Give Herald 5 man quickness

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Sorry but I see more renegades that heralds in open world where meta means nothing and you use whatever you want, so I really doubt what you are saying. This subforum is not representative of "the majority of Rev population".

 

Open world isn’t necessarily a good barometer. For a long time it was more Heralds than Renegades until it became Alacrigade meta which is when you started to see more Rens than Heralds. I personally play Ren in open world simply because it performs better against groups and elites/champs/legendaries. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Sorry but I see more renegades that heralds in open world where meta means nothing and you use whatever you want, so I really doubt what you are saying. This subforum is not representative of "the majority of Rev population".

I hope you're aware that there's a difference between playing for efficacy and playing because of enjoyment. Obviously these two are connected and overlap to inform decisions whether or not to play a spec, but they are fundamentally different.

 

I'm not sure where else you get your Rev news/speculations/opinions, but for like everyone else it's on this subforum. And it has been the overwhelming consensus on this forum that the Renegade spec is not an enjoyable playstyle for Rev. That doesn't mean its not objectively good and people play it to maximize efficacy, nor that there are no players that actually do enjoy Ren mechanics, but man when they unveiled Ren in their little e-spec video for PoF, oof. And that sentiment continues, whether Ren is meta or not.

 

Regardless, Anet has set up a perfect storm for causing a mass shift of Rev players towards upcoming spec. Heralds love the flavor of Glint but keep losing viable options, while the majority of Ren players are playing for efficacy with no real attachment to the flavor of Kalla. If the next spec is even half-decent at both, there might not be any turning back. 

[Telgum.6071]

7 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

I hope you're aware that there's a difference between playing for efficacy and playing because of enjoyment. Obviously these two are connected and overlap to inform decisions whether or not to play a spec, but they are fundamentally different.

 

I'm not sure where else you get your Rev news/speculations/opinions, but for like everyone else it's on this subforum. And it has been the overwhelming consensus on this forum that the Renegade spec is not an enjoyable playstyle for Rev. That doesn't mean its not objectively good and people play it to maximize efficacy, nor that there are no players that actually do enjoy Ren mechanics, but man when they unveiled Ren in their little e-spec video for PoF, oof. And that sentiment continues, whether Ren is meta or not.

 

Regardless, Anet has set up a perfect storm for causing a mass shift of Rev players towards upcoming spec. Heralds love the flavor of Glint but keep losing viable options, while the majority of Ren players are playing for efficacy with no real attachment to the flavor of Kalla. If the next spec is even half-decent at both, there might not be any turning back. 

I still reading "the majority of revenants", "the majority of players" "most people play Ren for efficacy, not because they like Kalla" Like man where does that info come from? I think you are projecting your vision of the situation towards this chamber of echo named Revenant Subforum, but I will tell you a secret:

 

- Most GW2 players won't ever step here because this forum offers nothing that motivates people to do so, like forum events, lottery and stuff like that, therefore you won't ever be allowed to talk in the name of the majority, because you simply won't ever know what most revenant players want. The most objective metric is seeing what people plays in the areas where they can play whatever they want, and sorry but for every herald player in OW I see five renegades.

I won't take your "the majority of revs" speech, is awful to talk in those terms.

 

And don't get me wrong, as a player who plays both competitive and PVE I enjoy both xpecs, herald for competitive and renegade for PVE so I can say PERSONALLY, NOT IN THE NAME OF THE MAJORITY, that I like Herald and I'm happy with the specialization, although things could be better. But I also think the way to make Herald better in PVE comes from nerfing overperforming classes like firebrand or druid rather than buffing Herald, a class that can reach nearly permanent 100% damage reduction and permanent full squad might and fury. Make 25 might a hard achievement that doesn't come free from a single class and then we'll start seeking another ways to get might, there is a chance for Herald in that situation. Or why not, change the swiftness of the facet of elements for quickness, that would be very good, although permanent 5 or10 man quickness by keeping one facet up is like screaming for nerfs.

