Why are necros so weak. Is this a joke? Is Anet blind?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

16 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

So you think that having twice the damage coefficient means you’ll do twice the damage? Lol

 

Okay, @Lan Deathrider.5910  so apologies I was drunk last night when I wrote that comment

 

Ahem, so I went and just tested everything earlier this morning and basically we are both wrong, but you are more right than I am. The "real" equation for damage is this:

X = (Weapon Strength * Skill Coefficient * Power * (Damage Modifiers) * (1 + Sigils + Rune))/Armor

 

Where, sigils and Runes add with each other, while other damage modifiers  like traits and vulnerability(?) are multiplicative with each other

 

(confirmed) On a Indestructible golem :

X = (995-1100) * 1.13 * 3200 * 5.8 * 1.27 / 2597....  10,204 - 11,281 Damage

 

which would mean on a light armor target...

 

(unconfirmed) On a Light Armor Target

X = (995-1100) * 1.13 * 3200 * 5.8 * 1.27 / 1880 ...14,096 - 15,584 Damage

 

The above isn't actually the full damage equation because it doesn't have Damage Reduction Modifiers, which is another aspect that makes the topic a bit more complicated...i think that damage modifiers and damage reduction modifiers are both handled in the same procedure, and others believe it's handled after the division of armor, but ya anyway... It seems perfectly plausible to do 14k damage on a paper target in perfect conditions.

 

In my testing, there seemed to be that the average using an exploitation sigil instead of a compounding sigil, sitting between 8.6k damage and 10kdamage (rather than 9.5k - 10.5k which the calculation predicts), which would imply that there is some other components of the game that is treated additively and I have no idea what it would be....my hunch is that Vulnerability is perhaps additive too, but i would have to do more testing...like always there's no documentation on the wiki for what vulnerability is in the damage equation. 

 

To be frank with you, I've never personally SEEN a reaper able to hit 15k Auto's on a human target post feb... which leads me to believe the equation is STILL wrong...but for now, I guess just try and confirm those numbers...If you smack someone for 15k life reap in pvp on reaper post a picture or something.

Edited July 24, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Big strong 💪

Edited July 24, 2021 by Grand Marshal.4098

[Leonidrex.5649]

40 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Okay, @Lan Deathrider.5910  so apologies I was drunk last night when I wrote that comment

 

Ahem, so I went and just tested everything earlier this morning and basically we are both wrong, but you are more right than I am. The "real" equation for damage is this:

X = (Weapon Strength * Skill Coefficient * Power * (Damage Modifiers) * (1 + Sigils + Rune))/Armor

 

Where, sigils and Runes add with each other, while other damage modifiers  like traits and vulnerability(?) are multiplicative with each other

 

(confirmed) On a Indestructible golem :

X = (995-1100) * 1.13 * 3200 * 5.8 * 1.27 / 2597....  10,204 - 11,281 Damage

 

which would mean on a light armor target...

 

(unconfirmed) On a Light Armor Target

X = (995-1100) * 1.13 * 3200 * 5.8 * 1.27 / 1880 ...14,096 - 15,584 Damage

 

The above isn't actually the full damage equation because it doesn't have Damage Reduction Modifiers, which is another aspect that makes the topic a bit more complicated...i think that damage modifiers and damage reduction modifiers are both handled in the same procedure, and others believe it's handled after the division of armor, but ya anyway... It seems perfectly plausible to do 14k damage on a paper target in perfect conditions.

 

In my testing, there seemed to be that the average using an exploitation sigil instead of a compounding sigil, sitting between 8.6k damage and 10kdamage (rather than 9.5k - 10.5k which the calculation predicts), which would imply that there is some other components of the game that is treated additively and I have no idea what it would be....my hunch is that Vulnerability is perhaps additive too, but i would have to do more testing...like always there's no documentation on the wiki for what vulnerability is in the damage equation. 

 

To be frank with you, I've never personally SEEN a reaper able to hit 15k Auto's on a human target post feb... which leads me to believe the equation is STILL wrong...but for now, I guess just try and confirm those numbers...If you smack someone for 15k life reap in pvp on reaper post a picture or something.

some of the damage bonuses and reductions are addictive instead of multiplicative, which means that to get proper numbers you need to know everything from case to case.
Bot on berserker amulet, its not out of the ordinary to get hit for over 7k+, even without meme sigils/runes.
( I think sigils are addictive btw, might be runes too, I dont really know )

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

some of the damage bonuses and reductions are addictive instead of multiplicative, which means that to get proper numbers you need to know everything from case to case.
Bot on berserker amulet, its not out of the ordinary to get hit for over 7k+, even without meme sigils/runes.
( I think sigils are addictive btw, might be runes too, I dont really know )

Sigils and utilities according to the wiki. Runes, traits, and skill based modifiers are almost always multiplicative.

