Optimal Boonripping Spreadsheet

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

29 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Except if you are using the skills as I had mentioned. In fact in nearly all cases a suboptimal usage is beneficial or even required in WvW. You will never wait for a maximum amount of targets to boon deny. You always make an on the spot cost benefit analysis in regards to effect now versus effect a bit later with potentially better payoff.

 

There is tremendous information to be had, especially when ideal or perfect scenarios are near non existant iun regular game play.

 

It's called theory versus reality.

The correct comparison would be if the healing skill in question also added other benefits and using the heal skill prematurely makes any sense at all. Because that is the case for boon denial skills and potential affected targets.

 

In which case the early usage of the heal skill in question might not provide healing, but potentially other beneficial effects which are of more value. For example: Mantra of Solace with Liberator's Vow in an engage scenario where chances are high no one affected will need the aegis yet, nor the healing, but the quickness will be very beneficial.

 

 

Other potential benefits to skills has nothing to do with the current analysis of boon stripping. This is same argument you made about boons being better then healing on that last thread.

 

For example Trail of Anguish provides stability and strips boons. One can argue that the cost benefit analysis here...is that by using Trail of Anguish before walking into a fight, is more beneficial because it gives you the stability to cast other skills. Stability has nothing to do with the analysis of boon stripping...stability has it's own analysis which you treat as a separate component when making a final decision.

 

When you walk into a fight pre-casting Trail of Anguish, you made the decision to sacrifice 160 boon strips, for stability uptime in the start of an engagement. Whether that cost-benefit analysis actually benefits you is not part of the analysis of boonstrips to other boonstrips. 

 

For example, in sacrificing 160 boonstrips by pre-casting Trail of Anguish, this may have given you the ability to successfully land Nightfall in the fight. 160 - 112 means you only lost 48 potential boonstrips instead of a potential 160. The cost benefit you made remains in the world of whether you land boonstrips or not for whatever skills you decide to choose (and is reflected in the efficacy percentage). In other scenario's...you may have been buffed with stability already, and thus wasting the precast of Trail of Anguish. The relevance of whether you had stability or not, is not a component of the analysis...and like previously stated there's a plethora of reasons for whether you can or can not use an ability. You use a separate analysis for stability uptime values...heal uptime values...damage uptime values, to weight the other decisions you make.

 

This is why when you use this analysis, you use it as an efficacy analysis using the same components (boonstripping). Otherwise you get circular arguments like yours...which are like "You should always use Trail of Anguish for the stability." A conclusion that is incompatible when you compare it to a boonstrip skill that DOESNT have stability like Feast of Corruption or Nightfall.

Edited July 7, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Cyninja.2954]

16 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Other potential benefits to skills has nothing to do with the current analysis of boon stripping. This is same argument you made about boons being better then healing on that last thread.

That's because I don't look at singular aspects of skills and overestimate the value this look might provide. Context of the skills matter and while looking at singular elements is an interesting exercise on its own, it is near useless when not put in context of the game.

 

Which is exactly what I said about this list in my first comment.

 

Quote

This is why when you use this analysis, you use it as an efficacy analysis using the same components (boonstripping).

 

and this efficacy analysis is only of value IF put into context of when boon denial is the only deciding factor of when to use/bring the skill.

 

Quote

Otherwise you get circular arguments like yours...which are like "You should always use Trail of Anguish for the stability." A conclusion that is incompatible when you compare it to a boonstrip skill that DOESNT have stability like Feast of Corruption or Nightfall.

 

I never made that circular argument, you are just oversimplifying what I said. I'll summarize what you said here in combination with the part I removed for visual clarity:

 

Looking at boon denial potentials can help a player decide on which boon denial skill will yield the highest performance when omitting all and every other aspect of a fight (edit: or build limitation).

 

To which I already said:

1. there are very few actually interchangeable skills in the first place

2. other factors are far more important in regards to skills/weapons brought

3. the burst nature of engages and importance of boon denial makes any theory about longterm rotations meaningless

 

and as such the spreadsheet is far more a nice theoretical gimmick and less applicable to the actual game.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

18 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

never made that circular argument, you are just oversimplifying what I said. I'll summarize what you said here in combination with the part I removed for visual clarity: 

 

Looking at boon denial potentials can help a player decide on which boon denial skill will yield the highest performance when omitting all and every other aspect of a fight.

 

So let me get this straight...you say I oversimplified what you said and you counter this by oversimplifying what I said?

 

You are just misunderstanding the way you are supposed to use the analysis...it's not that complicated. Nightfall provides Blinding...Feast of Corruption does damage, Trail of Anguish provides stability...The list goes on and on for the differences between skills. Those differences all require derivation of their own independent analysis in order to talk about them in a meaningful way. This is why the analysis is only about BOONSTRIPPING and nothing else.

