Suggestion: Conditions

[Dyfinz.2348]

I am not certain if these ideas could be split for pvp or applied across the board, but I believe more likely they should be split.

1. Any damage over time condition has a 3-5 stack max on a player for each condition.
2. Any player can have a maximum of x stacks of all total conditions summed.
3. Damage for conditions are lowered significantly but with secondary affects such as:
   • Burning will remove a boon every 2 seconds
   • Poison reduces boon duration and/or lowers healing by 50%
   • Confusion adds a x-second cd to any skill the affected uses (not taking away damage bonus for skill use...just lower)
   • Bleeding reduces power and condition damage...kind of like an anti-might
   • Torment ?....not sure lol...cause fear every 10 seconds? instead of damage buff? lmao

The damage is lowered for conditions, but bar control is enhanced.

Resistance should no longer be a boon, but a shorter lasting non-removable skill or effect...with a cap of 3 conditions.

Condition clear skills remove max of 3 conditions per any skill or effect.

I can see a new variety of hybrid builds with concepts like these.....but I am just one brain....skritt power!

[Maugetarr.6823]

I'm just going to repost my thoughts on it from the other condi thread up right now. Basically, I see the total damage values on most condition attacks as fine, but they burst slightly too hard. So my idea is to not change them mechanically, just extend the ramp time.

For example:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArfWnE9C12gl3Ae9Cs9iljBTvtOXrrULhnwsKqnttCAA-jpRHQBA4BA4vyAI8EAYm9HEwhAAgHBAA

(this was taken directly from metabattle. Sorry if it's not optimal or current. I'm not trying to knock necromancer here either, just wanted realistic numbers)

The first hit on scepter auto does 841 damage over 7 seconds. Each stack of each bleed tick is ~119 damage. I think that the damage is fine, but some abilities (not necessarily this singular one) can burst a little too much. So if each tick were 2/3 the current damage, but 3/2 the current duration the ramp up time would be slower, but overall it would still be the same damage.

Math using blood curse as an example.

Currently:(119 bleed dps) × (7 seconds) = 833 damage

Proposed:(79 bleed dps) × (10.5 seconds) = 830 damage

(difference in damage comes from rounding)

If the ramp is too slow or the burst still too high, they can play around with the duration and dps values more. I don't think the number of stacks in each skill would need to be changed beyond this.

[saerni.2584]

Not another one...

[Vertep.2498]

I will have better and easier idea for condis...something like softcaps, max 5 stacks of same condi will deal 100% of this damage to player, next 5 stack will deal 20% less damage and next 5 stacks will deal 50% less base damage etc.

so for this example if 1 stack is dealing 250 damage then fist 5 stacks will deal full 1250 damage, next 5 stacks instad of 250 per stack will be 200, so 1250 base + 1000and next 5 stacks instead of 250 will deal 125 per stack so 1250 + 1000 + 625 = 2725 damage per 15 stacks of single condi instaad of 3750

[musu.9205]

your suggest is even worse than current condition .

[Vertep.2498]

we have today many...to many threads about condis how to broken overpowered it is etc and to this I have question to you..what do you think why is no any threads about power how its to op etc? only we can see threads about DE 1hit DJ shots but its just single skill in overall this game for elite spec and nobody is complaing about power, everyone complain about condi how it is new better meta in almost every possible aspect better than power

action equals reactioncondi bursting better than power? you have reaction on forums in as big storm of forum about these condis while power is far far away from any complaining

[Dyfinz.2348]

@musu.9205 said:your suggest is even worse than current condition .

How?

[Dyfinz.2348]

@Vertep.2498 said:we have today many...to many threads about condis how to broken overpowered it is etc and to this I have question to you..what do you think why is no any threads about power how its to op etc? only we can see threads about DE 1hit DJ shots but its just single skill in overall this game for elite spec and nobody is complaing about power, everyone complain about condi how it is new better meta in almost every possible aspect better than power

action equals reactioncondi bursting better than power? you have reaction on forums in as big storm of forum about these condis while power is far far away from any complaining

If players want to keep playing spammable condition builds, I believe the forums would be filled with how refreshing these skill sets are....but as you pointed out, there are many complaint. Is armor ignoring damage out bursting armor mitigated damage a good thing? How is it a good thing?

I am not claiming my suggestion is the fix, but I think it would change how PVP is in a way...maybe not a good one. But a horde of feedback given to it like the current state of affairs would indicate something.

I know...if I don't like it....don't play the game, or quit PVP. Perhaps I will....

