there befor.

 

You will need to build more all in for condi dmg and power dmg now sadly you may not be able to do both on weaver that well (your more likely to do ok power dmg then condi dmg even with the 5% EoR power dmg nerf 5% condi dmg is nothing vs -33% condi dmg.)

 

Ele was nerf yet agen for the last 3 years? we have nothing but nerfs.

 

 

Of course. But I still think this can be a huge buff for most of hybrids builds.

 

Most of ele roamers I know play with mixed gear, not with the will to be "Hybrid", to do both condi and power, but because they need the bulk, they need the healing power, and Celestial is often the best  choice. Plus they also play with sigil of energy, of battle, runes with boon duration like Pack or durability. ..

On contrary, no war or thief or holo play with celestial; they don't have the same needs or evidences.

 

If we buff celestial for them ; longer support boons, longer mights/fury,  longer cripple, weakness, chill ... with some changes they could play more offensive builds or sigils/runes.

And that's what I'll try at the release :

I'm almost full marauder, Water or Fire/arcane/weaver with some celestial and harrier in weapons and accessories. I think I'll play with full celestial ascended accessories because it will allow me to play Fire/Air without Arcane boons.

 

For others; they started with the fact Celestial was not a good option; certainly it will evolve and they will have reconsider it.

But due to this fact, and because most of them are already cheesy classes with less needs compared to elem; the benefit won't be equal or higher than for Elem.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Jski.6180]

16 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

 

Of course. But I still think this can be a huge buff for most of hybrids builds.

 

Most of ele roamers I know play with mixed gear, not with the will to be "Hybrid", to do both condi and power, but because they need the bulk, they need the healing power, and Celestial is often the best  choice. Plus they also play with sigil of energy, of battle, runes with boon duration like Pack or durability. ..

On contrary, no war or thief or holo play with celestial; they don't have the same needs or evidences.

 

If we buff celestial for them ; longer support boons, longer mights/fury,  longer cripple, weakness, chill ... with some changes they could play more offensive builds or sigils/runes.

And that's what I'll try at the release :

I'm almost full marauder, Water or Fire/arcane/weaver with some celestial and harrier in weapons and accessories. I think I'll play with full celestial ascended accessories because it will allow me to play Fire/Air without Arcane boons.

 

For others; they started with the fact Celestial was not a good option; certainly it will evolve and they will have reconsider it.

But due to this fact, and because most of them are already cheesy classes with less needs compared to elem; the benefit won't be equal or higher than for Elem.

 

 

On its own its is a buff but because of the condi protection effect hybrid builds are effectively dead for max dmg. Your old 1k burn ticks are now only going to hit for 700. Its a massive dmg nerf even if the duration is a bit better.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

3 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Healing power is not wasted on other profession, it's just not essential like it's with ele when talking about roaming (yeah semi essential in some fringe example but still....) and the build you posted it's full celestial sitting at 1660 toughness. Let's not generalize, it's not like every single engi out there is a decent player, I am assuming you meet a decent one and yeah a grenade barrage can potentially oneshot you with that level of toughness.

 

Ofc celestial weaver will abuse the hell out of the new stats but it won't be the worst cele build out there that's what I am saying, both the community and the devs should get ready for the barrage of holos/firebrand/core guard in WvW and I can say this as somebody who played guard for 1.2k hrs

 

 

Yes I was talking about armor, not toughness base value. 

Still if you're afraid to be instant dead with full celestial elem ... wow ...  It means everybody die too, wars, heralds... It means Fresh Air Weavers/tempests don't even exist. Or you need to explain me how you play guard.

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Jski.6180]

24 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

 

Yes I was talking about armor, not toughness base value. 

Still if you're afraid to be instant dead with full celestial elem ... wow ...  It means everybody die too, wars, heralds... It means Fresh Air Weavers/tempests don't even exist. Or you need to explain me how you play guard.

 

The funny thing is now ele has become the worst class vs condi as it has no condi protection effect or "retaliation" of any type and or light fields.

 

So even from a def stand point cele gear update is not going to help weaver at all. They made every other class more able to deal with condis and ele dose less condi dmg and YET less ability to deal with condi dmg then other classes.

 

This is a MASSIVE nerf to cele weaver.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pain_Inverter

Pain inverter has become the best def skill for ele / weaver to run now. Its just THAT bad now. Anet realty messed up.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Jski.6180

[Downstate.4697]

Going full cele to roam would work if you could generate 25 might at 100% uptime. It also needs to be able to be stacked quickly as it may be ripped off you.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

3 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Going full cele to roam would work if you could generate 25 might at 100% uptime. It also needs to be able to be stacked quickly as it may be ripped off you.

 

This is quite easy for melee elem to reach 25 mights while fighting, if we gear for it.