 

For example...You have skill A does 1000 damage and 2000 healing every 10 seconds or something. There is no singular analysis you can apply to this skill in order to determine whether it's better than skill B which does 3000 damage and 1000 healing every 5 seconds. 

 

The only way to analyze the skill above is in components of either damage to damage or healing to healing. By separating the components, you then take both analysis you made into account when making a decision....and this applies for an arbitrarily large number of possible differing components.. This also happens to be the reason why you can compress down two or more components that seem different into the same component...like protection and healing. Both can be broken down to the same component for analysis...the particular analysis being healing to healing. You can continue that process for any number of arbitrary components so long as you maintain the same relation between them. Another example of this is that Blind can be though of as a preventative healing skill...like Aegis...therefor you can treat Blinds as you would Healing in a Healing to Healing analysis.

 

Stability and Boonstripping are too estranged and there is no practical way to relate the two in the same analysis...therefor you treat them separately, and when you make a decision you weight that decision based on the two independent analysis. Likewise, damage and healing are also too estranged to make a singular model of them together.

 

You can think of how the two are related...where doing damage to someone, prevents them from doing damage to you...which is a form of preventative healing (colloquially known as counter pressure)...but it's not something you can put into a single model together, because it's far too complicated to do. The conclusion isn't that you exclude such a relation from existence...you just treat them as two distinctly different analysis, and you weigh both analysis when you make a decision. This isn't hard to understand here. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Cyninja.2954]

22 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

So let me get this straight...you say I oversimplified what you said and you counter this by oversimplifying what I said?

 

You are just misunderstanding the way you are supposed to use the analysis...it's not that complicated. Nightfall provides Blinding...Feast of Corruption does damage, Trail of Anguish provides stability...The list goes on and on for the differences between skills. Those differences all require derivation of their own independent analysis in order to talk about them in a meaningful way. This is why the analysis is only about BOONSTRIPPING and nothing else.

 

For example...You have skill A does 1000 damage and 2000 healing every 10 seconds or something. There is no singular analysis you can apply to this skill in order to determine whether it's better than skill B which does 3000 damage and 1000 healing every 5 seconds. 

You are assuming that there is value in determining which skill is better based only on its boonstripping potential. I'm saying: there isn't. It's that simple.

 

Quote

 

The only way to analyze the skill above is in components of either damage to damage or healing to healing. By separating the components, you then take both analysis you made into account when making a decision....and this applies for an arbitrarily large number of possible differing components.. This also happens to be the reason why you can compress down two or more components that seem different into the same component...like protection and healing. Both can be broken down to the same component for analysis...the particular analysis being healing to healing. You can continue that process for any number of arbitrary components so long as you maintain the same relation between them. Another example of this is that Blind can be though of as a preventative healing skill...like Aegis...therefor you can treat Blinds as you would Healing in a Healing to Healing analysis.

Exactly, and most factors of which and when a skill is more useful are unrelated to its boonstripping potential.

Quote

 

Stability and Boonstripping are too estranged and there is no practical way to relate the two in the same analysis...therefor you treat them separately, and when you make a decision you weight that decision based on the two independent analysis. Likewise, damage and healing are also too estranged to make a singular model of them together.

You can treat them as separately as you want, if the primary use for the skill is the stability, any analysis for its boonstripping potential is near meaningless. That's what I am saying.

Quote

 

You can think of how the two are related...where doing damage to someone, prevents them from doing damage to you...which is a form of preventative healing (colloquially known as counter pressure)...but it's not something you can put into a single model together, because it's far too complicated to do. The conclusion isn't that you exclude such a relation from existence...you just treat them as two distinctly different analysis, and you weigh both analysis when you make a decision. This isn't hard to understand here.

 

I never misunderstood. I never said this can be put into a single model, because it can not.

 

I tried to clearly explain that in this context, and in past context of other discussion and knowledge you have brought forth, I have questioned it's value outside of a nice thought experiment.

 

In short: simply looking at boonstrips on their own brings nearly NO value or valuable information in the current state of the game. That has to do with how the value of a skill is determined and yes, I am saying that boonstrip potential is near insignificant in that regard currently for most skills.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You can treat them as separately as you want, if the primary use for the skill is the stability, any analysis for its boonstripping potential is near meaningless. That's what I am saying

 

Like i said...this is not the way you are supposed to draw conclusions from the analysis...like at all. Such a statement shows why your counter arguments never make any sense.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear on my example above. Spamming a healing skill off cooldown, will never kill or defeat an opponent...while damaging an opponent can both be a form of healing in the form of preventative healing and damage. This is why the two can never truly be united in a single analysis...so a skill that provides both of them can only be talked about in terms of how much they do in an analysis of damage to damage, and for how much they do in an analysis of healing to healing.

Edited July 7, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Cyninja.2954]

24 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Like i said...this is not the way you are supposed to draw conclusions from the analysis...like at all. Such a statement shows why your counter arguments never make any sense.