[OriOri.8724]

Remove resistance from the game, or at least bring it in line to where it should be. Rebalance conditions against that. As it is now though, they HAVE to be bursty because so many classes can just pop resistance out and then ignore your condi stacks entirely. If they aren't bursty, then you don't do any damage before the resistance is popped, and your entire burst is then meaningless.

[Vertep.2498]

@Dyfinz.2348 said:

@Vertep.2498 said:we have today many...to many threads about condis how to broken overpowered it is etc and to this I have question to you..what do you think why is

no any

threads about power how its to op etc? only we can see threads about DE 1hit DJ shots but its just single skill in overall this game for elite spec and nobody is complaing about power, everyone complain about condi how it is new better meta in almost every possible aspect better than power

action equals reactioncondi bursting better than power? you have reaction on forums in as big storm of forum about these condis while power is far far away from any complaining

If players want to keep playing spammable condition builds, I believe the forums would be filled with how refreshing these skill sets are....but as you pointed out, there are many complaint. Is armor ignoring damage out bursting armor mitigated damage a good thing? How is it a good thing?

I am not claiming my suggestion is the fix, but I think it would change how PVP is in a way...maybe not a good one. But a horde of feedback given to it like the current state of affairs would indicate something.

I know...if I don't like it....don't play the game, or quit PVP. Perhaps I will....

sorry for this misunderstanding in this quote, in this my post I just didnt tag @musu.9205 idk why, at all Im not against your suggestions as its very bad, its always another point to get rid of these condis :)

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@Vertep.2498 said:what do you think why is no any threads about power how its to op etc? only we can see threads about DE 1hit DJ shots but its just single skill in overall this game for elite spec and nobody is complaing about power, everyone complain about condi how it is new better meta in almost every possible aspect better than powerPlenty of people complain about power builds. Dragonhunters were public enemy number 1 for like a year and a half on here. Also I'm pretty sure most spellbreakers are power builds and people won't shut up about them.

The other thing is that people genuinely get outraged about being killed by conditions, no matter how or why it happened, and they don't do that with power builds most of the time. It's like they believe conditions don't have the right to hurt them or something, it's real weird.

[Vertep.2498]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@Vertep.2498 said:what do you think why is

no any

threads about power how its to op etc? only we can see threads about DE 1hit DJ shots but its just single skill in overall this game for elite spec and nobody is complaing about power, everyone complain about condi how it is new better meta in almost every possible aspect better than powerPlenty of people complain about power builds. Dragonhunters were public enemy number 1 for like a year and a half on here. Also I'm pretty sure most spellbreakers are power builds and people won't shut up about them.

The other thing is that people genuinely get outraged about being killed by conditions, no matter how or why it happened, and they don't do that with power builds most of the time. It's like they believe conditions don't have the

right

to hurt them or something, it's real weird.

about dragonhunters...as for now do we see any threads about them? nope because those new condis overshadowed this with just DE prepared DJ

spellbreaker damage isnt that big probem as his spammable block, invulnerable, full counter etc at once, we barely can damage to him into health, 90% of time fith against them its just block, block block, invuln, invuln, invuln and 0, 0, 0...very hard to deal damage into them

[Swagg.9236]

@musu.9205 said:your suggest is even worse than current condition .

It's honestly on the right track to making conditions into something other than just an unneeded, extra source of untyped "damage" aside from the untyped damage that everyone has already always dealt through berserker stat builds.

[Swagg.9236]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@Vertep.2498 said:what do you think why is

no any

threads about power how its to op etc? only we can see threads about DE 1hit DJ shots but its just single skill in overall this game for elite spec and nobody is complaing about power, everyone complain about condi how it is new better meta in almost every possible aspect better than powerPlenty of people complain about power builds. Dragonhunters were public enemy number 1 for like a year and a half on here. Also I'm pretty sure most spellbreakers are power builds and people won't shut up about them.

The other thing is that people genuinely get outraged about being killed by conditions, no matter how or why it happened, and they don't do that with power builds most of the time. It's like they believe conditions don't have the

right

to hurt them or something, it's real weird.

That's because no self-respecting, non-turn-based game with free-form movement lets a DoT mechanic score consistent kills, especially when the game already has an established, global means of inflicting damage. Gw2 conditions are an unnatural gameplay aberration. I'm not arguing that power isn't also overturned (which, by the way, isn't an argument for making condis overturned as well), but condis just aren't properly designed if all they have ever done is compete with the game's already-established core mechanic which governs damage calculation. It's an incomplete mechanic with no true, unique purpose.

[musu.9205]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@musu.9205 said:your suggest is even worse than current condition .