Runes of pack/firework, sigil of battle/srength, then with d/d or sw/d, evasive arcana, you can easily blast fire fields sometimes. Glyphs, unravel, Arcane traits etc, weaveself. Even the pyramancer's puissance, with weaver, there is no real issue to earn back the lost mights. It's even easier with tempest.  You also have food, like the +40% endurance regen and the might on dodge.

The extra boon duration will  help to maintain mights above >20; even if we lost some with corruption/boonstrip.

 

It will also help to abandon one of these utilities, like a sigil or the runes, for something else, like runes of Eagle, scholar or berserker, balthazar, a sigil of severance, bloodlust/stars ...

 

Obviously I'm not saying this will be the best build ever, or to build 100% full celestial; but that elem will benefit a lot of this; IMO more than any other.

And as many elems already play with Celestial pieces, or mixed gear with random stuff; it's good to reconsider it.

[Jski.6180]

5 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

This is quite easy for melee elem to reach 25 mights while fighting, if we gear for it.

Runes of pack/firework, sigil of battle/srength, then with d/d or sw/d, evasive arcana, you can easily blast fire fields sometimes. Glyphs, unravel, Arcane traits etc, weaveself. Even the pyramancer's puissance, with weaver, there is no real issue to earn back the lost mights. It's even easier with tempest.  You also have food, like the +40% endurance regen and the might on dodge.

The extra boon duration will  help to maintain mights above >20; even if we lost some with corruption/boonstrip.

 

It will also help to abandon one of these utilities, like a sigil or the runes, for something else, like runes of Eagle, scholar or berserker, balthazar, a sigil of severance, bloodlust/stars ...

 

Obviously I'm not saying this will be the best build ever, or to build 100% full celestial; but that elem will benefit a lot of this; IMO more than any other.

And as many elems already play with Celestial pieces, or mixed gear with random stuff; it's good to reconsider it.

It use to work but this is all before the -33% condi dmg done that they are adding in i do not see even cap might being enofe to over come this added def effect with no real upgrade to weaver condi dmg out put and with a real nerf to weaver power dmg.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I really think you're overestimating the impact adding boon and condi duration to celestial will have.  Condition duration is really not that helpful in competitive mode.  Where it counts, cleansing will reduce the impact of expertise to practically nothing.  Meanwhile, this nutso 33% condition damage reduction boon is likely going to push most condition-centric builds out of the meta.

 

There is no way this offsets in favor of condition hybrids.  It'll be a DPS loss most of the time and a negligible gain the rest.  If condi hybrids (and condition builds in general) are to be a thing, they either need to reevaluate this new boon or do something about the absolutely insane amount of cleansing in this game.  It's long since overwhelmed condi in group play and is part of an arms race that nobody benefits from.  This boon is a weak solution to the symptom of that problem.  But ANet will do what they will do.

 

Having said that, I'm definitely looking forward to trying some celestial builds anyway.

[Downstate.4697]

Yeah 33% less condi damage plus condi removal sources might make condi bad in group play. Not many professions have access to retal though

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

58 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I really think you're overestimating the impact adding boon and condi duration to celestial will have.  Condition duration is really not that helpful in competitive mode.  Where it counts, cleansing will reduce the impact of expertise to practically nothing.  Meanwhile, this nutso 33% condition damage reduction boon is likely going to push most condition-centric builds out of the meta.

 

There is no way this offsets in favor of condition hybrids.  It'll be a DPS loss most of the time and a negligible gain the rest.  If condi hybrids (and condition builds in general) are to be a thing, they either need to reevaluate this new boon or do something about the absolutely insane amount of cleansing in this game.  It's long since overwhelmed condi in group play and is part of an arms race that nobody benefits from.  This boon is a weak solution to the symptom of that problem.  But ANet will do what they will do.

 

Having said that, I'm definitely looking forward to trying some celestial builds anyway.

 

 

Look at burning on weaver or traits,  most last less than 4seconds, even just 1second (Primordial stance, lava skin, pyrovortex etc, burning precision, arcane precision) a bit the same for some bleedings.

It means a good part of your conditions will deal damage on their total duration before players cleanses them all; it also means "reasonable" increased duration won't arouse suspicions but will tick at higher number.

When players said Sigil of Smoldering was useless on fireweaver in PvP, because we relied on burst, not duration, and people will cleanse etc; this was wrong, this was stu-pid. We were talking about already brief duration condition too short for people to react in time, not 15 or 20 seconds bleedings with totaly different damage base and coef anyway.

 

Same I think you underestimate the importance of others non-damaging  condition; like, chilled, weakness, immob. Strong by the effects, but also by the pressure and mental you set it.  1-2 sec chilled, you don't care.  3sec chilled you start to panic and you may want to burn an utility to cleanse and avoid melee burst. It's really cool when you see your chilled last long after primordial stance, right the time to swap attunement for a burst ... for example ...

