Massive Resistance Oversight

[Stand The Wall.6987]

2 hours ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

lmao how is one of the best traits in the game strong for this spec that makes it even better

H O L Y This is the people you guys waste time arguing with. THIS PERSON. LMAOOO

ok. so how is it strong for holo lol? i'm asking an honest question, not arguing at all. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

8 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

ok. so how is it strong for holo lol? i'm asking an honest question, not arguing at all. 

Well, Yolosmith kinda farts boons on left and right by just existing on the field, combine it with incoming boons from other players and you have quite decent passive sustain just from this trait alone, now add other heal sources...

[CutesySylveon.8290]

On 5/19/2021 at 11:26 PM, Math.5123 said:

 

If there are core elements that helps the elite specs carry, you need to nerf the core aspects. 

 

Look at core engineer, since you brought it up. A way to buff it would be to buff a traitline that isn't currently used by holo. 

Say you buff firearms, or tools, so that holo needs to give up either of the other 3 lines they are currently using. This is how you buff core classes.

An example is looking at compounding chemicals, that trait is somewhat weak on core. But it's an immense sustain tool on holo. So it should be tuned down. It doesn't nerf core much but it's a big slap to holo. (Once again, just an example). You could give that healing back as a minor in say, tools or firearms.

 

Take my main class, guardian. They have nerfed many core aspects of it in the past years because of specs, and I think they've made the right decisions. If no core build is viable right now using permeating wrath, delete it and buff the class elsewhere. 

 

Revenant is an entirely different beast because of how it works with legends and how they are not tied to traitlines.

Renegade is using double core legends while it's traits covers the weakness in the core kits. So this will be harder to balance around, especially considering how rev traits are designed. 

Unlike other classes, they have entire lines dedicated to one archetype. 

Taking guard as an example, if you take zeal, virtues and radiance. The grandmasters in all lines will be one power trait, one condi trait and one support trait. So which traitlines to go on Guard is more open than it is to rev. 

 

So I will leave it up to the devs of how to fix that, as I don't have enough experience with the class to make an educated proposal. 

As someone already stated previously, Holo will simply take the best options past the mandatory Holo traitline, so nerfing whatever you're looking at in the core spec just means Holo goes to the next best option and core is hurt worse because it doesn't have Holo. Again, if core isn't an issue by itself but it IS with an elite, then the elite is the problem; there are reasons core isn't run but Holo is despite core having them using largely the same tools. 

 

Same applies with Revenant. If the core aspects that 'help carry the elite' aren't carrying the core class by itself, then you're just treating the symptoms and not the actual illness. 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

On 5/19/2021 at 6:15 PM, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

 

Yep.

 

The wise fix would be to make poison "half-affected" by Resistance. IE having resistance removes the sustain debuff, but you still take damage from poison ticks.

 

 

The best solution is to just have Mallyx's heal ignore poison on its own without resistance. Condi rev has been locked into Demonic Defiance for years because of this oversight and its time they fix it properly.

[Math.5123]

3 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

As someone already stated previously, Holo will simply take the best options past the mandatory Holo traitline, so nerfing whatever you're looking at in the core spec just means Holo goes to the next best option and core is hurt worse because it doesn't have Holo. Again, if core isn't an issue by itself but it IS with an elite, then the elite is the problem; there are reasons core isn't run but Holo is despite core having them using largely the same tools. 

 

Same applies with Revenant. If the core aspects that 'help carry the elite' aren't carrying the core class by itself, then you're just treating the symptoms and not the actual illness. 

Yeah, so if you try and match 3 core lines with holosmiths power level, you bring core up without buffing it. This is really easy on engineer in particular as every build uses alchemy, and either explosives or invention. 

[Kuma.1503]

So the core engi trait we're blaming Holo's overperformance on is Compunding chemicals now? I don't know what to say at this point lol. Go ahead and nerf it. I'll be here waiting when Holo shrugs off the nerf and continues doing what it always has. 

 

You really want to hit Holo's sustain? 

 

Reduce Heat Therapy

Soothing Detonation no longer works when entering and exiting forge. 

 

 

This will cut Holo' sustain by a much larger amount than hitting compouding chemicals.

 

Time for some quick maths.