To you. My counter arguments do not make sense to you.

 

24 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Maybe I wasn't clear on my example above. Spamming a healing skill off cooldown, will never kill or defeat an opponent...while damaging an opponent can both be a form of healing in the form of preventative healing and damage. This is why the two can never truly be united in a single analysis...so a skill that provides both of them can only be talked about in terms of how much they do in an analysis of damage to damage, and for how much they do in an analysis of healing to healing.

Your analogy or comparison is lacking, again.

 

No, both skills can't be compared with 1 analysis. That is not the issue at hand though. There are meaningful things which can be analyzed, and less meaningful things. The context of why the healing or damage skill sees use determines of how much value looking at the individual aspects is.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Cyninja.2954

 

Let me give another example maybe you'll understand the analysis and how to use it when applying it to a hard decision problem : 

 

Let's say we made a stability analysis of the game. "Which skills provide the most stability for the longest period of time..." or whatever...something like that....and Trail of Anguish would take it's place somewhere in that list. For the sake of the argument since nobody here has actually done a stability uptime analysis, let's just say that Reaper 3 gives more stability per unit of time in this list.

 

Now you are presented with a situation; to use either Reaper 3, Trail of Anguish or Feast of Corruption. You now need to make a decision about which skill to use next. You have 2 analysis that you've made previously to pick from here...one is the current best skill to use for stability, the other is the current best skill to use for boon-striping. So now you have two lists (called priorities) that you generate in your head :

 

Best Stability Uptime List :

Reaper Shroud 3

Trail of Anguish

Feast of Corruption

 

Best Boonstrip Uptime list:

Trail of Anguish

Feast of Corruption

Reaper Shroud 3

 

I'm curious to know what your answer would be...but I'm going to cut this short and present you with the most obvious best answer...the answer is that you would choose Trail of Anguish. Why? Because it is the best decision you can make out of both lists. Reaper Shroud 3 doesn't give you boon strip, and Feast of Corruption doesn't give you stability...therefor, the best choice is the one that provides both.

 

Do you see now how you are supposed to use these kinds of analysis? You have a bunch of lists, and you are picking the best decision out of all the analysis you've ever made....You got a damage list, a healing list, a boonstrip list, a condi cleanse list., whatever whatever list...And then based on what your build does and can do, you are creating priority rotations based on the cumulative information these lists give you.

Edited July 7, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Cyninja.2954

 

Let me give another example maybe you'll understand the analysis and how to use it when applying it to a hard decision problem : 

 

Let's say we made a stability analysis of the game. "Which skills provide the most stability for the longest period of time..." or whatever...something like that....and Trail of Anguish would take it's place somewhere in that list. For the sake of the argument since nobody here has actually done a stability uptime analysis, let's just say that Reaper 3 gives more stability per unit of time in this list.

 

Now you are presented with a situation; to use either Reaper 3, Trail of Anguish or Feast of Corruption. You now need to make a decision about which skill to use next. You have 2 analysis that you've made previously to pick from here...one is the current best skill to use for stability, the other is the current best skill to use for boon-striping. So now you have two lists (called priorities) that you generate in your head :

 

Best Stability Uptime List :

Reaper Shroud 3

Trail of Anguish

Feast of Corruption

 

Best Boonstrip Uptime list:

Trail of Anguish

Feast of Corruption

Reaper Shroud 3

 

I'm curious to know what your answer would be...but I'm going to cut this short and present you with the most obvious best answer...the answer is that you would choose Trail of Anguish. Why? Because it is the best decision you can make out of both lists. Reaper Shroud 3 doesn't give you boon strip, and Feast of Corruption doesn't give you stability...therefor, the best choice is the one that provides both.

 

Do you see now how you are supposed to use these kinds of analysis? You have a bunch of lists, and you are picking the best decision out of all the analysis you've ever made.

Thanks for proving my point. So in the context of which skill provides the PRIMARY performance desired, you look at that and draw a conclusion.

 

Now apply this simple reasoning to this statement: boon denial is almost NEVER the primary concern as to which skill to use. In short: the comparison of boon denial between skills is not important.

 

As to the reasoning behind Trail of Anguish, the fact it breaks stuns would be of far more significant impact on any decision of when to use the skill. In fact if I wanted ONLY stability, I'd definitely NOT go for ToA first.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Thanks for proving my point. So in the context of which skill provides the PRIMARY performance desired, you look at that and draw a conclusion.

 

Now apply this simple reasoning to this statement: boon denial is almost NEVER the primary concern as to which skill to use. In short: the comparison of boon denial between skills is not important.

 

No dude this is not your point...you are distorting the analysis to fit some strange agenda that boon strips aren't an important part of the game or something? wtf?

