Stealth removed on missed attacks/reflects

[Zeesh.7286]

 

12 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, stealth is not linked to success or failure of attacks. Other than Dagger 5, no attack gives me stealth and outside of the reveal mechanic, nothing takes you out of stealth but it's duration. 

 

Again, if the suggestion here is to make stealth mode design more about what you do and what happens to you vs. the duration dictated by the skill that gives you stealth, this suggestion is far too thin to even breech the topic. If we want to talk about the things that happen that take you out of stealth, we ALSO need to talk about the things that happen that can put you in it. It doesn't make sense to have one mechanic to put you in it ... and many more mechanics that take you out. 

 

Basically, there has to be a balance of ways to access stealth that match the ways that apply revealed. If you have many more conditions on reveal than you have stealth ... well, that obviously becomes a balancing issue. If you have feather triggered effects that remove you from stealth, likewise we should have feather triggered conditions to put you in it. 

so what exactly is stealth used for if not ensuring success of your attacks? Is Backstab not linked to stealth? So a thief that has access to backstabs from stealth is not using stealth to attack? that backstab can be anything from 20% to 50% of a players total HP. 

 

So like you're saying it's completely okay for them to spam from stealth and miss and the only option we have is to LET them hit us for 20-50% of our HP + some poison so even our follow up heal is reduced and then we can counter them? So like when a thief goes stealth, I should just NOT dodge or evade or anything and sit and eat damage

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

 

so what exactly is stealth used for if not ensuring success of your attacks?

That's a REALLY ironic question coming from someone that wants to reveal on a miss. How does someone wanting to reveal on a miss not know other reasons to use stealth than to ensure successful attacks? That's just proof you just want to nerf stealth because you simply don't like it. That's not a reason to nerf anything. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zeesh.7286]

 

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a REALLY ironic question coming from someone that wants to reveal on a miss. If you have to ask me this question, then you can't really have a good reason to reveal on a miss. 

What's bizzarre is that you're unable to understand all the points being made and instead propose that we ADD ways to gain stealth.

 

okay sure. I'll bite. Let's add more ways to give stealth, but lets also give necros, eles and revenants stealth too since according to you it's such a balanced mechanic why should only thief get to enjoy spamming under it

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

 

What's bizzarre is that you're unable to understand all the points being made and instead propose that we ADD ways to gain stealth.

 

okay sure. I'll bite. Let's add more ways to give stealth, but lets also give necros, eles and revenants stealth too since according to you it's such a balanced mechanic why should only thief get to enjoy spamming under it

None of that makes sense. I do understand the points, I just think they aren't inline with how stealth works in this game. Maybe you think how Anet intends something to work is just irrelevant and frivolous ... I don't. 

 

Furthermore, nothing I said indicates other classes should be more accessible to stealth. Every post you make reveals your stealth hate motives. That's not a reason to change how stealth works. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zeesh.7286]

 

17 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a REALLY ironic question coming from someone that wants to reveal on a miss. How does someone wanting to reveal on a miss not know other reasons to use stealth than to ensure successful attacks? That's just proof you just want to nerf stealth because you simply don't like it. That's not a reason to nerf anything. 

 

okay so what exactly are the other reasons to use stealth and how exactly are the other reasons for stealth nerfed by my suggestion that stealth gets removed on missed/blocked ATTACKS. 

 

 

[Zeesh.7286]

I also love how you haven't answered whether it's fair that we have to get hit with damage from a thief to break their stealth and gain reveals. 

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

 

How exactly are the other reasons for stealth nerfed by my suggestion that stealth gets removed on missed/blocked ATTACKS. 

That has nothing to do with my objection to your suggestion. Stealth hate isn't a reason to change it, EVEN if your suggestion is reasonable. I've already explained why I think your suggestion is lacking as well, and you have indicated some recognition of that. Feel free to address the points I have made related to that if you want to debate with me. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

I also love how you haven't answered whether it's fair that we have to get hit with damage from a thief to break their stealth and gain reveals. 

Because it's not a relevant question. It's not about if it's 'fair' ... it's about if that is how Anet intended it to work. 

