[Vid] WvW is far from dead, just gotta drum up content sometimes :v

[RisenHowl.2419]

 

[Svarty.8019]

At prime time, WvW often has queues on all maps.

 

... but at off-peak, nowadays the population drops off massively.

The Bagpuss Effect is real!

 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

i mean, offhours population isn't meant to be big. it's rather messing everything up if that's the case. it's what lead to people burning out and the official reason kinda for the tournaments to be removed. big show.

 

outside of that - alone gw2mists site shows that Wvw is surely alive.

[Sylosi.6503]

Classic case of Stockholm syndrome.

[RisenHowl.2419]

On 5/6/2021 at 5:35 AM, Sylosi.6503 said:

Classic case of Stockholm syndrome.

This is clearly capgras syndrome, zeales forgot who his daddy is =/

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

I'll be honest, I do not understand this comp. Is there a reason for the two druids?

 

I understand the Lich Form kinda...all using unstable minions...but that would synergize with a Soulbeast's OneWolf Pack.

 

Is there some facts I'm missing here about where the synergy's are with these choices?

 

Also i noticed the Sigil of Frenzy procs going off. Good choice on the sigil because the math behind it is legitimate.

Edited May 7, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[RisenHowl.2419]

22 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I'll be honest, I do not understand this comp. Is there a reason for the two druids?

 

I understand the Lich Form kinda...all using unstable minions...but that would synergize with a Soulbeast's OneWolf Pack.

 

Is there some facts I'm missing here about where the synergy's are with these choices?

 

Also i noticed the Sigil of Frenzy procs going off. Good choice on the sigil because the math behind it is legitimate.

There are reasons, and there are some facts you're missing =D

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

18 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

There are reasons, and there are some facts you're missing =D

 

Ya i spent some more time thinking on it and, at least with the little information i have to work off of, i can see what's happening here and why you made the choices you did.

 

There are some inefficiencies with what you're doing, but there's also some good theory-craft here. Overall the idea itself is sound. Mind if I ask a question? This comp isn't power only, it's hybrid also right?

Edited May 9, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Pharaohz.3470]

Quote

WvW is far from dead

 

Fake news again. Off prime = Dead and sometimes even on Prime Time it's Dead now. (EU serv)

[RisenHowl.2419]

3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Ya i spent some more time thinking on it and, at least with the little information i have to work off of, i can see what's happening here and why you made the choices you did.

 

There are some inefficiencies with what you're doing, but there's also some good theory-craft here. Overall the idea itself is sound. Mind if I ask a question? This comp isn't power only, it's hybrid also right?

Oh?

 

please, tell me what inefficiencies. If you could explain it solely through calculus that would be ideal :v

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 minute ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

Oh?

 

please, tell me what inefficiencies. If you could explain it solely through calculus that would be ideal :v

 

Based on the little information I can gleam from the video, The first is that I imagine your using the Druids for Grace of The Land, to buff your reapers with Might, that are running Death Magic over spite/damage trees. This is cool theory craft. But the Might gain only effects 5 targets in WvW/PVP. So the reason you have 2 of them instead of 4, the only reason I can deduce that you have this is because you are using Glyph of the Stars, which has a 10 target cap on it, and you don't want to waste that target cap.

 

In reality, the pulses from the glyph aren't long enough to worry about whether you are overlapping on the target cap effect, which barely lasts more then a second. In addition, this skill is a massive condition cleanse. Meanwhile you also have I am assuming, standard meta PoP scrappers. You're essentially making your scrappers compete with your druids over condition cleanse, which is one skill on the druids bar, vs an entire roll that your Engi's are basically dedicated towards. In addition these druids are healers, just like your scrappers, and so they also will compete for condition cleansing and healing, with also Guardians being healers, you essentially have your reapers as the only damage dealers, relying on lich form to initiate a huge spike to create a snowball effect.