 

You said in the healing thread that boons are more important then healing...but oh boonstrips (you know the mechanic that counters boons) aren't important at all now? Make up your mind.

Edited July 7, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

No dude this is not your point...you are distorting the analysis to fit some strange agenda that boon strips aren't an important part of the game or something? wtf?

 

You said in the healing thread that boons are more important then healing...but oh boonstrips aren't important now? Make up your mind.

 

No, I am saying that BOON DENIAL is not that important. The reason for this can be due to many reasons:

1. boon denial comes in bursts. Consistent boon denial is not needed at the expense of everything else

2. there is a limit of potential boons on a target, as such boon denial beyond this is meaningless.

3. boon are important, it is NOT important to keep boons on targets at 0

 

Notice how none of those points are conflicting with anything I have said. It is not even conflicting with the fact that boons are more important than healing.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

10 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

No, I am saying that BOON DENIAL is not that important. The reason for this can be due to many reasons:

1. boon denial comes in bursts. Consistent boon denial is not needed at the expense of everything else

2. there is a limit of potential boons on a target, as such boon denial beyond this is meaningless.

3. boon are important, it is NOT important to keep boons on targets at 0

 

Notice how none of those points are conflicting with anything I have said. It is not even conflicting with the fact that boons are more important than healing.

 

All of this is pretty subjective and non-analytical.

1. Boon denial doesn't "only" come in bursts....Maybe in your strange world they do, but there's this thing called "pressure" where you simply outvalue someone by having consistent, more valuable plays then the opponent.

 

2. The limit of boons on a target has really nothing to do with this. The more boons the target pops out, the more boons there are to strip. The less boons the target pops out, the less boons there are to strip...and the efficacy will reflect this difference. The question is whether you are prepared for a fight in which the enemy output more boons then you can strip. The enemy will simply out-boon you and they gain a mathematical advantage over you...because you decided to prioritize skills in a way that provides very little value over skills that provide a lot more.

 

3.  This point i don't really get...you said "boons are important...denying them isn't important" lol okay man. No consistency in this statement at all. Like said in point 1, starving your opponent of boons is a form of pressure and you gain a mathematical advantage over the opponent by doing so.

 

Anyway, you can argue the math all you want, but you can simply take this information into the field and you will top your strips meter...again because you will have a mathematically favorable advantage over others that do not. Rest assured, when I'm freely available, I will gladly demonstrate the above in action with some images. I've done the same exact analysis on condition cleansing before, with results as predicted...and I will do the same again with boon-stripping.

Edited July 7, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Cyninja.2954]

17 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

All of this is pretty subjective and non-analytical.

1. Boon denial doesn't "only" come in bursts....Maybe in your strange world they do, but there's this thing called "pressure" where you simply outvalue someone by having consistent, more valuable plays then the opponent.

 

True, but for the majority of WvW engagements, it does. For most other fights like small scale or smaller group roaming, the significance of utility beyond boon denial is again a huge factor. Unless fighting very solo boon heavy builds.

Quote

 

2. The limit of boons on a target has really nothing to do with this. The more boons the target pops out, the more boons there are to strip. The less boons the target pops out, the less boons there are to strip...and the efficacy will reflect this difference. The question is whether you are prepared for a fight in which the enemy output more boons then you can strip. The enemy will simply out-boon you and they gain a mathematical advantage over you...because you decided to prioritize skills in a way that provides very little value over skills that provide a lot more.

 

The maximum amount of boons per target is of ABSOLUTE significance. If there is at most 6 boons on a target, you can only strip 6 boons while your bomb lands. If there is a cap of possible 12 boons, the same applies. Now if boon removal was so low as to warrant multiple characters landing it to be required then this might be more of an issue. Alas that is not the case. (in short: even less optimal boon denial skills with less boon denial potential will get the job done).

 

Quote

 

3.  This point i don't really get...you said "boons are important...denying them isn't important" lol okay man. No consistency in this statement at all. Like said in point 1, starving your opponent of boons is a form of pressure and you gain a mathematical advantage over the opponent by doing so.

 

Apples to oranges literally.

Or you really do not understand the difference between maintaining boons versus stripping them at given intervals.

 

Or even easier put: the difference between how defensive and offensive boons impact a fight tells you everything you need to know about why one has little to do with the other. Maintaining boons is beneficial and of constant value, permanent denial of boons is not to the same extent.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[God.2708]

Somewhat irrelevant but: I believe trail of anguish has an unlisted target cap of 50. I do not have any hard evidence for this, but I remember exploring it a while back and going back to videos and seeing it stop proc numbers while still on the ground with a map queue running over it. I've also never seen it 'hit' more than 50 times in arcdps per use regardless of the swarm that it looked like it hit.