It's honestly on the right track to making conditions into something other than just an unneeded, extra source of untyped "damage" aside from the untyped damage that everyone has already always dealt through berserker stat builds.

that's more to do with most condi builds apply at least 3 dmg conditions at once with few cover condition .and op's suggestion will make confusion too strong in pvp . power mesmer or power thief could easily apply confusion for this new effect .fear on torment with an icd is just plain wrong . how a player could be able to track that in a fight ? and how server counts that 10s icd ? every source or everytime the dmg ticks ?burn removes boon every 2s ... do we really need to discuss how op this is ?

anet changed condition mostly due to pve reasons .the biggest problem came from that is burn and poison . before change , burn was more like bonus burst dmg for some power builds on guard or ele .poison was pure utility condition to reduce heal which is absolutely useless in pve .

for this two anet either has to lower their dmg in pvp or reduce the stack on skills which apply those condition . until anet could actually makes better pve content which requires those utility usage , they will stay as dmg condition .

confusion was meant to punish player for blindly using ability . dmg on skill usage works just fine they may need to change it back to only do damage when players use skill but with higher dmg .

let's look at current condition type .we could say there are 3 types of condition

1. pure dmg : burn , bleed
2. utility : poison confusion , torment . they are meant to prevent certain action .
3. soft cc : cripple chill blind

problem is not just condition damage is too high1.utility condition failed their purpose , their dmg is either too high if you don't clean it right away you are dead no matter what you do ,or too little ,your single 10 stack of torment will get cleansed by random condition removal auto proc by most classes.they should be harder to cleanse and do higher dmg to target when they take certain action but far less dmg when they don't do certain things .2.there are many many soft cc loaded on new spec skills like candy . they will cover the real dmg condition easily without trying .best way to do this is seperate the cleanse . some will only remove dmg condition. some will only remove soft cc condition .this way also limited build choice . you can still build a counter but you cant counter anything .3.burn and poison stack are so high and burst dmg is so fast . change skills that apply burn or poison . make them longer duration but lower stack .4.boon corruption and resistance should be more limited as well .5.condition application traits should be reworked , anything like engi IP should be gone . high dmg condition should be tied to a certain skill not a skill type . or make them more situational . necro is biggest problem and it may require a lot of its skill reworked .

6. rework resistance to 1 stack = 15% condition dmg reduce , capped at 5 stack . and no class should maintain 5 stack of resistance by themselves unless invest into boon duration .also rework all those auto condition removal traits and condition dmg reduce traits with new resistance .
7. rework all condition weapon .most of them are not deadly , that forces most condition builds to run those condition traits to even have enough dmg.since condition from traits will be very limited . condition weapon should be reworked . basically shift dmg from traits to weapon . necro scepter AA should be slightly nerfed .move dmg to other ability . and they really need to make more skill animation for necro . start from their staff mark skills . it's pretty hard to tell what they are casting or even impossible . therefore less counter play .
8. mesmer needs a rework .

[Crinn.7864]

@Dyfinz.2348 said:Is armor ignoring damage out bursting armor mitigated damage a good thing? How is it a good thing?

You do realize that the damage of power skills are balanced around the target having armor right? Condi damage is likewise balanced around not being mitigated by armor.

Against a target with 0 armor rating, power builds would massively out damage even the strongest condi builds by large margins.

[Dyfinz.2348]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Dyfinz.2348 said:Is armor ignoring damage out bursting armor mitigated damage a good thing? How is it a good thing?

You do realize that the damage of power skills are balanced around the target having armor right? Condi damage is likewise balanced around not being mitigated by armor.

Against a target with 0 armor rating, power builds would massively out damage even the strongest condi builds by large margins.

I disagree, it is not "likewise balanced".

[Dyfinz.2348]

@musu.9205 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@musu.9205 said:your suggest is even worse than current condition .

It's honestly on the right track to making conditions into something other than just an unneeded, extra source of untyped "damage" aside from the untyped damage that everyone has already always dealt through berserker stat builds.

that's more to do with most condi builds apply at least 3 dmg conditions at once with few cover condition .and op's suggestion will make confusion too strong in pvp . power mesmer or power thief could easily apply confusion for this new effect .fear on torment with an icd is just plain wrong . how a player could be able to track that in a fight ? and how server counts that 10s icd ? every source or everytime the dmg ticks ?burn removes boon every 2s ... do we really need to discuss how op this is ?

anet changed condition mostly due to pve reasons .the biggest problem came from that is burn and poison . before change , burn was more like bonus burst dmg for some power builds on guard or ele .poison was pure utility condition to reduce heal which is absolutely useless in pve .