 

And of course you have the lone DH which is a burn DH...which is probably applying burning and the conditions are being covered by the excessive conditions being pumped out by the reapers, which must be power. I get that and it's interesting. But this comp relys on that single bomb, which has an enormous cooldown, and the sustain of your comp is limited because Druids aren't exactly the best healers for WvW (They lack Astral generation)

 

Again, I'm just pointing out the redundancies or the issues in the comp that maybe you have or havn't noticed. The idea itself, is good and your doing awesome with it.

[RisenHowl.2419]

15 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Based on the little information I can gleam from the video, The first is that I imagine your using the Druids for Grace of The Land, to buff your reapers with Might, that are running Death Magic over spite/damage trees. This is cool theory craft. But the Might gain only effects 5 targets in WvW/PVP. So the reason you have 2 of them instead of 4, the only reason I can deduce that you have this is because you are using Glyph of the Stars, which has a 10 target cap on it, and you don't want to waste that target cap.

 

In reality, the pulses from the glyph aren't long enough to worry about whether you are overlapping on the target cap effect, which barely lasts more then a second. In addition, this skill is a massive condition cleanse. Meanwhile you also have I am assuming, standard meta PoP scrappers. You're essentially making your scrappers compete with your druids over condition cleanse, which is one skill on the druids bar, vs an entire roll that your Engi's are basically dedicated towards. In addition these druids are healers, just like your scrappers, and so they also will compete for condition cleansing and healing, with also Guardians being healers, you essentially have your reapers as the only damage dealers, relying on lich form to initiate a huge spike to create a snowball effect.

 

And of course you have the lone DH which is a burn DH...which is probably applying burning and the conditions are being covered by the excessive conditions being pumped out by the reapers, which must be power. I get that and it's interesting. But this comp relys on that single bomb, which has an enormous cooldown, and the sustain of your comp is limited because Druids aren't exactly the best healers for WvW (They lack Astral generation)

 

Again, I'm just pointing out the redundancies or the issues in the comp that maybe you have or havn't noticed. The idea itself, is good and your doing awesome with it.

 

so, no calculus? =/

 

i've crossed out the incorrect assumptions for you. try again =D

Edited May 9, 2021 by RisenHowl.2419

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

 

so, no calculus? =/

 

i've crossed out the incorrect assumptions for you. try again =D

 

If you aren't using Grace of the Land, and using Glyph of Stars, then I don't know exactly what you are using the Druids for other then healing/condition cleansing with them. Again there's no reason why you would have two of them rather then 4, or none at all since your PoP scrappers are being starved of both healing and cleansing by competing with your druids.

 

You're talking about calculus in reference to another thread. The calculus here is this : You have a group of 20 players. 11 of these players are some form of support (4 Firebrands, 4 Scrappers, 2 Druids and a Chrono), the other 9 are some form of damage (8 reapers and 1 Dragon-Hunter). If you were to envision the size of your squad on a number line, then this number line goes from 0 to 20, and you can then create relations that keep the size of this number-line constant.

 

If the damage component of your squad is 9:11 then this is the ratio of damage to support in your squad. You can then make a sub-relation, based on how much each member of this squad is actually doing with respect to some other relation. If each druid CAN heal for 10k healing per second, and each damage dealer CAN deal 10k damage per second, then this number line can be seen as the following : 110k Healing : 90k Damage

 

If there is only 50k damage being done to your squad, then your healers, if they are healing an equal amount, get's squashed to keep the relation constant. Means each healer is doing 50k/11... 4500 healing per second. In essence, your healers aren't being fully utilized but are rather competing with your other healers. This is inefficient because you sacrificed damage dealers, for healers, meaning you are losing damage in exchange for healing that you actually don't need.

 

Again you can continue to build more relations, so long as you are keeping the constants the same. Get rid of half your healers, replace them with damage dealers, and have your healers capable of healing more will keep that relation constant, while giving you a better ratio. 5 Healers healing for 10k Healing, 15 damage dealers giving you 10k damage, means you've got 50k healing : 150k damage, and you've satisfied the above relation without losing anything. You can keep going with these relations to find more and more optimal ways to compress the functions of your group down, to get more and more favorable relations.