 

But saying that Herald is so bad, the majority of revenant players hate Renegade and Herald should be buffed instead just tweaked, or be as overperforming as other supports who should be nerfed? No thanks, I insist: if you want that, your class is Guardian/Firebrand, not Revenant.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[vilesoldier.9826]

6 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I still reading "the majority of revenants", "the majority of players" "most people play Ren for efficacy, not because they like Kalla" Like man where does that info come from?

 

15 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I personally play Ren in open world simply because it performs better against groups and elites/champs/legendaries.

I get it from posts like this ^

I realize that you joined this forum last year, so you might not have known this (tho even I joined a little over 2 years ago but I checked forums every chance I got) but I remember seeing post after post dumping on this spec regardless of its numbers. But hey don't take my word for it, lemme drop some links:

^ Suggested 'redesign' for Kalla, general sentiment is that the spec's numbers are viable, spec is just uninteresting

^lol

^literally post POF launch

Renegade started off with low viability, no one wants to play (make sense). Now Ren is Anet's posterboy for Revenant, and people still want to play Herald? So if it's not entirely it's efficacy that keeps people from picking it up.....maybe players just don't like Kalla???? (tho admittedly this could be more of an issue of Heralds losing options more so than Ren just being one big groan to play)

7 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

The most objective metric is seeing what people plays in the areas where they can play whatever they want, and sorry but for every herald player in OW I see five renegades.

I'm curious what you think it is that these players in OW "want"? to get the most performance out of their spec? maybe enjoyment? what about just testing? for the lols?

And of all the reasons you come up with, you're going to tell me that performance isn't at the top of that list for the majority?

 

7 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Most GW2 players won't ever step here because this forum offers nothing that motivates people to do so, like forum events, lottery and stuff like that, therefore you won't ever be allowed to talk in the name of the majority, because you simply won't ever know what most revenant players want

also this gotta be the funniest thing I've read in a min. "fOrUm EvEnTs, LoTtErY aNd sTuFf lIkE tHaT". Sir this is a forum not some PvE holiday event.

 

[Obtena.7952]

^^ Here is the problem  with that ... what makes ANYONE think people can't and aren't playing Herald? Other than some anecdotes which hardly indicate how or where or who plays Herald ... you're just guessing. What is meta or where Renegade is good has NO indication of Herald demographics because Herald being played isn't limited by game design that forces people into Renegade. 

 

Furthermore, we KNOW that Anet will make changes to the classes that are underplayed ... so if changes AREN'T happening to the classes, then that should be a MASSIVE clue to you on what Anet thinks needs to be changed, INCLUDING hints they drop in patch notes about 'what they like seeing' or 'how classes are in a good place'. 

 

What people need to do here is stop imposing their view of what's going on as reality. If there is a reason to buff Herald and specifically with 5 man boon share quickness, it's NOT because 'underplayed' or 'not meta' or 'doesn't compete' because those reasons are irrelevant or contrived. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Telgum.6071]

18 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

^^ Here is the problem  with that ... what makes ANYONE think no one wants but can't play Herald? Other than some anecdotes which hardly indicate how or where or who plays Herald ... you're just guessing. What is meta or where Renegade is good has NO indication of Herald demographics because Herald being played isn't limited by game design that forces people into Renegade. 

 

Furthermore, we KNOW that Anet will make changes to the classes that are underplayed ... so if changes AREN'T happening to the classes, then that should be a MASSIVE clue to you on what Anet thinks needs to be changed, INCLUDING hints they drop in patch notes about 'what they like seeing' or 'how classes are in a good place'. 

 

What people need to do here is stop imposing their view of what's going on as reality. If there is a reason to buff Herald and specifically with 5 man boon share quickness, it's NOT because 'underplayed' or 'not meta' or 'doesn't compete' because those reasons are irrelevant or contrived. 

100% agree, and I surrender with trying to reason with people like that. 

 

You are right Revenant Herald subforum, literally unplayable xpec, please make it as broken and overtuned as firebrands, give 10man permanent quickness and why not, +25might and fury. Can't go wrong since the vast majority of revenant players want it, according to RandomForumUser.

[vilesoldier.9826]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

^^ Here is the problem  with that ... what makes ANYONE think no one wants but can't play Herald? Other than some anecdotes which hardly indicate how or where or who plays Herald ... you're just guessing. What is meta or where Renegade is good has NO indication of Herald demographics because Herald being played isn't limited by game design that forces people into Renegade. 