It can also hit a target every 3 seconds. It appears being struck by it puts an invisible ICD on an enemy, and after being hit by one, they can't be hit by trail of anguish for 3s, but after that they can run over the same trail and be hit again. This also prevents multiple trails from stripping an entire zerg, but I can't be certain of said mechanications that's just what I gathered from a brief guild hall test and having a couple of people dance over it.

You also used the PvE CD for it (and possibly others, didn't check that hard).

Edit: I Think a more useful application of this is determining how many boonstrips you can stack in as short of time as possible. In general you aren't just using boon strips to boon strip, you coordinate them. Knowing NCSY being cast then going into shroud with spiteful spirit and weakening shroud will strip 4 boons in < .5s seems more useful than knowing being able to use reaper shroud 2 on CD will strip a lot.

Edited July 7, 2021 by God.2708

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

46 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

Somewhat irrelevant but: I believe trail of anguish has an unlisted target cap of 50. I do not have any hard evidence for this, but I remember exploring it a while back and going back to videos and seeing it stop proc numbers while still on the ground with a map queue running over it. I've also never seen it 'hit' more than 50 times in arcdps per use regardless of the swarm that it looked like it hit.

It can also hit a target every 3 seconds. It appears being struck by it puts an invisible ICD on an enemy, and after being hit by one, they can't be hit by trail of anguish for 3s, but after that they can run over the same trail and be hit again. This also prevents multiple trails from stripping an entire zerg, but I can't be certain of said mechanications that's just what I gathered from a brief guild hall test and having a couple of people dance over it.

 

Ya i noted the the icd earlier in the chat. It definitely has some ICD per target where you can only hit it twice every use. I don't know if it has some unlisted target cap, but the math is 80 (targets) x2 times =160 potential strips per use. With a 50 target cap, then ya it would be 50--100...100 being if a 50 man runs over your road twice. For now I'm going to leave it at 80 (potentially infinite) until someone can confirm it. 

 

Quote

Edit: I Think a more useful application of this is determining how many boonstrips you can stack in as short of time as possible. In general you aren't just using boon strips to boon strip, you coordinate them. Knowing NCSY being cast then going into shroud with spiteful spirit and weakening shroud will strip 4 boons in < .5s seems more useful than knowing being able to use reaper shroud 2 on CD will strip a lot.

 

There's  a lot of useful information you can take from this kind of analysis, and there are many kinds of different analysis you can make based on the question. Someone in a previous thread asked the same thing, if there is a way to make an analysis of burst sequences, and I noted that there is...but this analysis in this thread in particular doesn't cover it explicitly.

 

If you are keen on the math here, you'll notice that, the most efficient burst sequence happens to be, using all of the skills you have available to you at the same time on cooldown. This is fundamentally what a potential is ... a perfect being that uses all their skills on cooldown, and is successful at landing those skills with maximal value every time.

 

In other words...a 3 minute long engagement is a 3 minute burst sequence...where for lack of a better word to describe it... the "best" burst sequence is the skills that have the highest values in this table...so it's rather implicit but the relationship between bursting and consistent value of skills is there. That's easy to see when you think about burst phases and pressure phases in fights, as really being a transformation between high damage/short time frame vs a high damage/ long time frame

 

But a more explicit and practical version of a burst sequence analysis on strips at least would be, "how many strips can you potentially do in the shortest time possible?" So if your burst sequence can potentially strip 200 boons in 5 seconds using skill X Y Z then you might be able to compare that to a sequence that strips 150 boons in 3 seconds using skill A B X... and these calculations would be relegated to cast-times rather than cooldown times, and the problem is less multiplication and more addition...you just add up the values and you add up the cast times, and boom there you have an explicit burst sequence. 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

This convo kinda reminds me how snowcrows benchmarks don't match actual performance in game, the analysis is too simplified because it assumes the enemy stands there and does nothing but constantly generate boons.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@God.2708

 

To explain the above just a bit more precisely :

 

You use the same table as in the original post. The only thing you change is the length of the engagement, to some acceptable time frame like 3 seconds. Since all cooldowns are going to essentially be 1, then you can replace the cooldown column with cast-time, which is essentially a de-facto cooldown. Then just like the list, you can add up skills together with their cast times and you can determine a sequence that you can consider to be a burst sequence as we traditionally know it.

 

For example, let's say we shorten our engagement length to 3 seconds. We now want to compile the most amount of skills with the highest values that will give us the most amount of boon-strips in that time frame. 

 

It requires some recalculations in the table to account for durations of skills, but basically we can take all the instant cast skills and give them values in accordance with the new engagement length which would be;

 

Spiteful Spirit - 12 

Weakening Shroud - 5

Trail of Anguish - 80

Harbinger Shroud - 24

Nefarious Favor - 12

 

Then you can list all the other skills with their cast times, and then it just becomes a game of jigsaw puzzle...how to fit the most pieces into a 3 second time frame.