 

The glyph of stars is a good example of why 10 target abilities are overall better then 5 target abilities...because it can compress the function that would otherwise be two people to 1...a better ratio.

 

Likewise, Reapers creating Minions has a similar relation, in which they create more bodies, that AOE damage statistically spreads out their damage packets too. So this guild you were fighting, if they are all using 5 target abilities, and you have 8 reapers creating 8 minions each with lich form, then they are essentially fighting 64 bodies (rather then 15), and each of the enemies 5 target abilities spread out statistically from hitting 5 packets of damage per body (15 players x 5 targets / 15 bodies), to 1 packet of damage per body...(15 players x 5 targets / 75 bodies) This is actually why the lich form minion summon aspect of the build is a good idea as a form of support, and probably the best part of the theory-craft. It yields you a better ratio, in that you reapers aren't only just damage but also a form of damage mitigation...mitigating over 4/5 of the incoming damage by simply birthing minions.

Edited May 9, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[RisenHowl.2419]

15 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

If you aren't using Grace of the Land, and using Glyph of Stars, then I don't know exactly what you are using the Druids for other then healing/condition cleansing with them. Again there's no reason why you would have two of them rather then 4, or none at all since your PoP scrappers are being starved of both healing and cleansing by competing with your druids.

 

You're talking about calculus in reference to another thread. The calculus here is this : You have a group of 20 players. 11 of these players are some form of support (4 Firebrands, 4 Scrappers, 2 Druids and a Chrono), the other 9 are some form of damage (8 reapers and 1 Dragon-Hunter). If you were to envision the size of your squad on a number line, then this number line goes from 0 to 20, and you can then create relations that keep the size of this number-line constant.

 

If the damage component of your squad is 9:11 then this is the ratio of damage to support in your squad. You can then make a sub-relation, based on how much each member of this squad is actually doing with respect to some other relation. If each druid CAN heal for 10k healing per second, and each damage dealer CAN deal 10k damage per second, then this number line can be seen as the following : 110k Healing : 90k Damage

 

If there is only 50k damage being done to your squad, then your healers, if they are healing an equal amount, get's squashed to keep the relation constant. Means each healer is doing 50k/11... 4500 healing per second. In essence, your healers aren't being fully utilized but are rather competing with your other healers. This is inefficient because you sacrificed damage dealers, for healers, meaning you are losing damage in exchange for healing that you actually don't need.

 

Again you can continue to build more relations, so long as you are keeping the constants the same. Get rid of half your healers, replace them with damage dealers, and have your healers capable of healing more will keep that relation constant, while giving you a better ratio. 5 Healers healing for 10k Healing, 15 damage dealers giving you 10k damage, means you've got 50k healing : 150k damage, and you've satisfied the above relation without losing anything. You can keep going with these relations to find more and more optimal ways to compress the functions of your group down, to get more and more favorable relations.

 

The glyph of stars is a good example of why 10 target abilities are overall better then 5 target abilities...because it can compress the function that would otherwise be two people to 1...a better ratio.

 

Likewise, Reapers creating Minions has a similar relation, in which they create more bodies, that AOE damage statistically spreads out their damage packets too. So this guild you were fighting, if they are all using 5 target abilities, and you have 8 reapers creating 8 minions each with lich form, then they are essentially fighting 64 bodies (rather then 15), and each of the enemies 5 target abilities spread out statistically from hitting 5 packets of damage per body (15 players x 5 targets / 15 bodies), to 1 packet of damage per body...(15 players x 5 targets / 75 bodies) This is actually why the lich form minion summon aspect of the build is a good idea as a form of support, and probably the best part of the theory-craft. It yields you a better ratio, in that you reapers aren't only just damage but also a form of damage mitigation...mitigating over 4/5 of the incoming damage by simply birthing minions.

Much better breakdown!

 

Your healing and dps numbers though are entirely wrong, which is why all the assumptions that follow are also wrong.

 

Missing a number of significant trait interactions as well =/

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

Much better breakdown!