I have not implied nor argued that Renegade has in any way hampered who plays Heralds, Herald will always see play, even in places where it might not be wanted (one of my favorites right now is a pvp hammer build w shiro). The argument I've made is that for Renegade specifically, the amount of people that play because "it outshines every other Rev spec" is more than those that play because they are attached to Renegade mechanics. And again, there is going to be overlap, people can enjoy mechanics because they are objectively better, etc.

 

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Furthermore, we KNOW that Anet will make changes to the classes that are underplayed ... so if changes AREN'T happening to the classes, then that should be a MASSIVE clue to you on what Anet thinks needs to be changed, INCLUDING hints they drop in patch notes about 'what they like seeing' or 'how classes are in a good place'. 

Do we? I mean it's a great sentiment to have, and I would rather you be correct about this than I, but I've seen Anet literally say they are seeing limited play in some classes and then go directly limit their options further.

 

3 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

You are right Revenant Herald subforum, literally unplayable xpec, please make it as broken and overtuned as firebrands, give 10man permanent quickness and why not, +25might and fury. Can't go wrong since the vast majority of revenant players want it, according to RandomForumUser.

"literally unplayable xspec" didn't you just say that for every one Herald you see 5 other Renegades? pls pick a side

it's kind of impressive how you strawmaned an argument that I wasn't making, tho I guess this is more directed at the OP more than it is me 🤷‍♀️

Edited June 3, 2021 by GeneralBM.5781

[Obtena.7952]

46 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

The argument I've made is that for Renegade specifically, the amount of people that play because "it outshines every other Rev spec" is more than those that play because they are attached to Renegade mechanics. 

And that's not a problem that needs to be fixed. I mean, people are just exercising their choices here based on their OWN reasons to do so. If people are willing to compromise their desire to play something just because something else is 'better', that's not something Anet needs to fix for them. In fact, that ability for players to choose how they want to play, based on how they rank their OWN criteria for making that choice is most certainly intended to be how this game works. 

 

Do we? 

 

Yeah we do ... read the patch notes. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[vilesoldier.9826]

21 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

And that's not a problem that needs to be fixed. I mean, people are just exercising their choices here based on their OWN reasons to do so. If people are willing to compromise their desire to play something just because something else is 'better', that's not something Anet needs to fix for them. In fact, that ability for players to choose how they want to play, based on how they rank their OWN criteria for making that choice is most certainly intended to be how this game works. 

I'm on the same page, I got no issues with it either. I'm not the Rev police, play whatever you want for whatever reason. I'm on@Telgum.6071's case for trying to say that bc OW has more Renegades currently than Heralds then the majority of players wouldn't have preferred different mechanics than what Renegade offered. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by GeneralBM.5781

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

And that's not a problem that needs to be fixed. I mean, people are just exercising their choices here based on their OWN reasons to do so. If people are willing to compromise their desire to play something just because something else is 'better', that's not something Anet needs to fix for them. In fact, that ability for players to choose how they want to play, based on how they rank their OWN criteria for making that choice is most certainly intended to be how this game works. 

 

Do we? 

 

Yeah we do ... read the patch notes. 

You can call "take renegade or the highway" when wanting to join fractal groups as rev an "own choice".
I'll stick to calling it a problem.

Edited June 3, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Obtena.7952]

22 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

You can call "take renegade or the highway" when wanting to join fractal groups as rev an "own choice".
I'll stick to calling it a problem.

You can call it whatever you want; whatever you name it is of no consequence. The important thing here is to recognize that the solution to your problem already exists;  choices you make on how you play the game. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

16 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You can call it whatever you want; whatever you name it is of no consequence. The important thing here is to recognize that the solution to your problem already exists;  choices you make on how you play the game. 

We have a very different definition of "choice" here.

If you want to reliably get into a fractal pug and have a real choice, then only dps slots offer that. I think there is only one spec that would be rejected, that being core necro. Everything else gets a shot.