 

Ghastly Breech - 10 (3/4s casttime)

Well of Corruption - 15 (1/4s casttime)

Unholy Feast - 5 (1s casttime)

Dessicate - 5 (3/4s casttime)

 

 

The potential for such a sequence means you'd be boonstripping 12+5+80+24+12+10+15+5+5 for 168 boonstrips in 3 seconds.

 

Now To pull off such a sequence means you'd have to cast Harbinger Shroud, which assumes you already have 3 shades available (and will also proc Spiteful Spirit, Weakening Shroud at the same time) -> Nefarious Favor-> Trail of Anguish -> Well of Corruption-> Ghastly Breech->Unholy Feast-> Desiccate in that order...

 

Anyone that doesn't believe me, go head and try it for yourself. Cheers.

Edit: Made some fixes! Also tried it myself just now not the easiest burst sequence to pull off but it's doable if you got a lot of buttons available to keybind.

Edited July 8, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@God.2708

 

Another Burst sequence, this time for Reaper :

 

Spiteful Spirit - 12 

Weakening Shroud - 5

 

Like before...jigsaw puzzle :

 

Nightfall - 10 - (1/2s casttime)

Nothing Can Save You! - 10 (1/2 casttime)

Well of Corruption - 15 (1/4s casttime)

Unholy Feast - 5 (1s casttime)

Death's Charge - 10 (1 1/4 Casttime)

 

12 +5 + 40 + 10 + 15 + 5 +10 = a potential of 67 boons stripped in 3 seconds.

 

To pull off such a sequence means you'd have to cast Nightfall -> Well of Corruption -> Nothing Can Save You! -> Unholy Feast > Death's Charge (Where Death's Charge will proc Spiteful Spirit, Weakening Shroud at the same time) in that order.

 

In summary, This is pretty much the highest potential boonstrip bursts you are ever going to be able to do. Any other assortment of skills will either take longer than 3 seconds, or won't ever be higher than 67 boons.

Edited July 8, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[RisenHowl.2419]

i encourage you to apply theory to real situations, then log the results so you have real data to work with. Find a single log where you're getting 80 strips with 1 trail of anguish or a 3 shade harbinger shroud hit, that I'd love to see.

 

some other erroneous nonsense:

-you open with well of corruption because it has the longest range, you don't open with nightfall because it's melee only

-nightfall corrupts 1 boon per pulse, so 5 boons total every 2s

-superspeed lasts 10s and is up well over 50% of the time- meaning the value of your stationary aoes is decreased while the value of your 'up front' aoes is increased. you may want to include quickness in your calculations too, since that's 100% uptime unless you don't have a comp.

-you assume in every scenario that the enemy players have boons left to strip. when you have multiple people stripping boons that assumption is false- again, real scenarios vs theory

-you assume that 5 people will stand in place for every skill you cast, never dodging/blocking/becoming invuln

-trail of anguish has an icd. you use it as a stun break, preferably while engaged in melee, because it applies stability to allies that walk over it. if you, or your allies, go down you are no longer stripping/healing/booning/etc

-as has already been linked:

--https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon#Skills_that_remove_boons

--https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Skills_that_convert_boons_into_conditions

-read the wiki

 

you've forgotten signet of the locust+signets of suffering too, staying in shroud for 14s allows it to recharge fully so it stays on the same cd as NCSY. this allows you to rotate well of corruption>NCSY>signet>axe3>shroud (spiteful spirit and weakening shroud)>shroud21112111 spam for 14s>NCSY>signet>axe3>nightfall. the reason people don't run this is because it gimps your damage and it's usually overkill. i'm pretty good on reaper, but i can't tell you how many times i've died from death's charge taking off in a random direction due to server lag

 

kind of a moot point all in all though, since the only boon that's really important is stability. removing stab is what wins fights

Edited July 8, 2021 by RisenHowl.2419

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

8 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

you've forgotten signet of the locust+signets of suffering too, staying in shroud for 14s allows it to recharge fully so it stays on the same cd as NCSY. this allows you to rotate well of corruption>NCSY>signet>axe3>shroud (spiteful spirit and weakening shroud)>shroud21112111 spam for 14s>NCSY>signet>axe3>nightfall. the reason people don't run this is because it gimps your damage and it's usually overkill. i'm pretty good on reaper, but i can't tell you how many times i've died from death's charge taking off in a random direction due to server lag

 

kind of a moot point all in all though, since the only boon that's really important is stability. removing stab is what wins fights

 

The fastest 3 second boon-strip burst, is one where Nightfall comes first. Whether you can pull that off in a fight is up to you and the fight that you are in. Your burst is one that is not 3 seconds...which is the point of the above exercise...which is whether you can concoct 3 second burst scenario's.