 

Your healing and dps numbers though are entirely wrong, which is why all the assumptions that follow are also wrong.

 

Missing a number of significant trait interactions as well =/

 

The Healing and DPS numbers are just examples to illustrate the relation. It's obvious that you would apply accurate, non arbitrary numbers, since you are the one that actually knows what builds your squad is running, and how much damage and healing they can do.

 

And the statements that follow thereafter aren't assumptions. They are the relations between different variables to keep a particular value constant (the number of people in a squad). You can use any arbitrary set of numbers, and still receive the same relation so long as what is constant holds true. Because you know what your comp is capable of, it's on you to apply the accurate numbers using the same relations. I have the luxury to use arbitrary numbers to describe the relationship.

 

Quote

Missing a number of significant trait interactions as well =/

 

I mean what traits would those be really? I see nothing that your comp is really trying to accomplish other then the Reapers Death Magic + Lich Form thing, which is the only trait interaction worth recognizing in this composition so far, and as I pointed out it has it's flaws because it relies on a burst with 150 second cooldown. 

 

What I see is a squad with very little, melee-oriented damage dealers, using a single strong interaction with a huge cooldown, and reliance on a single player to land a sneaky burst. Not saying it doesn't work...it obviously works. But there are redundancies and inefficiencies in your comp, and I'm pointing them out, so that you can make your comp better.

 

My personal opinion...either make scrappers DPS/Supports, or change your druids from healers into DPS/Supports. Focus less on a short term burst strategy, and focus more on a  long term high pressure strategy. Squeeze more value out of fewer and fewer players, rather then building around a single mechanic.

[RisenHowl.2419]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

The Healing and DPS numbers are just examples to illustrate the relation. It's obvious that you would apply accurate, non arbitrary numbers, since you are the one that actually knows what builds your squad is running, and how much damage and healing they can do.

 

And the statements that follow thereafter aren't assumptions. They are the relations between different variables to keep a particular value constant (the number of people in a squad). You can use any arbitrary set of numbers, and still receive the same relation so long as what is constant holds true. Because you know what your comp is capable of, it's on you to apply the accurate numbers using the same relations. I have the luxury to use arbitrary numbers to describe the relationship.

 

 

I mean what traits would those be really? I see nothing that your comp is really trying to accomplish other then the Reapers Death Magic + Lich Form thing, which is the only trait interaction worth recognizing in this composition so far, and as I pointed out it has it's flaws because it relies on a burst with 150 second cooldown. 

 

What I see is a squad with very little, melee-oriented damage dealers, using a single strong interaction with a huge cooldown, and reliance on a single player to land a sneaky burst. Not saying it doesn't work...it obviously works. But there are redundancies and inefficiencies in your comp, and I'm pointing them out, so that you can make your comp better.

 

My personal opinion...either make scrappers DPS/Supports, or change your druids from healers into DPS/Supports. Focus less on a short term burst strategy, and focus more on a  long term high pressure strategy. Squeeze more value out of fewer and fewer players, rather then building around a single mechanic.

I should've been more clear:

 

-your assumption that there are 11 healers is wildly incorrect

-your assumption that each support is there to heal or cleanse is incorrect. There are more roles to fill than damage and healing

-you touch on the target cap mechanic but don't see the implications when applied to the squad as a whole or where further synergy exists

-you generalize relationships between the classes based on arbitrary numbers, since those values are arbitrary you can't generalize them like you're trying to

-The lich form references crack me up. Why would a 150s CD skill with mainly projectiles for damage be the star of the show here?

 

Pity about you not seeing the trait interactions, either within any given class or between them. Slide on into my dms if you'd like those

Edited May 9, 2021 by RisenHowl.2419

[ArchonWing.9480]

I don't think the druids are healers in this, and nor should they be anyways. They're better for immob.

 

Also every necro elite is a long cd, probably none will come back up as these fights aren't very long so the only other real option is "chilled to the bone" for those reapers. There are reasons for taking either but neither is going to be the focus of anyone's build.