[Zeesh.7286]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That has nothing to do with my objection to your suggestion. 

???

this is what you wrote:

24 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a REALLY ironic question coming from someone that wants to reveal on a miss. How does someone wanting to reveal on a miss not know other reasons to use stealth than to ensure successful attacks? That's just proof you just want to nerf stealth because you simply don't like it. That's not a reason to nerf anything. 

 

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Because it's not a relevant question. It's not about if it's 'fair' ... it's about if that is how Anet intended it to work. 

Well fellas discussion closed. Anet is word of God and clearly they don't need feedback since what they intend and how the game works should be devoid of player based suggestions.  

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

???

this is what you wrote:

 

Yup I wrote that and it's still a very interesting question. You question the purpose for stealth for ANYTHING other than ensuring an attack ... then you suggest revealing on a miss, invalidating the only purpose you can think it has. Obviously you care none for the existence of stealth as a valid game mechanic if you are willing to hold such contrasting positions and can only think of that one single reason to use it. 

 

Put it this way, if the ONLY reason you can think of to use stealth is to ensure an attack, then you have to admit your suggestion is rather absurd right? The fact of the matter is that you DON'T like the idea that you are intended by game design to eat stealth attacks in all but very exceptional or lucky situations. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zeesh.7286]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup I wrote that and it's still a very interesting question. You question the purpose for stealth for ANYTHING other than ensuring an attack ... then you suggest revealing on a miss, invalidating the only purpose you can think it has. Obviously you care none for the existence of stealth as a valid game mechanic if you are willing to hold such contrasting positions and can only think of that one single reason to use it. 

 

Put it this way, if the ONLY reason you can think of to use stealth is to ensure an attack, then you have to admit your suggestion is rather absurd right?

 

 

Please reread all of this that you wrote and reread what I wrote:

21 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

 

 

okay so what exactly are the other reasons to use stealth and how exactly are the other reasons for stealth nerfed by my suggestion that stealth gets removed on missed/blocked ATTACKS. 

 

 

 

yet to understand what other mystical stealth uses are there that get nerfed when a thief in stealth gets revealed on MISSES attacks

 

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

yet to understand what other mystical stealth uses are there that get nerfed when a thief in stealth gets revealed on MISSES attacks

 

Whether there are other 'mystical' stealth uses that are nerfed or not based on your suggestion has nothing to do with my objection to the idea ... so your understanding of that is irrelevant in a discussion with me. 

 

If stealth is going to have stronger, passive mechanics linked to attacks, then it should be for BOTH entering and leaving it. That's not how stealth is currently designed and it's certainly not considered by your suggestion.  

Edited July 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[DoomNexus.5324]

I think stealth in general, across all classes that have access, should be tuned down and that's it. No kitten like making them translucent or whatever, doesn't make any sense in GW2 in my opinion. Or getting revealed for dodging and attack or blocking.. Imagine getting a random Aegis from a nearby Guardian and you suddenly get revealed just because you unintentionally block an aoe or whatever. Or you have to dodge through aoe soup on a point. Stealth would get so insanely unreliable that you could as well just remove it from the game all together (which I know most of you suggesting those changes would be perfectly happy as well).

 

Nup, I don't think these are good suggestions at all. Let's not try to make every class Warrior in a different color please.

Stealth may be annoying to play against but a stealthed player is neither invulnerable nor can it in any way avoid damage just because of stealth (except for not being able to be targeted by skills that require a target ofc).

[Zeesh.7286]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Whether there are other 'mystical' stealth uses that are nerfed or not based on your suggestion has nothing to do with my objection to the idea ... so your understanding of that is irrelevant in a discussion with me. 

 

If stealth is going to have stronger, passive mechanics linked to attacks, then it should be for BOTH entering and leaving it. That's not how stealth is currently designed and it's certainly not considered by your suggestion.  

another evasive reply. thanks.

 

The entire thread you have contributed no solid argument other than vague objections that this isn't how stealth is intended to work blah blah. We ask you how stealth is intended to work and your evasive replies are that's not a topic of discussion or vague posting about how if stealth attacks miss than we should give more stealth on attacks lol. You complain and when we post a rebuttal relevant or on tangent or exactly related to your comment, the argument it is suddenly out of scope of discussion? Okay then have a good day. 