Or the immob on earthen rush; with no condition duration the immob doesn't last the time you cast Churning Earth, it means the foe can dodge at the end and you may have lost 2sec for nothing. With some condition duration, immob last more than 2sec ... boom.

Same with weakness, cripple, with vulnerability, mostly when you also have synergy in traits with them for free damage/precision.

 

Here again i'm not* saying you must gear with viperine or condi runes in a power or hybrid build; but this is important to consider and not underestimate or ignore.

Free Condi duration on elem... "Hmm no, it's useless" What !!??

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Jski.6180]

6 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

 

Look at burning on weaver or traits,  most last less than 4seconds, even just 1second (Primordial stance, lava skin, pyrovortex etc, burning precision, arcane precision) a bit the same for some bleedings.

It means a good part of your conditions will deal damage on their total duration before players cleanses them all; it also means "reasonable" increased duration won't arouse suspicions but will tick at higher number.

When players said Sigil of Smoldering was useless on fireweaver in PvP, because we relied on burst, not duration, and people will cleanse etc; this was wrong, this was stu-pid. We were talking about already brief duration condition too short for people to react in time, not 15 or 20 seconds bleedings with totaly different damage base and coef anyway.

 

Same I think you underestimate the importance of others non-damaging  condition; like, chilled, weakness, immob. Strong by the effects, but also by the pressure and mental you set it.  1-2 sec chilled, you don't care 3sec chilled you start to panic and you may want to burn an utility to cleanse and avoid melee burst or focus. It's really cool when you see your chilled last long after primordial stance, right the time to swap attunement for a burst ... for example ...

Or the immob on earthen rush; with no condition duration the immob doesn't last the time you cast Churning Earth, it means the foe can dodge at the end and you may have lost 2sec for nothing. With some condition duration, immob last more than 2sec ... boom.

Same with weakness, cripple, with vulnerability, mostly when you also have synergy in traits with them for free damage/precision.

 

Here again i'm not* saying you must gear with viperine or condi runes in a power or hybrid build; but this is important to consider and not underestimate.

Free Condi duration on elem... "Hmm no, it's useless" What !!??

 

 

You are forgetting every thing else in the game and forces too much on something that is effectively meaningless because OF every thing else.

 

Its cool your getting condi duration and boon duration but what about the other things?

 

Your point is how cele going to be on weaver after the update and not just that cele is getting an update.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

26 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

You are forgetting every thing else in the game and forces too much on something that is effectively meaningless because OF every thing else.

 

Its cool your getting condi duration and boon duration but what about the other things?

 

Your point is how cele going to be on weaver after the update and not just that cele is getting an update.

 

 

Obviously, may be because we are on Elementalist Sub-forum !!?? 🙃

Plus you're always defeatist, and negative. I don't care if it's the best patch or not for ele, if ele is the best class everywhere or the last ;  I can't influence it. But I try to handle what it comes and use all tools. I may complain after the patch, wilth the full patchnote, with the experience; or not.

 

I get it, some classes will have "resolution".

Some classes also have condi cleanse, also have healing skills, blocks and kites; they don't want to die and they want you dead.

Okai, this is really annoying for you, for me, for all. Still, how many classes have resolution ? How many will build for and spam perma "Resolution" over others cleanses/sustain ?

 

Plus if we get ~50% CD, and others get -33% on conditio ... actually there is no nerf !?

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Jski.6180]

2 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

 

Obviously, may be because we are on Elementalist Sub-forum !!?? 🙃

Plus you're always defeatist, and negative. I don't care if it's the best patch or not for ele, if ele is the best class everywhere or the last ;  I can't influence it. But I try to handle what it comes and use all tools. I may complain after the patch, wilth the full patchnote, with the experience; or not.

 

I get it, some classes will have "resolution".

Some classes also have condi cleanse, also have healing skills, blocks and kites; they don't want to die and they want you dead.

Okai, this is really annoying for you, for me, for all. Still, how many classes have resolution ? How many will build for and spam perma "Resolution" over others cleanses/sustain ?

 

Plus if we get ~50% CD, and others get -33% on CD ... actually there is no nerf !?

 

 

They nerfed ele every update for the last 5 years how cant you be defeatist at this point is beyond me.

 

Classes are not losing condi clears they are simply getting condi dmg protection and anet thinks weaver should do power dmg and condi dmg at the same amount so they are nerfing weaver power dmg and NOT buffing weaver condi dmg. They only buffed burning for core ele and weaver and even you seem to forget bleed is a major part of ele condi dmg because its soo pointless.

 

Weaver is not getting any cdr of any type just power dmg nerfs.

[CETheLucid.3964]

13 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Celestial troll weaver will be back?

 

Doubt it. It's not the same scene from what, 5+ years ago? You can't run it in PvP at all. Could be a decent spec in WvW. Ele probably will utilize it the best. I can definitely see mixing a few pieces in to top off stats.