Edited May 9, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

Pity about you not seeing the trait interactions, either within any given class or between them. Slide on into my dms if you'd like those

 

I understand many many trait interactions in the game very well. What I don't understand is your choice behind some of the supposed interactions that you chose.

 

 

Quote

-The lich form references crack me up. Why would a 150s CD skill with mainly projectiles for damage be the star of the show here?

 

Well it's obvious why you chose death magic reapers with lich form right? They spawn minions, that self destruct for quite  a lot of aoe damage, and when they die they create a poison cloud that pulses even more damage and conditions that cover your burn guards conditions. This is again, the only significant trait interaction on this comp that makes sense in terms of extracting a lot of value from very little.  The problem here is that lich has a very long CD, and you spent a TRAITLINE for this one scenario. Yes it's a strong burst, but you put all your eggs into a single 3minute cd basket here. 

 

Quote

-you touch on the target cap mechanic but don't see the implications when applied to the squad as a whole or where further synergy exists

 

Yes i understand the mechanics of target caps very well also. I don't know your druids build...but the only thing on that class that can target 10 targets (aside from spirits) is Glyph of Stars. Glyph of stars is a condition cleanse and provides a buff that stops conditions from inflicting you for 7 second channel. The problem is that you ALSO have scrappers here in every group, and they compete for the same cleansing real estate as your druids...so shaping your squad to accommodate glyph of stars makes not much sense, and you starve your scrappers of conditions as well as healing since I am assuming your druids are healers too.

 

Quote

 

-your assumption that there are 11 healers is wildly incorrect

-your assumption that each support is there to heal or cleanse is incorrect. There are more roles to fill than damage and healing

 

 

Well let's count. 4 Firebrands, 4 Scrappers, 2 druids and a chrono. That seems like 11 supports to me.

 

And i think the calculus flew over your head man. This isn't about just damage and healing, which were just broad examples. This is about taking two variables that can literally be anything, and varying them to keep something constant, so you can determine the actual scaler value of some relationship.

Edited May 9, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

39 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I don't think the druids are healers in this, and nor should they be anyways. They're better for immob.

 

Also every necro elite is a long cd, probably none will come back up as these fights aren't very long so the only other real option is "chilled to the bone" for those reapers. There are reasons for taking either but neither is going to be the focus of anyone's build.

 

I'm kind of trying to be nice here...but druid as a whole also kind of blows. Can you use it as an immobilize bot? Sure...but man is it terrible at getting astral force together without spirits. As a healer I can hardly see it doing anything more then what a scrapper could do now, with the exception of the very brief brief condition immunity.

 

As for the Necro's, ya Lich Form itself isn't a complete surprise. What is a surprise is that it's being used with Death Magic, which takes advantage of a specific trait in there with it's interaction with lich4. Not only that but by taking a defensive traitline he's definitely diminishing the amount of sustained damage that a reaper can do, again for a tradeoff of taking advantage of that brief lichform damage and damage mitigation (from the minions dispersing damage packets)

 

[RisenHowl.2419]

45 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

I understand many many trait interactions in the game very well. What I don't understand is your choice behind some of the supposed interactions that you chose.

 

 

 

Well it's obvious why you chose death magic reapers with lich form right? They spawn minions, that self destruct for quite  a lot of aoe damage, and when they die they create a poison cloud that pulses even more damage and conditions that cover your burn guards conditions. This is again, the only significant trait interaction on this comp that makes sense in terms of extracting a lot of value from very little.  The problem here is that lich has a very long CD, and you spent a TRAITLINE for this one scenario. Yes it's a strong burst, but you put all your eggs into a single 3minute cd basket here. 

 

 

Yes i understand the mechanics of target caps very well also. I don't know your druids build...but the only thing on that class that can target 10 targets (aside from spirits) is Glyph of Stars. Glyph of stars is a condition cleanse and provides a buff that stops conditions from inflicting you for 7 second channel. The problem is that you ALSO have scrappers here in every group, and they compete for the same cleansing real estate as your druids...so shaping your squad to accommodate glyph of stars makes not much sense, and you starve your scrappers of conditions as well as healing since I am assuming your druids are healers too.