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

another evasive reply. 

 

Nothing evasive about it. I've explained why I think you're suggestion is lacking (and CONTINUE to do so for YOUR benefit, not mine). You're response to that is to continue asking questions that are irrelevant to the explanation I've provided. Intended design is actually as solid an argument as you can get. On the other hand I hate stealth is as weak an argument as you can get. 

 

If you are going to suggest stealth has more passive mechanics linked to attacks, then you need to consider for BOTH entering and leaving it. That's a significant departure for the current stealth mechanic and your suggestion does not consider those things at all. It's all just a stealth hate justification. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

On 7/5/2021 at 6:46 PM, Zeesh.7286 said:

PLEASE make stealth reveal the player if they miss attacks or have their projectiles reflected/destroyed. Punish poor button mashing and attack spamming from stealth. 

The reason it does not work like that might be related to smoke field combo. You might very well break the mechanism with such change, which mean that thief who rely on stealth for many things might end up being broken.

[Zeesh.7286]

4 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The reason it does not work like that might be related to smoke field combo. You might very well break the mechanism with such change, which mean that thief who rely on stealth for many things might end up being broken.

I'm sure anet can fix their spaghetti code to make sure heartseekers out of smoke fields don't count as "missed" attacks when theif has no enemy selected. They can make it so that thief misses when they have any enemy selected as target is when they get revealed or something. 

[Zeesh.7286]

19 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing evasive about it. I've explained why I think you're suggestion is lacking. You're response to that is to continue asking questions that are irrelevant to the explanation I've provided. Intended design is actually as solid an argument as you can get. On the other hand I hate stealth is as weak an argument as you can get. 

 

If you are going to suggest stealth has more passive mechanics linked to attacks, then you need to consider for BOTH entering and leaving it. That's a significant departure for the current stealth mechanic and your suggestion does not consider those things at all. It's all just a stealth hate justification. 

Where have i said I hate stealth? Now you're putting words in my mouth. Intended design is a garbage argument in this game. If inteded designs were great I'm sure we wouldn't need ANY balance changes. Was mirage inteded to have 1 dodge??? It started with 2 dodges so why did they nerf it one?? hmm? Don't answer this is a rhetorical question about how intended design is prone to errors and can be changed at any point as companies get feedback.

 

anyway I'm done at least @Dadnir.5038 made a really good response that's true anet's sphagetti code might break on this suggestion but then that's a problem for anet and their code. I as a player can provide suggestions and feedback I can't fix their code

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

Where have i said I hate stealth? Now you're putting words in my mouth.

Yup, I am ... because your suggestion is a blatant request for a nerf for no reason other than hating stealth. Intended design isn't a garbage argument ever, because no suggestion has merit if you don't consider what Anet wants the game to work like. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

I'm sure anet can fix their spaghetti code to make sure heartseekers out of smoke fields don't count as "missed" attacks when theif has no enemy selected. They can make it so that thief misses when they have any enemy selected as target is when they get revealed or something. 

First, most of the devs that created the core of the game have left and even when there were some remaining, they were affraid of touching the core mechanism, fearing to simply break the game.

 

So no, I wouldn't expect anet to "fix their spaghetti code to make sure heartseeker out of smoke field don't count as a missed attack". Furthermore, leap finisher aren't the only finisher that end up giving stealth, blast finisher exist as well.

 

Many thing could go wrong like cleave and aoe no longer hiting more than a single target because the other aren't selected... etc.

 

Keep in mind that the game isn't as solid and flexible as you think and the current devs aren't as experienced with the game infrastructure than they could have been in 2013.

[bigo.9037]

On 7/13/2021 at 4:21 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

It's pretty simple ... stealth mode is not generally linked to success or failure of attacks and there isn't any logical reason it should be ... unless people are just pandering to stealth hate as they normally do. That's clearly not how it was designed. This is just another attempt to degrade the stealth mechanic. 