But healers or supports? You've about as much choice as in China about what party should rule..
If you're not alacrigade or Healer Firebrand, than joining a group as support is roll of the dice. Some will say "sure", others will give you the boot before you even say hi. That means only the two mentioned above can simply join group and start doing their job.
Others may get lucky, or may end up waiting a long time for a group that is more open to non-meta supports and healers.


 

Edited June 4, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

We have a very different definition of "choice" here.

If you want to reliably get into a fractal pug and have a real choice, then only dps slots offer that. 
 

No, that's not true. We are faced with the same choices in this game and how you choose to get teams for instanced content is no exception. The difference is that your main criteria for making this choice is reliability to get into a fractal PUG ... and mine isn't. That's why you suffer being 'picked' and 'kicked' and I don't. 

 

So again, choice is the fix to your problem, not Anet changing classes so that you aren't conflicted by the choices you are making. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Or we can strive for better balance and see real choice in form of LFG's being "1 healer, 1 support" because each option will be good and not vastly inferior or superior (firebrand) to others..

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Or we can strive for better balance and see real choice in form of LFG's being "1 healer, 1 support" because each option will be good and not vastly inferior or superior (firebrand) to others..

That's an option ... except what is the motivation for Anet to do that when the intent is for people to play how they want ... and they can do it? The fact the game is balanced on the content side to allow a large range of builds to enable that from the beginning of the game? I just don't see it. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's an option ... except what is the motivation for Anet to do that when the intent is for people to play how they want ... and they can do it?

Oh i don't know - keeping the playerbase happy and getting new ones? Last time I checked good balance is stuff of legends when it comes to longevity of a game, while bad one sends ppl packing to competition.

And if outta 6 healers only one is desired and outta 9 supports again only one is desired, I would say there's plenty of benefit to reap for a-net in terms of customer satisfaction..

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Oh i don't know - keeping the playerbase happy and getting new ones? Last time I checked good balance is stuff of legends when it comes to longevity of a game, while bad one sends ppl packing to competition.

And if outta 6 healers only one is desired and outta 9 supports again only one is desired, I would say there's plenty of benefit to reap for a-net in terms of customer satisfaction..

You talk about game longevity and the need for balance to get it, like somehow the game was only released yesterday? You talk about customer satisfaction, yet I know lots of people doing instanced content playing how they want and loving it. I don't think your narrative here makes much sense here. The things you say we don't have ... we do. You just don't see them because of how you choose to play. 

 

What I think is that people lean on the obvious pain points to paint the picture classes need buffs because buffs are wanted, not because they are needed. 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I call for buff for herald on a 5 man group scale. Because it is needed.
That doesn't mean i want everything buffed. I see a fair bit of space for nerfs (scourge, firebrand, alacrigade).

But here and now I'm talking herald as support. Key to being a support is not simply providing standard value (boons, defenses, healing, cc) but to also provide something unique. In case of Herald the unique part is moved from "what?" to "how?".
It's the ability to provide extremely reliable and easy to manage boon coverage for full 10 man raid group.

But once things go down to 5 man group huge part of that unique identity is taken out of the picture, while nothing given to make him a competitive support in such scenarios as well. Any support worth his salt can provide boons for 5 man group, that's not unique. But they'll also bring stuff that herald doesn't, like barriers, quickness, alacrity, mass ressing etc.

More than any other, Herald is affected by his group size. In his optimal setting - which is 10 man group, he is viable, and accepted, but not meta or must-have. Needless to say things get much less pretty when it's a standard 5 man one.  This speaks volumes about need for rebalancing, and giving him something to start existing in non-raid sized groups.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

I call for buff for herald on a 5 man group scale. Because it is needed.

That doesn't mean i want everything buffed. 

Except it's not needed. If it was needed, people couldn't play Herald in 5 man group scale... but they can and are. Clearly you don't know what 'need' actually means.

 

So ... it does mean you just want buffs. Again, you are trying to justify what you want with things that aren't true. It's not true that the key to providing support is that it's provide something unique. That doesn't even make sense to say. What are literally saying here is that if Herald gets a quickness boon share, it won't be a key part of them being able to support because quickness boon share isn't actually unique. So it seems to me you don't understand the things you say or the reasons you provide to justify the suggestion to begin with, which is something that people with no good reasons for their ideas do. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

55 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except it's not needed. If it was needed, people couldn't play Herald in 5 man group scale... but they can and are. Clearly you don't know what 'need' actually means.