for this two anet either has to lower their dmg in pvp or reduce the stack on skills which apply those condition . until anet could actually makes better pve content which requires those utility usage , they will stay as dmg condition .

confusion was meant to punish player for blindly using ability . dmg on skill usage works just fine they may need to change it back to only do damage when players use skill but with higher dmg .

let's look at current condition type .we could say there are 3 types of condition

1. pure dmg : burn , bleed
2. utility : poison confusion , torment . they are meant to prevent certain action .
3. soft cc : cripple chill blind

problem is not just condition damage is too high1.utility condition failed their purpose , their dmg is either too high if you don't clean it right away you are dead no matter what you do ,or too little ,your single 10 stack of torment will get cleansed by random condition removal auto proc by most classes.they should be harder to cleanse and do higher dmg to target when they take certain action but far less dmg when they don't do certain things .2.there are many many soft cc loaded on new spec skills like candy . they will cover the real dmg condition easily without trying .best way to do this is seperate the cleanse . some will only remove dmg condition. some will only remove soft cc condition .this way also limited build choice . you can still build a counter but you cant counter anything .3.burn and poison stack are so high and burst dmg is so fast . change skills that apply burn or poison . make them longer duration but lower stack .4.boon corruption and resistance should be more limited as well .5.condition application traits should be reworked , anything like engi IP should be gone . high dmg condition should be tied to a certain skill not a skill type . or make them more situational . necro is biggest problem and it may require a lot of its skill reworked .

6. rework resistance to 1 stack = 15% condition dmg reduce , capped at 5 stack . and no class should maintain 5 stack of resistance by themselves unless invest into boon duration .also rework all those auto condition removal traits and condition dmg reduce traits with new resistance .
7. rework all condition weapon .most of them are not deadly , that forces most condition builds to run those condition traits to even have enough dmg.since condition from traits will be very limited . condition weapon should be reworked . basically shift dmg from traits to weapon . necro scepter AA should be slightly nerfed .move dmg to other ability . and they really need to make more skill animation for necro . start from their staff mark skills . it's pretty hard to tell what they are casting or even impossible . therefore less counter play .
8. mesmer needs a rework .

The ideas i put forth are just ideas. I can not tell if something is OP or not by just considering it; I have to see it in action.The point was to turn conditions into punishments and control, and not a primary burst tool.My ideas are garbage, but lettuce get the thinking matter activated, debate, discuss, and grow some feasible ideas. Perhaps if the Anet gods are listening or looking in they may receive some inspiration.

I like that you put ideas out there, surely better than my own. Thank you.

[Zoltreez.6435]

@saerni.2584 said:Not another one...

there would not be another one if devs would finally start to fix their game all ready.....

[Reaper Alim.4176]

@Zoltreez.6435 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Not another one...

there would not be another one if devs would finally start to fix their game all ready.....

But PvE is not in need of fixing so all is well. Far as the PvE and WvW threads go. They can mostly be ignored.

[Zoltreez.6435]

@Reaper Alim.4176 said:

@Zoltreez.6435 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Not another one...

there would not be another one if devs would finally start to fix their game all ready.....

But PvE is not in need of fixing so all is well.

devs say that to themselves every time they go to sleep...

[Ashgar.3024]

I don't think capping condis is the way to go, they should become threatening over a long fight, its the whole idea behind the design.

The problem with them is simply some ablities stacking ridiculous amounts of time with no thoughts or setup required. A lot of power builds do less direct damage than some condi builds now, its what needs fixing. And its not rocket science to know where that problem is from, it wasn't an issue before PoF (as annoying as pre-PoF Condi Thief was, they weren't instantly bursting anyone down).

[Ithilwen.1529]

The OP's suggestions are generally the way it was before condi was uncapped. Mesmer was basically out of the game. Other classes were as well. Returning to capped condis would tilt balance so far that it might not recover.

[Ithilwen.1529]

In addition, most condi is cleared passively or by teammates before it becomes an issue. The reality in the current game is that there is so much cleanse and immunity that only a condition burst will do usable damage.

Also, who has time to let condi tick? I can tell you from grim experience that if you're waiting for condi to happen, you'll be dead long before the reward comes. There is entirely too much damage and burst in the game to wait several seconds for conditions to take effect.

[Vertep.2498]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:The reality in the current game is that there is so much cleanse and immunity that only a condition burst will do usable damage.

and it all was added because condi got to much overpower before, 1st was to much condi as action and then to reaction we got more cleanse etc which is still very useless against few condi classes excluding just warrior spam immune to all damage with guard able to spam cleanse while rest classes is mostly unarmed in def against this