 

In theory, yeah you can hit a light armor glass target and istagib them still with certain builds.

[KrHome.1920]

Leap Reap deals like 600 damage on boon beast or bunker ele, so BUFF LIFE REAP!

 

Seriously: posting cherry picked scenarios is beyond stupid and won't become more usefull the more often you do it.

 

The average damage of Life Reap is around 3K in a typical PvP scenario. If you got hit by an 8k Life Reap, then you tried to PvP with your PvE build and ran into a heavily buffed opponent (both at once!).

 

So... in the last few weeks we had Backstab, True shot, Life Reap ... what's next? Maybe some ranger skill now?

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

6 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Leap Reap deals like 600 damage on boon beast, so BUFF LIFE REAP!

 

Seriously: posting cherry picked scenarios is beyond stupid and won't become more usefull the more often you do it.

 

The average damage of Life Reap is around 3K. If you got hit by an 8k Life Reap, then you tried to PvP with your PvE build and ran into a heavily buffed opponent (both at once!).

 

So... in the last few weeks we had Backstab, True shot, Life Reap ... what's next?

 

For sure it's definitely cherry picked...and this is my point earlier that in order to get hit by this kind of damage (15k reaps), you have to be a paper golem with no sense of autonomy, and reaper playing literally the most borked out setup which have constraints that are hard to reach without the effort of the entire team.

 

The argument here is that, because the theoretical maximum is so high, that BM necros (which don't take that many damage modifiers) hit for a lower, but still "sizeable" amount of damage, like 7k...8k reaps mentioned above...which of course isn't a true reflection of reality because the reason the equation scales so high is because of damage modifiers and their ability to multiply with each other. If BM necros don't have might, and don't have modifiers...then their damage is going to hit 3-5k reaps max if not less on paper targets...and you see this in practice.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Okay, @Lan Deathrider.5910  so apologies I was drunk last night when I wrote that comment

I thought you were being a little bit extra 😄 No worries. Friday is the day for it. I'm just glad I kept my peace last night.

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Ahem, so I went and just tested everything earlier this morning and basically we are both wrong, but you are more right than I am. The "real" equation for damage is this:

X = (Weapon Strength * Skill Coefficient * Power * (Damage Modifiers) * (1 + Sigils + Rune))/Armor

Yeah I pointed that out above. It being PvP it would be just Sigil that is additive as Runes are multiplicative, unless the wiki is wrong.

So its X = (WS * SC * POW * (DMG_MOD)*(1+SUM(Sigils))/Armor.

So if you have just one damage sigil then it you could treat it all as multiplicative, but a second damage sigil stacks additively with the first, then then stack multiplicatively with the rest of the mods. In regards to Life Slash vs Life Reap, you can divide Life Slash's damage by its coefficient and then multiply that number by the Life Reap Coefficient to get what Life Reap would have done under the same conditions, which would be about 12.7k given the Life Slash damage I got.

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Where, sigils and Runes add with each other, while other damage modifiers  like traits and vulnerability(?) are multiplicative with each other

 

(confirmed) On a Indestructible golem :

X = (995-1100) * 1.13 * 3200 * 5.8 * 1.27 / 2597....  10,204 - 11,281 Damage

 

which would mean on a light armor target...

 

(unconfirmed) On a Light Armor Target

X = (995-1100) * 1.13 * 3200 * 5.8 * 1.27 / 1880 ...14,096 - 15,584 Damage

 

The above isn't actually the full damage equation because it doesn't have Damage Reduction Modifiers, which is another aspect that makes the topic a bit more complicated...i think that damage modifiers and damage reduction modifiers are both handled in the same procedure, and others believe it's handled after the division of armor, but ya anyway... It seems perfectly plausible to do 14k damage on a paper target in perfect conditions.

True, but as well all seem to expect from the OP, there  probably wasn't any damage reduction involved.

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

In my testing, there seemed to be that the average using an exploitation sigil instead of a compounding sigil, sitting between 8.6k damage and 10kdamage (rather than 9.5k - 10.5k which the calculation predicts), which would imply that there is some other components of the game that is treated additively and I have no idea what it would be....my hunch is that Vulnerability is perhaps additive too, but i would have to do more testing...like always there's no documentation on the wiki for what vulnerability is in the damage equation. 

I found it a bit high as well, I used Sigil of Opportunity in my test and I think it may be doing 5% per movement impairing condition, but I don't care enough to confirm. That an there is a question of whether Compounding's effects are additive with itself or multiplicative (i.e. with 12 condis is it 12% more damage or is it 1.1268%)?