 

So ... it does mean you just want buffs. Again, you are trying to justify what you want with things that aren't true. It's not true that the key to providing support is that it's provide something unique. That doesn't even make sense to say. What are literally saying here is that if Herald gets a quickness boon share, it won't be a key part of them being able to support because it won't be unique. So it seems to me you don't understand the things you say or the reasons you provide to justify the suggestion to begin with.

Amazing how you nitpick smallest things yet ignore the elephant in the room which is Firebrand's absolute domination in realm of healing and support where there should be balance.

The average lfg for 5 man group is "dps, 1 hfb, 1 alac". Does this sound like a balanced state of game where each of 6 dedicated healers is welcomed  to take the healing spot, and any profession as long as it brings support build can fill in the support slot?

You know the answer to it well. Now choose - admit the truth or stay in your ivory tower claiming problem does not exist.
 

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Amazing how you nitpick smallest things ...

Hold on ... there is nothing nitpicking about pointing out the lack of consistency and truth in your justification to get Herald quickness boon share. If you don't think the reason to justify a buff is important, you are just wrong, especially if the provided reasons are clearly untrue.

 

The bottomline here is that FB's position as a meta for support has NOTHING to do with how Herald is designed and people's ability to play it, even as support class. The second you take your 'FB domination' axe to the grindstone, your justification for Herald changes losses all validity because being jealous of another classes toolset isn't a reason to buff some other class. 

 

Does this sound like a balanced state of game where ....

 

.... where everyone can play what they want and be successful? You bet it your kitten it does because in a game that's designed like THAT, what is meta is irrelevant to the people that play how they want. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[SeTect.5918]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The bottomline here is that FB's position as a meta for support has NOTHING to do with how Herald is designed and people's ability to play it, even as support class.

It has. People Always compare support classes with support, healing with healing, sustain with sustain and dps with dps.

Its part of keeping Balance. 

And it is not a secret that herald is one of the worst support and healing classes. Besides that renegade was meant to be the dps spec and not better in sustain, dps, support and healing. 

So obviously @ZeftheWicked.3076wants a buff for Herald.

 

This also has nothing to do with being Jealous because there is not only Herald that needs a buff. 

 

Like someone asks for a buff for a class because compared to other classes with the same role it is trash - and you just scream: You are just Jealous!!!

 

kitten pls

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

And there we have the crux if our issue. Seems we're talking two different things thinking we're on the same subject. We're not.
I don't care about "ability to play", which judging from your replies seems to be a personal level mindset thing.

I care about desirability in end game group content, which dictates if your favourite healer spec will wait for group 1h+ or get insta accepted and be done with whole  thing by that time.

Right now balance is clearly off, and Druids, Heralds, Tempests, are definitely on the bottom of the list when it comes to being desired in end game content 5 man groups.

But i will give you one thing Obtena. You're right. Herald does not need 5 man quickness. I've now much better idea.
Draconic Echoes change -  Facets now pulse their effects only to 5 party members, but in return their consume skills grant 2s aoe  alacrity each.

[Obtena.7952]

46 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

I care about desirability in end game group content

I get that ... and if your criteria for choosing a build is based on desirability, then you play what adheres to that criteria, just like any other player with whatever criteria they use. If you want a change to a class to be more desirable as a class, you aren't going to justify it by chasing meta because meta is not relevant to how the game is designed. It's simply a consequence of the current state of class skills and what is best for a given content. 

 

But, what you care about isn't relevant to how the game is designed. If you want to understand better, the latest patch notes drop LOTS of hints about how Anet thinks and why they make changes. There is where you start your education. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

50 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

It has. People Always compare support classes with support, healing with healing, sustain with sustain and dps with dps.

Its part of keeping Balance. 

 

That doesn't make sense ... what people compare and think doesn't seem relevant to how the game is designed and changed. Balance isn't 'kept' by players making these comparisons. Balance is kept by Anet making changes to the game to get the desired results in how they want to see people interact with it. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Obtena.7952