 

Put it this way ... if we are going to suggest making a design shift from stealth mode having a duration window of application to stealth mode being more dependent on success of attack, then the suggestion isn't broad enough to carry the discussion any further. Overlapping multiple conditions for stealth mode simply makes it more difficult to use (which I'm sure is your intent) as well as more difficult to balance. 

So you’re just gonna ignore the argument I reiterated for you? Ok. 
 

Sure We can go that route instead, but then I think we’d need to limit stealth application to 5s , afterwards a 5s reveal timer. You can argue that the problem isn’t stealth itself but rather SA thief which can continuously stack long durations of it long enough to ignore missed attempts and attacks and simply do them again.

I don’t have a problem with stealth itself other than the fact you’re not revealed after a blocked or evaded attack. It’s a nice mechanic. 
 

but it already has lots of balance problems because stealth can be difficult to quantify unlike boons and dmg output etc. 

[bigo.9037]

@Obtena.7952
Also imagine this: 

 

Instead of stealth, guardians have multiple ways of becoming invulnerable, however, while they are invulnerable, their attacks have 0 animations and you cannot tell what they are doing.

 

if the guardian hits his target, he loses the invulnerability state just like stealth. 
 

if he misses or gets blocked, he stays invulnerable, indefinitely. Is this fair? 
 

replace invulnerable with INVISIBLE, add the fact you can still be hit by aoe’s, and this is practically a completely fair comparison. If you can’t see that this is a VERY bad idea (that you stay invulnerable until you successfully hit a target), then I don’t know what to tell you. Have you ever played any other class??

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

So you’re just gonna ignore the argument I reiterated for you? Ok. 
 

Sure We can go that route instead, but then I think we’d need to limit stealth application to 5s , afterwards a 5s reveal timer. You can argue that the problem isn’t stealth itself but rather SA thief which can continuously stack long durations of it long enough to ignore missed attempts and attacks and simply do them again.

I don’t have a problem with stealth itself other than the fact you’re not revealed after a blocked or evaded attack. It’s a nice mechanic. 
 

but it already has lots of balance problems because stealth can be difficult to quantify unlike boons and dmg output etc. 

Yes, because my point has nothing to do with 'how little you lose by missing an attack while stealthed especially on thief'. I mean, that argument doesn't even make sense to me ... that thief 'loses' just as much as any other class that misses an attack and more, because that stealth duration timer is ticking down. Now you're supporting a suggestion where they completely lose their duration because of missing, etc? If that makes sense to you, there were is the opposing view of what should happen when they land an attack in stealth? or land an attack to obtain stealth? Oh right ... they are missing, because this is just a big stealth hate thread and doesn't really care about stealth as a mechanic in the game. 

 

My point is that if people are going to suggest additional reveal conditions for thieves, then that needs to also be BALANCED with additional stealth mechanics. I mean, there is no argument for rendering stealth a heavily restricted mode of play, ESPECAILLY for a thief who has to make significant allocation of skills to access stealth and traits to benefit from having it. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[bigo.9037]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes, because my point has nothing to do with 'how little you lose by missing an attack while stealthed especially on thief'. I mean, that argument doesn't even make sense to me ... that thief 'loses' just as much as any other class that misses an attack and more, because that stealth duration timer is ticking down. Now you're supporting a suggestion where they completely lose their duration because of missing, etc? If that makes sense to you, there were is the opposing view of what should happen when they land an attack in stealth? or land an attack to obtain stealth? Oh right ... they are missing, because this is just a big stealth hate thread and doesn't really care about stealth as a mechanic in the game. 

 

My point is that if people are going to suggest additional reveal conditions for thieves, then that needs to also be BALANCED with additional stealth mechanics. I mean, there is no argument for rendering stealth a heavily restricted mode of play, ESPECAILLY for a thief who has to make significant allocation of skills to access stealth and traits to benefit from having it. 

Shadow arts on DD or DE needs to be nerfed somehow. Stealth as a mechanic is OK on other classes or thief without SA.

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

Shadow arts on DD or DE needs to be nerfed somehow.

Maybe ... that is yet to be determined. I mean, you say it like a fact with no explanation or care for why the status quo exists. How do you think THAT conversation is going to go?

Edited July 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952