 

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

To be frank with you, I've never personally SEEN a reaper able to hit 15k Auto's on a human target post feb... which leads me to believe the equation is STILL wrong...but for now, I guess just try and confirm those numbers...If you smack someone for 15k life reap in pvp on reaper post a picture or something.

You can only get it as full glass cannon vs full paper with full might, full vuln, and every modifier proccing, while they are under 50% HP. Most players aren't going full glass, but it looks like by image in the OP  there were at least two there.

Now that we discussed this in the open I bet there will be more reports of obscene Life Reap numbers though lol.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I thought you were being a little bit extra 😄 No worries. Friday is the day for it. I'm just glad I kept my peace last night.

Yeah I pointed that out above. It being PvP it would be just Sigil that is additive as Runes are multiplicative, unless the wiki is wrong.

So its X = (WS * SC * POW * (DMG_MOD)*(1+SUM(Sigils))/Armor.

So if you have just one damage sigil then it you could treat it all as multiplicative, but a second damage sigil stacks additively with the first, then then stack multiplicatively with the rest of the mods. In regards to Life Slash vs Life Reap, you can divide Life Slash's damage by its coefficient and then multiply that number by the Life Reap Coefficient to get what Life Reap would have done under the same conditions, which would be about 12.7k given the Life Slash damage I got.

True, but as well all seem to expect from the OP, there  probably wasn't any damage reduction involved.

I found it a bit high as well, I used Sigil of Opportunity in my test and I think it may be doing 5% per movement impairing condition, but I don't care enough to confirm. That an there is a question of whether Compounding's effects are additive with itself or multiplicative (i.e. with 12 condis is it 12% more damage or is it 1.1268%)?

 

You can only get it as full glass cannon vs full paper with full might, full vuln, and every modifier proccing, while they are under 50% HP. Most players aren't going full glass, but it looks like by image in the OP  there were at least two there.

Now that we discussed this in the open I bet there will be more reports of obscene Life Reap numbers though lol.

 

So I spent a little more time doing some research, and according to a user Risen Howl: Critical Damage from the Ferocity stat, is Additive. 

 

Honestly, this business with damage modifiers is incredibly annoying and there is basically no information about it on the wiki...did ANYBODY test the game? Did nobody publish anything?

 

I'm gonna do a test to see if Ferocity is additive or multiplicative and squash this right now.

 

Edit: Alright... it took some time...put i see the problem with what is happening here. I'm going to organize what i have into results we can read later on....but what i believe, is that there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the damage equation.

 

In this equation: X = (Weapon Strength * Skill Coefficient * Power * (Damage Modifiers) * (1 + Sigils + Rune))/Armor

 

Notice that there is a 1+ term there. The reason that is even there, is because if you were to multiply the equation by anything less than 1, you will get nonsense answers where if you had "no sigils or runes" you would do 0 damage...which of course is complete nonsense, so that's why that guy from the wikipedia had it in there to begin with...

 

But the problem is that this shouldn't be the proper form of the equation...because when you think about critical damage...100% critical damage is just regular non critical damage....and you ALWAYS do the 100% of your regular damage. So 100% critical damage is ALWAYS inherent in the equation, and this is the +1 term...or in essence what we've been doing here is taking numbers like 260% critical damage, and stacking it with an extra 100% modifier term (in the form of a +1 term) and that boosts the crap out of the numbers.

 

In other words, the equation should look something like this :

 

X = (Weapon Strength * Skill Coefficient * (Power + Critical Damage Modifiers above 100% ) * (Damage Modifiers) * (Sigils + Rune)/Armor

 

This way, when you add critical damage, we aren't adding an extra 100% damage to the equation which is what you would consider "base damage." ... so critical damage is not a 260% modifier...it's an 160% modifier because 100% damage is "base" damage...by removing that +1 we remove a lot of issues and this allows us to just use the actual number : 260% critical damage modifier in the equation, which is actually mentioned non explicitly in the wiki.

 

The above is the only way to make sense of the results i was getting. What is for sure is that all the calculations made in this whole conversation is wrong and should probably be addressed...that the numbers are way to big.

Edited July 25, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

So I spent a little more time doing some research, and according to a user Risen Howl: Critical Damage from the Ferocity stat, is Additive. 

 

Honestly, this business with damage modifiers is incredibly annoying and there is basically no information about it on the wiki...did ANYBODY test the game? Did nobody publish anything?

 

I'm gonna do a test to see if Ferocity is additive or multiplicative and squash this right now.

 

Edit: Alright... it took some time...put i see the problem with what is happening here. I'm going to organize what i have into results we can read later on....but what i believe, is that there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the damage equation.

 

In this equation: X = (Weapon Strength * Skill Coefficient * Power * (Damage Modifiers) * (1 + Sigils + Rune))/Armor

 

Notice that there is a 1+ term there. The reason that is even there, is because if you were to multiply the equation by anything less than 1, you will get nonsense answers where if you had "no sigils or runes" you would do 0 damage...which of course is complete nonsense, so that's why that guy from the wikipedia had it in there to begin with...