 

 

Well let's count. 4 Firebrands, 4 Scrappers, 2 druids and a chrono. That seems like 11 supports to me.

 

And i think the calculus flew over your head man. This isn't about just damage and healing, which were just broad examples. This is about taking two variables that can literally be anything, and varying them to keep something constant, so you can determine the actual scaler value of some relationship.

 

I dunno man, you'd think we would run scourges instead of reapers if the minions are coming from lich. But what could us ignorant folk know that JusticeRetroHunter, the man behind diviner reaper, doesn't?

 

You know that glyphs have different abilities in and out of CA mode, right? :v

 

maybe brush up on the traits and interactions, both within a given class and between them, before casting judgement or offering advice. I feel like i've dropped plenty of hints at this point but instead of improving your understanding all its done is make you stubbornly retreat further into your initial, flawed, ideas. Like I said, a pity

[ArchonWing.9480]

35 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

I'm kind of trying to be nice here...but druid as a whole also kind of blows. Can you use it as an immobilize bot? Sure...but man is it terrible at getting astral force together without spirits. As a healer I can hardly see it doing anything more then what a scrapper could do now, with the exception of the very brief brief condition immunity.

 

As for the Necro's, ya Lich Form itself isn't a complete surprise. What is a surprise is that it's being used with Death Magic, which takes advantage of a specific trait in there with it's interaction with lich4. Not only that but by taking a defensive traitline he's definitely diminishing the amount of sustained damage that a reaper can do, again for a tradeoff of taking advantage of that brief lichform damage and damage mitigation (from the minions dispersing damage packets)

 

I never said Druid was a good idea; I was pointing out they were suboptimal healers lol for the exact same reasons you are and that they are mostly for immob. Maybe they already know that. There's already scrappers in the party.

 

Idk about death magic because I didn't pay that close attention but were they really running minion traits since that trait has other traits you can pick. And yea I consider Death Magic training wheels but who knows. Some people like the survival. Maybe they just picked them up xD

Edited May 9, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[RisenHowl.2419]

we're actually using lb/lb druids. and the fbs are all using gs+axe/t except for me

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Just now, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I never said Druid was a good idea; I was pointing out they were suboptimal healers lol for the exact same reasons you are.

 

Idk about death magic because I didn't pay that close attention but were they really running minion traits since that trait has other traits you can pick. And yea I consider Death Magic training wheels but who knows. Maybe they just picked them up xD

Ya, you can see the minions exploding and leaving behind the poison clouds. 

 

There is a rational behind the death magic selection...which I'm not sure why Risen is denying it but... 8 reapers x 8 minions is 64 x 5 damage packets from the initial explosion, x another 5 from the poison cloud afterward, so 64x5x5 is 1600 damage packets going out from this interaction. 1600 damage packets / 15 players is 100 damage packets per player... In addition it produces poison to reduce healing so that's a huge spike with very big  value....if it actually lands.

 

This is technically supposed to setup the dragon-hunters sneaky spike, which is a burn DH that relies on sticking immobilize and burns on people. Everything else, despite the druids, seem very standard Firebrand and Scrapper. Druids I guess are most likely there for the immobilize like you said and that's probably it.

 

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

11 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

we're actually using lb/lb druids. and the fbs are all using gs+axe/t except for me

 

Well one of your druids was using a staff, and your FB's aren't on the DPS meter....so i'm assuming that they are mostly responsible for healing....and covering conditions which is kind of the plot of the whole comp, again to cover for the actual damage dealer being the DH.

 

(i'm referencing the GvG section of the video btw)

Edited May 9, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[RisenHowl.2419]

2 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Well one of your druids was using a staff, and your FB's aren't on the DPS meter....so i'm assuming that they are mostly responsible for healing....and covering conditions which is kind of the plot of the whole comp, again to cover for the actual damage dealer being the DH.

 

(i'm referencing the GvG section of the video btw)

 

You're funny man XD