 

Now your burst scenario...probably 7 or 10 seconds long idk...but its not a 3 second burst and doesn't follow the exercise....but whatever

 

Ahem anyway... My posts above to God, is just an example of how one can put together a burst sequence based purely on the information of the post. Your kind of nitpicking the example...because that's all it is...an example made from pure information...I'm just showing the power of that information, and when you take that info into the field...you make your decisions on how to use skills based on other sets of information...like distance to the zerg...etc.

 

About Signet of Locust... it isn't on the wiki on those pages either, I noted to myself yesterday that I didn't have it, again it's missing like many other skills... on the wiki pages, because it's not a boon that converts boons into conditions...nor is it listed on the boon page...so where is it? I have no idea it's somewhere's I'm sure...but the wiki people have their own way of sorting that information...maybe you yourself should ACTUALLY try to look at the wiki, instead of just TELLING people to look at the wiki....You will find that Signet isn't listed on either of those pages. 

 

Lastly... math is, and has always been on my side. Like stated before, I can prove you wrong with in field testing as I normally issue with these kinds of posts...with images that will show you strip meters that will probably blow your mind...and just like I did with condition cleanse...healing... I will do the same thing with strips. You know what people always say when I show them my meters? They say "Ohh I think your squad are just bad." Guaranteed this is the response I always get and at this point it's just so funny to me how people simply deny the mathematical truths of the world....and on top of it those "bad players" are usually OG GvG veterans.

 

So that's the question really...is are you nervous because I'm not...not one bit. I am like one of those people who falls backwards at those enlightenment camps and they have to trust the person behind them will catch them...I have 0 fear taking the information here into to the field, because I know it will yield to me.

Edited July 8, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

8 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

this allows you to rotate well of corruption>NCSY>signet>axe3>shroud (spiteful spirit and weakening shroud)>shroud21112111 spam for 14s>NCSY>signet>axe3>nightfall.

 

Tried your burst sequence... like I expected it's a little messy and takes a lot longer than 3 seconds (and also it just doesn't follow the exercise but whatever.)

 

Firstly...lets take this burst sequence stopping at shroud 2.

 

Well of Corruption (1/4s) - 15
Nothing Can Save You! (1/2s) - 10
Signet of Locust (3/4s) - 10
Unholy Feast (1s) - 5

Spiteful Spirit - 10
Weakening Shroud - 5

Reaper 2 - (1 1/2s) - 10

 

4 second burst : 15 + 10 + 10 + 5 + 10 + 5 + 10... maximal potential 65 Boon strips

 

So this initial burst is 4 seconds long, and can output a maximum potential of 65 boons... It's not far off from mine...just not as fast.

 

Now your burst sequence continues anyway which completely bypasses the point of the exercise...whatever. You use shroud 2->1 for 14s, and then you use the burst without Well of Corruption because it's still on cooldown, and proceed to use NCSY, Signet axe and Nightfall before reentering shroud... a proxy 2nd burst.

 

Nothing Can Save You! (1/2s) - 10
Signet of Locust (3/4s) - 10
Unholy Feast (1s) - 5

Nightfall - (1/2) - 5

 

Spiteful Spirit - 10
Weakening Shroud - 5

Reaper 2 - (1 1/2s) - 10

 

4.25 second burst: 10+10+5+5+10+5+10 is a maximal potential of 55 boons stripped.

 

By placing Nightfall first, you would have had...a little bit more extra boons stripped (at the beginning of the burst sequence, you would have been able to use it twice as well basically for 40 extra boonrips.)

 

I think what your post is actually trying to describe here though and argue for in general is that this isn't a burst sequence but the "opening sequence" ... the sequence of skills you open an engagement with, which then falls into a pressure rotation... which then goes into a burst rotation...and then back into an opening sequence and so on...

 

So ill just mention this again...you kind of just skipped the exercise (finding a 3 second burst) and you just do whatever you wanted to do....so i mean okay...how to even address someone who's not even trying to satisfy the constraints of the question...idk. Another observation, is that both sequences are basically the same as what the information in the table describes with the exception for where Nightfall is in the sequence...I created my sequence strictly based on the information in the table, which at the time, using incomplete information (No signet of locust, and a Nightfall with incorrect values)...so I would say that the table is pretty accurate in terms of actually describing real world...so long as the information of the table is accurate...the information will reflect the real world.

 

TLDR all you really did in your post was add Signet of Locust and take away nightfall and that's basically all you changed about the burst sequence.

 

 

Quote

-nightfall corrupts 1 boon per pulse, so 5 boons total every 2s

Gonna make this adjustment to Nightfall cause you're right about this here. Naturally this puts it inline with other skills. Also added Signet of Locust to the spreadsheet.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@RisenHowl.2419

 

Okay i figured out why your burst is so messy. The order is supposed to be like this :

 

Nightfall->Well of Corruption->Axe 3-> Signet of the Locust-> Nothing Can Save You -> Shroud 2. It has to be in this order, otherwise Signet of Locust and NCSY don't come out of shroud with the same cooldown. Also something that makes it messy, is that 2-1-1-1-2-1-1-1 is not enough time in shroud.