 

A single soothing deotanion proc is a 340 heal (.2 coeff). You get two of these by entering and exiting forge, totaling a 680 heal (.4 coeff). Holo gets a free 250 healing power when they get regeneration. They have high uptime of regeneration thanks to toss elixir H, Prime light arena, and Renewing mist. 

 

Factoring in just the extra 250 healing power from inventions, you're looking at 

 

340 x 2 = 680

250 x 0.4 = 100

 680+100 = 780 heal just from entering and dropping forge

 

Compounding chemicals is a 37 heal per boon with a .023 coeff. 

 

250 x 0.023 = 5.75 (I'll round this up to 6)

37 + 6 = 43

 

780 / 43 = ~18

 

You need to receive 18 boons in order for compounding chemicals to equal the amount of healing from soothing detonation. Note: The Soothing Detonation healing is what you receive just by entering and exiting forge. Now factor in that the holo will also be using their other toolbelt skills and the number of boons required to break even increases. 

 

To simplify things down: 

 

1 Soothing detonation proc = 9 compounding chemicals procs

 

Compounding chemicals should not be touched. Not only is it an unnecessary core engi nerf, there are more effective ways to reduce Holo's sustain. Tone down Heat therapy, and remove the Soothing Detonation proc from entering and exiting forge. That is what I would do.  

Edited May 21, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[Stand The Wall.6987]

7 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Well, Yolosmith kinda farts boons on left and right by just existing on the field, combine it with incoming boons from other players and you have quite decent passive sustain just from this trait alone, now add other heal sources...

ah yeah didn't know it procced from other players boons, otherwise its not that strong unless combined with full cleanse build + purity of purpose. its still a meh trait on side node tho.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Math.5123]

19 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

So the core engi trait we're blaming Holo's overperformance on is Compunding chemicals now? I don't know what to say at this point lol. Go ahead and nerf it. I'll be here waiting when Holo shrugs off the nerf and continues doing what it always has. 

 

You really want to hit Holo's sustain? 

 

Reduce Heat Therapy

Soothing Detonation no longer works when entering and exiting forge. 

 

 

This will cut Holo' sustain by a much larger amount than hitting compouding chemicals.

 

Time for some quick maths.

 

A single soothing deotanion proc is a 340 heal (.2 coeff). You get two of these by entering and exiting forge, totaling a 680 heal (.4 coeff). Holo gets a free 250 healing power when they get regeneration. They have high uptime of regeneration thanks to toss elixir H, Prime light arena, and Renewing mist. 

 

Factoring in just the extra 250 healing power from inventions, you're looking at 

 

340 x 2 = 680

250 x 0.4 = 100

 680+100 = 780 heal just from entering and dropping forge

 

Compounding chemicals is a 37 heal per boon with a .023 coeff. 

 

250 x 0.023 = 5.75 (I'll round this up to 6)

37 + 6 = 43

 

780 / 43 = ~18

 

You need to receive 18 boons in order for compounding chemicals to equal the amount of healing from soothing detonation. Note: The Soothing Detonation healing is what you receive just by entering and exiting forge. Now factor in that the holo will also be using their other toolbelt skills and the number of boons required to break even increases. 

 

To simplify things down: 

 

1 Soothing detonation proc = 9 compounding chemicals procs

 

Compounding chemicals should not be touched. Not only is it an unnecessary core engi nerf, there are more effective ways to reduce Holo's sustain. Tone down Heat therapy, and remove the Soothing Detonation proc from entering and exiting forge. That is what I would do.  

I just brought the trait up as an example as I stated in my original post. 

I said this trait is a great example of something that just gets so much stronger on holo than on core, and a way to nerf holo would be to move some of the healing to a passive in a third traitline holo can't access, which would leave core untouched. But go ahead and blindly post.

[Kuma.1503]

3 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

I just brought the trait up as an example as I stated in my original post. 

I said this trait is a great example of something that just gets so much stronger on holo than on core, and a way to nerf holo would be to move some of the healing to a passive in a third traitline holo can't access, which would leave core untouched. But go ahead and blindly post.

 

My post wasn't targeted at you specifically. There's more than one person here making the argument that compouding chemicals is the root cause of Holo's over the top sustain, when the math shows that it isn't.