 

But the problem is that this shouldn't be the proper form of the equation...because when you think about critical damage...100% critical damage is just regular non critical damage....and you ALWAYS do the 100% of your regular damage. So 100% critical damage is ALWAYS inherent in the equation, and this is the +1 term...or in essence what we've been doing here is taking numbers like 260% critical damage, and stacking it with an extra 100% modifier term (in the form of a +1 term) and that boosts the crap out of the numbers.

 

In other words, the equation should look something like this :

 

X = (Weapon Strength * Skill Coefficient * (Power + Critical Damage Modifiers above 100% ) * (Damage Modifiers) * (Sigils + Rune)/Armor

 

This way, when you add critical damage, we aren't adding an extra 100% damage to the equation which is what you would consider "base damage." ... so critical damage is not a 260% modifier...it's an 160% modifier because 100% damage is "base" damage...by removing that +1 we remove a lot of issues and this allows us to just use the actual number : 260% critical damage modifier in the equation, which is actually mentioned non explicitly in the wiki.

 

The above is the only way to make sense of the results i was getting. What is for sure is that all the calculations made in this whole conversation is wrong and should probably be addressed...that the numbers are way to big.

Critical damage modifiers are additive with themselves and are then multiplicative with damage and other modifiers.

 

x265% critical damage is the same as 1+1.65.

 

 A critical hit will will be damage done x 2.65, which is the same as damage done x ( 1 + 1.65).

Edited July 25, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Critical damage modifiers are additive with themselves and are then multiplicative with damage and other modifiers.

 

x265% critical damage is the same as 1+1.65.

 

 A critical hit will will be damage done x 2.65, which is the same as damage done x ( 1 + 1.65).

right ya exactly, just like sigils and runes so they all effectively belong in the same additive term together. In the wiki they treat critical damage as a coupling with power to make it “effective power” or rather just a single term. So (power*2.65) is the same as (1+1.65) when grouped with sigils and runes can also be viewed as (power*2.65+.05+.05+.10) and THEN once you get that term it becomes “multiplicative” with the rest of the equation.
…

 

again in other words, having a rune 10% rune with two 5% sigils is basically equivalent to just having 20% more critical damage (going from 2.65 to 2.85) and that number; 2.85 is then used to multiply with other multipliers

Edited July 25, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

25 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

right ya exactly, just like sigils and runes so they all effectively belong in the same additive term together. In the wiki they treat critical damage as a coupling with power to make it “effective power” or rather just a single term. So (power*2.65) is the same as (1+1.65) when grouped with sigils and runes can also be viewed as (power*2.65+.05+.05+.10) and THEN once you get that term it becomes “multiplicative” with the rest of the equation.
…

 

again in other words, having a rune 10% rune with two 5% sigils is basically equivalent to just having 20% more critical damage (going from 2.65 to 2.85) and that number; 2.85 is then used to multiply with other multipliers

Again, runes aren't additive, they are multiplicative.

From the wiki:

"The majority of damage multipliers combine in a multiplicative fashion rather than additive; i.e. they stack on top of each other instead of being calculated separately. However, sigils and some effects from utility skills stack additively with each other. For example, a Superior Sigil of Force (5%), a slaying Sigil (3%), a 10% trait, a 20% trait and the (6) bonus of the Superior Rune of the Scholar (5%) combine for a final damage bonus of (1 + 0.05 + 0.03) * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.05 = 1.49688 or approximately 49.7%."

Things like sigil of compounding are  questionable though. Is it's own bonus additive with itself, or multiplicative? I'm inclined to think it is multiplicative with itself, i.e. 1.01^(number of conditions), which is then added to other sigil modifiers.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

55 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Again, runes aren't additive, they are multiplicative.

 

According to the people I talked to (I already mentioned who they are) said the runes are additive.

 

ahem but that's gonna depend on who you want to believe.

 

Aside from all this stuff about the damage equation...i think that like Krhome said...looking at this damage in a vacuum business especially if the damage equation is as multiplicative as it is, means that damage if you were to graph it on a chart looks like an exponential...in that the less modifiers you have, you'll have exponentially less damage than if you didn't have those modifiers.

 

Taking damage away from Reaper, would make all their other builds impossible to use...and I think that if you were to take that away it would be impossible to kill scourges right now. Asking for nerfs without a proper understanding of the relationship going on here in this equation would lead to "unforeseen consequences"

Edited July 25, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Quadox.7834]

lmao i got out the popcorn watching you guys failing to calculate kitten in this game

Edited July 25, 2021 by Quadox.7834