 

In real world combat, since you like to talk about the real world right...the cooldown of Signet of Locust is highly variable so it's hard to establish a rotation with it. If your rotation is dependent on it being so tightly used, you're not gonna get the value you want from this rotation...in fact it will probably crumble apart and you'll lose a lot of value over time...whether thats from dropping shroud too early and not getting value from Shroud 2...or from leaving shroud too late and letting your other skills get ignored. This is actually the problem with rotations in general...and why priority rotations are just better. Rotations are the equivalent to simulated combat...most of the time...rotations are too idealized. The only thing that really works without breaking down is a priority...which are very easy to actually apply in combat.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[RisenHowl.2419]

54 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@RisenHowl.2419

 

Okay i figured out why your burst is so messy. The order is supposed to be like this :

 

Nightfall->Well of Corruption->Axe 3-> Signet of the Locust-> Nothing Can Save You -> Shroud 2. It has to be in this order, otherwise Signet of Locust and NCSY don't come out of shroud with the same cooldown. 

 

In real world combat, since you like to talk about the real world right...the cooldown of Signet of Locust is highly variable so it's hard to establish a rotation with it. If your rotation is dependent on it being so tightly used, you're not gonna get the value you want from this rotation...in fact it will probably crumble apart and you'll lose a lot of value over time. This is actually the problem with rotations in general...and why priority rotations are just better. Rotations are the equivalent to simulated combat...most of the time...rotations simply do not work. The only thing that really works without breaking down is a priority.

 

 

I'm going to ignore the other posts since you were still going off nightfall corrupting 4 boons per target per pulse, which is hilariously wrong- the wiki page for nightfall states it's 1/t/p and it's not like it's hard to test in game.

 

you open well of corruption because it has 900 range. you then use NCSY because it makes your signet and axe 3 unblockable (5 unblockable charges will be wasted on a well of corruption tick). NCSY/signet/axe3 have 600 range, which is why they're used after well of corruption as you move in closer. as you move into melee range, you pop shroud to land spiteful+weakening. 3 rotations of 2.111.111 is ~14s long, then you leave shroud for NCSY/signet/axe3/nightfall. This gives you constant bursts of boon strip that aren't reliant on pulsing aoes. This is an example of a priority rotation since the highest stripping skills are the ones you land the most frequently (well-30, NCSY-10, signet-10, axe-5, RS2-10)

 

the reason the rotation feels messy is because you're aren't as competent on necro as you think you are, a common trend in every thread you make or reply to.

 

edit:

maybe this will help?

Edited July 8, 2021 by RisenHowl.2419

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i think supplying the reader with theoretical maximums and minimums is enough, the reader can use their own brain to find a middle ground. just get the numbers right.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

i think supplying the reader with theoretical maximums and minimums is enough, the reader can use their own brain to find a middle ground. just get the numbers right.

 

Right exactly...thank you...that's all this post is supposed to be....information for the user and they can confirm it by doing the math for themselves. So long as the numbers are correct that is all that matters... but people take it personal... idk why, and then people use all kinds of ridiculous ways to attack the information as if it's some kind of magic sorcery...

 

Frankly I don't care what Risen's burst sequence is. he can play the game however he wants to play it even...so I don't see the resistance to information...it's just silly.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

 

2 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

edit:

maybe this will help?

 

 

I'm not here to judge your gameplay... All I care about is the strips. It's kind of obvious which things contribute the most to your strips...Like in the first fight you can actually count how many strips occur from every skill you pressed.

 

at 0:00 you start with 40 strips from past combat log.

 

Your first skill that you prioritized here is your Shroud 2. I don't think you have a curses build here so it doesn't remove any boons.

 

2nd skill you used was Devouring Darkness. This ripped 4 boons.

3rd skill you used was signet of suffering, which ripped 6 boons.

 

at 0:05 you have 10 boons ripped so far, which puts you at 50 in the log there.

 

Then your 4th skill is Unholy Feast. This rips 4 boons.

5th skill you use is Sand Flare...which ripped no boons.

 

Then low and behold at 0:10 you activate Trail of Anguish and Ghastly Breach, and your boon rips shoot up to 90...meaning you stripped 36 boons using those two skills. Ghastly Breech, since it can only contribute to at most 25 rips every 72/90 seconds...means that Trail at least stripped 16 boons here in this fight. if you actually used your skills in accordance with their values, you would be getting a lot more value from Trail of Anguish... It probably stripped a boon from everyone in that 20 man enemy squad, when they walked over your trail.

 

So I mean video's like this just illustrate the point of MY post...frankly they always do...because of how the information is reflected in the real world...or rather how the real world reflects the information...their both the same thing that's why its crazy when people completely dismiss mathematical analysis in a game that has numbers.

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684